Gretchen Rubin, OUTER ORDER INNER CALM
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[0:34]I am so excited to be here with Gretchen Rubin today.
[0:37]One is the best-selling author of many books, including the number one New York Times
[0:41]Bestseller, The Happiness Project.
[0:43]She's also written happier at home, the four tendencies, better than before, and her latest
[0:47]book, Outer Order in her Calm.
[0:50]Her books have sold over 3.5 million copies worldwide in more than 30 languages.
[0:55]Gretchen hosts the podcast Happier with Gretchen Rubin, which she co-hosts with her sister Elizabeth
[0:59]Craft.
[1:00]She hosts video courses, has spoken at 200 plus events, including TEDx conferences,
[1:05]and has appeared in the Today Show, Oprah's Super Soul Sunday, and many other TV shows.
[1:09]A former lawyer and Supreme Court Justice Clerk to send her day O'Connor, she currently
[1:13]lives in New York with her husband and two daughters.
[1:15]So welcome, Gretchen.
[1:16]Thanks so much for coming on Monster and have time to read books.
[1:19]I'm so happy to be talking to you.
[1:21]So you've achieved so much at this point.
[1:23]Your pile of books, as sitting here next to us, you have a podcast, the books, you've spoken
[1:29]everywhere you've done all these things.
[1:30]We started as a Supreme Court Justice Clerk.
[1:33]Clerk.
[1:34]Yeah, after that gig.
[1:37]So what took you from there to this sort of new realm of self-improvement and wanting to
[1:43]help everyone else with all the things that you've learned on your own?
[1:46]Well, as you said, I started out my career in law, and so I, and for all the wrong reasons,
[1:50]all the classic mistakes, it's a great education, I'm good at research and writing, I can
[1:54]change my mind later, it's good preparation for other things.
[1:58]And so I, so I was clerking on the Supreme Court and I think that part of me always wanted
[2:02]to be a writer because I did everything that a person would do to prepare to be a writer.
[2:06]I majored in English, I always wrote tons of papers, instead of taking exams, all that
[2:11]kind of thing.
[2:12]I wrote a novel for credit in law school, that should have been a clue.
[2:15]But at that time, weirdly enough, I didn't see a place for myself in the writing world.
[2:19]So I knew I didn't want to be a novelist or a play writer or a poet.
[2:23]I knew I didn't want to be an academic writer and I knew I didn't want to be a journalist
[2:25]of any kind.
[2:27]I don't know, I just, I had always read fiction, I didn't really read nonfiction and I didn't
[2:31]think of the ways that I could write nonfiction.
[2:33]And so I just didn't see a place for myself, I think, in the writing world.
[2:37]And then when I was clerking, I had this epiphany where I was like on my lunch break,
[2:44]I'm walking around and I thought, what am I interested in?
[2:47]Did everyone else in the world is interested?
[2:49]Just sort of as a rhetorical question for my own amusement.
[2:51]And I thought, well power, money, fame, sex.
[2:54]It was like power, money, fame, sex and I became obsessed with power, money, fame, sex.
[2:58]And I started doing all this research and taking notes, which is something I do all the time.
[3:02]But this was just growing and growing and growing.
[3:04]And finally I thought, this is the kind of thing somebody would do to write a book.
[3:08]And then I thought, I could write that book.
[3:10]And then I had the idea that maybe I would try to switch to writing.
[3:13]And so I got a book from the bookstore called Something Like How to Write and Sell Your Nonfiction
[3:17]Book Proposal and just follow the directions.
[3:20]And so that was my first book, Power, Money, Fame, Sex.
[3:23]And you met my first editor, group tessal handers, who's now famous as a novelist of
[3:28]what anonymous girl and the, the way between us.
[3:32]So that's just like fun.
[3:33]And so then I wrote a biography of Winston Churchill and a biography of JFK and this weird
[3:38]art book about called Profane Waste, which is why owners destroy their own possessions,
[3:42]which is something that obsessed me in law school.
[3:45]And then I started writing the books about kind of happiness and habits.
[3:48]And from the outside, they look very different.
[3:51]But on the inside, they all feel very related to me because they're all about human nature.
[3:54]And that's really my subject.
[3:55]So I'm always looking at a different aspect of human nature.
[3:58]So to me, they all feel like of a kind, even though from the outside,
[4:01]I see that people are sort of like, there's by kind of my writing breaks in half or half of it
[4:06]is like after happiness.
[4:08]But then the other part was also about all those things as well.
[4:12]I loved the happiness project.
[4:14]I remember reading it when it came out and as like a friend's-aid mom in New York City,
[4:19]I could see myself in New York City, so you're like, I know that cross town bus.
[4:25]I've been on that guy, I've been stuck on that cross town bus.
[4:27]Yeah, it's so true.
[4:28]So my question really, you dug into this topic so deeply, right?
[4:33]Especially for the first, like let's just take the first book.
[4:35]After you wrote it, did it really help?
[4:37]Do you feel like I felt so much happier?
[4:40]All these tips have really paid off.
[4:41]You know, I think the distinction I would make is like I'm still have the same nature.
[4:45]Like if I'm lying in bed at night and I'm trying to fall asleep,
[4:47]like I've come back to the same place.
[4:49]But my experience of my life truly is so much happier.
[4:52]Like I have so much more fun.
[4:54]I have so much more adventures.
[4:55]I have more friends.
[4:57]I have more excitement.
[4:59]I make better decisions about how to use my time and my energy and my money.
[5:02]I have less things that make me feel guilty or anxious or angry or annoyed.
[5:07]I've a very kind of short temper so a lot of what I do is aimed at like being able to stay calm
[5:12]and being, you know, I feel better, yes, because I think studying it really just helped me
[5:18]understand the consequences of the kind of decisions that I was making.
[5:21]Sometimes, mindfully and sometimes unconsciously.
[5:24]So like a good example is should I get on my college reunion?
[5:27]It's like, it's kind of pain.
[5:29]I don't know who else is going.
[5:30]It's expensive.
[5:31]I'm going to have to make a hotel reservation.
[5:34]Like is it going to be fun?
[5:35]Was it that fun last time?
[5:36]And I'm like, hey, look, all the research shows and ancient philosophers agree
[5:41]relationships are key to happiness.
[5:43]Anything that runs or deep into relationships is going to make you happier.
[5:46]I should definitely go to my college reunion.
[5:48]Now, I get it that some people hate college reunions.
[5:49]Fine, but for me, I kind of like reunions.
[5:51]It's like way that in.
[5:53]And think like, is this the kind of thing that's likely to make you happier?
[5:56]And I'm like, yeah, because I'll reconnect with old friends and old memories.
[5:59]And I'll probably have a great time.
[6:01]So did you get?
[6:02]Did you?
[6:03]Oh, yeah, I get a lot.
[6:04]I started out in one class, but graduated in another class.
[6:07]So I get both of those reunions.
[6:09]Here's an important tip.
[6:10]They will let you go to any reunion as long as you pay.
[6:12]And go to any reunion you want.
[6:14]Uh, you don't have to be, it doesn't have to be your year.
[6:16]And I get a my law school reunion and my husband's law school reunion,
[6:19]because I'm surprised that so many people in his class are law school,
[6:22]like, yeah, law school is so small.
[6:23]We all, we all, we knew a lot of the same people.
[6:24]So I'm going to reun and like, and then I get in my high school reunion.
[6:28]So I can reun all the time.
[6:29]So I do like them.
[6:30]I get that some people don't like them.
[6:31]The point is just like, should you go out of the way to go to that wedding?
[6:34]Should you make the trip to see your friends new babies?
[6:37]Should you make the effort to go to the funeral?
[6:39]Should you, you know, should you show up to that after work cocktail party?
[6:42]It's like, on balance, if you're trying to decide,
[6:46]relationships tend to make people happier.
[6:48]And so in the end, that's probably going to be a good choice.
[6:50]I love this because I can be very indecisive about things like that.
[6:54]It's hard sometimes to just like asking people, what do you think?
[6:57]Well, I don't know.
[6:58]And then I usually second guess my decisions.
[7:00]Like I book the whole trip.
[7:01]And then I'm like, I don't know what's coming up.
[7:02]I know.
[7:03]I know.
[7:04]So here's another good question.
[7:05]Choose the bigger life.
[7:06]I was just going to, I was just going to bring that up.
[7:09]From your new book about how you were debating getting a dog,
[7:12]and you're like, choose the bigger life.
[7:13]And I love that because it's like, always expand, right?
[7:16]Yeah, basically.
[7:17]Because you're right, though, because you can be indecisive,
[7:20]because it's like the pros and the cons just sometimes away.
[7:22]Right.
[7:23]You know, they just balance.
[7:24]And you're like, I don't know how it's going to be massively inconvenient,
[7:26]but will it be worth it?
[7:28]I don't know.
[7:28]So choose the bigger life sometimes.
[7:30]It helps with decision making.
[7:31]I find.
[7:32]And even like, will I be glad afterwards that I win?
[7:34]Yes.
[7:35]Yes.
[7:36]Not the will it be worth the schlep?
[7:38]Yes.
[7:38]That, wait, what's that called?
[7:39]There's actually a psychological term for that.
[7:42]It's like retrospect.
[7:43]I don't know.
[7:43]I don't know.
[7:43]I don't know.
[7:44]Yeah.
[7:45]High side bias.
[7:46]I think that's something.
[7:47]Something like that.
[7:48]There is hindsight bias.
[7:50]This is something I'm going to say.
[7:51]I'm going to say, because this is like, this is like,
[7:53]there's rosy prospection, which this is not.
[7:56]I forget, but it's something.
[7:58]Yes.
[7:58]There's something to it.
[7:59]There's a word for that.
[8:01]Happier at home.
[8:02]You're next book.
[8:03]What tips can you give from that book?
[8:05]In general, for stress-busy parents,
[8:07]like the way you found yourself a while, yeah.
[8:09]Well, the first, the main point is that I think for most people,
[8:12]home is at the heart of happiness.
[8:14]And so it really is worth thinking about,
[8:16]how could you make your home more pleasant, more comfortable,
[8:19]a place of kind of, I think if you live with a family,
[8:21]it's like how do you have tenderness and affection?
[8:24]It's very easy, especially when you have little kids to like,
[8:27]sort of feel like you spent all your time like yelling and reminding
[8:31]and, you know, doing the most minor, juggling the calendar.
[8:35]It feels sort of, you know, soul crushing,
[8:37]but it has to be done perfectly.
[8:39]I feel like it's like a paralegal.
[8:40]It's not that it's hard, but it's like,
[8:42]you cannot leave that four-year-old on the street corner.
[8:45]I mean, like that, you know.
[8:46]And so it has to be done perfectly.
[8:47]So it's hard.
[8:48]So a couple of things that I learned from that book
[8:50]that really made a difference that were also
[8:52]didn't take much time, energy or money.
[8:54]One is that, and almost everything I talk about
[8:56]is something that you could do just by yourself
[8:58]with no one else's cooperation, because the sad fact is,
[9:00]you can't get other.
[9:02]You can't give people homework.
[9:03]You can't get them to do it.
[9:04]But in my case, my family, I said,
[9:07]what if we all tried to make a habit of giving each other
[9:10]really warm, halos and goodbyes?
[9:12]Because I feel like we're not acknowledging each other.
[9:14]We're just sort of staying absorbed in whatever we're doing.
[9:16]And it's kind of a lonely feeling when you come home.
[9:19]And nobody seems to really care, or when you're leaving.
[9:22]And no one seems to really notice.
[9:23]And everybody really, I have to say,
[9:24]got on board with that.
[9:26]And so now it's like, you know, you get a proper hello,
[9:28]a kiss, whoever's home comes to you.
[9:31]And then we have a dog.
[9:32]I'm like, that's the bar.
[9:33]I should be at least as happy to see my husband
[9:35]as my dog is happy to see my husband.
[9:36]But that's something you can do where it does create,
[9:40]you know, an atmosphere of tenderness,
[9:42]which I think is very nice.
[9:44]A thing that I love from the book that I'm still obsessed with
[9:47]is the sense of smell.
[9:48]Because that is a pleasure that we don't have to plan it.
[9:51]It doesn't cause anything.
[9:52]There's no calories.
[9:53]You can't bookmark it for later.
[9:55]You just have to enjoy it right now.
[9:57]But it's such a source of pleasure, if you dial in.
[10:00]into it, I actually took a perfume class at Brown Institute.
[10:03]Yeah, because I just wanted to have my appreciation
[10:07]percent heightened because it is so, like if you just ignore it,
[10:11]it says if it just goes away and if you pay attention to it,
[10:15]it can really become much more of your conscious experience.
[10:17]And it can be so wonderful.
[10:19]A friend gave me some high sense.
[10:21]And I'm like, that may be my very favorite smell in the whole world
[10:24]is the smell of high sense flowers.
[10:26]Thanks, yeah.
[10:27]This other author I had on Beth Rickonetti,
[10:30]who wrote a book called Braid at a Journey of a Thousand Hollis.
[10:32]It inspired me to start making holla on Friday.
[10:34]Oh, good.
[10:35]And the smell.
[10:36]Like forget how the bread tastes.
[10:38]Like sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't.
[10:40]But our whole month, Fridays, I haven't done it yet and it's a Friday,
[10:42]but smells just like amazing.
[10:45]Well, that's such a cozy, lovely feeling.
[10:47]Yeah, that's great.
[10:49]That's exactly right.
[10:50]Yeah, yeah.
[10:51]But now I have even more data.
[10:53]Yeah, yeah, exactly.
[10:54]So your latest book, Outer Order Inner Calm,
[10:57]gives a whole new set of tips, which I completely relate to about how
[11:00]to keep things in order.
[11:01]And I feel like, you know, you said there are different types of people,
[11:04]and it doesn't always make people feel as calm to have an uncluttered space.
[11:08]But after I've had you put that, like, took everything up
[11:10]this boat and put it in front of me.
[11:11]Yeah, okay.
[11:12]Because I was like, you know what?
[11:13]It started off blank.
[11:14]And now I had like holiday cards.
[11:16]And I know it's March.
[11:17]Yeah.
[11:18]So I'm so happy to hear that because my fantasy for this book,
[11:21]because it's written in this very playful, quick way.
[11:23]Like you can just feed through this book.
[11:25]My fantasy is that if you just read like half of it,
[11:28]you would just throw it over your shoulder and go running to a medicine
[11:31]cabinet or something.
[11:32]So the idea that you were like, I've got to clean up my bulletin board.
[11:34]That's perfect.
[11:35]That's exactly right.
[11:36]It's supposed to be after I recorded the audiobook.
[11:38]My director emailed me a picture of her office before and after.
[11:42]Because after I left, she cleaned that whole office.
[11:44]It was funny.
[11:45]Because she just heard me record.
[11:46]I was like, she even really paying attention to what I'm saying,
[11:48]or she just listening to see if I'm mispronouncing words, which I was.
[11:51]Oh, yeah.
[11:53]But good.
[11:53]Oh, I'm so excited because your bulletin board looks gorgeous.
[11:56]Oh, thanks.
[11:56]What a whole deal.
[11:57]It's just a few things.
[11:59]Excellent.
[12:00]Yeah.
[12:00]I really appreciate it also the part when you said, are you in the season of stuff?
[12:04]Yes.
[12:04]Because I have two little kids.
[12:06]I'm at it.
[12:07]I think we're officially out of the stroller now.
[12:10]For good.
[12:11]It's been in the basement for a while.
[12:12]But there's still so much little hats and gloves and just so much stuff.
[12:16]And you said, parents of young children have to deal with a lot of stuff.
[12:19]And that stuff often creates clutter.
[12:21]If you're irritated by all this clutter,
[12:22]remember, it will pass.
[12:24]Although at one time keeping a stroller in the hallway drove me crazy,
[12:26]now I think back with intense nostalgia.
[12:28]Ah, remember those days when we had a baby and a stroller?
[12:31]I know.
[12:32]It is true.
[12:33]So how do you get through it in the moment?
[12:35]If you're one of these people like me, and I think like you,
[12:37]like every function setter when things around them are in order.
[12:41]Yes.
[12:42]When you have so many external factors weighing in on you.
[12:45]Yeah.
[12:46]That is hard.
[12:47]I think that is hard.
[12:48]No, look, we had a giant plastic slide in the middle of our, yeah.
[12:51]I'm just like, oh my gosh, we can't just kind of,
[12:54]was just an irritant, you know, just in a setter place.
[12:56]One thing is, I don't know if you feel this way,
[12:59]but often the things that are precious to our children are precious to us.
[13:02]And anything that we associate with our children is precious.
[13:05]And that can make it hard for people to let go of things.
[13:07]And so maybe you have 50 stuffed animals that are just all over the apartment.
[13:12]But your child only really plays with three.
[13:14]And yet you're like, but what about this one?
[13:16]We got this at that birthday party.
[13:18]And oh, she was so excited to get this one.
[13:20]Oh, she gave this one a funny name.
[13:21]And you know, it's like each one is precious.
[13:23]But I think is, I got to get rid of things pretty quickly,
[13:26]because the longer I have them, the more sentiment it attaches.
[13:29]And then it's more deep into their early childhood.
[13:31]And so then that it has that layer.
[13:33]So I'm like, eliminate as fast as you can.
[13:35]So there was a period, my children, my two daughters are very far apart
[13:38]and aged or six years apart.
[13:39]So we, we had a lot of stuff for a long time,
[13:42]because we were like, we're just waiting for the one to get big enough to pay,
[13:44]play with like the Fisher Price farmhouse or whatever.
[13:47]And then we did a massive thing.
[13:49]And I'm like, I got to get rid of this stuff now,
[13:50]or I mean, it's going to be really, really hard to get rid of it later.
[13:53]And so let's really pick the best things,
[13:56]the things that we were going to keep forever,
[13:58]because they're that good and that precious,
[14:00]and give all the things away.
[14:02]So the season of stuff is like, stay on top of it.
[14:04]Don't let it accumulate and don't do something like,
[14:06]I'll just put it in a box and put it in the attic,
[14:08]or take it to my summer house.
[14:10]Or you know, because then it just becomes this gigantic,
[14:15]heart-festering pile of stuff.
[14:17]Or like, people who are like, I can't decide what of my child's to keep.
[14:21]So I'll just put it all in boxes and figure it out later.
[14:23]We're never going to feel like figuring it out.
[14:25]Figure it out now.
[14:25]And only keep the things that you want to keep.
[14:28]Okay, I needed that.
[14:29]I mean, I used to learn.
[14:30]I did a big purge of stuff.
[14:32]And I was a while ago.
[14:32]You did.
[14:33]But I had my son, so my son loves taking pictures.
[14:36]So then I'm going to take a picture of them.
[14:38]That's a weird way we made it.
[14:40]We made it into one of those,
[14:42]like brilliant Apple books.
[14:43]Yes.
[14:44]I had him like write little description.
[14:45]Brilliant is blah, blah, blah.
[14:46]And I got him at blah, blah.
[14:48]I just like got rid of all the stuff.
[14:51]That is brilliant.
[14:51]Except for a couple.
[14:52]But now we at least have a record of them.
[14:54]No, no, no.
[14:55]But that's all you need.
[14:56]Of course, now 100 more popped up.
[14:57]They come from everywhere.
[14:58]I don't know where all the stuff data was coming from.
[15:00]I know.
[15:00]I know.
[15:00]But at least that batch was.
[15:02]But that's a great idea.
[15:03]I think taking a picture of it also,
[15:05]because a lot of you like there's some adorable sweater or something,
[15:10]but if you take it, you don't,
[15:12]all you want is the memory that's associated with it.
[15:14]So a picture is just as good as the thing itself.
[15:16]And probably better because if it's put away,
[15:18]you're not going to get a whole bunch of clothes out,
[15:19]but you might easily flip through.
[15:21]You can be like on a Saturday afternoon.
[15:22]Oh, let's look at this book that we made together.
[15:24]Like it would be really fun.
[15:26]Yeah.
[15:26]And he could keep it forever.
[15:28]There's no way.
[15:29]But the time he goes to college,
[15:30]he's not going to have the 50 stuff,
[15:32]animal something will have happened to them at some point.
[15:34]So this way you really know that it's actually a safer way
[15:37]to safeguard the memories.
[15:38]I've also, I have six years between my older kids
[15:41]and my two little kids.
[15:42]Oh yeah.
[15:43]And I was saving all the stuff.
[15:44]Yeah.
[15:45]And after like two years,
[15:46]I was like literally four years from now,
[15:48]I'm not going to remember where I put those boots.
[15:49]Yes.
[15:50]I'm not going to, I can't keep these.
[15:51]Like by that time,
[15:52]I will buy like $20 boots from Amazon.
[15:56]And I'm not going to like have the mental energy
[15:58]of trying to track down the boots.
[16:00]Sure.
[16:00]And you won't remember it.
[16:01]I won't remember it.
[16:02]And I won't remember it.
[16:03]But also that's in the book I talk about the someday
[16:05]someone will want them to someday,
[16:08]and it's like, but will they think of it in the right time?
[16:12]And in the right place.
[16:13]I mean, this literally happened to me last night.
[16:15]Okay.
[16:15]I just read this book about outer order.
[16:16]You think my house would be outer order,
[16:18]you know, to the extreme, which it is not.
[16:20]So it's over in the middle of the night.
[16:21]I couldn't sleep with it.
[16:22]Okay.
[16:22]I'm not going to clean out our utility closet.
[16:25]And in it, there were like six giant plastic bags
[16:28]that I guess we got when we bought some in like a car seat
[16:31]or something, some huge plastic bag,
[16:33]which I had clearly kept thinking.
[16:35]These could really come in handy.
[16:36]And I looked at them and I,
[16:37]and they take up a lot of room
[16:38]because they're just these giant plastic bags.
[16:40]And I kept, and I was like,
[16:41]well, should I get rid of them?
[16:42]But they could really come in handy.
[16:43]And I was like,
[16:44]except for the fact that I have not used them
[16:46]and did not even know that they were here
[16:48]for maybe a decade, you know,
[16:49]I can get rid of these things.
[16:50]So this someday someone will want to use this giant plastic bag.
[16:54]It's like, maybe not.
[16:55]And if you've had it for a long time and never used it,
[16:57]then you know that someday someone isn't using it
[16:59]because you're not using it at all.
[17:00]The other tip that I use that you put in your book,
[17:03]I had this unfortunate experience
[17:05]of having to go through a friend of mine
[17:06]in this possession who had passed away.
[17:08]Oh, that's so hard.
[17:09]And so when I was really hard.
[17:11]But now I have this eye to my stuff.
[17:14]Like, if I'm gonna make somebody clean out this stuff
[17:17]when I die, do I want them to have to go through this?
[17:20]Like, is this worth keeping?
[17:22]And so it makes it easier to pass.
[17:24]So when I read that in your book, I was like,
[17:26]yeah, that's what I do.
[17:27]Yeah, because the fact is somebody's gonna have to deal
[17:29]with someone at some point.
[17:31]Yeah, if not.
[17:31]I mean, it won't be.
[17:32]Yeah, yeah, yeah, but still.
[17:34]Yeah, no.
[17:35]I mean, there's nothing like stuff jammed under the bed
[17:39]or like weird closets that nobody ever goes into.
[17:43]No, I mean, I think once you're grown up
[17:45]and people start losing their parents,
[17:47]it's a huge issue for some people
[17:49]because their parents have like,
[17:51]an attic basement, a two car garage,
[17:53]three bedrooms, they're in the suburbs.
[17:55]And it's just like the amount of stuff
[17:58]that can accumulate is just,
[18:00]and then it's so much to deal with at a time
[18:02]when you're really in shock and grief.
[18:04]I'm really lucky, both my parents and my in-laws, both really.
[18:08]And I think some people do this as kind of a,
[18:10]it's like a maturation thing
[18:12]where they just get to the stage
[18:13]where they just really wanna get rid of a lot of stuff.
[18:16]And so both of them really have households
[18:19]that everything is used.
[18:21]It's like, maybe they have China,
[18:23]but it's like, we actually use this at Christmas
[18:25]or here's this, there's no mystery collections of things.
[18:31]So I feel really lucky because they wouldn't.
[18:33]Yeah.
[18:34]There's nothing to sort through.
[18:35]We'd have to decide what to do with it,
[18:36]but it's not like, what is this?
[18:37]Or you know, what's the significance of this thing?
[18:39]Yeah.
[18:40]And your other tip, and I'll stop throwing all these tips back,
[18:42]but they're so useful.
[18:43]Oh, that's not having too many of one thing.
[18:46]Yeah, it's like stockpileing.
[18:47]And I get a whole new, I'm like,
[18:48]I can never find a hair thing.
[18:50]I'm just gonna buy like three goody packages
[18:52]of this thing.
[18:53]And then I'll never lose them.
[18:54]And now somehow like they all disappear
[18:56]when I have the one left.
[18:58]Yeah.
[18:59]I don't lose it.
[19:00]I don't know how that happens.
[19:01]It is strange.
[19:02]I just think that I don't lose the one.
[19:04]Yeah.
[19:05]But when I have too many, forget it.
[19:06]That's something like AirPods.
[19:07]I'm like, don't get back up pair
[19:09]because you know, never be able to find any one.
[19:11]It sounds like you have sunglasses, yeah.
[19:13]The pair of sunglasses, yeah.
[19:14]Yeah.
[19:15]No, it's funny how that is.
[19:16]There's a lot of things that are kind of counterintuitive
[19:18]where you think, oh, it'd be easier to keep track of three,
[19:20]but it's like, it's actually harder to keep track of three.
[19:22]Yeah.
[19:23]Yeah.
[19:24]It's crazy.
[19:25]Well, anyway, so the book had amazing tips.
[19:26]Oh, good, good.
[19:27]Some validated things I did.
[19:29]Some good questions, too.
[19:31]Especially like coming up with new language for things,
[19:33]like trying to make things sound better.
[19:35]Yes.
[19:36]Like, I have a zillion emails to get there.
[19:38]Yeah.
[19:38]Like, rephrase it and say like,
[19:40]it's engagement time.
[19:41]Yeah.
[19:42]I'm getting engaged with me.
[19:42]Yeah, or like, yeah.
[19:44]No, it's funny.
[19:45]It's like somebody who said,
[19:46]would you rather play piano or practice piano?
[19:48]It's like, I would rather play piano.
[19:50]That's not so much more fun.
[19:51]Yeah.
[19:51]It's all in the frame.
[19:53]It's funny.
[19:53]I mean, I'm surprised by how often the reframing really does
[19:57]affect the way people view something.
[19:59]It's just kind of crazy.
[20:00]You see.
[20:01]I feel like that's sort of the mission of all your books, right?
[20:03]Your reframing life in a way that makes it like the best version I could possibly be.
[20:08]Yeah.
[20:09]By either by analyzing it or like, you know, coming up with tips or methods or it's like
[20:14]you're categorizing.
[20:15]I do have a categorizing mind.
[20:18]Like I love to like label things and people are like, I don't like to have everything
[20:22]in a box.
[20:23]And I'm like, I like to have everything in a box.
[20:24]Yeah.
[20:25]Are you an abundance lover or simplicity lover?
[20:26]Are you an overbier or an underbier?
[20:29]Are you a morning person or a night person?
[20:30]I like, I love that kind of thing.
[20:32]Yeah.
[20:33]I feel like sometimes when things in the world are out of control, which they are.
[20:36]I don't mean today.
[20:37]I mean in general, life is out of control.
[20:38]But the things you can control, things like in your home and things in your environment,
[20:43]you're both aware.
[20:44]Like that's something that we can do that.
[20:45]Well, and that's what I feel like you empower all your readers to do.
[20:48]It's like, what's interesting because a lot of people have said, because there's kind of
[20:51]a moment just, you know, you work on a book for so long.
[20:55]You kind of don't know the moment in which your book is going to come out.
[20:58]But this is a time where people seem particularly interested in clutter clearing, which is
[21:01]fortunate for me.
[21:03]And several people have said, well, why do you think that is?
[21:05]And I think it's for exactly the reason that you say.
[21:06]I think people feel like everything's changing very fast.
[21:09]They feel very overwhelmed by kind of like information and news and just like things being uncertain
[21:15]and just feeling like there's just a lot of noise.
[21:18]And then it's sort of like, well, I can't control the world.
[21:20]I can't control the future, but I can control my bulletin board.
[21:24]And I could make that feel, make me feel calmer.
[21:26]And I think for outer order does contribute to intercalm.
[21:29]And so people are doing it as a way to just get more self mastery by feeling like, you
[21:34]know, they just feel better in their environment.
[21:36]And I, you know, sometimes people think that kind of thing is sort of selfish or self-centered.
[21:41]But in fact, what research shows and I think it's obvious from everyday life is that when
[21:44]people feel happier, more energized, more focused, then they're actually more willing
[21:50]to engage in the world and then the problems of other people.
[21:53]It's not like being happy and calm makes you want to drink margaritas on the beach.
[21:57]It makes you want to go like register people to vote, you know, when then people who are
[22:01]less happy and more stressed tend to kind of get isolated and defensive and they're just
[22:06]dealing with their own problems.
[22:07]And so the idea that it's a waste of your time to clean out your coat closet, I get
[22:11]it.
[22:12]It sounds trivial.
[22:13]I totally get that.
[22:14]And yet there is a connection where I think if somebody feels like their household is
[22:19]really what they want it to be in very calm, that would actually allow them to turn
[22:23]outward into the world more effectively.
[22:26]That's an interesting way to think of people being of service to others by first.
[22:30]It's like, you know, I mean, so many people quote to me that line about put on your own
[22:34]oxygen mask first.
[22:35]And I think the reason that people say that all this time is it like it really does work
[22:38]as a metaphor.
[22:39]People get it.
[22:40]Yeah.
[22:41]It's like you can, you know, if you're trying to hard to help other people, like everybody
[22:46]can suffer for that instead of like, first me, then you and we can both be fine.
[22:51]So I have to say your website is like the best website I've ever got so nice to hear.
[22:56]Well organized.
[22:57]Oh thank you.
[22:58]And sort like by topic of your blog, by topic of your podcast, you have quizzes, you
[23:03]have pamphlets.
[23:04]Like there's nothing you couldn't get out of this website, it's been all the time
[23:07]and I was like, I mean, it's like, are you like the architect behind the sections, like
[23:15]or maybe this goes to your need for categories that you get.
[23:18]Well, I'm so, thank you so much because, oh my gosh, a lot I have spent a lot of time
[23:22]on that.
[23:23]So when I started my blog, like I don't know, such a long time ago, maybe 14 years
[23:27]ago or I can't even remember now, I started it and I did it myself, I literally built it
[23:30]on.
[23:31]It wasn't even WordPress.
[23:32]Well, it was the other one I used, it wasn't even on WordPress at that point.
[23:35]So it was a long time ago and I built it myself and I updated it.
[23:38]But then at a certain point I'm like, I need somebody to help me design it.
[23:41]And so I feel really fortunate in that I started small and then just kind of evolved
[23:46]to a bigger and bigger stage.
[23:48]And I think one thing about all the social media stuff is sometimes when you're coming
[23:51]in new and you see what people have built, you're like, oh my gosh, I have to do that.
[23:55]Like it seems just so overwhelming and how could I do this and this and this and how
[23:59]all this going.
[24:01]And the fact is for something like my website, it's really gone through eight major
[24:05]redesigns and that each time building with so much content and so much stuff already built
[24:11]in.
[24:12]And so, but it is horrible every time.
[24:14]It's like renovating your kitchen, it's right.
[24:17]What's the latest thing?
[24:19]What are we trying to accomplish here?
[24:20]What's different from what it was in the past?
[24:23]What do people coming in from the outside expect?
[24:25]It's really, really, really hard to do.
[24:27]But I feel like because I'm always building on something that's already been mostly
[24:32]done, it's a lot easier than it would be if I had just decided like starting tomorrow,
[24:36]like I should just build all these resources.
[24:39]It's also great how you link within each thing.
[24:41]So like you'll have a blog post and you'll reference a quote from one of your podcasts.
[24:46]It's like so great.
[24:47]It's just like the whole thing is like in mesh, it's like this web of like a
[24:52]creative and content in every way.
[24:53]It's like a really interesting.
[24:54]That's so great.
[24:55]That's so nice to hear.
[24:56]Well, I think it's my legal journey because one thing is a lawyer that they teach you just
[24:58]have to have a citation for everything.
[25:00]So I'm constantly feeling like I need to be like, that's where I said that.
[25:03]That's where that is.
[25:04]You can look up this term here.
[25:05]Yeah.
[25:06]Yeah.
[25:07]Oh, that's funny.
[25:09]No one's commented on the site in a long time.
[25:11]Oh, I didn't appreciate it.
[25:13]I have to tell the people who helped to like designed it because a lot of stuff on your
[25:19]site.
[25:20]It shows that you're selling two things that I wanted to ask you about.
[25:22]One is the happiness project.
[25:24]One sentence journal for mothers and the other is the 21 day project stop yelling at
[25:28]my kids.
[25:29]Oh, yeah.
[25:30]Okay.
[25:31]So tell me what those are.
[25:32]So the one sentence journal for mothers.
[25:33]So one of the things I found in the happiness project is that a lot of people have a desire
[25:37]to keep a journal.
[25:38]There's sort of like a very strong impulse and a lot of people to keep a journal.
[25:42]But I know that feeling and then I have the thing that many people have, which is like
[25:46]by week two of January, you've stopped keeping your journal, you know, you like love buying
[25:50]going out and buying it and starting it and then you don't keep it.
[25:53]And so the one set the idea of the one sentence journal is that you can just write one
[25:56]sentence.
[25:57]And one sentence turns out is enough to kind of scratch that itch and then also one sentence
[26:00]brings back a lot.
[26:01]It's like looking at one photograph can kind of bring back a whole host of memories.
[26:06]If you write a sentence, I think it works even more.
[26:08]So the one sentence journal for mothers is because after I created a general one sentence
[26:12]journal, that a lot of people were saying, oh, I'm using this kind of in my family
[26:16]life.
[26:17]I'm like writing down a funny thing.
[26:18]My kid says or I'm writing down a highlight of the day or I'm keeping it for a child,
[26:21]thinking like, I'm going to give this to him when he goes to college or it somehow was
[26:25]related to their identity as a mother.
[26:28]And so we thought, oh, we'll create one that's just for mothers.
[26:31]And it's so fun because when I go in book tour, a lot of times people will bring me and
[26:34]show me them and you can see like the different ink on different days and how sometimes
[26:38]their handwriting is kind of changing and so that's really fun.
[26:41]So that's the one sentence journal for mothers.
[26:44]It's kind of a keepsake thing.
[26:45]And then the 21 day project is because I do love like 21 days.
[26:51]It's what a lot of people said because I'm always like, what's your happiness stumbling
[26:54]block?
[26:55]Like what's dragging you down?
[26:56]A lot of people say like I spend too much time yelling at my kids.
[26:59]I want to be more patient.
[27:00]I want to build systems so that we don't have to have all this screaming and shouting.
[27:05]I don't want to feel like so drained that I have nowhere with all that I can keep my sense
[27:10]of humor.
[27:11]And so this is a project where you can sign up for it.
[27:14]And then every day for 21 days, it's like one tip of something to think about.
[27:19]And it's all things that you can do without a lot of time energy or money, which most
[27:23]people feel like they don't have enough time energy or money.
[27:26]So it's just very practical ideas to help you manage your self more, whether that's
[27:31]something like getting more sleep yourself, either friend who's got a very, very big job
[27:35]as a journalist.
[27:36]And she said she works really long hours.
[27:39]And she was saying like one of the most important times of her day was her was the morning
[27:42]with her sons because she often didn't see them very much at night except on the weekends
[27:47]she would always be with them.
[27:49]But during the day, the morning was actually her most kind of intense time with her
[27:52]sons.
[27:53]And she said they just spent all the time yelling and complaining.
[27:56]And she realized what she needed to do was get up a half an hour earlier.
[27:59]So she could have her coffee, get dressed in a leisurely way, kind of let her self wake
[28:06]up because she realized she was scrambling, they were scrambling, you know.
[28:11]And then when she was up a half an hour, then by the time they got up, then she was ready
[28:15]to just kind of help and chat.
[28:18]And that one little thing that wasn't very hard for her to do, for some people that would
[28:22]be really hard to get up a half an hour earlier, for her it wasn't that wasn't the
[28:25]problem.
[28:26]And she said it's completely transformed her relationship with her children because they
[28:30]just had such a more peaceful engagement on the just a day to day basis.
[28:35]It's not like they were, you know, it's not like something that would haunt them for
[28:37]their whole lives.
[28:38]It was just a pain.
[28:39]It was a bad way to start the day with your mom yelling at you or yelling at your kids.
[28:44]This book had to be a happier parent.
[28:45]Thank you, Jay Delling.
[28:46]Yeah, you did.
[28:47]Yeah.
[28:48]Yeah.
[28:49]There was some similar.
[28:50]Yeah.
[28:51]Well, that was, yeah.
[28:52]Oh my gosh, yeah.
[28:53]She's got a lot going on.
[28:54]I'm like, that's paranormal.
[28:55]Yeah.
[28:56]No, she's very much unlike man, just like keep it to a place where you can stay calm.
[29:01]I feel like this would be a good Mother's Day gift.
[29:03]This one's for moms.
[29:04]Oh, yeah.
[29:05]It's good.
[29:06]Doc up on those.
[29:07]It's fun.
[29:08]It is my mom friends.
[29:09]So what is coming next week?
[29:10]You have this book coming out.
[29:11]Yeah.
[29:12]You're going on tour soon.
[29:13]I'm going on tour, which I love.
[29:15]I love some writers don't like to go on tour.
[29:18]But I love getting to meet people.
[29:21]And we also, so I don't have a podcast with my sister called Happier with Gretchen Rubin
[29:24]and we have four live events coming up, which is very exciting.
[29:28]So we've done two before, but this is like a tour.
[29:30]And we have like a tour manager, so we're feeling extremely official.
[29:33]Wow.
[29:34]Yeah.
[29:35]So that's fun.
[29:36]Wow.
[29:37]And I did a pledge show for W-E-T-A.
[29:38]I just recorded that.
[29:39]So that'll be fun.
[29:40]That's coming out in June.
[29:41]That was a whole new thing to do.
[29:43]So that was exciting.
[29:44]Awesome.
[29:45]Yeah.
[29:46]Just what you have for aspiring writers.
[29:49]Ah.
[29:50]So my advice is to know what you want to say.
[29:54]Because this seems like a very obvious thing, but often people want to write, but they
[30:00]don't really know exactly what they're gonna say.
[30:01]And then it's very, very hard to write.
[30:03]But if you, and whenever you feel kind of stuck,
[30:06]if you just get very, just like go for a walk
[30:08]and then what am I trying to communicate?
[30:09]And then even just write down
[30:11]what you're trying to communicate,
[30:13]that is makes it much, much easier.
[30:14]Whenever I'm having trouble writing,
[30:16]it's usually because I don't really know what I wanna say
[30:17]and I'm just trying to kind of fake my way through it.
[30:19]Another thing, this is for aspiring writers, right?
[30:22]Yeah.
[30:23]One thing that I feel something else is.
[30:24]I don't know, but there's this one thing I've noticed
[30:26]and I would be curious if you've run into this too.
[30:29]More often than I would expect,
[30:31]and this isn't for fiction writers,
[30:33]this is a non-fiction writer
[30:34]because I'm a non-fiction writer.
[30:35]I'll meet somebody who I don't really know.
[30:37]So, you know, I'm starting to talk to them
[30:38]and they're like, oh, I'm gonna write a book about XYZ
[30:41]and I read a lot and I will often be like,
[30:43]oh, is it like this book or, you know,
[30:46]what about that book and how does it relate it?
[30:47]And they're like, oh, I know, I don't know about that book.
[30:50]If you are writing a book and non-fiction,
[30:51]you should acquaint yourself with the other books
[30:54]that are kind of related to your book
[30:56]and either read them or have a view of them or know them
[30:59]but if someone is speaking to you about your own subject
[31:02]and you have not read the like obvious books about it,
[31:05]it's like you don't have to read something
[31:06]from the 14th century,
[31:07]but if a book came out three years ago in your subject
[31:09]and you haven't read it,
[31:10]it just makes you seem unprofessional, unprepared
[31:14]and not curious and what you want
[31:16]from somebody who's written a book
[31:17]is somebody who's just like loves their subject so much
[31:19]that they just can't get enough of it.
[31:21]If you're like, you can't be bothered to read a book
[31:22]that was the bestseller three years ago,
[31:24]I just question like, how sincere your interest is
[31:27]in your subject and therefore how deep your thoughts
[31:29]your perception and your analysis is going to be.
[31:31]So read and think about what you want to say.
[31:34]Awesome.
[31:35]Excellent. Well, thank you for coming on Mom's
[31:37]no time to read books.
[31:38]Only appreciate it.
[31:39]Yeah, there's so much fun to talk to you too.
[31:41]Today's episode was sponsored by cereal box.
[31:44]S-E-R-I-A-L-B-O-X dot com, cerealbox.com,
[31:48]delivering addictive book content in short listen
[31:50]or read installments.
[31:52]Thanks to Ryan and Steve at Texture Sound
[31:54]for the audio editing and mixing.
[31:55]Thanks for listening.
[31:56]Mom's don't have time to read books.