Madeleine Henry, BREATHE IN, CASH OUT
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[1:17]I'm here today with Madeline Henry. Welcome for coming on momstone. Have time to read. Thank you so much.
[1:22]Madeline is the debut author of Breathen Cash Out, a novel. Madeline worked at Goldman Sachs
[1:27]in investment management, and it was like a true yoga master as evidenced by her Instagram.
[1:32]She graduated from Yale University, like me, where she was a comedy writer for the Yale record,
[1:37]America's oldest college humor magazine, and she currently lives in New York City.
[1:40]I'll correct? Yes. Okay. Good. See you. So thanks for coming on the show.
[1:45]Thank you so much for having me. It's such a pleasure to be here.
[1:47]I have to say right away, I'm a little bit jealous because I tried after Business School
[1:52]to write a book, and that was like my plan, and then you did it, and then I'm like,
[1:57]oh, that would have been me. But I'm kind of jealous, but also super excited for you.
[2:03]So can you tell listeners what Breathen Cash Out is about and what inspired you to write it?
[2:07]Absolutely. So Breathen Cash Out is about an investment banker,
[2:11]Allegra, who's about my age, who wants to be ages like 18. I wish, who wants to be a yogi.
[2:20]And so that specific plot taps into two more common experiences.
[2:25]One is a woman whose dream job is different from what she's doing now. And in Allegra's case,
[2:30]it happens to be the opposite. And the second is escapism. So this is something I hear a lot
[2:36]from my friends who are working in office jobs that they don't like, as they go on Instagram,
[2:41]and they develop these escapism fantasies based on these glamorized photos. So they think,
[2:47]I want to quit my job and dot dot dot be a lifestyle blogger, be a professional traveler,
[2:53]or be a yoga teacher in the case of Allegra. And so Allegra meets an Instagram yogi,
[2:59]they develop a friendship. And the Instagram yogi tries to help Allegra reconcile these two worlds.
[3:06]So that is what the book's about and the major ideas in it.
[3:10]I love the scene when you have them sitting having coffee.
[3:12]Oh, yeah.
[3:13]We go here with this Instagram friend. I feel like I have so many friends on Instagram now that
[3:18]like when I see them in real life. I'm like, I feel like I know you, but I really don't know.
[3:21]Exactly. And so this book, it taps a little bit into the Instagram fever and these relationships we
[3:26]develop with people on Instagram who we feel like we know. So I'm definitely a second for that.
[3:34]So you started a chapter with the following quote, no one grows up wanting to be an investment banker.
[3:39]Anyone who says they did is lying. And I was thinking to myself, Alex,
[3:43]Pete Keaton, did you ever watch family? You're probably too young.
[3:45]I love you. I love you too. I don't watch a video.
[3:49]I know you get Michael Foxes.
[3:50]Okay, Michael J. Fox. So family ties for anyone listening, who's younger than me,
[3:54]which is age 42, was like one of these 1980s sitcoms that everybody watched.
[3:59]Right. He likes to keep me. I was like, you know, Michael J. Fox is a young dude,
[4:03]wearing like little Republican back in the day. So, but I actually wanted to touch you by that
[4:08]because I do feel like for a long time, investment banking had a very different reputation
[4:12]than it does now. And people used to view investment bankers as like their trusted advisors and
[4:17]it was more of a relationship, long-term business. And now it has become a little bit of a different
[4:24]industry, not that people don't want to do it necessarily. Right. But sometimes more,
[4:28]it means to an end. How did you get it comment on that? And also tell me about your experience
[4:33]in this industry? Sure. So when I got into investment banking, I was following a path that's very
[4:39]common for Ivy League students. So in 2017, 40% of Harvard graduates went into finance or consulting.
[4:47]And so this is what happens toward the end of college. The big banks come to campus
[4:53]and they start recruiting. And these jobs are viewed as really prestigious. And so if you don't
[4:59]have a set idea of what you want to do, you're going to go with the crowd and interview at these
[5:04]places. And what I think is that when you're young, the conventional metric for success is grades
[5:10]and school. And when you're old, it's money. And so not old, but older. And so you're basically in
[5:16]the same reward loop. You're doing what's expected of you. You're going through this conventional
[5:21]success metric. And if you don't have a really solid idea of what you want to do next, you will
[5:26]probably go into banking or consulting as I did. And so that's how I ended up there. What
[5:31]did you want to be when you were a little bit? Honestly, you're a writer. So I had a typewriter when
[5:36]I was really young and I would type out poems and read to my classmates and actually in college,
[5:42]I wrote a novel each semester, senior year. And that was science fiction. And nothing happened with
[5:48]that. But this is really a dream come true for me to be a writer. So my dad's writer is right
[5:54]over there. That was my grandma's typewriter. She just sent me letters at camp. Like, whether it's good.
[6:01]Like, you know, white out or not even white out. But yeah, I should, I should show you after
[6:06]when I was in business school, I fell into the consulting interview circus. I was like, everyone is
[6:13]doing this. And I don't want to be a consultant, but I want to be a writer. There's no track for that.
[6:18]So I might as well throw my hat in the consulting ring. And I was like, so out of my element,
[6:23]I, the questions they asked, I tried to like prepare for the interviews you probably went through
[6:27]the same thing. I didn't even like shoot for finance, but the consulting, the way you have to analyze
[6:32]everything and like, how many total food in the United States are all these random questions.
[6:36]Exactly. Yeah. I have so much respect for consultants. Honestly, when people are like,
[6:42]I work in McKinsey, I'm like, you're a genius. Just to get that job. And that's exactly what
[6:46]it's tapping into is it's viewed as successful. It's viewed as prestigious. And so that's why
[6:50]so many people end up there. And it becomes comfortable. So it's very hard to leave that field
[6:55]once you're in it. But Allegra for your character wants to get out like basically as soon as she's in,
[7:01]like she is doing this, like not even pretending to like it. Exactly. She has one foot out the door,
[7:06]which is why she's trying to reconcile the two worlds at the same time. Is that how you went into it?
[7:12]To be honest, no. So I didn't start practicing yoga until I left banking. And then I worked
[7:18]in investment management. And so it was only when I had free time that I discovered things outside
[7:23]of work. And so I never had to reconcile them at the same time the way Allegra does. So God help her.
[7:30]It's difficult. How did you find yoga or had yoga find you? Yeah. So I came to it from a very
[7:37]New York City perspective, which is yoga is a workout. And this is for my body. And so then I started
[7:43]browsing on Instagram. And I found this network of major yogi Instagrammers. So they all follow
[7:50]each other and comment on each other's posts. And they post pictures of their practice. And I was
[7:55]just really in awe of these women. And I wanted to be able to do those things with my body.
[8:00]So while I was in investment management, I practiced every morning, a crazy hour is like a 5am.
[8:07]And I would do these motions every day at home or at a class or at a gym or on an app mat.
[8:13]So I get people coming up to me saying an app mat. Sorry. Like the little thing you roll
[8:18]on the ground. Exactly. Yeah. I have been teaching. I just never called it an app mat. Oh, sorry.
[8:24]That's a good. And so I was practicing and as these yogis captions, they would have spiritual wisdom.
[8:31]And so that was my spiritual education. I wasn't raised with a religion, but I had captions on
[8:37]Instagram passing on life advice that really resonated with me. And so that is the way I got
[8:43]into yoga was through Instagram, which is very modern. That's awesome. And so what's your practice
[8:49]like now? Now I try to practice every day, but I don't do necessarily a flow or a deep practice
[8:56]every day. I just try and get into my body. And so sometimes that's specific yoga moves. And sometimes
[9:02]it's having a yoga mindset while exercising. But I try to connect back to the body.
[9:08]And your flexibility, not that this is related to your book, but I just have to comment.
[9:14]You're like a contortionist. Have you always been that flexible and no?
[9:20]No. So this is very interesting. So my experience as evidence is that flexibility is like
[9:26]strength and that you can build it up with repetitions. I don't think I could build up what you
[9:31]have. That's what I thought. But honestly, I was never flexible. I was sedentary in an office job
[9:37]and I was just I wanted to be these women that I saw on Instagram. And I just thought, oh my god,
[9:41]you're so beautiful. You can do these crazy back bends. And so I just practiced and I got better
[9:47]over years. And the thing is that most people just quit before they see results. And it just
[9:52]takes so much longer than people expect. And they think, oh, I've been doing this a month. It's not
[9:57]working, but it takes longer. And I think.
[10:00]that if you really fall in love with doing it, then you'll do it for longer and then you'll see
[10:04]the results. But if you hate it and you're just doing it for the results, you'll probably quit.
[10:11]Did you have one inspirational yogi like the Skyler character in the book?
[10:16]There is a famous yogi named Nicole Royak and so she is famous for her yoga moves involving splits
[10:24]and so she has this massive following half of which are probably just guys watching splits
[10:30]and the other half are women who connect with her soulful captions and also are inspired by her
[10:37]physical excellence. So I was in the ladder but I was, I'm really inspired by the way, she owns her
[10:44]body in a very feminine way and that's something that I didn't really have growing up because
[10:49]I was always in with the guys in the math classes, in banking and then yoga was this first place
[10:54]where I felt very feminine and being able to do beautiful things with my body was part of what drove
[11:01]me to it. And did you use to play sports? Yeah, so I was center in La Crosse in high school and had a
[11:08]pretty masculine upbringing. So where are you from originally? Westchester, New York. Oh nice, yeah.
[11:14]So back to Goldman for a minute. You worked at Goldman. This book is not, it doesn't say Goldman.
[11:19]It does not legally. I am protected. Did you think about doing a memoir of sorts? Like it was
[11:27]that ever a thought or did you always know you wanted to do this as a novel? I knew I wanted to write
[11:33]about yoga across with investment banking because that's so funny to me given that there are opposites
[11:40]and I legally cannot write about my experiences at Goldman Sachs. So novel was the format that was
[11:49]mandated. And did you get just from the legal standpoint? This is all clear what you wrote? Yeah,
[11:55]you've had it all checked. Oh yeah. Multiple, a lot of heads, but I know right here.
[12:01]Just making sure the story is the like door flies out of bed and like, you know, goodbye
[12:05]cox can then drag that here. All right, good. So that's good. Your experience, if I could project
[12:12]from not project, well, infer from the experiences in the book might not have been super positive.
[12:17]I would say yes, that's fair. Do you like anything about your experience? Was there someone you
[12:25]developed a, you know, mentor, you mentor relationship with who you really respect? Is there anything
[12:31]about the industry you miss or that you really liked? Like what's the, there's got to be
[12:36]something positive? Absolutely. And not to say that this job is for everyone, right? Right. Not
[12:40]every job is for everyone. So that's true. I think that the relationships I formed with my peers
[12:46]are really positive and priceless things. So and actually with the publication of this book,
[12:52]I was afraid that some people would feel resentment toward me in some way that I'm writing about
[12:57]a world that they're still in. But there's been a lot of support coming from my peers. And I passed
[13:04]a couple of them on the street the other day and said, Oh, we're so excited for you. We're going
[13:07]to be at all the signings. And every pre order matters. And I'm like, Oh, we pre ordered it. And
[13:13]what's my character's name? And I realize that people want their stories told. And it's a big thing
[13:20]in life. You want to be heard. You want your experience shared. And they feel like I'm representing
[13:25]the investment banking experience of our peers. And that's something that they respect. So I got
[13:31]very lucky and they're great people. Did you have like a trip? Who was a fan? Trip is an amalgamation
[13:39]of a few different guys. And I was actually closer with some of the girls, which is not in this
[13:47]book. But I had great girlfriends coming out of that experience. And did you read books like Liars
[13:53]Poker and monkey business? Did you read those? I read Liars Poker when I was writing this
[13:59]to get a sense of big books in this genre. And I have not read monkey business. Oh, that's good.
[14:04]Yeah, I should read it. Those are more like, can you believe my life in this moment type of thing
[14:10]or like an inside from the inside looking at? And I feel like yours was more as they wrote.
[14:14]Like I'm on the inside, but I want to get out. Like I'm not even, it felt like you weren't even
[14:19]saying like look at how crazy this is. It was more, and maybe you didn't find it crazy.
[14:23]Maybe that's a question. Did you find it great? Like what did you think about the experience and
[14:29]how do you, for people who aren't as familiar with this industry, why is it so opposite from yoga?
[14:34]Absolutely. So it's opposite from yoga if you look at the values. So finance and banking values,
[14:41]money, external rewards, power and yoga values, humility, internal rewards and inner power.
[14:50]So it's really a, and it's a non materialist business in yoga and banking is very much a
[14:56]materialist industry. So that's why they clash. And I did find it absurd when I was there.
[15:02]But then I changed companies and I find their inefficiencies in every business.
[15:07]So it's not necessarily that banking is evil, but I just draw that out in some of the anecdotes.
[15:13]Just to play devil's advocate here for a minute, the values that you talk about in banking or finance
[15:19]in general, although you're trying to make money, the goal of that could be altruistic. You could
[15:25]be trying to make money to help other people. You could be trying to help your family. It could be
[15:29]trying to give to charity and this is your day job. Do you think just because you end up
[15:35]earning money doesn't necessarily mean you're doing that for the wrong reasons, does it?
[15:40]Absolutely. Yeah. And I don't mean to demonize money at all. And part of what this book explores
[15:46]is that everyone needs to make a living. And it just comes down to do you conduct yourself with
[15:52]integrity while you're doing it. But I definitely don't demonize financial success in any way.
[15:58]And I think that you can still be operating with a lot of integrity as a banker or as someone
[16:04]in finance. I mean, there are tons of people. I mean, it's a huge industry.
[16:08]My friends in finance. There's lots of people in other industries who are like complete
[16:13]scumbags, right? Absolutely. I mean, there are people who work for charities who steal money and
[16:17]all this other stuff, right? Absolutely. So there could be just like throwing this out there. Totally.
[16:23]A commonality. Like the part of yoga is wanting to better yourself. And I think right in a way,
[16:30]right? You're trying to improve yourself. You're trying to build your practice, build your flexibility,
[16:33]build your strength. And I think people in that industry and many industries are also doing that.
[16:38]They're trying to build their own skills and maybe their intellectual skills or maybe their
[16:42]you know, finance or just getting practice and improving themselves in life. Right. Exactly.
[16:48]So maybe they're not old. Either way. It was a great contrast. You said you're writing a second
[16:55]novel. Absolutely. That is actually our identity. It's done. Oh my gosh. Yeah. So I love it.
[17:02]It's called I actually shouldn't say the title, but it is about unfinished relationships. So
[17:07]this is a title rhyme. So it is it's a love story. And it takes place at Yale where we both went
[17:14]and it is about unfinished relationships and where love goes when you can't see it anymore. So
[17:21]it's about two people who separate, but they continue to feel a connection. And so it's about
[17:26]why is that? What is that? And what does that mean for one woman in particular? So it's a very
[17:31]soulful novel. And it unlike this, which I feel is very snarky and sarcastic and witty. This is
[17:38]a lot more visceral. So I'm really excited for it. That's awesome. Yeah. There's definitely a lot of
[17:43]cursing. I know when I when I met you at the book there, I was like, do you curse every two words
[17:47]too? You're like, no, that's not me. Yeah. I think that when you're in finance, a lot of people
[17:55]are cursing all the time. And it's just a reflection of the culture, but no non real life.
[18:01]I also wanted to ask maybe this is like totally inappropriate. We don't really know each other very
[18:05]well. But you started this novel with this funny scene where the Allegra goes home with this guy
[18:12]has spent the night and has a great night with lots of promise. And then can I even say this
[18:16]I'm giving it anyway. And then finds out that he is actually her, her new boss. Yes, which was a great
[18:21]way. When that happens, has that happened to you or someone you know, someone you know or did you
[18:29]just dream that up? I have never had a one night stand with my boss. And I actually don't know anyone
[18:35]who has either my experience with sex and banking is that it doesn't happen a lot.
[18:42]So people might just do not have that much time when they're in banking. And so they just don't
[18:48]have that in their lives. Work is really who they're in a relationship with. So that did not
[18:53]happen. I just had to ask because that was a great way to that was a good way to like really pull
[18:59]you in, you know, into this story for sure. So tell me about your process like when do you
[19:03]write? Where do you like to write? Do you outline your books? How do you come up with your ideas?
[19:09]Just tell you about you and yours. Sure. What's really important to me is that a story
[19:14]feels authentic because I think that at least when I read I read to connect. So I want to
[19:19]hear a voice that's like my voice. I want to see someone going through something that I went through
[19:24]or that bears insight into my own life. So it's important to me that I write things that feel
[19:29]authentic and that come out of my own experiences. So that is how I choose subject matters. And then
[19:36]to write this book I wrote this while I was still working in investment management. So I wrote
[19:41]very early in the morning and on weekends just basically when I was not working. But what's
[19:46]interesting is that I found the energy that I had while working in finance really got into the story.
[19:56]And what I mean by that is there was very little heart.
[20:00]in the initial draft. So in the final draft you see a leg was very influenced by her father
[20:05]and to me that's full of heart this desire to please your parents and where does your own interests
[20:09]come into that. But that emerged after I left finance because and there wasn't a lot of background
[20:15]in the initial drafts. So that is to say my process when I was writing in finance was very
[20:22]influenced by who I was when I was in finance and now that I'm not constantly under deadline
[20:27]pressure I have the ability to explore deeper more complicated like visceral themes and
[20:34]relationships between characters and now I write full time so I can do that all day. That's awesome.
[20:41]Yeah. So now that you have all day. Sometimes I feel like if I have too much time I don't get
[20:45]things done. When I have an hour a day I get like 57 things done in the hour. That's true.
[20:50]Do you, does that ever happen to you? It does not happen because I find that now that I have more
[20:57]free time I can take the ideas with me on walks and so I find that it's very freeing for me to
[21:03]think about something not at a computer and that's where I make a lot of development. So we're
[21:08]going to long walk up the West Side Highway and I'll just ask myself a question and I'll take
[21:12]notes as I go. So I don't find the lack of constraint to hurt me. I just find it creates new
[21:19]opportunities. When I wrote this book after business school and I took three months off to write
[21:23]it and I would sit at my desk like my roommates would go and my roommate or rather my boyfriend.
[21:29]Everybody would leave and I would like have the apartment to myself and I would sit down at nine
[21:32]and I would just like write through the day until like three o'clock and then I would go about
[21:36]my business and I remember it was like this huge blackout which is like there was a huge blackout
[21:40]in New York around the power when I went out and I didn't even like everyone was freaking out
[21:44]and I didn't even notice because my laptop just switched on to battery and it wasn't until like
[21:49]hours later when I went to print what I had written for the day that I realized like my printer
[21:53]wasn't working and I was like oh that's annoying my printer's not working. Oh wow. So no
[21:57]weren't slow. Yeah I was like yeah I was in it but now I don't know maybe. Yeah but I find to
[22:03]speak to what you're saying there is an accordion of time so if you have a lot of time you can fit
[22:08]your task into the maximum amount of time that you have and so if I only had a month to do a
[22:14]revision I'm sure I could get it done in that month and if I had three months I'd get it done
[22:18]in three months so there is something to be said about you adjusting your schedule to how much time
[22:23]you have. I like that the accordion of time. Did you come up with it? Just now. All right. Your room is
[22:28]magical. It's all over. Things discovered on my podcast. Yeah exactly. It's interesting. So do you
[22:37]find time to read when do you read? So is that part of your process? How I structure it is I make
[22:43]my the book I'm working on the hub of what I'm reading. So if I center my book on what I'm interested
[22:50]in then I'm naturally going to read for work things that I want to read. So my third book is
[22:56]about a restaurant. Your third book on it. Oh yeah. What do I get? What do I get? What do I really
[23:00]do? Oh my gosh. So now I'm reading all of these books about restaurants and I make it for work and I
[23:08]think that for New York City types we need a justifiable excuse to do something we love or to
[23:14]not waste time and to make all this reading for work in my mind grants me this freedom to do it.
[23:21]So that's how I make time to read is I give myself that excuse that it's for work because it
[23:26]is. That's how I do it exactly. That's how I get all these books in. If you need anyone
[23:31]detecting the restaurant industry I don't know if you do but my husband's cousin has an amazing
[23:36]restaurant in New Jersey. It's called Biaggio and Wayne New Jersey but it's like upscale Italian.
[23:40]It is so good and he's like 28 or something. He's like this up and coming. Amazing. Anyway,
[23:45]I'll put you in touch. Thank you. He's like yeah. He should go out there. That's going to happen.
[23:50]He's going to just open a second restaurant. Wow. Brilliant. Brilliant. I'll do it reminding. I'm
[23:55]going to forget. Maybe I'll like listen to this and be like oh I never center in there.
[24:00]Okay so you have a lot coming next. Yes. Did you start the restaurant book? Yes I have.
[24:04]Now we're doing a lot of promotion for breathing cash out. So this is number one right now.
[24:09]Yeah. It takes a lot. It does. That's exciting. And do you have any advice to aspiring authors?
[24:17]My advice would be to write every day and to knock it up and to not wait until you're inspired
[24:25]to write something because from my experience it takes a lot of bad writing to get to anything good.
[24:31]And so even if you're not feeling it right until you get to something good and keep at it.
[24:36]And one question just to back up. Tell me about how this became a published novel.
[24:41]Okay so that was very old fashioned cold calling to agents who saw the commercial promise in
[24:50]my background being a Goldman Sachs writing a novel about investment banking. So because I had a
[24:55]tie into something very socially relevant I think that that got agents to look at me. And then
[25:01]it was standard submission to publishers last summer sold it last summer and now it's coming out.
[25:08]That's pretty best. Yeah. Yeah. And I actually have one question for you.
[25:14]Oh yay. Yes. So you've seen so many authors you know reach success or not. Do you have advice
[25:20]from the perspective of a reader and an interviewer of authors on advice for authors?
[25:26]On which aspect of life? Any any aspects? Yeah. On connecting with readers or finding success
[25:32]in the business or common pitfalls. Anything's good to you. I'm really excited. No one's ever
[25:39]asking questions before seriously. Like goodness I haven't prepared. Well I would say that you can't
[25:48]really plan your life. Yeah. And that the people who have gone through the most have really
[25:53]interesting stories to tell not that you have to. But that whatever life is going to throw your way
[25:59]can be material at some point. And even the depths of despair can be sort of mined. And to know
[26:06]that life is just writing is going to be your you know not your friend but that will be a tool
[26:14]forever for you. And to use it like wield that tool often and eagerly and you'll keep
[26:21]chiseling away and come up with really great stuff over over time. That was philosophical.
[26:26]On a more tactical level I've heard that the more publicity you can do for books yourself,
[26:32]the better and not to rely necessarily on the publishers who might not have the budget or the time
[26:38]or the not that they don't have the desire but might not have as many resources as you might need
[26:43]and to try to you know for lack of better word hustle and do whatever you can you probably know
[26:50]this already. But everything helps to differentiate the book. And I really think that connecting
[26:55]with other authors really helps which is the thing I've been trying to do with this podcast is
[26:58]form a community because you learn so much from people who have come before you. It's like how
[27:03]I am with my kids. Like people have kids just a little bit older are so valuable to me. So people
[27:08]who have had a book come out in last couple of years I would say reach out to them. Let me know
[27:11]if there's anyone you want me to introduce you to and see what worked best for them. Great. How
[27:17]was that? That was amazing! Okay, just covered on my podcast. Amazing. Well thanks for coming on.
[27:23]Thank you so much for having me. Thanks for asking me a question. It's really cool.
[27:29]Thanks again to my sponsor Libro FM audiobooks. Thanks for listening to moms don't have time to read
[27:35]books. You can follow me on Instagram at moms don't have time to read books and at Zibi Owens.
[27:41]Thanks so much to Steve and Ryan at Texturesound for the Sound Editing. And thank you to
[27:46]Morning Moon Productions for providing this fantastic intro and out trim music. Thanks for listening.
[27:50]You can always email me at zibios.com.