Nora McInerny, NO HAPPY ENDINGS

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[0:33]I am so thrilled to be interviewing Nora McInerney, who is the author of two memoirs.

[0:38]It's okay to laugh, crying is cool too, and no happy endings.

[0:41]She's the founder of the nonprofit Still Kickin' in memory of her husband Aaron,

[0:45]who passed away from brain cancer at age 35. She also founded the Hot Young Widows Club.

[0:50]Graduate of Xavier University, Nora has contributed to many publications,

[0:54]including Elle Cosmopolitan, Box, and Time Magazine.

[0:57]She's also the host of the podcast Terrible, Thanks for Asking.

[1:00]She currently lives in Minneapolis with her husband and children.

[1:03]Hi, Nora. How are you?

[1:04]Hi, how's it going?

[1:05]Thanks for coming on mom's. Don't have time to read books.

[1:08]Hey, no problem. You and your me, okay? Yes, she's noisy in here.

[1:11]No, it's great. Can you can you hear me, okay?

[1:13]I can. It's wonderful. Excellent.

[1:16]Well, I'm so honored that you agreed to come on mom's time to read books,

[1:19]because I'm really such a huge fan of you and your writing,

[1:23]and still kick in and basically everything that you're doing.

[1:25]So thank you for taking the time.

[1:27]Thank you. It's super fun. I'm glad we finally get you

[1:30]to talk and thank you for being so flexible.

[1:32]Those are longer as we're getting snowed in every other day here.

[1:35]So my kids basically have not had a full week of school since winter break.

[1:41]Oh my gosh. It's like either there's like a random day off.

[1:45]There's a teacher in service or it was a snow day like yesterday.

[1:48]Oh, yeah, they keep that.

[1:50]We've been scheduled this for yesterday or would have been like me, like yelling.

[1:56]That's funny. No, I get it. They keep shortening my kid's school days

[1:58]just to make all the logistics really confusing.

[2:00]But anyway, it's good. It's very helpful.

[2:04]Well, can we talk a little about your books?

[2:06]Yeah, I'd love to.

[2:07]Your latest book, No Happy Endings, is just amazing.

[2:10]I mean, I really, I just couldn't put it down.

[2:12]I felt like I was just sitting talking to you or something.

[2:14]It was, it was amazing.

[2:16]At the beginning of your book, you had the funniest little thing in your introduction.

[2:19]You said, wait, you may be thinking with an eye roll at the ready.

[2:22]Is this entire book going to be about this lady complaining about how sad she is

[2:26]that she got to fall in love twice?

[2:27]Well, no, that's not what the entire book is about.

[2:30]And then you say, then you say, I'm happy, but I don't have my perfect Hollywood ending

[2:35]because it isn't always happy and it isn't the end.

[2:38]This is life after life after life in all of the chaos and contradiction of feelings and

[2:42]doings and beings involved.

[2:44]There will be unimaginable joy and incomprehensible tragedy.

[2:46]There will be endings, but there will be no happy endings.

[2:50]Oh, I mean, if that doesn't make someone want to read a book, I don't know what does.

[2:54]Thank you.

[2:56]Thank you.

[2:56]So for people who might not know your story and what your books are really about,

[3:02]the gist of them, so to speak, can you tell listeners a little more about your background

[3:06]and what may you even start writing your two memoirs?

[3:08]Yes, my good golly.

[3:11]It's, I mean, so everything that I ever, every time I have to say sort of the origin story

[3:16]of my writing, I just have to preface it with, I'm going to have to leave a pause for like the

[3:21]uh moment, which is that in tell about November 2014, I was just a lady in her early 30s

[3:31]working in marketing and advertising and going every day to my office job and making power points

[3:41]and being very highly stressed about, I'm not even sure what there were a lot of emergencies.

[3:46]And in November 2014, my husband Aaron died after three years of brain cancer and six weeks

[3:54]before that my father died of just I guess regular cancer, just sort of a general cancer of

[4:00]the everything and then five days before that I had lost our second pregnancy Aaron and I had

[4:06]been hoping to have another baby and yeah, I lost it like 11 weeks and six days.

[4:13]It's just a root of it where you're like, no, no, no, like no, it's no because tomorrow would be

[4:19]so now this can't happen like it would have if I could have made it one more day, it would have

[4:24]been impossible, which is is of course false, but that's what it feels like and I my first memoir is

[4:30]called it's okay to last crying as pull two and is really, I mean, it's a love story, it was written

[4:35]in the six months after Aaron died, so it is a story told from the chaos of that grief, which

[4:42]I'm very grateful that I got to do because I know that there are a lot of really, really helpful

[4:47]books books that I've loved that were written from a distance, right? Like from a certain amount

[4:52]of time past the event, which does give you a different perspective, but being in something is

[4:57]a perspective too. So this book, No Happy Endings is written in it in the blending of my family as

[5:05]it currently stands. I have a living husband now, his name is Matthew, it's combined, we have

[5:13]four children in our family and it is wonderful. I always wanted four kids and I have them and I

[5:20]do not have them the way that I thought I would have them and I do know and part of that first sentence

[5:26]that you read, that I'm incredibly lucky and that I am also incredibly unlucky and that is what

[5:34]makes me so boring and so human, that all of these things that happen to us that are so extraordinary

[5:41]are also completely ordinary. This is life doing what it does, which is breaking our hearts.

[5:47]And any moment that things are not terrible, I now know, like that's a good day. My definition of

[5:54]a good day has definitely changed. So this memoir is, you know, I started writing it really when

[5:59]I never stopped writing after the first book came out and I started writing this one as soon

[6:04]as I turned in the other one and in that I met Matthew and we had a baby and we got married

[6:13]in that order and we built this family and our family is so wonderful and also our family came

[6:19]from two broken places that took a divorce and a death to make this family. So we have a beautiful

[6:25]thing that came from two really, really difficult traumatic events. And I think that's true of most

[6:32]of us that we have these really beautiful things and we have to hold them alongside these really

[6:36]difficult things that we've gone through or will continue to go through.

[6:40]I'm going to argue that your life is not boring, especially after, I mean, I was like,

[6:46]I was like, did I hear her right? Did she describe her life as boring? I mean, I understand what

[6:51]you're saying. Of course, these things happen, but that doesn't make it. I mean, it's still

[6:56]quite a story and it's so amazing for you to have shared it. And I think that the fact that you

[7:01]did it while you were in it is just so compelling. I mean, just to feel everything you were going

[7:05]through, especially knowing how helpful it is to other people, right? I mean, thank you.

[7:08]Yeah, I honestly didn't know what else to do to get through things, honestly. Like it's,

[7:14]I definitely could have waited and I think if I wrote this book or my other book, if I wrote

[7:19]them in 10 years, it would be very, very different books because I think the edges would be dulled

[7:23]a little. So you started writing a blog when Aaron was sick. Is that just when you started writing

[7:28]to process everything? No, I think I've always been, I mean, I'm sitting in my office, which used to

[7:34]be our family's dining room until we realized, we used to be room. Like, no, no, no, this is now,

[7:40]this is now mom's office and the doors are always shut. But I'm sitting here on this office with

[7:45]boxes and boxes of my old journals from childhood. And I was always documenting and I was

[7:53]always writing and I was always processing things that way. It definitely took a back burner when I

[8:00]was in my mid 20s and I was working all the time. I was working all the time and I was like,

[8:07]what would I, I mean, once right what I have to say, I'm like, who cares? I don't even have,

[8:13]I don't even have a light because all I do is work. And if anything, I don't have anything to say,

[8:18]I'm, I'm so bored of myself. And I met Aaron and, and he was like, you're really funny. Like,

[8:24]we would text and not even text. We would G chat. This was like 2011. So we would G chat all day.

[8:30]And he was like, you're so good writer. But thank you. Thank you. And writing was a part of my job,

[8:36]but it wasn't in my job title. And so I always felt sort of self-conscious about it is if I were

[8:41]baking that part of my life. And I started writing for a few really small websites. And Aaron was

[8:48]so encouraging. And he read everything I wrote, even when they were, you know, stories about my

[8:53]dating life from before I had met him. And I did not think, you know, oh, like Aaron got sick. And it's

[9:01]not as if the first thing I did was start a blog about it. And I definitely didn't want to have

[9:08]a cancer blog, but anybody who has been somebody's person during a tragedy, during a trauma,

[9:15]knows that it's really hard to get all of the information to all of the people. And I started with

[9:21]an email list. And I was always forgetting something important, like one of my brothers,

[9:25]always the same brother, by the way, I'm so sorry often. Like, confidently, he would be like,

[9:29]what, Aaron's having another brain surgery. I'm like, oh, shit, you weren't on the email.

[9:34]So hard to manage that. And I also, at the time, I was writing every day in a journal. I was writing,

[9:40]I still find like notebooks that have bits and pieces of our life in the hospital from that first

[9:45]week. And I made a tumbler again, 2011, a tumbler. And I, it was private. It was cast word protected as if

[9:54]anyone would find like my secret feelings and care. And just our family read it. And

[10:00]then more people started asking for the past or nine,

[10:01]locked in and that became kind of how I updated people

[10:05]and what was happening, but also how I just dealt with it.

[10:10]And Aaron, I would write everything.

[10:13]And Aaron would read everything.

[10:14]And so I was never telling his story of telling

[10:18]the side of the story that was mine to tell

[10:21]and only with his approval.

[10:23]But Aaron and I did write his obituary together

[10:25]and that went viral when he died in 2014.

[10:29]And that is how my literary agent found me.

[10:31]So whenever people are like, how do I get an agent?

[10:34]I'm like, I don't know.

[10:35]I guess you could hope that your husband dies

[10:37]and you too write a viral obituary together.

[10:40]But other than that, I don't have any tactical advice

[10:43]for you.

[10:44]So unfortunately, and I'm so sorry.

[10:46]I feel bad even laughing at that.

[10:47]I feel like I can't even, oh my goodness.

[10:51]You mentioned in no happy endings

[10:53]that after all the stuff you've gone through,

[10:54]you've now found yourself drawn to people

[10:57]who tell you the truth when you ask who they are,

[10:59]who've also experienced hard things.

[11:01]And as you said, who had also walked through the fire.

[11:03]Can you tell me a little more about that?

[11:05]Can you sort of sus people out and tell

[11:08]what they've, you know, when they're on the same wavelength?

[11:11]I mean, yeah, I think once you've gone through something difficult,

[11:14]you can tell if somebody is going to be able

[11:16]to handle it or not.

[11:17]And I also have to say that I was in the latter groups

[11:20]for most of my life.

[11:21]I was definitely a person who would ask how you were

[11:25]and just, if you gave me any answer other than sign,

[11:27]I would just sort of sit there awkwardly

[11:29]and not know what to say.

[11:30]But once you've gone through something difficult

[11:33]or in the middle of something difficult,

[11:34]if you just don't want to be us, anybody anymore.

[11:38]And do you sort of almost accidentally

[11:41]or sort of unintentionally, I should say,

[11:43]find yourself gravitating towards people

[11:46]that you can just tell something about them,

[11:49]like they are in it or they've gone through it

[11:51]and they will get it.

[11:53]So my social circle did change a lot.

[11:56]And I think that's something that a lot of people struggle with

[12:00]after they've lost somebody that they love

[12:02]is that huge, huge shift in their social world.

[12:07]And that's really, really painful.

[12:09]And what I want to say is that it's okay.

[12:11]Like it's okay.

[12:12]And sometimes people leave so that the right people

[12:16]can take their place.

[12:18]That's beautiful.

[12:19]I went through a period of a lot of loss in my life

[12:21]as well when I was 25.

[12:22]I lost five people really close to me,

[12:24]including my best friend on 9.11 and college roommate.

[12:27]And I feel like since that year, my whole life,

[12:30]my perspective on everything has changed.

[12:32]And so when someone I know loses a parent

[12:35]or something like that,

[12:36]I'm the first one to be like, you know what?

[12:37]Yes, you do still email, you do still call,

[12:39]like people check their email through whatever is going on.

[12:42]Just show up, do this step, right?

[12:44]People are like, oh, I don't want to bother them.

[12:46]Like really, anyway.

[12:47]What do you think said in this is like,

[12:48]it's just like an all-encompassing,

[12:50]like little sleeping bag you zip yourself into.

[12:52]No, the world keeps turning.

[12:54]They still need milk.

[12:55]Right, exactly.

[12:57]They still got to do stuff.

[12:58]And I also, I feel for you because 25 very, very few

[13:03]people gone through anything.

[13:04]And I can only imagine how isolating that must have been

[13:07]because I mean, I had a very good friend who lost his father

[13:12]when we were 27 and I went to the funeral

[13:14]and then that was it.

[13:15]And never brought his dad up again, never.

[13:18]Yep, that's the other, that's like,

[13:19]I thought that was the right thing to do.

[13:21]Right, as if like, I'm not going to be thinking about these

[13:23]people, like, you're going to bring it up.

[13:24]And that's going to make me sad.

[13:25]Not the loss of the person I love, right?

[13:28]Or like, I'll bring it up and you'll be like,

[13:30]I forgot my dad was dead, so thanks a bunch.

[13:33]Right, okay.

[13:35]I mean, wow, wait a room my day.

[13:37]Unfortunately, I think, you know, I think most people

[13:40]have a first do-no harm sort of mentality about loss, right?

[13:44]Like, they just don't want to mess something up.

[13:46]So I think people often, you know, maybe don't do enough.

[13:50]Anyway, I don't know, I could go on forever, but yeah.

[13:52]That's a really, that's a really generous outlook.

[13:54]I like that.

[13:56]So in no happy endings, you have so much great stuff in there

[13:59]about, like, even if there had been no loss,

[14:02]just the fact of the blended arrangement of your family

[14:05]would be just a hilarious book in and of itself.

[14:08]Anyway, you write, we do not choose our parents.

[14:10]We do not choose whether their marriage is last

[14:12]or when they end.

[14:13]And we do not choose whether or not our parents fall in love

[14:15]again.

[14:16]In short, being a child totally sucks

[14:18]and nothing is in our control.

[14:19]These kids have seen love die and seen love grow.

[14:22]And I want them all to know that love is a choice

[14:24]that we make and a job that we do.

[14:25]We choose each other every day.

[14:27]And then you said, I've stepped into this life

[14:28]as a mom, as a step-mom.

[14:30]I'm still walking, stepping lightly, often tripping,

[14:33]sometimes falling.

[14:34]Is it as easy as it looks on Instagram?

[14:36]Yes, and no, but it's so damn worth it.

[14:38]That was so great.

[14:40]Thank you.

[14:41]I'm just going to sit and read your whole book out loud.

[14:43]You know, that's basically-

[14:44]I'm so glad, because I've completely forgotten writing

[14:46]it at this point, because you just look at it so much.

[14:48]And then you hand it off.

[14:49]And you're just like, I can't see it again.

[14:52]And you were reading that.

[14:52]And I was like, yeah, wow, good.

[14:54]So thank you for reminding me of my book.

[14:56]It's good.

[14:57]Thank you.

[14:58]Glad I could give up.

[15:00]Yeah.

[15:00]Anytime you need a peptide, you just call me.

[15:02]I'll read you another passage.

[15:03]I absolutely will accept your number came up as restricted.

[15:06]So you're going to need to text me after this.

[15:09]We'll do a full contact info.

[15:11]Thank you.

[15:12]I love parenting in all of its forms.

[15:16]And I love it.

[15:17]I mean, sometimes I think, what have I done?

[15:21]And can I escape?

[15:24]Like, how much gas is in my tank?

[15:26]Could I make it to Mexico?

[15:28]And also, I just look at all these kids

[15:30]and I think, how cool.

[15:33]Like, how cool that we get to do this.

[15:36]And that we get to show them what love is and what it can do,

[15:40]which is, I think, that the grind of guaranteed

[15:44]and the grind of marriage, and I mean,

[15:45]it is a grind to have a family.

[15:48]There are moments where you just feel so light and fluffy

[15:53]and everything yesterday, there was a snow day.

[15:56]We were all laying in bed watching a terrible movie

[15:59]by kids, no offense, but it does not stand the touch of time.

[16:02]No offense, children who all love it, by the way,

[16:07]was like, oh, greatest movie after the 12-year-old.

[16:10]Oh, this movie, five-year-old in complete attention

[16:13]to your old, like, this went catatonic.

[16:15]Love this movie.

[16:16]And like, there are those moments

[16:18]where you just think, oh my gosh,

[16:19]what could be better than this?

[16:20]But most of it is like a very complicated relay race,

[16:25]where, you know, like, okay, I'll get this kid at this time,

[16:27]which one of you is gonna actually eat this dinner

[16:29]that I spent time making, and you didn't do your poop.

[16:32]It's just so much, and you're managing

[16:35]for other human lives and all of their emotions.

[16:39]And I think it's very easy to forget

[16:43]that these kids are learning love from you.

[16:48]And you can teach them, like, through your actions,

[16:52]like, how big love is or how small love is.

[16:56]And you can teach them that love is possession

[16:59]and that there's only so much to go around.

[17:01]And if you love this person, that means you love another person less.

[17:04]And I think we'd also be surprised

[17:06]how pervasive that action is around us.

[17:10]And you can also teach them that it is complicated

[17:14]and that it is work and that that's okay.

[17:18]Yeah, I literally said something similar to my five-year-old

[17:21]daughter.

[17:21]I have four kids also.

[17:22]And I said something similar to my five-year-old daughter

[17:23]yesterday, because she had a friend come over

[17:25]and she's like, I don't know.

[17:26]I think maybe my friendship bucket is filled for today.

[17:29]And I was like, it doesn't work like that.

[17:31]It's like, love, you can't have enough friends.

[17:34]Like, you don't fill up on friends and not have any more room.

[17:36]There's always room for more friends.

[17:38]There's always room for more love.

[17:39]It's just not the way it goes, so.

[17:41]You'll just make more.

[17:42]Yeah.

[17:43]And I have, like, my five-year-old is me as a child.

[17:46]Like, very, very concerned that there won't be enough.

[17:51]Like, there won't, like, that he is somehow not as loved

[17:55]and all of them have that, right?

[17:56]They all came from minus his baby.

[17:59]It was just sort of born in his family.

[18:01]Like, they all really do need that assurance

[18:04]that they have a specific place in the world

[18:08]and in this family.

[18:09]How do you do that?

[18:10]It's so hard, but it's, I mean, I also do try to explain

[18:14]and verbalize, like, my own feelings to the kids as well.

[18:18]So they can see it's not as if dad and I know absolutely

[18:22]the best way to do everything all of the time.

[18:25]They don't care if all I don't do.

[18:27]We don't overbird in the children, but I do want them to know.

[18:30]Like, I will say out loud, like, you said to your five-year-old,

[18:33]like, it doesn't work that way.

[18:35]Like, it doesn't work that way.

[18:36]I want you to repeat after me.

[18:38]Like, my sister loves me, my brother's love me,

[18:40]my mom loves me.

[18:41]Okay?

[18:42]We're all on the same team.

[18:43]That's good.

[18:44]I like that much.

[18:45]I'm going to steal that.

[18:46]And I want to, yeah.

[18:47]And I say to you, like, I also have to really remember

[18:51]every day to thank the kids for the things that they do,

[18:54]like, for our family.

[18:56]Oh, like, thank you.

[18:57]Thank you.

[18:58]Oh, my gosh, you, you emptied the dishwasher.

[19:00]Thank you.

[19:01]That is awesome.

[19:02]I appreciate.

[19:02]Like, everybody wants to feel appreciated

[19:05]and everybody wants to feel like they have a place.

[19:08]And I think really our biggest insecurity as humans

[19:11]is like, maybe we don't.

[19:14]And so the things that you think are obvious as an adult

[19:16]are really never that obvious.

[19:18]Like, how many reassurances do you need

[19:20]as a person every day?

[19:21]I need a lot.

[19:22]Yeah.

[19:24]More than one, I want to do it.

[19:25]I want to stay at it sometimes and I'm like,

[19:26]tell me I'm not, tell me I'm not a failure.

[19:28]You had another great line at the end of the book.

[19:32]You said the worst that can happen isn't that I die.

[19:35]I'm going to die.

[19:36]It's spending our time here trying to avoid the depths of misery

[19:40]and in the process, missing out on the climb to happiness.

[19:42]It's spending our time in the middle being alive without living,

[19:45]which is very inspiring.

[19:47]So what do you think?

[19:47]How can we avoid this?

[19:49]How can we like wake people up so that they

[19:51]know not to do that, not to just sort of passively watch

[19:54]things go by?

[19:55]I think it's so different for everybody.

[19:57]And I think I also want to be so clear.

[20:00]that I'm not promoting this sort of frenetic internet energy that I think is very easy to get swept

[20:08]up in, like be a boss, like do your own thing, quit your job, follow your dreams, blah, blah,

[20:14]that's a path for some people that's not a path for everybody, but I am talking about

[20:21]not waiting for the absolute perfect conditions, which will never arrive and not trying to

[20:28]avoid any negative consequence. And it sounds almost silly. Like, well, who does that? Well,

[20:34]I get messages constantly all day on whatever, whatever email or DM's or whatever, where people

[20:41]are so sure that they're going to make me wrong choice, that they just can't make a choice.

[20:48]What if I quit my job and the next job is worse? And it's like, well, if you were in a position

[20:53]where you can even consider quitting your job, like trust me, you have enough privilege to

[20:57]find another one. It's okay. So you will. You will do that. You could trust that not every decision

[21:03]is going to necessarily lead you to the very, very best place, but that you can learn and grow

[21:11]from wherever you end up. So I would never have, like, I mean, truly, I would never have in a million

[21:17]years found Matthew on the internet. I would not, you know, like, he was on there for sure,

[21:24]but I was not going to set my settings to divorced father of two who is five, 11 on a good day,

[21:33]on a good day with his shoes on. Like, there's no way. So we have these ideas of the things that we

[21:38]want or the way, and not just what we want, but how we'll get there. And I have, on paper,

[21:46]everything I want it. I am a writer. That's my job. I have four kids. That was always what I wanted

[21:52]since I was a little kid. I have a really, really big loss, and I got another one too. That's

[21:59]even more than I ever dreamed of. I did not get here the way that I thought I would, but that doesn't

[22:04]mean that here is not a good place to be. That's a great way to look at it. Tell me if you don't mind,

[22:08]if we switch gears for one sec, I know we're almost out of time, but I want to hear a little more

[22:12]about your podcast. Terrible thanks for asking, which of course I've listened to and is amazing,

[22:17]although sometimes I have to turn it off because I'm like, some episodes just get to me a little too

[22:21]much. But what gave you the idea to make it into a podcast? And how do you enjoy it? How much time

[22:28]does it take? Take a lot of time. That is a full-time job. You make a podcast. I do. It sounds like

[22:37]it shouldn't take any time at all. I don't know why it sounds like that. It just seems like,

[22:42]yeah, it's just what you're just talking. Yeah, right. No, you're not. There's so many other things.

[22:47]And I do have just a fantastic production team, which is great, but it was just me and Hans

[22:52]Buto for two years, two years, just the two of us. So the podcast, the title was a rejected book title

[23:00]for my first memoir because I thought it was too negative for a book about my husband.

[23:05]Oh my gosh. I think it's so funny. And I also think it's perfect because it's such a good,

[23:10]it perfectly fits the podcast that I know that I have been guilty of,

[23:15]answering the most common question that we ask or answer in our lifetime has got to be,

[23:20]how are you? Like, how are you? It's here in America. It's a small talk.

[23:24]Yeah. And we say, oh, it's fine. Yeah, fine. Thank you. And I would say sign even when Aaron was like

[23:30]at home dying. And I was at the grocery store getting a case of red gatorade because that's the

[23:36]only thing that he could drink. I mean, yeah, good. Never been better. So yeah, yeah, you shouldn't

[23:40]dumble your personal problems. That was the checkout person at your supermarket. But I would tell

[23:46]everybody that I was fine. And I was also simultaneously because of the writing that I was doing,

[23:53]getting so many messages from so many people all around the world who were not fine for various

[23:58]reasons and who had all told their friends and family that they were fine or whose friends and

[24:04]family had stopped asking because like you said, they were of the, you know, first you know harm

[24:08]mentality where, you know, like, if I don't see anything, then I can't say the wrong thing.

[24:14]Exactly. So all of these people were reaching out to a complete stranger just to feel heard

[24:19]and just to feel like what they were going through was real. So the first season truly came from my

[24:24]inbox. The first 10 episodes were all people who had messaged me before I even had a podcast

[24:30]who I replied to and said, hey, would you like to be on a podcast that I haven't even pitched yet?

[24:37]And for whatever reason, they said, yes. And here it is. Excellent. So we just talked to,

[24:43]we just talked to regular people, just people who are going through stuff. That's it.

[24:48]That's great. I mean, that's the best way. I mean, that's where stories come from, right?

[24:53]All of this, you know, sort of artifice around storytelling. It's just really what's going on with

[24:57]people. You can make it up. You can be a memoir. I can be a podcast, but we all just want to hear

[25:02]what's going on with everyone. And I don't know. I find it so helpful to know other people do.

[25:07]Well, thank you. So I ordered my green t-shirt. I have it. My still kick-in shirt is like on the

[25:11]yay. Oh, my bureau. Can you tell listeners about how you started it in the story of the t-shirt

[25:18]and know how it's this amazing nonprofit? Yes. Thank you. Oh my gosh. I love talking about this.

[25:22]And I feel like I don't do a great job of talking about it, but still kick in is a non-profit

[25:26]that I started after Aaron died. And it is based on Aaron's favorite t-shirt. It was this

[25:32]threadbare, vintage, homemade t-shirt, Kelly Green, very faded with cracked white letters that

[25:39]said still kick in. And he bought it in ironic good health at the apex, I would say, of ironic

[25:46]t is probably like, you know, the chart of the century, probably 2002, he bought this shirt.

[25:51]And he thought it was still funny. It was one of his favorite shirts. And I love the law to borrow

[25:55]it because I sweat too much. And he was wearing it the day that he had a seizure. And I remember

[26:01]going into the ER and seeing him wear that shirt. And he was laughing about it. And we didn't know,

[26:05]we didn't know it's serious. Right? Uh, seizures. That's weird. So we didn't know that he had

[26:10]the age four brain cancer. We didn't know that that night we would get the news that he had a

[26:14]brain tumor and that it looked aggressive, but they can't diagnose it until they give him brain

[26:18]surgery. We just knew that he was 32 and there was a Halloween and we had stuff to do. And

[26:24]we laughed about that shirt. And that shirt definitely changed in meaning and still kick in as

[26:30]an entire organization is Aaron's idea. He wanted to recreate the shirt salad and use the money

[26:36]for something good. And what we use it for for organization where mainly retail basic, you mentioned

[26:42]the iconic green shirt, but we sell other items as well as give unrestricted financial grants to

[26:50]people who are going through something difficult. So this does not need to be cancer,

[26:54]does not need to be illness, although the status of our healthcare system in America means that we do

[27:00]get a lot of nominations for people who are experiencing a medical hardship. But there are so

[27:05]many difficulties that we face. And we give people the two things that I know from experience are

[27:11]really helpful when you're going through something one is to be seen as more than just a sad story.

[27:17]So we tell these people stories without pity and the second is money. And I don't care what you

[27:24]use this money for. Like you can go to Disney World, you can pay your mortgage. That's up to you.

[27:30]And to date, we've given over $150,000 away. I think the last time I checked and we are

[27:39]three years old. Well, it's fantastic. It's so great that you do that. So you buy a thing and you

[27:44]help a person out. And I love that those two words still taking me something different to everyone.

[27:49]And I love that. Like I love it. I love seeing people wear them and send me their stories and

[27:55]why they bought them or who they bought them for. And it's definitely just the thing that reminds me

[28:02]the most of how special Aaron was, especially because he would have loved that it is not just

[28:12]about him and then it's not just about cancer and that we are able to and willing to help

[28:17]so many people through so many different kinds of things. That's awesome.

[28:22]I know where I'm just out of time here. And I have like so many other things I would want to talk

[28:25]to you about. I feel like I could talk to you all day or just listen to you talk really. Do you have

[28:29]any parting advice for aspiring authors? And I will obviously not to have bad things happen so you can

[28:35]get book deals, but something else. Something else. We'll eliminate that. Find a husband. Second,

[28:39]give him a brain tumor. That's really it. No, I think that people get very, very caught up in their

[28:46]own insecurity. Myself included, by the way, like every day I have to truly remind myself to keep my

[28:54]eyes on my own paper and do my own thing. If you are looking for a reason to believe that what

[29:00]you have to say is unimportant or that you're not a good writer, you will find it and you'll find

[29:05]it on the internet. And you don't need that. Like, you really don't. The only thing that all

[29:11]writers have in common is that they write. And so does involve discipline. Like, you have to

[29:18]discount and do it, which is, to me, the hardest thing. But you don't have to worry about

[29:23]sounding like what's cool or being the people that you admire or if somebody has written something,

[29:30]I get, okay, so I get a lot of messages. They're like, oh, I've read your book and, you know,

[29:34]shit, it's, you know, my husband died. No, I can't write a book. That like, do you think

[29:38]I'm the first person whose husband died? I wrote a book. No, I did not invent this.

[29:43]I can't believe anybody said that to you. That's like, totally. I cannot even believe that.

[29:47]I get this message constantly. Like, constantly. And I'm like, don't worry. You can. Because when

[29:54]I have been died, he wasn't your husband. Your experience totally different.

[30:00]And your point of view totally valid, but don't worry too much about that kind of stuff, especially for women, that is the easiest thing that we can do is find a reason not to do something and like look for validation that our idea is not good enough, not clever enough, like not unique, not just start, just start your thing.

[30:20]Awesome. Well, Nora, thank you so much. I really appreciate all your time and hoping that you don't have too many more snow days in your near future. And you can actually, I can't believe to give me the opportunity to talk more about the weather because I'm staring out at our call this act. Our mailbox is completely covered. I can't receive mail right now. I'm pretty sure it's my responsibility as a citizen to dig up. But I don't have an ending. Okay. I don't have it in me. Please don't mail me anything. And thank you for giving me the chance to

[30:50]talk and for being a promoter of books, which is so important and so wonderful and really means a lot as an author to be able to talk about your work is very cool. So thank you. Thanks. All right. Take care. Yeah. Oh, wait before this. Yes. So to the by where you don't let anyone go. If you want like a hard cover to do a giveaway with just send Hannah and email and we'll get you on totally. All right. Yes. I will definitely do that. Thank you so much. Okay. Thank you. Bye.

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