Aimee Molloy, Author of "The Perfect Mother"
[0:00]Hi, I'm Zibi Owens, and this is Mom's Don't Have Time to Read Books.
[0:15]As a mom of four kids in New York City and a writer myself, I know all too well how short
[0:19]everyone is on time, so I'm here to help.
[0:21]I'm going to interview authors and writers of all types about their work, especially as
[0:25]it relates to parenting and family issues.
[0:28]Hopefully you can listen while doing 8 million other things, and fall in love with these
[0:31]talented scribes and their fantastic books, essays, and songs like I have.
[0:35]Plus, get some tips on surviving parenthood.
[0:37]For more about me, you can check out my essays at zibiowans.com.
[0:42]Please don't forget to subscribe to Mom's Don't Have Time to Read Books.
[0:46]Subscribe, subscribe, and if you can, please leave a 5-star rating or a comment.
[0:51]Today's episode has been sponsored by Bobo Botanicals.
[0:56]Bobo Botanicals offers your family non-toxic and pure hair, skin, and sun solutions
[1:01]created with natural or organic solutions.
[1:04]Your tagline is, family comes first naturally.
[1:07]As an aside, I use Bobo for literally all my kids, shampoos, bodywashes, sun lotions, and
[1:13]even for me too.
[1:14]So definitely check them out at bobo botanicals.com, B-A-B-O, botanicals.com.
[1:22]I'm here today with Amy Maloy, author of several books, including, however long the night,
[1:27]and Janssen's gift, plus books she wrote with Elizabeth Edwards and John Kerry, and
[1:31]Teresa Heinz Kerry.
[1:32]She recently released the novel The Perfect Mother, so nice of you to name that after
[1:36]me, by the way, which was an instant New York Times bestseller.
[1:39]The movie rides have already been sold to make it into a major motion picture starring
[1:43]Kerry Washington, and it just came out on May 1st.
[1:46]She's also written articles and essays for The New York Times, The Washington Post, and
[1:50]salon.com.
[1:51]Amy Maloy is in Brooklyn with her husband and two children ages 3 and 5.
[1:55]So welcome.
[1:56]Thank you.
[1:57]Thanks for having me.
[1:58]So for the busy moms out there who might have missed all the amazing press your book
[2:01]has been getting, heralding it is The Can't Miss Summer Read.
[2:04]Can you explain what The Perfect Mother is about?
[2:07]Yes, it's about a group of women called the main mothers who meet after having babies
[2:13]at the, in May, at the same time.
[2:16]And it's a mommy group and they get together before their kids are born, and then after
[2:20]the kids are born, they meet twice a week in Prospect Park in Brooklyn.
[2:23]And when the babies are six weeks old, they decide that they need a night away for the
[2:28]first time from their kids.
[2:29]And so they pick a bar to go out and they, one of the women in the group, Winnie, she's
[2:34]a single mom.
[2:36]She's reluctant to go.
[2:37]And so they sort of put a lot of pressure on her and they hire a babysitter for her
[2:41]and they convince her to come out.
[2:42]And so while they're out, having drinks, Winnie's babysitter falls asleep on the couch.
[2:49]And she wakes up to find that Winnie's six week old son, Midas, is missing from his
[2:52]crib.
[2:53]And so the book takes place over the next 13 days.
[2:56]And it follows three members of the main mothers who become increasingly convinced that
[3:00]the police are screwing up the investigation and increasingly determined to do everything
[3:05]that they can to find Midas before it's too late.
[3:08]And how did you come up with the idea of this?
[3:10]Well, it's so morbid, right?
[3:12]But I had my first baby in 2012.
[3:18]And you know, I live in Brooklyn and my husband's family and my family, we don't, nobody
[3:22]lives near us.
[3:24]Even though I had friends who had babies, I felt pretty alone and isolated.
[3:28]Like I really experienced that.
[3:29]And so I joined a mommy group through Park Slow Parents, which everybody does in Brooklyn
[3:33]when you have a kid.
[3:34]You sort of have to.
[3:35]I think it's like a law there.
[3:37]And so we were the September babies.
[3:39]And it was my mommy group.
[3:40]But at first I was like, I'm going too cool to have to do this.
[3:43]I'm a little bit.
[3:44]I was 39 at the time.
[3:45]I was older.
[3:47]And then almost immediately it was like these women became this integral part of my life.
[3:53]And I didn't even really go to the meetings, like much like the main mother's most
[3:56]of the group existed online and with a listserv.
[4:01]And so, you know, we would somebody would write with a question and it could be three
[4:04]in the morning.
[4:05]And it was like, you know, here's this concern I'm having or here's something with my
[4:08]baby or my marriage or my body or whatever all these issues are we were dealing with.
[4:11]And within minutes there would be like a dozen thoughtful responses.
[4:14]You know, and I had done a lot of travel in rural Africa before when I was pregnant, actually.
[4:21]And so I sort of was really blown away by the tribe of women that existed in these communities
[4:28]where somebody would have a baby.
[4:29]But like every woman there would treat this child as their own.
[4:33]And so I started to play with this idea.
[4:36]You know, I'd never have written a novel before.
[4:37]I really wanted to.
[4:38]I kind of, I'd been ghostwriting non-fiction.
[4:41]I wanted to get out of that.
[4:42]And so I, you know, it came to me like this is here's something to explore.
[4:47]Like what it's like the craziness of having a baby, you know, especially in the city
[4:51]where you don't have families around and like this tribe of women that kind of gets created
[4:56]often in urban areas.
[4:59]You know, and then it became, and then I read Gone Girl.
[5:02]And I loved that book so much.
[5:05]It really like brought me back to the pleasure of reading.
[5:07]And I sort of started to play with like this morbid idea what would happen in this mommy
[5:12]group if one of our kids would have missing.
[5:14]And I just had this vision of all these women, relative strangers, you know, smearing
[5:19]war paint on the face and like taking up our torches and like going on the streets of Brooklyn
[5:24]and not resting until like this baby was found.
[5:27]And so I just let this idea sort of I played with that for a while and started to really
[5:31]study thrillers and like the pacing and how it worked.
[5:35]And then after my second was born, less than two years later I finally said like, okay,
[5:39]I'm going to do this.
[5:40]And you know, I hired a babysitter and said to my family like everybody's going to adjust
[5:45]I'm going to not take any work.
[5:46]I'm not going to take any paid work for a year and I'm going to try and write this book.
[5:50]So yeah, that's how it came about.
[5:52]That's amazing.
[5:53]So where did you have a certain place you went to every day or did you have a schedule?
[5:56]How did you do it?
[5:57]Yeah.
[5:58]I mean, it was, it was, you know, because I really said to my husband like, I'm not
[6:03]going to, I was at the point in my gross writing career where I was, I mean, I had like
[6:07]made it.
[6:08]I was like getting these really great jobs and you know, and that was the time where I was
[6:11]like, okay, it's time to quit.
[6:13]You know, and my husband's like, no, not really.
[6:14]And I was like, no, I need to do this.
[6:17]And so, you know, I just hired a babysitter.
[6:19]My kids were one and three at the time.
[6:21]And I had this whole room.
[6:22]So we have this small two bedroom apartment in Brooklyn and the babysitter would come.
[6:26]And I would say, okay, I'm going to the office and I would just slam the door really
[6:30]hard and then sneak into my bedroom because I didn't actually have an office.
[6:34]And I can't really work in coffee shops.
[6:36]And so I would, I wrote it in my bed basically and then I would have to text my babysitter
[6:40]and be like, I have to go to the bathroom.
[6:41]And so she would like, break them into the other room so they couldn't see me.
[6:45]And then, yeah, I mean, I kept because I had this year deadline.
[6:48]You know, I said, I started on January 5th and I was like, I have one year to do this.
[6:52]And so it meant that I just wrote at the time.
[6:55]Like, I wrote when the kids went to bed and I woke up at 5 and then I wrote every weekend.
[7:00]Like, my husband, like, he just took the kids away and, you know, I did a couple Airbnb
[7:05]cottage rentals and stuff.
[7:08]Yeah, eventually my daughter, she figured it out.
[7:10]Like, and so she started to slip these notes under my door and they just said, like, I miss
[7:15]you mommy with like a big frowny face, you know, and I was like, and so finally after
[7:20]I finished the book and I started my second, I'm like, okay, I think it's time to like
[7:23]rent a studio.
[7:24]I will not be tilted into coming out and playing with you.
[7:27]Oh, that's amazing.
[7:28]They got it all done like that.
[7:31]That's amazing.
[7:32]Did you know, you know, some novelists say, oh, you know, the characters just came to
[7:36]me and it just all unfolded in front of me and I didn't even write it myself with just
[7:39]like, flew out.
[7:41]Did you have it all mapped out ahead of time?
[7:43]No.
[7:44]And just came out.
[7:45]Yeah.
[7:46]And I used to hear novelists say that.
[7:47]Yeah.
[7:48]And I didn't mean to dismiss it or anything.
[7:50]No, but it's, it's crazy.
[7:52]Like, it's, it's, you know, I was saying to somebody the day, like, I consider myself,
[7:56]I grew up pretty religious and then I lost that.
[7:58]And then like, I've sort of been trying to like, you know, like, I feel, especially with
[8:02]having kids like, I feel more spiritual.
[8:04]This book has made me feel very spiritual.
[8:06]The process of writing it because it really felt divine at times, like, just this, you
[8:13]know, there's this big twist at the end, which I didn't even know existed, which I'll
[8:18]tell you after we turn that which one, but, you know, it's sort of, it was 80% of the
[8:23]way through where like this twist came to me that I think really made the book.
[8:27]And I don't know what would have happened if I didn't, if that hadn't come to me, you
[8:31]know, and like, as there were just so many times where I think, like, pieces felt into
[8:36]place, where I was like, oh my gosh, this is happening here.
[8:39]And like, because of what happened in chapter two, and I didn't know this was coming,
[8:42]but somehow some part of my brain like was organizing it.
[8:47]But you know, and I'm, now I'm doing my second novel and I'm doing it again.
[8:51]I'm just kind of writing blindly.
[8:53]And it's really hard.
[8:54]I mean, I'm like, I don't know how I did it the first time and now I'm back being like,
[8:58]I'm not sure I had to do it this time either.
[9:01]I loved, in this book, how you shifted from the point of view, is that was that part of
[9:06]when you're analyzing on the structure, because I feel like the structure of the book
[9:10]and how all of a sudden you're in all these different women's heads and then their kitchens
[9:14]and everything.
[9:15]It was like so powerful to do it that way.
[9:17]Yeah.
[9:18]So the book is three.
[9:19]It's Francine L. and Collette and I, you know, they take turns kind of speaking.
[9:22]And originally, you know, when I when I decided to write this book, I, I'm more
[9:28]of a literary reader.
[9:29]And so I really was struggling with this idea of writing a thriller, like that I, if I could
[9:34]do it and like if I could, you know, because I felt that I, there, a lot of what I wanted
[9:38]to say felt like important and like feminist, you know, like what it is, what's like,
[9:43]what it's like to be a woman in today's culture.
[9:46]And I didn't know if I could do that in the thriller.
[9:50]And so my, what I originally said I was going to do is that the narrator was going to be
[9:55]we first person plural, you know, and it was like we woke up and we went to the
[10:00]and like we took care of our kids.
[10:01]And it was like this one collective voice of motherhood.
[10:04]And there's been a few books that have done this really well.
[10:06]Mostly Joshua Ferris wrote, then we came to the end this way.
[10:09]And it's about, you know, a group of people
[10:11]working in an office.
[10:12]And you get to know the characters individually,
[10:16]but the narrator is this week.
[10:18]And I mean, like the fact that I thought
[10:20]for my first novel, that I could try this,
[10:22]it was so stupid.
[10:23]Like I joined a writing group and they were like,
[10:25]you know, the first time they were like,
[10:27]yeah, I don't think so.
[10:28]And I was like, no, I was going to work out.
[10:29]And then the next week they were like,
[10:30]no, it's even worse right now.
[10:32]And so it was four months of me
[10:35]like really fighting to try and approach it
[10:38]with that point of view.
[10:39]And then when I gave it up, and then I, you know,
[10:42]decided to switch for each woman,
[10:44]like, you know, had their turn.
[10:45]It was much easier.
[10:47]So I think in many ways it was just like this relief to me.
[10:49]Like, okay, you know, I feel like I'm cheating
[10:52]because I had this really hard goal.
[10:54]And then I gave it up and like I'm doing something
[10:56]that feels easier.
[10:56]So the book just kind of like,
[10:58]it was six, you know, six months later,
[10:59]I think that I finished it once I like gave it
[11:01]into that point of view.
[11:03]I just interviewed Kachlan Macy,
[11:04]which is my favorite part.
[11:05]And she was saying that she really,
[11:08]she had, she was telling it from one character's point of view
[11:11]who was sort of damaged in a way.
[11:12]And then she realized it was much more powerful
[11:15]not to be inside that character.
[11:16]Yeah.
[11:17]Like it's not as interesting to be inside a flawed character,
[11:19]but to see it from the outside.
[11:21]That's interesting.
[11:22]And so once she figured that out,
[11:23]like the rest of the fucking flying app,
[11:24]she was like, so stuck there for well.
[11:26]I mean, I think it's,
[11:27]you know, it's, I've learned a lot by writing this book
[11:30]and by writing a novel.
[11:32]And you know, and point of view is so important.
[11:34]And you know, your whole,
[11:36]I think that's the first key.
[11:37]And I had this writing group of incredibly smart women
[11:40]thank God because they were able to kind of like work with me
[11:42]about like how important it is to get the right point of view.
[11:45]And once you do that, how easy.
[11:47]Like when the writing is easy,
[11:48]like you're, you know, you're doing it right.
[11:50]Sort of, well, it's not really easy, but easier.
[11:52]Yeah, that makes sense.
[11:55]And one of the major clues for the book
[11:56]that has gotten on this process,
[11:58]that you've got Billy Idol to let you get
[11:59]the lyrics to Rebel Yellow and get the rights to that.
[12:02]So how did that work?
[12:02]Yeah, so, so the New York Times just wrote
[12:07]about this, what happened with this,
[12:08]but you know, because I think I had this short deadline,
[12:11]I was obsessed with like the story.
[12:13]I was, oh, and my husband was like,
[12:14]oh, you're not even here.
[12:15]Like we would be having dinner
[12:16]and I'm just like staring into space.
[12:18]And he's like, what are you working at?
[12:19]Like are you spending time with Nell right now?
[12:20]And I was like, yeah, kind of.
[12:22]And so we were out one night and I heard Rebel Yellow,
[12:24]you know, and the lyrics are like in the midnight hour.
[12:27]She wants more, more, more, you know what I said
[12:29]to my husband.
[12:29]I was like, this is a song about New Mother.
[12:32]And he's like, this is absolutely not a song
[12:34]about New Motherhood.
[12:35]Like you're crazy, everything you're seeing is of,
[12:37]I was like, no, listen.
[12:38]And like the lyric was, I thought it was,
[12:41]I'll walk the world with you, babe.
[12:43]And I was like, no, this isn't you're walking
[12:45]like with your child.
[12:46]And then I went home and I Googled the lyrics.
[12:48]And it's actually I'll walk the ward.
[12:50]And I was like, no, it is.
[12:51]He's writing about having a baby.
[12:54]And so, you know, in the first scene of the book
[12:56]when the women go out and they're at this bar
[12:59]while Minus is being taken from his crib,
[13:00]the Rebel Yellow comes on.
[13:02]And so the women all sort of, they're drunk by this point
[13:04]and like Nell, who's kind of like troublemaker a little bit.
[13:08]Like, you know, she's dancing to it.
[13:10]And she's, she like declares that this is the anthem
[13:12]of Motherhood.
[13:13]And so it was, I listened to that song a lot
[13:16]while I was writing it and I grew up in the 80s.
[13:20]So I was like, I love him.
[13:21]So, and so when I sold the book, the editor said,
[13:25]like in order to get the rights to use these lyrics,
[13:26]it's a lot of money and you have to pay for it.
[13:28]So you have to get rid of them.
[13:31]And I couldn't do it.
[13:31]And so I, so I Googled his manager,
[13:34]Billie Eddle's manager and I found, you know, his website.
[13:37]And I just emailed him and I was like,
[13:38]hey, I'm writing this novel and it's about to be published
[13:40]and can I just use the lyrics to this song.
[13:43]And he wrote back, he's like, I don't know, let me ask Billie.
[13:45]And I was like, really?
[13:46]And it was funny to remember my iPhone.
[13:49]I had an iPhone and it broke.
[13:50]And so I went to the iPhone store in Brooklyn
[13:53]and I have to get a new phone.
[13:56]And when I turned the phone, I back at the iPhone store
[13:59]and I downloaded my email.
[14:02]He had written, the manager had written back
[14:04]and he was like, Billie Eddle says, yes.
[14:06]You just have to thank him in the book.
[14:08]And I was like dancing around this iPhone store
[14:10]like telling all these people.
[14:11]I was like, do I have to ask, Billie Eddle said yes.
[14:14]And like, you know, I was like, of course I'll thank him.
[14:16]And so what I ended up doing is instead of doing,
[14:19]I didn't want to do any acknowledgements.
[14:21]Because I was like, I'm like,
[14:23]if you have the chance to thank Billie Eddle,
[14:24]like that can be the only person you think.
[14:26]So like, you know, I was like, I'll tell my mother
[14:28]and my husband like, thank you privately,
[14:30]but like, I think Billie I don't know that.
[14:33]I always love reading the acknowledgements.
[14:35]I feel like you always get like this inside glitz
[14:37]and a little bit into people.
[14:38]And I got to you and I was like, I like to thank Billie.
[14:40]I don't think, all right, well, onto the next.
[14:43]Well, acknowledges are so weird
[14:45]because it never used to be that novels
[14:47]novelist did acknowledgements.
[14:48]Like, it was just nonfiction, you know, books,
[14:50]which makes sense because for nonfiction,
[14:52]like you really need a lot of people,
[14:54]but now it's like these fun acknowledgements and novels.
[14:57]And I don't know.
[14:58]I think I wouldn't do it even if it wasn't Billie.
[15:00]You know, I think I'm a little bit too.
[15:02]Like, I did this once when my first nonfiction books
[15:04]where I like, I thanked my boyfriend at the time.
[15:06]And like, oh, no, and then he went back up.
[15:09]And I think I'm a little bit like,
[15:11]I don't want to do that again.
[15:12]That's really funny.
[15:14]So I think now might be my favorite character.
[15:16]I really loved her sarcasm in the book.
[15:18]One scene that I thought was super funny was,
[15:21]so Scarlett says, no offense.
[15:22]I know a lot of people love New York City,
[15:24]but I can't imagine raising a kid in the city.
[15:26]Since the baby, all I see is how filthy it is here.
[15:28]I want him to know clean hair and trees
[15:30]to which no response, not me.
[15:32]I want to raise my baby in school.
[15:33]I want my baby raised in squalor.
[15:36]And I think this really speaks so much
[15:37]to this ever present debate of New York City moms,
[15:40]like us and so many other people.
[15:42]It's so hard to raise kids here.
[15:44]And logically, this isn't the best place.
[15:47]And yet we all sort of stay.
[15:50]What do you think this is all about?
[15:52]Oh my gosh, we should have my husband here.
[15:54]We could have a therapy session right now
[15:55]because we are in the midst of this debate.
[15:58]And I think I'm ready to leave.
[16:02]And my kids are at that age now
[16:06]where they just want to be exploring.
[16:07]My little one now rides a bike to school.
[16:09]And I'm always like, watch out for the dog poop.
[16:12]Watch out for the garbage.
[16:14]I'm like, I want to leave.
[16:15]And my husband can't do it.
[16:17]He's a child therapist.
[16:18]He's a good private practice in Brooklyn.
[16:20]And he's obsessed with music.
[16:23]And he rides his bike everywhere.
[16:25]And so he's worried that if he leaves the city,
[16:27]then it'll be hard.
[16:29]So I don't know.
[16:30]It's this constant.
[16:32]This is the problem with moving to New York, I think,
[16:34]is that you really where do you go when it's time to leave.
[16:38]It's such a special place and it's such a hard place
[16:40]that I don't know.
[16:43]And yeah, I think once you have kids, it becomes both harder
[16:47]and also more magical because your kids
[16:50]are just experiencing the city.
[16:52]And so I don't know.
[16:54]And I think I guess the answer is to have a country place
[16:57]or something, and keep your place in the city so that's
[17:00]our current fight.
[17:03]I also really appreciated the scene
[17:05]at what became known as the Jolly Mama from Collette's
[17:07]point of view.
[17:08]And he wrote, most nights at this time,
[17:09]she'd be sitting with her laptop in bed,
[17:11]staring at a blank page, feeling exhausted
[17:13]and nipped.
[17:14]How did I used to write you wonders?
[17:16]So I'm sure so many aspiring writers
[17:18]that they feel the same way.
[17:20]I have no time to write, not that I'm a writer like you,
[17:22]but just even the one page every so often that I do.
[17:26]Was this, do you feel like this is your experience at all?
[17:29]Or it sounds like you just had this huge motor
[17:31]under you to finish the book.
[17:32]And you were never too tired to be working on it.
[17:37]I mean, a little bit.
[17:38]But before I was writing, I wrote a book,
[17:41]however long the night, which is a biography
[17:43]of this woman, Molly Melching, who lives in Senegal,
[17:46]in most Africa.
[17:47]And she has started this human rights camp,
[17:49]like education, which has just led to this human rights movement
[17:52]among women there.
[17:53]And it's amazing.
[17:54]And I was one of my first one.
[17:58]I found out I was pregnant on January 1st.
[18:00]And then I left for Senegal on January 2nd.
[18:02]And so I did a lot of traveling while I was pregnant.
[18:05]And then the book was due.
[18:07]So I can't remember what it was.
[18:09]But I took two weeks off before my due date
[18:13]in order to rest in prepare, because I
[18:15]was in the midst of writing this really intense book.
[18:18]And then my kid was like two weeks late.
[18:20]So I ended up like taking a month off beforehand, which
[18:23]meant that day three of her life had to go back to work.
[18:27]And so I had a babysitter come at the time.
[18:29]And I was working in the bedroom.
[18:31]And the babysitter was in the living room.
[18:33]And I just would literally spend,
[18:35]I would just go through pictures of looking at my baby.
[18:38]I was just like out in the living room, which
[18:40]Nell does in the book.
[18:41]Like she has to go back to work quickly.
[18:43]And then she spends her whole time
[18:45]like at work, looking at pictures of her kid.
[18:47]And I mean, I don't know how I think
[18:51]Colette's experience is more of that experience for me,
[18:55]where I was like I had a newborn and I was having to write.
[18:58]And it wasn't even just like finding the time
[19:02]and like being awake.
[19:03]It was more like your brain really doesn't work.
[19:07]And so yeah, you know, and she's
[19:09]Colette's a ghost writer and I was a ghost writer.
[19:11]And so a lot of I think like developing her as a character
[19:15]is, you know, is like sort of, yeah,
[19:18]was my way of sort of exploring that like all the way
[19:20]that your creative life changes after you have kids,
[19:23]which creative people talk about.
[19:25]But it was shocking to me sort of how much like, you know,
[19:29]everything in my life shifted.
[19:30]And it was, you know, what I ended up doing after I had my kids
[19:33]was I just started to write about having kids.
[19:36]And you know, it sort of a joke in the book
[19:37]where like Colette is saying to her boyfriend like,
[19:40]I don't know what to write about.
[19:41]And he's like, we'll do what every woman does
[19:43]like right about having a baby.
[19:44]And so, you know, and I read all these articles
[19:46]about breastfeeding and like formula and like sleep training.
[19:49]And I think that that was my way of like leading up
[19:51]to like trying a novel about motherhood.
[19:54]Once my brain, you know, and once my kid was like one and a half.
[19:57]And so by that time, it's better.
[20:00]still hard, but it's not, you know, I'd actually forgotten what it was like for the newborn
[20:04]phase. And like, in the book, the kids are six weeks old. And so I started to go to coffee
[20:08]shops where new moms groups were meeting and like kind of stalking them a little bit and
[20:12]like sitting really close and like listening to because I was like, what are, what do they
[20:16]talk about? Um, because it was, you know, it still had to see even by the time I think you
[20:20]reach a year old, like you're like, you forget, you forget, because you have to forget
[20:23]or you never have another child. They say though, from an evolutionary perspective, this is quite
[20:27]helpful, right? The brain becomes so consumed with your baby and keeping everybody alive,
[20:31]you know, totally. But it just doesn't, so much of having babies just does not fit with the modern
[20:35]world. I feel like just like from the schedule of the feeding on, like, there's nothing fits,
[20:41]like, it just doesn't fit. Yeah. So anyway, um, you talked about the moment, but when the narrator
[20:50]was talking about it, when she realized that she was going to change when she had a baby,
[20:55]even though she didn't want to. Yeah. And the first thing she noticed was that all of a sudden
[20:58]she started waiting for the streetlights to turn green before it just, you know, crossing and
[21:02]it's such a great New York moment. Like, do you feel like changing behavior in this way,
[21:07]do you feel like that was sort of a sellout for the narrator or something more positive?
[21:12]Um, well, I mean, it's funny. So my three-year-old just started to ride a bike, like without
[21:18]training wells. And so both of my kids, it's what my husband is crazy because he rides his bike
[21:23]everywhere. So he's like, okay, we're going to learn how to ride a bike today and come home and
[21:26]like they both know how to ride bikes. And I'm like, like, hiring your husband comes to you.
[21:30]I don't know. She's almost four. So I should say she's three, tell me four, like six weeks. Um,
[21:36]but, you know, it's, they stop at the streetlight. And like, the only reason I let them ride their
[21:42]bike to school is because they noticed up at the streetlight. But we had this fight. This was like
[21:46]our attention sort of after having a kid is that, um, I was that person, you know, and like,
[21:52]I am somebody who like, I, you know, I, when I was single, I like went to Bali in Indonesia for
[21:58]like three months to write and like, you know, just didn't know where I was going. And my husband
[22:02]and I like, we went to Nicaragua and are like, honeymoon and like, Honduras and our babymoon,
[22:06]like, you know, we would show up and like, not even have a hotel reservation. And so I was not
[22:10]somebody who like did a lot of, I wasn't very fearful. And then I became, I did become really fearful
[22:17]and like, really anxious. And like, if my husband like had the stroller and like, was standing
[22:22]on the sidewalk, but this, like the stroller was in the street a little bit. Like, I would just be like,
[22:26]oh, and he used to, there was like, we have a driveway and like, he would put the baby seat, like,
[22:30]on the hood of a car and like, unlock our gate. And I was like, do you get a fall off? And, um,
[22:35]to me, that was the most surprising part I think of having a kid is like, I did not have post
[22:40]pardon depression. But I think I like, I think I had pretty serious anxiety. And, um, you know,
[22:46]and it was only after I had my second that I didn't feel fearful, that I was able to, like,
[22:51]back and be like, wow, that was intense. Like, that was really, I was very nervous about keeping
[22:56]this kid alive. And I was surprised by that. So, um, you know, and like, I do see these moms,
[23:01]hers is like, whatever, it's all over me fine. It's all over me fine. It's all over me fine.
[23:04]And I probably wish I could be that person. And I was much more like that with my second.
[23:09]But it just wasn't, you know, I was like, I'm just not, I guess I'm not wired this way. And I
[23:13]I was shocked by it. And my husband was shocked by it. You know, I think it was, it did cause like a lot
[23:17]of tension because I think he was like, who are you? Like, how are you? It's like super anxious person.
[23:22]Like, she's going to be fine if like, I'm not standing like right on the corner. And I'm like,
[23:26]no, she's like, you'll never get it. You'll never get it. And like, they really won't ever get it.
[23:30]You know, it is true. Like, they really will ever get it. So, um, yeah.
[23:34]And now I finally got to the point where I'm like, I just, I can't go to the playground anymore
[23:39]because I'm so anxious that they're going to fall that I'm going to make them,
[23:42]because like my kids aren't afraid. Like they're happy to go exploring. But if I'm there,
[23:46]I'm like, wait, watch out. And I like put my hand underneath. I'm like, this is so bad for them.
[23:50]Yeah. I have to just take myself away or like put them on the swings where I feel like it.
[23:56]Because I feel like there is that sense of like, oh my gosh, like, did I keep them all live today?
[24:00]I know. I mean, it's terrible. But it's like so much responsibility and pressure. It's like,
[24:05]you have to adapt to that in some way. Yeah. And I remember when my daughter, my oldest,
[24:10]she was probably one and a half. She fell and she cut her eye really bad. Like she had
[24:14]a 10 stitches right above her eye row. And it was like torble. And like, but I think in some ways,
[24:19]it like broke the ice a little bit. I remember we bought a new car. And it was like our first time
[24:24]spending money on something like that. And I was like, I kind of wanted to just key it myself,
[24:29]because I was like, we need to get a scratch on it so that I can start worrying about it. And just
[24:33]be like, okay, it's just a car with a scratch on it. And like, I think, you know, as kids grow up and they
[24:37]get hurt and like, bad, like, you know, like, a little bit hurt. Like, I think it's just
[24:41]becomes like, okay, we're all going to survive this. You know, she's going to cry through the night
[24:45]and she's going to wake up and be fine. And we're all going to survive this. Yeah.
[24:48]Well, thanks. That made me feel a lot better. One moment towards the end of the book,
[24:56]I feel like it's a great commentary on the role of the dad and the emotional people of having
[25:00]a newborn. Collette is laying in bed debating, telling her husband how she's really feeling inside.
[25:05]And he wrote, but she's too afraid afraid that if she begins, she'll start to cry and never stop.
[25:10]She'll be swallowed by her sadness, her fear, how overwhelmed she is, how certain she is that
[25:15]everything she has is slipping away. And I felt like this was such a relatable moment. Like,
[25:19]do you confide in the husband? Can he understand sort of what we were just saying? Yeah.
[25:22]Like, do you feel like you went through something like this with your own husband or you could just
[25:26]imagine other people going through it? Or? Yeah. I mean, I think a lot of it was, you know,
[25:31]just as we were just saying, like, my husband's a therapist. So he's he's probably more open to
[25:35]like messiness, you know, and in some ways not too, because after a long day, like he doesn't
[25:40]want to hear it, but you know, but I do think for me, it was it was this, how much do you like
[25:46]reveal about the anxiety that you're feeling, you know, and again, because I wasn't,
[25:52]I wasn't like an anxious person. And I think it was like giving voice to it. Like,
[25:58]oh, was almost made me feel weaker too, you know, and so, which I think is where a lot of women
[26:03]get in trouble because they're afraid to sort of, you know, they're failing. And like, you know,
[26:09]like, Francie in the book, like, she's very anxious. Like, she was my, I got to put all my anxiety
[26:13]like that I felt with her, you know, and she couldn't the way it's sort of like, you know, she
[26:19]she tells her husband and he's like, oh, my God, are you crying again? You know, and her mother-in-law
[26:24]is like, you've wanted this baby so bad. Like, why are you so upset, you know, and like, and then
[26:29]she sort of has to like bottle it up and then call that is doing the same thing where she's not
[26:33]she's not able to really be open with her boyfriend until later, you know, and he's super
[26:37]understanding when she eventually like opens up how she's feeling about it. But yeah, I mean, this is,
[26:42]this is why we need this tribe of women, I think. And this is actually why I think this,
[26:47]this my own mommy group was so amazing because the honesty that people shared, like, the,
[26:53]you know, and it was literally like, I would know about like a woman's inverted nipples at the point,
[26:59]you know, what was happening like with her sex life. But if she walked by me on the street,
[27:02]I'd probably, I wouldn't recognize her because I didn't like, I never met her. But it was like,
[27:07]this place to come and just be like, here we are in all of our like, neediness and messiness.
[27:12]And if I can't tell my husband about it, at least I have a place to like put it so that it doesn't
[27:17]become worse, you know, and that eventually like, you feel better. Hopefully, where you get help?
[27:24]Your book has been compared to big little lies meets before the fall meets the girl on the train,
[27:30]meets everything. It's like, do you think, and it became, you know, an instant New York Times bestseller
[27:36]and number five? Well, first I wanted to know what it was like when that happened when you found out,
[27:42]did you get a phone call like use that on Instagram. I may have had a little bit too much
[27:46]one last night after the wonderful team at Harvard Books called to tell me the perfect mother is debuting
[27:50]at number five, truly a dream come true. So I want to hear about that. And I also wanted to hear
[27:55]about why you think this is hitting such a chord with people today. Okay. So the story of the
[27:59]Times is the way that it works is that on Wednesday at 5 p.m. the New York Times book review,
[28:07]they email out to like the industry people. Like here's the upcoming, here's the upcoming list for
[28:12]the week, which is actually like a week ahead of time. And so I knew that I knew this. And so I'm
[28:18]very much some writers are, you know, like they don't want to know about the sales or they don't
[28:22]want to know the business side of things like they just want to write. And I'm like the opposite.
[28:26]And I think because I've been in the industry for so long and I've written a bunch of books,
[28:29]like I'm very much like my agent is like, no, I get it. You want all the information like,
[28:33]okay, okay, okay. So I knew that this was coming at five. But it was like, it did not at all
[28:39]think that I was going to hit the list. But, you know, the publisher had done a really great job
[28:45]of promoting the book before it came out. And, and so at Wednesday, my husband, a school,
[28:51]pick up on Wednesdays. And so at 330, he like leads to go get the kids. And he was like,
[28:58]I said, do you want me to call you at five and just tell you? And he was like, if you call me,
[29:02]you made the list. And if you didn't call me, then you didn't die magic. And I was like,
[29:06]okay, that's fine. And so, so it was like 10 to five. And it's a quiet house. And I go and just
[29:13]pour myself a glass of wine. And I'm just sitting on the couch. And I was just like, this
[29:16]isn't going to happen. But wouldn't that be nice? Oh, and here's the weird part actually.
[29:19]was that I didn't, I actually didn't care about the list because it was like, there's no way
[29:23]that I'm going to debut in the New York Times festival or the list. And then on Sunday,
[29:27]I go to sleep and I have this very vivid dream that my agent and I go out for drinks at like
[29:33]six o'clock at this waterfront bar because we know that the times list is coming. And that I get a
[29:38]phone call from this friend of mine that I haven't talked to in 10 years. And he says, oh, I just,
[29:43]they emailed me a copy of the list early in your number five. I know. No way. Yeah. And I was just like,
[29:49]and I woke up and it was one of those moments where I was like, oh, no, that was a dream. And I
[29:53]actually like was very upset. And then I sent to like, I called my agent and I was like,
[29:57]I had this dream. And I'm like, I didn't even care about this. And now,
[30:00]I had this dream, and now I really want it really badly.
[30:02]So I had my gosh, I had a 10 to five,
[30:05]and at 509, the phone rings,
[30:08]and it's a Manhattan number, but it's not my agent.
[30:10]I was like, I don't know what this is,
[30:11]and so I answered the phone, and I'm on speaker,
[30:14]and there's a lot of rustling and people talking,
[30:17]and I was literally like, who is it?
[30:18]And it's my editor, and she says,
[30:20]oh, it's your team at Harper, and I was like, okay,
[30:23]and I was like, what happened?
[30:25]And then I hear a literally like a champagne coke popping,
[30:29]and I was like, did I hit the list?
[30:31]And she said, yeah, you're number five.
[30:34]And I was like, and I was like, that was my dream,
[30:38]and my agent was like, I've been patched in it.
[30:40]And she was like, Amy had this dream,
[30:41]and like, everybody's, they were so sweet.
[30:44]Like, they were as happy about it as I was,
[30:46]and so they're like, okay, great,
[30:47]and they were like, you're number five,
[30:49]and then you're on the combined list,
[30:51]and I was like, wait, what?
[30:52]And like, they were like, you know, you're on the list,
[30:55]and like, and so I could barely hear them,
[30:57]and like, they were like, okay, we have to go,
[30:58]and like, they hang up, and I just like sat there,
[31:01]and then I was like, hmm, what do I do with my husband?
[31:03]Like, I don't really want to tell him,
[31:04]I don't want to call him, and so I don't do anything.
[31:07]I just like, wait, and like, he takes,
[31:09]he takes the kids to the playground,
[31:10]and I'm like, okay, how long do I have to wait?
[31:12]So, at 5.45, I like finally texted him,
[31:15]and I was like, when are you coming home?
[31:17]And he's like, we're leaving the playground,
[31:18]but we have to go to the grocery store to get dinner,
[31:20]and I was like, oh, shit.
[31:21]And so, you know, like, I'm waiting and waiting.
[31:24]And he said, what happened?
[31:25]And I just don't even respond to him,
[31:26]which I was like, not even trying to be a jerk,
[31:28]but I was like, oh, I don't want to do this.
[31:31]And so, when they finally come home,
[31:32]it had been an hour, and I have a movie set up
[31:36]for the kids, and like, 2,000 snacks.
[31:38]Like, anything in the house was like, on the table,
[31:41]and they were like, this is amazing.
[31:42]And I was like, do you want a much lion king?
[31:44]You know, and Mark's like, my husband is like,
[31:46]what are you doing?
[31:46]We have to eat dinner, and I was just like,
[31:48]we have this little garden.
[31:49]I was like, what's God's eye?
[31:50]And so, I like, I had printed out,
[31:51]they'd sent me the PDF at the list,
[31:53]so I like had printed it out, and so we sit down,
[31:55]and I said to him when he walks in,
[31:57]and I was like, oh, I haven't heard anything yet.
[31:58]And he was like, oh, and so like, we go outside,
[32:00]and he was like starting like, real,
[32:01]I make hamburgers, and it's taking forever.
[32:03]And then he finally sits down,
[32:04]and I like, had put a beer in the freezer for him,
[32:06]and I opened it, and I hand him the list,
[32:08]and he just liked it, and he was just like,
[32:10]well, how about that?
[32:11]And he's like, that was your dream.
[32:13]And I was like, I know.
[32:14]And then like, we drank like, all the wine in the house.
[32:17]He's like, it took me like three days to recover
[32:19]from that, and I've learned my lesson.
[32:21]So, yeah, it was really like, it was like,
[32:25]I think it was like one of the best moments
[32:27]that I've had in this whole, like, you know,
[32:29]I was like, I love getting married,
[32:30]and I love giving birth, but I was like,
[32:32]this is kind of all good, you know?
[32:34]But this is just amazing.
[32:37]That's awesome.
[32:38]And do you have a sense?
[32:40]I mean, I have a sense,
[32:41]because I read it, and it's amazing, and you know,
[32:43]page turning, and you know, you relate on an emotional level,
[32:45]but it's also like, you're on the edge of your seat
[32:47]and everything, but do you think there's some part of,
[32:50]is it because we all need this trap so badly,
[32:52]and your butt kind of gives us the glimpse of that,
[32:54]that you think that readers are resonating with this,
[32:56]so immediately, or what do you think?
[32:58]I think so.
[32:59]I mean, it's hard to like say what's good about the book,
[33:01]but I know, like, when I sold it,
[33:03]one of the things that was important to me,
[33:05]or when I finished it,
[33:06]I should say that on my sold it, but was that,
[33:08]I did want to write like a book that was pleasurable to read,
[33:11]that is really like this page turning sort of be treated,
[33:13]but I also wanted it to be, you know,
[33:16]I wrote it during the presidential campaign,
[33:21]and so when everything was kind of coming to light,
[33:24]and, you know, when Hillary Clinton was running,
[33:25]and the stuff that she was dealing with
[33:27]as like the female candidate,
[33:29]and so it was, it was equally important to me
[33:31]to like write something that said something,
[33:35]and I hope that that's why I mean the reviews,
[33:37]I'm trying to stay away from reading reviews,
[33:39]I've learned my lesson, but a lot of people,
[33:41]I think, who like the book are saying,
[33:42]like that it's not just this page turning thing,
[33:44]but it also like really, I think,
[33:47]women are feeling understood in what it means
[33:50]to like give birth now and to be a woman,
[33:52]you know, there's a lot of these sub-themes in the book
[33:54]where most of the women have been like,
[33:57]have had some sort of like harassment or abuse
[33:59]at the hands of like powerful men, you know,
[34:01]and they're like dealing with discrimination
[34:03]in other ways.
[34:04]And so I think that hopefully that that's the reason
[34:08]I think that, you know, it's also resonating.
[34:11]And tell me a little more,
[34:12]I know we started talking about this before,
[34:13]but about this becoming a movie
[34:15]and how long this process is taken,
[34:17]and so we sold the movie rights right after we sold
[34:20]the publishing rights to Kerry Washington,
[34:22]and Amy Pascal, and Tristar is gonna do a film.
[34:25]And so it takes a long time.
[34:28]And so right now it's in the hands
[34:29]of an incredibly skilled screenwriter
[34:31]who's doing the adaptation.
[34:33]And I'm supposed to get a draft,
[34:35]I think in a couple of weeks,
[34:36]to read like what she's done with it.
[34:38]And so, yeah, I don't know.
[34:40]It's, you know, now it's just like sort of,
[34:42]just, that to me seems like
[34:44]I'm having to put it sort of to the side
[34:46]because I don't get it.
[34:47]I don't really understand the film industry.
[34:49]And, you know, I don't know.
[34:51]I'm just, it'll be amazing if this happens.
[34:54]And then I can go and like see this on film.
[34:56]Although I have to say,
[34:57]there's the audio version of the perfect mother.
[34:59]It's amazing.
[35:00]The woman who did it is,
[35:04]like she becomes all these different voices.
[35:07]And she really captures it.
[35:08]But it's very hard for me to listen to,
[35:10]because I don't know why.
[35:12]Like my mom was over and she was listening to it.
[35:14]And I actually like was crying.
[35:16]I was like, it's so like, of course, I mean, it's a book.
[35:19]Like you could go to the airport now
[35:20]and it's in the bookstore.
[35:21]So of course it's a book.
[35:22]But like hearing somebody else sort of like take on the story.
[35:25]It was really emotional in a great way.
[35:28]So I can only imagine what it would be like
[35:31]to sort of see, you know, these characters like played
[35:35]by actresses like on the on the screen.
[35:37]And like, that next thing, I think,
[35:39]lots of, did you guys know what I'm saying?
[35:41]That will be my next, like I'm drinking my wine.
[35:44]I'll be like, I'm going to save it till then.
[35:47]And you mentioned you're writing another novel.
[35:49]What's that?
[35:49]Can you tell us what it's about?
[35:51]Yeah, it's about, what is it about?
[35:53]It's about, it sort of turns the focus from marriage
[35:56]to, I mean, motherhood to marriage.
[35:58]And it's about a newlywed couple who leave the city
[36:01]and they move upstate to the country.
[36:03]And they buy a Victorian mansion
[36:06]that was the site of the first domestic violence shelter
[36:10]and had been closed for five years
[36:12]because it was, a resident had been murdered there.
[36:15]And so they take on this house
[36:18]and he, the husband is a therapist
[36:20]and he opens up a office on the ground floor
[36:23]where he sees patients
[36:24]and she's the wife is upstairs,
[36:26]sort of managing this major renovation of the house.
[36:28]And she starts to hear voices.
[36:32]And so it's a hard book to talk about
[36:35]because there's a very early twist.
[36:37]So I'm being told that I have to stop giving it away
[36:39]because I've been talking about it.
[36:40]But it sort of, it sort of then follows
[36:44]it's another sort of quick couple of weeks story
[36:46]of like what starts to happen in this house.
[36:48]And it's not really a haunted house story,
[36:50]but there's like, there's some aspects to it.
[36:52]And then these things that have been
[36:54]that put a lot of pressure on this young marriage
[36:56]and like if it can survive.
[36:58]That's exciting.
[36:59]Yeah.
[37:00]And just the last question,
[37:01]do you have any advice to aspiring writers out there?
[37:05]Oh gosh, yeah, I keep writing.
[37:08]You know, like every day keep writing
[37:09]and whenever you can,
[37:13]I have a friend who just published
[37:15]a really beautiful book called The Ones We Choose,
[37:18]Julie Clark, and she wrote this book.
[37:21]She is a single mom of two boys.
[37:23]She is a fifth grade teacher.
[37:25]She was diagnosed with breast cancer.
[37:27]And even through all that,
[37:28]like she wakes up at four o'clock in the morning
[37:30]and like writes for three hours
[37:31]and then like goes to work and like would go to treatment
[37:34]and like come home.
[37:35]And so I'm like, okay, if she can do this,
[37:37]like we can do this and I, you know,
[37:39]and I think the best thing that I did
[37:42]is that I found this writing group that I joined
[37:45]that was very supportive
[37:47]and we're willing to tell me when things were terrible
[37:50]and, you know, and we're like willing to kind of shepherd
[37:53]like walk with me through the process.
[37:55]And I think like you think that you have to suffer
[37:58]alone as a writer and you don't, you know,
[38:00]I think the best thing that you could do is to surround yourself
[38:03]with a very trusted group of other writers
[38:05]who will, who will like be there to cheerlead you
[38:07]and also tell you when things are like absolutely terrible.
[38:12]That's fine.
[38:13]Well, thank you so much for coming.
[38:14]I was my pleasure.
[38:15]I'm starting to have time to read books.
[38:16]It was a really great conversation
[38:18]and I can't wait to see what happens with your next book
[38:20]and the movie and everything.
[38:22]So hey, you know, all right, thanks a lot.
[38:25]Thanks for listening to this episode of mom's
[38:27]don't have time to read books.
[38:28]Sponsored by Bobo Botanicals.
[38:30]Don't forget to subscribe
[38:31]and please leave a five star reading.