Sarah Mlynowski, Best-Selling Author of Young Adult Series "Upside Magic" and "Whatever After"
[0:00]Hi, I'm Zibi Owens, and this is Mom's Don't Have Time to Read Books.
[0:15]As a mom of four kids in New York City and a writer myself, I know all too well how short
[0:19]everyone is on time, so I'm here to help.
[0:21]I'm going to interview authors and writers of all types about their work, especially as
[0:25]it relates to parenting and family issues.
[0:28]Hopefully you can listen while doing 8 million other things, and fall in love with these
[0:31]talented scribes and their fantastic books, essays, and songs like I have.
[0:35]Plus get some tips on surviving parenthood.
[0:37]For more about me, you can check out my essays at zibiowens.com.
[0:42]Today's episode of Mom's Don't Have Time to Read Books is sponsored by Chloe's Fruit,
[0:46]the cool way to eat fruit.
[0:47]You can check them out at Chloe'sfruit.com.
[0:50]Really excited to be with Sarah Malnowski today.
[0:53]Sarah is an amazingly prolific best-selling young adult, middle-grade novelist.
[0:57]She was born in Canada and now lives here in New York City.
[1:00]For anyone listening with school-aged children, you might have heard a lot about Abby and
[1:03]Jonah's adventures.
[1:04]Sarah is the author of the addictive, whatever after-book series.
[1:08]The latest release, which I just finished with my daughter, is called Two Peas in a Pod.
[1:12]Sarah also writes the upside-down magic series about wonky magicians, who are flickers,
[1:16]flares, and flexors, and just can't seem to get there magic right.
[1:19]As if that weren't enough, Sarah has written a magic and Manhattan series for teens, which
[1:23]started with a book called Bros and Broomsticks, and she has written a few late teenage
[1:27]books like 10 Things We Did and probably shouldn't have, which I can't put down even
[1:31]though I'm not a teenager.
[1:33]And a few adults for, um, a few adult novels for adults as well, not adult nals.
[1:38]In her spare time when she's not on a book tour, Sarah goes to schools and gives 45-minute
[1:43]presentations that inspire kids to write.
[1:46]And she's a wife and a mom herself.
[1:48]Welcome to Sarah.
[1:49]Thank you for having me.
[1:51]Um, okay, your bio isn't saying.
[1:53]It took me 20 minutes to count up all the books, you've written on your website, I counted
[1:58]35.
[1:59]That's right.
[2:00]That seems about right.
[2:01]Now and when are you writing all of these books?
[2:04]Um, I'm writing for me as a full-time job.
[2:07]So I'm in the office every day from nine to five, and I'm working on books and I'm writing
[2:12]and I'm producing.
[2:13]I've been doing that for probably since the year 2000 now, so that's how I've produced
[2:20]so many books.
[2:21]Okay.
[2:22]So 18 years of 35.
[2:23]So two a year.
[2:24]Yeah.
[2:25]About two to three a year.
[2:27]When I wrote adult, which is what I started off doing, I was, I started with one book
[2:30]year.
[2:32]And then now that I write for middle grade readers, they're much, much shorter, so I could
[2:36]produce more.
[2:37]So I probably now write between three and four a year.
[2:41]Amazing.
[2:42]Thank you.
[2:44]And on your website, in your FAQs, which were fantastic.
[2:47]I also do tell that I was like, I don't even need to ask her anything today.
[2:50]I can just read this website.
[2:53]You see, you mostly write from your desk at home because you don't want to be distracted.
[2:56]Does that, is that what you do?
[2:58]Clearly, I need to update my FAQs because I have an office now.
[3:02]I've had an office for the past probably a year and a half.
[3:07]And it's about 20 blocks from my apartment and I walk there and I do like a little bit
[3:12]of a closed door situation so I could focus on the writing, but so much of my day is not
[3:19]just writing.
[3:20]It's also changing my FAQs, hopefully, or doing promotion stuff so there's so many different
[3:26]things that I do all day.
[3:27]But I do try to get a certain amount of words written every day.
[3:30]Do you have a word goal?
[3:32]My goal when I'm actually doing the writing is probably about 2,000 words.
[3:37]But I also, I'm a heavy outliner.
[3:39]So before I even start a project, I probably write about a 20 to 30 page outline.
[3:44]I'm break up the book by chapter by chapter.
[3:47]So I know exactly what's going to happen.
[3:49]And that's where I do most of my work.
[3:51]So the one I'm writing the first draft, I'm almost on autopilot.
[3:54]Like I just kind of get in there and I know what's going to happen.
[3:57]So I never waste time with writer's block because I always know what's going to happen
[4:00]next.
[4:01]Do you ever have outline block?
[4:02]No.
[4:03]I don't find outlines that hard.
[4:04]So maybe because I divide it up, like that, I really don't.
[4:08]I just get in there and I work on the outline and I play with things.
[4:11]It seems less scary for me when it's just in an outline stage because I know the outline
[4:15]doesn't have to be perfect.
[4:16]The first I have to just be a first draft and then I first draft of an outline and then
[4:21]I flesh it out.
[4:22]So really I, the way I've written so many books is I make really manageable walls for myself.
[4:27]I never sit down and think, okay, today I have to write a full book.
[4:30]It's always, today I have to work on, you know, a page of the outline and figure out
[4:34]the first three chapters in the book.
[4:37]And then once I've done the whole outline and I usually send it to my editor to approve
[4:41]it, then I, you know, go in and I'll say, today I'm going to write one chapter of the
[4:45]first draft.
[4:46]So I really, really set small goals for myself.
[4:49]That's awesome.
[4:50]Actually, I'm interviewing tomorrow.
[4:51]Charles Duhig, who just wrote a book on how to be productive and stuff like that.
[4:55]What do you say?
[4:56]We're on that later, so we do it.
[5:00]And when you sit down to write the outline, you already have the general idea of what
[5:02]you want the book to be in your head.
[5:04]Absolutely.
[5:05]So I always have the concept in the beginning.
[5:08]So for the whatever after series, I'll figure out, first I'll say, I'll think, you know,
[5:12]what very kale am I going to do?
[5:14]What am I in the mess up?
[5:15]And then I usually have a scene in my head kind of like a set piece of what is, how
[5:19]they twist the story.
[5:20]So in this series, Abby and her brother, Jonah, fall into different fairy tales and every
[5:25]book they fall into another one and then they mess it up somehow in some pivotal moment
[5:30]of the story.
[5:31]So in the new one in two piece and a pod, Abby goes into the story of the princess
[5:38]and the pea and she doesn't know she's in the princess that he right away and she's
[5:42]offered to sleep, you know, to sleep over at this palace and there are a hundred mattresses
[5:47]and she realizes that she's in that story.
[5:50]But then of course when she climbs on to a bed of a hundred mattresses, she cannot fall
[5:54]asleep because she's terrified of rolling over as any human child would be.
[5:59]So I had that image in my head of just lying in bed on a hundred mattresses being terrified
[6:04]and not being able to sleep on that.
[6:06]And then of course because she can't fall asleep, they think she's the princess the
[6:09]next day.
[6:10]So I always have that one scene in my head and then I'll go from there.
[6:15]I'll think about like also what I want to change in the original fairy tale.
[6:18]So once I have those two points, I'm able to weave the story together.
[6:21]I love how Jonah was like, why are you more afraid to fall up high as download?
[6:26]You never fall out of your bed normally.
[6:27]It's pretty exciting.
[6:28]I was like, true, but I would still be terrified.
[6:32]Yeah.
[6:33]No, I love how you have everybody go back in time and change things.
[6:35]It's like, Bill and Ted's adventure, back to the future where you're like, no, no, you
[6:39]know, everything.
[6:40]Yeah, it's for sure.
[6:42]So once with all the magic in all your books, so you have obviously the whatever after
[6:47]we change fairy tales, the upside down magic series, which my son, I couldn't even read
[6:51]your latest book because he grabbed it from my hands.
[6:53]Oh, I'm excited to read it and like wouldn't put it down.
[6:57]Which obviously, you know, so many kids are just obsessed with those series and so many
[7:01]different ways.
[7:03]How did you start spinning magic through all these different books?
[7:07]It's like magic is its own character.
[7:08]Well, you know, it's interesting because my first four books were for adults and they
[7:13]had no magic.
[7:14]They were very realistic fiction.
[7:15]They were in the chick lit genre that was back in the 2000s and then I had this idea
[7:22]for a magic series.
[7:24]I wanted to write about a girl who finds out that her little sister is a witch and
[7:27]that she is not.
[7:28]And I just have that small idea and I thought, oh, you know, magic is kind of fun.
[7:33]If I, especially if I said it in a real world with just a twist of magic.
[7:37]So that's why I started playing with magic and my writing and then, yeah, it's built
[7:42]up.
[7:43]Every book, every series I write has more and more magic, whatever, after it's completely
[7:46]in the fairy tale world.
[7:48]So there's tons of magic and I've said, oh, magic is a series set in magic school.
[7:53]So I definitely have increased the magic of my novels, but I didn't necessarily set out
[7:59]to do that.
[8:00]It just kind of happened a little by little.
[8:02]Do you think that the characters and the absolute magic could sort of take on the Harry
[8:05]Potter?
[8:07]I think, I think they would probably lose in the whole, the whole thing about us and
[8:13]no magic is that the kids are, it's about a series where, it's a world where everyone
[8:18]gets magic powers when he or she turns 10.
[8:21]But nor the main character, her magic is a little bit wonky, it's upside down.
[8:25]So she's a flexor, which means she can turn into different animals, but because her
[8:29]magic is wonky, she instead of turning into a cat, she turns into a kitten with a little
[8:34]bit of dragon in it.
[8:35]So she's a, her magic is wonky, so she's sent to a school and to be in a class with
[8:41]other kids who also have upside down magic.
[8:43]So these kids in her class are all a bit wonky, their magic is all a little bit off.
[8:48]And I think that's what really inspired us to write that net story, and I say ask because
[8:52]I co-write that series with two of my good friends who are also novelists, Emily Jenkins
[8:57]and Lauren Meyerfall.
[8:58]And we really wanted to write a series where, you know, what if you get to go to
[9:02]magic school, but then you discover that your magic is not as great as everyone else's,
[9:06]or it doesn't work in the same way.
[9:09]And, you know, we wanted to write about the kid who has magic, but their magic is not
[9:12]the best.
[9:13]And what does that mean?
[9:15]And so that's really, that's why I think they may have some problems against that.
[9:19]I love the image of one of the boys, like hitting the roof repeatedly of this whole bus,
[9:26]because his magic makes him like have to fly up or something.
[9:29]Yes.
[9:30]Yes.
[9:32]That's funny.
[9:34]So your teen fiction is also amazing.
[9:36]I feel like your Judy Bloom meets Sophie Kannell as you're back up there, just talking
[9:40]about your voices, like just super relatable and spot on.
[9:45]But your way out of your teens, no offense, I feel like I feel like we're like the same
[9:49]nature.
[9:50]Yeah.
[9:51]Yeah.
[9:52]How do you write so well from that advantage point when you're not in it?
[9:55]Do you go out and talk to teens to pick up on how they speak or what social media they
[9:59]use?
[10:00]relevant, especially with such a hard to please
[10:00]Like, how do you see when-
[10:02]in fuller audience.
[10:03]I mean, I do find it more challenging the older I get.
[10:06]I'll be honest, when I started off writing,
[10:07]I was in my 20s and it was much easier for me
[10:10]to channel that teenage voice.
[10:12]But I still try, I just try to,
[10:15]in my head be still the 17-year-old that I was
[10:19]and try to write about those emotions
[10:20]because slang and everything is gonna change every year,
[10:23]but angst is angst and the emotions are constant.
[10:26]So that's really what I try to tap into
[10:29]when I'm writing for teens.
[10:30]I do definitely read a lot of social media
[10:33]and just try to make sure that I stay current,
[10:35]but you don't wanna stay too current
[10:37]when you're writing for teens in terms of the language
[10:39]because that comes in and out.
[10:41]And I wrote browse and broomsticks,
[10:43]my first team book over a decade ago,
[10:46]and I remember talking about one song,
[10:48]there's a Britney Spears song that no one listens
[10:50]to at this point.
[10:51]So you have to try to not be too current
[10:56]in your language or descriptions.
[10:58]I sound your website, you're like,
[10:59]you can find me on, not just Twitter and Instagram,
[11:02]like the things you could find you on,
[11:03]I've never even heard.
[11:05]Like what are these things?
[11:06]How is she on these things?
[11:07]I joined my space earlier on.
[11:10]That's actually how I met Emily Jenkins
[11:12]and Lauren Marickel.
[11:13]My two, I've said I'm magic co-readers.
[11:16]We met on my space on this teen lit group,
[11:19]which I don't even, does my space still exist?
[11:22]I'm not kidding, I'm not kidding.
[11:24]So that's how we even met.
[11:25]So I think I've always definitely been trying to stay
[11:27]current about what other new technologies
[11:30]and what teenagers are on.
[11:32]But yeah, you have to try new things.
[11:34]Some things I love and stick to right away,
[11:37]I still, I do a lot of, I tweet a lot
[11:39]and I'm on Instagram a lot and I'm on Facebook,
[11:42]and some I haven't necessarily figured out.
[11:45]But I still can't figure out Snapchat fully.
[11:48]I know it's so many teenagers who are on it,
[11:51]but it just doesn't work for me.
[11:52]So I try to just use the ones that I enjoy.
[11:55]That makes sense.
[11:57]My daughter asked me to ask you,
[11:59]how do you name all of your characters?
[12:01]And having pod through all these bugs,
[12:03]you have so many different characters.
[12:04]Have I named anyone the same thing?
[12:06]That's not what I noticed.
[12:07]Not that I was at your role,
[12:08]I never do the same twice.
[12:10]I tried not to, at one point,
[12:11]I think it was in the fourth magic event hat and book.
[12:14]My editor noted that I had another Chloe and that,
[12:18]and also that all of my last names ended with Skeet
[12:22]or her burger or something and I was thinking,
[12:24]oh, I may have been going through my yearbook.
[12:27]I went through a Jewish school,
[12:27]so I asked someone to go through my yearbook
[12:29]and pick out names and kind of twist them up.
[12:32]So I definitely tried to be aware of that,
[12:35]but I, let's see, whatever, after it was a funny story,
[12:38]because when I came up with a concept,
[12:39]I called it Farrah's Tales and her name was Farrah.
[12:43]But then my editor felt that Farrah was sounded a bit dated
[12:47]and she wanted something a little bit more modern.
[12:49]So I changed the title of the series to carry tales
[12:52]and her name was Carrie.
[12:54]But depending where you are in the country,
[12:55]you're gonna pronounce Carrie differently.
[12:58]So then one of the people at Scholastic was named Abby,
[13:01]so I thought, well, what if we call it Abby ever after?
[13:03]I liked the way that sounded and that and her name became Abby,
[13:07]and then we changed the series name to whatever after.
[13:10]But at that point, I was sick of changing her name,
[13:12]so I left it as Abby.
[13:14]And the name Jonah just kind of came to me.
[13:15]I don't remember why, maybe it was someone's kid
[13:19]or something that I said,
[13:20]oh, that's a nice name and I just used it.
[13:23]Excellent.
[13:23]In two pieces in a pod,
[13:25]when you rewrite the princess in the P fairy tale,
[13:28]you talked a lot about the qualities
[13:30]you felt like were important in a princess,
[13:31]that you didn't want the princess,
[13:33]like in the old fairy tale,
[13:34]to just be a delicate flower who,
[13:36]you know, you can't even sleep on a P,
[13:37]but instead, kind of, you know,
[13:38]strength and is also kind and brave.
[13:42]And you show these examples of different girls
[13:45]who are all finalists in the contest,
[13:46]exhibiting all of these great traits.
[13:48]Are you trying to take on sort of the Disney princess?
[13:52]Live here and show what you think women in princesses
[13:55]have to be, is this some sort of big message
[13:58]or was it just fun for that part of that book?
[14:00]I mean, it's not even the Disney princess fight,
[14:03]that's in the original story,
[14:04]the P, sleeping on the P and making the,
[14:08]no, I mean, your take on the show.
[14:09]Oh, right, but for me, it's my take on just
[14:13]the full fairy tale, the all the fairy tales.
[14:16]Because if you're reading the original fairy tales,
[14:18]my characters always fall into the original fairy tales
[14:21]and not the Disney movie because I don't want Disney
[14:24]to sue me because I always write the,
[14:27]that's in public domain.
[14:28]So my characters always fall into the original fairy tale.
[14:31]And often those, the ending of the original fairy tales
[14:35]are also pretty troubling.
[14:37]Like the fact that that's how they found a princess,
[14:40]they just, they wanted to choose a princess based on
[14:42]who was the most delicate is not the message
[14:45]that I want my girls to have.
[14:46]And that's pretty much the heart of this whole series.
[14:48]Like when I started writing this,
[14:51]I loved fairy tales.
[14:52]I always love fairy tales.
[14:53]As a kid, I used to fracture fairy tales also.
[14:56]I would tell the story of the princess and the P,
[14:58]but it would be the princess and the M&M
[15:00]because I was not a fan of vegetables and I liked chocolate.
[15:03]But I always, always loved fairy tales.
[15:05]But when I had a daughter of my own
[15:06]and I would tell her these stories,
[15:09]I wanted to teach her that no,
[15:11]she doesn't have to wait for a prince to come and save her.
[15:14]You know, that's not how she's gonna get her happy ending.
[15:16]She has to have agencies.
[15:18]She has to be empowered.
[15:19]She has to be the one to make,
[15:21]to make the change in her own life.
[15:22]So that was really the message that I wanted to be in my books.
[15:25]And that's why when Abby falls into these fairy tales,
[15:28]she not only is the one who saves the day,
[15:31]but she also helps the princess realize
[15:34]what she can be on her own.
[15:35]And sometimes the princess gets married.
[15:38]I don't wanna give away the endings of all the books.
[15:39]But in some of the books, you know,
[15:42]she realizes that the prince is the right guy for her.
[15:44]And in some cases, she realizes that maybe
[15:48]she should get a job and then earn her own money.
[15:51]And then that's how she could move out of first up.
[15:53]Mother's attic.
[15:56]Tell me more about 10 things we did
[15:58]and probably shouldn't have your teen book,
[16:00]which I, that was just so awesome.
[16:02]It's like the modern day forever.
[16:05]It's just like what you're going for.
[16:07]You know what?
[16:08]I think when I write my teen stuff,
[16:10]I just usually have an idea
[16:12]and I just kind of explore it for 10 things we did.
[16:15]It's about a girl whose parents move away
[16:16]and she moves in with her friend.
[16:19]And that is the story that happened to me,
[16:20]pretty much when I was, when I was 17.
[16:23]My mom had remarried and moved to Connecticut
[16:26]and my sister moved with her.
[16:27]And then my father had also remarried and moved for a job.
[16:31]And I did not wanna leave Montreal where I was.
[16:33]So for 12th grade, I ended up moving into my friend's basement.
[16:38]And, you know, we paid her rent.
[16:40]And my friend's mother traveled a lot
[16:42]and so it was in California for pretty much most of the year.
[16:45]So it was just the two of us in this house,
[16:49]living on her own for the first time.
[16:50]And I had never really done laundry before or my own lodge.
[16:54]I'd never just cooked my own dinner.
[16:56]So suddenly I was living this, you know, life,
[16:59]this adult life while still being in the 12th grade.
[17:01]So that really was a heart of the story.
[17:03]And when I talked, when I first pitched it to my editor,
[17:07]you know, I said, it's gonna be about the fun parties
[17:09]that she has and my editor said, okay Sarah,
[17:11]but it's not just about the fun parties.
[17:13]What about the feeling of abandonment
[17:15]but your parents?
[17:16]What does it mean when your parents leave
[17:17]and you're left on your own?
[17:19]Of course, there's fun, but there's also the flip side,
[17:21]the dark side of that.
[17:22]So it was a really interesting book for me to write.
[17:26]And I hopefully was able to show both sides of that.
[17:30]Do you feel like that whole experience
[17:32]in addition to just gaining you this fantastic book?
[17:34]How do you feel like having,
[17:35]did you have to choose your parents?
[17:37]Like how did that whole incident in your life
[17:39]affect sort of how you developed your own sense of family?
[17:43]Especially now as a mom.
[17:44]I mean, it's definitely, it's made family
[17:46]extremely important to me.
[17:47]And I wanted to definitely have one of my own.
[17:50]And I mean, I've been with my husband since we were 17.
[17:52]We started doing a 17.
[17:53]Yeah.
[17:54]So he, I actually met him that year that I was on my own.
[17:58]And he became my family in so many ways
[18:00]because his family, his parents were still in Montreal
[18:05]and yet they just opened their arms to me.
[18:07]So while I was living on my own,
[18:09]I still would go over there for dinners
[18:11]and just feel like I was part of something.
[18:13]So that was, does he like Noah with nothing?
[18:15]Yeah, a little, yeah, we know what.
[18:16]Well, I'm trying to write that book now.
[18:18]It was Noah the good one or the good.
[18:21]I don't, I don't want to give anything to him.
[18:23]I don't, I don't, don't tell me anything.
[18:27]So what is going to be your hit movie from us?
[18:30]What do you think?
[18:32]Well, ups on the magic has been often by Disney.
[18:34]So they are developing it right now, hopefully.
[18:38]And I don't know.
[18:39]I think my, I think what I'd like to do now
[18:41]in terms of next steps is for me to develop some of these books.
[18:44]I have so many books and so many ideas
[18:47]that I really want to see, well,
[18:48]how do they go on television or features
[18:51]or something like that?
[18:52]I really want to spend some time focusing on that now
[18:54]in the future.
[18:55]Do you have one that you can see a main character?
[18:58]You have the sort of in your head already?
[18:59]Or are you just, I mean, I can see 10 things we did
[19:02]as a TV show, I think.
[19:04]I almost went online to make sure it wasn't.
[19:07]So I was like, I feel like I've seen this already.
[19:10]I hope not.
[19:11]But I think I like I see London, I see France.
[19:14]That's another book I wrote about backpacking
[19:16]through Europe and I could see that as a feature.
[19:19]It's about two girls backpacking and it was a trip
[19:22]that I did when I was 19, I believe.
[19:25]And it was just so much fun.
[19:27]And I learned so much about myself.
[19:29]Also, you know, the theme of being on my own
[19:31]for the first time I think is such an important theme
[19:34]in teen literature.
[19:35]So I've written about that in different ways.
[19:37]And I think those make great movies too.
[19:41]Is there anything you wish you did better?
[19:43]So many things, yes, yes.
[19:45]I, in general, I always think I could do more
[19:52]than I can.
[19:53]So I'm often late with books and stuff.
[19:56]I just handed in something yesterday,
[19:58]which was probably due about a month and a half.
[20:00]So I'm always late on everything, especially with the books.
[20:04]And sometimes I have to bump books a year,
[20:06]because I think, oh, for sure, I could write four books this year.
[20:08]But I can't actually physically write four books this year.
[20:11]So I had to push back the companion to I see light and I see France.
[20:16]I sometimes instead, like, I, for instance,
[20:19]but I'm invited to be speak on television.
[20:21]I get very nervous and usually don't just come up with these pieces.
[20:24]Why I shouldn't do it when I really should push myself to do that stuff,
[20:28]because it's good practice and it's good publicity,
[20:30]but I usually just make up excuses as to why I can't do it.
[20:33]I shouldn't do that.
[20:36]In addition to developing more for TV or film,
[20:39]what do you still want to accomplish?
[20:42]It's a good question. I think at some point,
[20:44]I'd like to write a picture book as well.
[20:47]I just keep getting younger and younger with my material.
[20:50]So maybe that'll be more books. I'll be writing papers, I don't know.
[20:53]But I would like to write a picture book at some point,
[20:56]and I'd like to write some sort of Holocaust story.
[21:00]My grandparents were Holocaust survivors.
[21:03]It's not really my brand.
[21:04]I write kind of female comedy action adventure books,
[21:07]but I think at some point, I'd really like to slow down and focus
[21:11]on a different type of story to tell my grandmother's story.
[21:14]I don't know when that's going to be, but at some point.
[21:16]And then I also like to write a book about being a mom.
[21:19]I haven't, when I wrote for adults,
[21:21]I was writing about being, you know,
[21:22]the 20-something single woman.
[21:24]And I would like to, at some point, write a book,
[21:27]but it's like to be, and maybe a New York City mom.
[21:30]Because there's lots of stories.
[21:31]I'll make that one.
[21:33]Can research me.
[21:36]That's great.
[21:37]What about any kind of advice you have for either writers out there
[21:41]or parents who have kids who want to be writers?
[21:45]I would say encourage your kids to read everything,
[21:49]not just one type of book.
[21:51]Of course, you want them always reading.
[21:53]So you want them focusing on whatever they love.
[21:55]And I wouldn't ever tell them not to read a specific thing.
[21:58]But just to make sure that they're exploring all their options,
[22:00]like let them try mysteries or if they don't let them try
[22:04]scary books or all different things.
[22:06]So they can really figure out what they want to do eventually.
[22:09]I would also tell them to keep it journal.
[22:11]I kept diaries my entire elementary school life.
[22:14]And I often go back and look through them.
[22:17]Oh, do you have yours too?
[22:19]I don't or not?
[22:20]Like, yeah, they're all like, I can't do it through that.
[22:22]Anyway, sadly, sorry, I'm like turning around.
[22:24]My daughter, my daughter now has played it.
[22:26]And she's like, you want to come in and read my mom's day?
[22:29]I'm like, stop.
[22:30]No.
[22:31]I haven't got my daughter's youth in that,
[22:33]but I think I think I'll probably get a kick out of that.
[22:35]How old are your dad?
[22:36]My daughters are nine and five.
[22:39]So I think definitely keeping journals,
[22:41]I always advise that for practicing writing,
[22:43]but also so that they can go back and reread them later on.
[22:47]And I would say also to work on short stories
[22:52]and then maybe submit them to community journals,
[22:55]or schools journals, a lot of schools have their own.
[22:58]If they don't, then to talk about starting one.
[23:00]I think sometimes if a school doesn't have that available,
[23:03]then it's up to the student to say,
[23:04]it would be great if we had this.
[23:05]Can I work on it?
[23:07]And I've done that before in high school,
[23:09]we started our own journal.
[23:10]And we didn't have creative writing classes in high school.
[23:13]So we petitioned to have one.
[23:15]So we, and then we did.
[23:16]So I think a lot of it is either seeing what's available to you
[23:19]and otherwise starting it for yourself.
[23:24]I have to just ask, what type of name is Melonowski?
[23:27]Oh, and I've typed it like 20 times.
[23:30]I mean, I guess it's Polish Jewish.
[23:32]So it's pronounced, it's pronounced Lynn Ovsky.
[23:36]It's a Polish double, no, no, no, it's totally fine.
[23:38]I pronounce it differently all the time.
[23:41]It's unclear exactly how it's really pronounced.
[23:43]My father chis pronounced it differently as whole life.
[23:46]So I kind of do too.
[23:47]I feel like as long as everyone makes an attempt
[23:49]to get all the letters in, then it kind of cool with it.
[23:53]Sometimes people come up with different things.
[23:55]There's like a bee in there, suddenly, that doesn't exist.
[23:59]Just one last thing on the upside down magic series.
[24:01]Are you, do you have your kids in mind
[24:04]when you're writing these?
[24:04]Do you read them out loud to your kids?
[24:06]Or are both not just sub-symmetric,
[24:08]but both of these series is like, how do you,
[24:11]I mean, we talked about how you get into the teen mind,
[24:13]beginning into that grade school.
[24:15]Is it your kids?
[24:16]It was pretty much my voice, I think.
[24:19]I go into my mind.
[24:20]I have a younger sister, not a younger brother,
[24:22]but I do channel that sibling relationship.
[24:25]And I do read them aloud to Chloe, my older one.
[24:28]I started reading it to her when she, her first day
[24:31]of kindergarten, I got my page proofs.
[24:33]And we were on the train going up town,
[24:35]and I just got in it, and I said, do you wanna hear it?
[24:37]And it was the first one that she did,
[24:38]and we read it all the way up, and then all the way down.
[24:41]And it was the first time I'd ever read my stuff out loud.
[24:43]And people always say, you should read your stuff out loud,
[24:46]and I never listened, but it is so helpful.
[24:49]I cannot recommend it enough.
[24:50]I found so many things in it, mistakes and changes.
[24:54]I'm just to have her real time reaction was fascinating.
[24:57]So that was really the first time I did it.
[24:59]So I just marked things up and I changed them.
[25:01]And now she reads, I read her all the page proofs.
[25:04]The page proofs are after, once the book has gone to be edited,
[25:08]then it gets designed, it's called the first pass
[25:11]or the page proofs.
[25:11]So it almost looks like pages in a book,
[25:14]and it's easy to read aloud and mark up.
[25:16]The last one though, she asked, we were running late,
[25:18]and she said, oh, I'll just take them to school,
[25:20]and I'll mark it up for you.
[25:21]And I was kind of sad and also good things.
[25:25]I like her little smiley face.
[25:26]Yeah, it's okay.
[25:29]That was everything I...
[25:31]Wow.
[25:32]I didn't know, yeah.
[25:32]I feel like we both speak so closely with you.
[25:34]I can get it all the time, anyway.
[25:37]Thank you so much for having me.
[25:39]And just a reminder, this episode was sponsored
[25:43]by Chloe's fruit, the cool way to eat fruit,
[25:45]check them out at Chloe's fruit.com.
[25:46]And thank you again to Sarah and my pleasure.
[25:48]Thanks for having me, thanks.