Amanda Salzhauer, THE KINDNESS ADVANTAGE
[0:08]Hi, I'm Zibi Owens, and you're listening to the web-e-nominated podcast,
[0:12]Mom's Don't Have Time to Read Books.
[0:13]This episode has been sponsored by Lauren Gabriellesson,
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[0:25]The Lauren Gabriellesson Woman values quality versatile pieces that she can wear every day,
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[0:40]because I wear them everywhere, and they're amazing and actually my six-year-old daughter.
[0:44]Stills mine all the time, so anyway, Lauren Gabriellesson.com.
[0:49]I'm delighted to be interviewing Amanda Salzauer, MSW,
[0:52]today at Bering Co. bookstore.
[0:54]She is the co-author, along with Dale Atkins, PhD, of the kindness advantage,
[0:58]cultivating compassionate and connected children,
[1:00]everyday ideas for raising kids who care.
[1:03]Amanda is a social worker who's worked in both clinics and private practice.
[1:06]She is a master's in social work,
[1:08]and currently lives in Riverdale with her three children,
[1:10]where she's actively involved in the community.
[1:13]Dale, by the way, has authored seven books,
[1:16]and is a frequent sought-after guest speaker and TV expert,
[1:19]and she's the one who co-wrote the book with Amanda.
[1:22]Amanda currently maintains a private practice in New York and Connecticut.
[1:25]So, welcome Amanda to mom's time to read books.
[1:29]Thank you. I'm so excited to be here.
[1:30]Thanks for having me.
[1:31]Of course, and thanks to everybody at Bering Co. bookstore in Saigon Harbor today,
[1:35]and thanks again to Taylor Rose Berry for hosting.
[1:37]It's so much fun.
[1:38]Ah, thanks.
[1:42]Okay, so here's a short bio for people who don't know about Amanda,
[1:46]who, by the way, co-wrote this book with her and Dr. Dale Atkins.
[1:50]Amanda has her MSW. She's the co-author of the kindness advantage,
[1:54]cultivating compassionate and connected children,
[1:56]everyday ideas for raising kids who care.
[1:59]Amanda is a social worker who has worked in both clinics and private practice.
[2:02]She has a master's degree in social work from NYU and NYU,
[2:07]and is a graduate of Dartmouth.
[2:09]She currently lives in Riverdale, New York, with her three children,
[2:12]where she is actively involved in her community.
[2:14]I won't read much about Dale, but Dale,
[2:16]her aunt is a licensed psychologist with 40 plus years of experience
[2:20]as a relationship expert who focuses on family's wellness managing stress
[2:25]and living a balanced meaningful life.
[2:27]Dale is the author of seven other books,
[2:28]and has contributed to many publications,
[2:30]and is such a sought-after guest speaker that she is on the Today Show right now.
[2:35]So that is why she is not here.
[2:37]I said to Amanda,
[2:39]Amanda, and this event I go on the Today Show,
[2:40]but she was nice enough to still come.
[2:42]I don't know that they really wanted me.
[2:43]I think they wanted Dale, but that's it.
[2:45]I don't know. I would just knock on there if I were you.
[2:48]Anyway, welcome.
[2:49]Thank you.
[2:50]So can you please tell everyone what your book, the kindness advantage,
[2:53]is about and what inspired you to write it?
[2:56]Absolutely.
[2:56]So like most projects, it was quite a journey.
[3:00]We started Dale and I started writing the book about six years ago,
[3:04]and at that time Dale had been giving a lot of talks
[3:07]about raising charitable children.
[3:09]So when we started the project, that was kind of our focus,
[3:12]about how to encourage parents and grandparents to raise charitable
[3:16]and compassionate children.
[3:17]One of the first things we did was interview people who we knew or knew of,
[3:21]who we viewed as extremely charitable.
[3:23]And what we found is that a lot of these people had
[3:26]common characteristics.
[3:28]They were very accepting of other people.
[3:29]They were really committed to things that were important to them.
[3:32]They had tremendous empathy for others.
[3:35]And since we saw so many of those traits coming up over and over again,
[3:40]we thought, you know what?
[3:41]Maybe there's a shift in focus here.
[3:44]So we took the 10 kind of most common characteristics that we saw
[3:49]and made those into what we call our 10 fundamentals of kindness.
[3:54]And we shifted a little bit to help through the book,
[3:57]give parents and grandparents the skills and tools to raise kids who are kind,
[4:04]who are empathic towards others and who are connected in the world.
[4:08]And what I thought was so great about your book,
[4:10]because there are lots of books that try to teach certain skills.
[4:13]But this was such a hands-on book.
[4:15]So you have all the theory and philosophy behind everything.
[4:18]But then you have like, here's what you can do on Tuesday.
[4:21]And it's very actionable.
[4:22]So that was, as a mom before, it's super helpful to have things that you can actually go do.
[4:26]Yeah. And for us, you're welcome.
[4:28]Thank you for noticing that.
[4:30]And I think that was really an important piece of it for us too.
[4:33]I have, as you said, three kids, Dale has two grown kids and six grandchildren.
[4:37]And, you know, having experience being in practice,
[4:40]the goal is to give people something concrete to do.
[4:44]And not just kind of talk about the philosophy.
[4:46]Right. Excellent.
[4:47]I wish you were my therapist.
[4:49]Maybe I'll be coming to see him, man.
[4:51]I need a voice.
[4:51]No, I'm kidding.
[4:52]Um, so talk after.
[4:54]Okay.
[4:55]Why is kindness even important?
[4:57]Why should we care about being kind?
[4:58]There's so many reasons.
[5:00]First of all, it's a way for us to connect with other people.
[5:04]Being kind, kind of gives us the space to be aware of what's going on for another person,
[5:11]what they might need, and through our actions, to connect with them.
[5:15]In addition, there are physiological reasons that kindness is important.
[5:20]I don't know if anybody's heard of this phenomenon called the Helper's High.
[5:23]Right.
[5:23]So if we do something kind for another person, it releases and orphans.
[5:28]The feel-good chemicals makes us feel good.
[5:31]And it makes us want to do more acts of kindness for other people.
[5:36]Interestingly, if you even observe an act of kindness, you get that benefit as well.
[5:42]So the idea that through acts of kindness,
[5:46]we can all kind of change our brain chemistry is pretty phenomenal.
[5:50]Yeah.
[5:50]So I mean, there's so many reasons.
[5:52]Kindness is important, but those are the top ones in my opinion.
[5:55]One of the things that I took away from the book for my own kids,
[5:59]for the importance of kindness, is that you say kids should track kind acts.
[6:04]So at my kid's school, they have a wall where you can write down like the good deeds,
[6:08]and they read it out like the good news of the week and everything.
[6:11]And it's so great because then they're aware all week, what am I doing that's kind?
[6:14]And they can write it down.
[6:15]I tried to do this once in my own house and it lasted for like two little post-its.
[6:19]But what are some good ways to track acts of kindness?
[6:23]Because I feel like bringing kids attention, as you said, is just so key to the whole thing.
[6:27]Totally.
[6:27]I think there are a lot of different ways.
[6:29]I really do like the, you know, tracking it.
[6:31]I think so many of us as parents have been, you know, either read about another parenting
[6:35]books or through our pediatricians have been given tools to do behavior modification charts.
[6:39]So if you think of it sort of in the same vein, this is a behavior modification chart.
[6:44]And if you, you know, and if you have little kids, let them decorate a chart, put it up on
[6:48]the refrigerator or the bulletin board, wherever you do things.
[6:51]And either you record them the acts of kindness yourself or say to them, hey, I noticed,
[6:56]you know, you saw the dog's bowl was empty and you filled it with water.
[6:59]That was really kind and put something up on the, on the chart.
[7:03]So I think that's a terrific way.
[7:04]I think the other thing that's really important for us as parents is to catch our kids being kind.
[7:10]Right?
[7:10]It's not something we want to be jamming down their throats.
[7:14]You know, like they're going to buck against that a little bit.
[7:16]But if you noticed something, bring it up, tell them.
[7:20]And the other thing that I think is really helpful is look kind of in your world
[7:25]for other kindness role models.
[7:27]Who do you see who's doing acts of kindness?
[7:29]Whether it's, you know, the crossing guard outside of school in the morning,
[7:32]who always greets you by name and says, good morning.
[7:35]And say, you know what, even if I'm in a crummy mood walking you to school,
[7:39]when I see Jane and she says, good morning, Zibi, you know, how are you today?
[7:42]Makes me feel good.
[7:43]That's an act of kindness.
[7:45]And that's a way for us to bring our kids attention to the kindnesses in the world around them.
[7:49]And probably modeling, too, is super important.
[7:51]I mean, I know you that modeling is incredibly important.
[7:55]So there's been a lot of research about how to raise kids who are charitable,
[8:01]compassionate, and a couple of the things that have come out in the research is that it's
[8:05]really important to model kindness yourself.
[8:07]And interestingly, it's more important to talk about as a parent what you do, whether you volunteer
[8:14]or, you know, in something structured and something less structured,
[8:18]what you do and why you do it and what you get out of it so that your kids understand,
[8:23]you know, yeah, it may look like I'm buried in paper and envelopes.
[8:27]But what I'm doing actually is stuffing invitations for the school benefit.
[8:33]That's something that I can do on, you know, on my own time when I come home from work.
[8:37]And it's really important to me that other families are engaged in school and help support your
[8:42]school. So that's why I'm doing it.
[8:44]So kind of having a running narrative with your child about what you do in the world,
[8:48]what acts of kindness, what volunteerism, and why you do it and what you get out of it.
[8:53]And what if you just have a kid who's kind of an asshole? What happens?
[8:58]Like, what if they're born that way or what if they just don't listen or what if they are not
[9:02]responding to your modeling or they have other more negative influences perhaps in the world
[9:09]that they pay more attention to? What then?
[9:12]I think that's a great question.
[9:13]I think one of the things that we have to keep in mind, particularly as parents,
[9:18]is that none of us is our ideal parent all the time. And our kids are not going to be the
[9:24]kids we want them to be all the time. So I think there's a difference between, you know,
[9:29]your kids being a real jerk on the playground and your kid really has some sort of pathology
[9:36]where, you know, their entire being is difficult or unkind all the time. So I think that's
[9:42]a really important distinction that said there are always going to be moments when our kids
[9:47]sorry dear, not my kid, not my kid. And I think, you know, being open to the fact that it's
[9:56]not a reflection on us as parents because I
[10:00]I think sometimes parents get very defensive.
[10:02]You know, if your kid is accused of doing something,
[10:05]it's like, that can't be, that's my perfect child.
[10:07]Well, no kid is perfect.
[10:09]No parent is perfect.
[10:10]And I think there are a few different things you can do.
[10:13]The first is try to understand what's going on for your kid.
[10:16]And that really gets back to this idea of empathy.
[10:19]And empathy is so important in parenting.
[10:22]You know, so if you pick up your kid's phone,
[10:26]if you have an older kid and you see,
[10:27]they sent a really nasty text to somebody
[10:29]or commented something unkind on someone else's Instagram
[10:32]or whatever it might be,
[10:34]try to understand why they might have done that.
[10:37]And it may start with, you know, a simple question like,
[10:39]hey, I saw what you posted.
[10:41]What's up with that? What's going on?
[10:43]And try to understand, you know, is it that they got a bad
[10:46]grade on a test?
[10:47]And as soon as they came out of the classroom,
[10:49]that was the first thing they saw,
[10:50]and that's where they were venting it.
[10:52]Is it because this kid was at great adventure?
[10:54]And you know, your kid's been wanting to go to great adventure
[10:56]all summer, and they were just angry.
[10:58]So that's how they lashed out.
[11:00]But try to connect with your child
[11:02]and understand what might be motivating that behavior.
[11:06]And then you can sort of remind them,
[11:08]hey, you know what, that's not what we do in our family.
[11:10]Let's think about another way you might have been able
[11:13]to deal with that situation
[11:14]and try to help coach them through some other ideas as well.
[11:19]What about the idea of pointing out unkind behavior?
[11:22]Should you ignore it or should you say like,
[11:24]well, look at this in the news.
[11:26]Like that was terrible that that person did this.
[11:28]Like, what can we learn from that?
[11:30]Like, do you think it should we go to the negatives
[11:32]or should we spend more time emphasizing the positives?
[11:36]I think they're both important.
[11:37]I would say spend more time emphasizing the positive,
[11:40]but I do think it's important to, when you see things,
[11:42]whether it's in the newspaper or in your day-to-day life
[11:46]to point out to your kid, you know what?
[11:49]How do you think you would have felt
[11:50]if you were on the receiving end of that behavior?
[11:52]Or can you think of another way
[11:54]that maybe you could have or, you know,
[11:56]he or she could have expressed that?
[11:58]I think one of the things that's really difficult
[12:00]for people sometimes is the notion
[12:02]that you can be assertive and strong and also be kind.
[12:07]So there are ways to, even if you disagree with somebody,
[12:10]get your point across, but do it in a way
[12:13]that's respectful and that's an important part of kindness.
[12:16]That's true.
[12:17]Very true.
[12:18]What are some more essential takeaways you said
[12:24]that movies and TVs are actually a great
[12:28]way, a great resource for teaching kids about kindness,
[12:30]pointing out, it doesn't have to be in your real life.
[12:33]That it can be watching any kind of show,
[12:35]even Paw Patrol or whatever you're doing with your kids
[12:38]and using that.
[12:39]So tell me more things like that
[12:40]in addition to the TV angle.
[12:42]I think the TV and movie angle is a great angle.
[12:44]And I think given kind of what your focus is,
[12:47]reading is another really important way to do that.
[12:50]And I think that so many of us, you know,
[12:52]especially if we have older kids,
[12:54]don't think about reading together with our kids.
[12:57]It's very different to sit snuggled up and bed
[12:59]with your three-year-old and flip the pages of a picture book.
[13:03]But as your kids get older, you can still read together.
[13:06]Whether it's reading a book that your kids reading for pleasure
[13:08]or reading for school, even my daughter,
[13:10]who's in college will send me her course syllabi.
[13:13]And I'll pick one or two things that look interesting
[13:15]and read that as well.
[13:17]And that gives us a framework to have conversations
[13:20]about whether it's kindness or other difficult topics.
[13:23]But I think that's another great way
[13:25]to kind of initiate conversation about kindness.
[13:28]I think since so many kids are so engaged in social media,
[13:32]that's another really useful way
[13:34]to kind of talk about kindness.
[13:37]You can DM your kid something that you see
[13:39]on somebody else's Instagram account.
[13:41]Wow, isn't that amazing?
[13:42]Look at this kid.
[13:43]They're doing a fundraiser because they heard about,
[13:46]you know, another child that doesn't have enough money
[13:48]to get school supplies.
[13:50]And, you know, kind of share that way as well.
[13:53]I'm reading one of, an upcoming guest for the podcast
[13:57]is his name is Rex Ogle.
[13:58]And he wrote a middle-grade fiction book
[14:00]called Free Lunch about his experience growing up.
[14:03]It's written in a more fictional style,
[14:06]but it actually was based on his life.
[14:08]And I've been reading it.
[14:09]I was like, you guys, we should read this together.
[14:11]We're interviewing him and we're in LA.
[14:12]And they're learning so much.
[14:14]So they're like, wait, people can't,
[14:16]I mean, this, I can't even say this is embarrassing,
[14:17]but you know, we're very lucky in our lives.
[14:20]We don't have to worry about getting dinner on the table.
[14:23]And I point that out, but it's been very different
[14:26]for them to read this one-person story.
[14:30]Then have me say, what do you mean, you're so lucky?
[14:33]Right, so it resonates in a totally different way.
[14:36]Yeah, and it was so great.
[14:37]You put a whole list of recommended books in your book,
[14:40]which not everybody does.
[14:42]So that was really great.
[14:43]Good, yeah.
[14:44]And I think the other thing is there's so much research
[14:46]that's come out in the last decade or so
[14:48]about how reading literary fiction impacts empathy.
[14:52]Yeah, so, you know, so what you're saying is research-based.
[14:56]You know, there's evidence to support that exact experience
[14:58]your kids are having.
[15:00]There's so many things to try to weave into the daily life
[15:02]of making kids into better people.
[15:04]It's like, it's hard.
[15:05]I'm like, okay, I'm going to keep doing that too.
[15:09]Do you think kids need like big acts,
[15:11]like some parents say, well, once every couple years
[15:15]I take my kids to Africa, show them blah, blah, blah.
[15:18]I think what we really focus on in the book
[15:21]is kind of twofold.
[15:22]It's primarily these everyday acts of kindness
[15:25]because I think that each one of us has an opportunity
[15:29]to be kind countless times during the course of a day.
[15:33]Whether it's walking down the street in Sagarber,
[15:35]walking down the street in New York City,
[15:36]you know, saying hello to somebody who's holding the door for you.
[15:40]You know, if you see somebody in the supermarket
[15:41]struggling to reach something on a high shelf,
[15:43]offer to help.
[15:45]Those are acts of kindness that help our kids and us
[15:48]create habits of kindness.
[15:51]Don't get me wrong, if your kid is incredibly passionate
[15:53]about saving the elephants.
[15:55]And that's where they're leading and you end up taking them
[15:59]to Africa, just, you know, to see them and support them.
[16:02]That's a totally different story.
[16:04]But I think that we don't have to think about these grand acts.
[16:08]And I think that sometimes we get bogged down
[16:11]in the idea that we do.
[16:13]And I don't think that's what it's about.
[16:14]I think it's, you know, each individual person
[16:18]taking the opportunities they see to notice acts of kindness
[16:22]if there's an opportunity to be kind to do it
[16:25]and making the world a better place that way.
[16:28]So tell me more about writing this book.
[16:30]How did you, I know you said it took six years
[16:33]and it came from this place,
[16:34]but how did you and your aunt actually do this?
[16:37]Did you use Google, like,
[16:38]tell, take me through the whole thing,
[16:39]even as you changed it.
[16:41]Just like, where do you like to write?
[16:43]Yeah, had you written more before this?
[16:45]Did you like writing?
[16:47]It was a really interesting process.
[16:49]So, you know, forget the fact that I'm writing
[16:51]with another human being.
[16:53]This is a human being who has been by mentor,
[16:55]you know, in my role model my whole life.
[16:57]So Dale and I have always been very close.
[16:59]She's been kind of my professional role model
[17:01]as a psychologist.
[17:02]So it was fascinating.
[17:05]I also feel so blessed that she's gone through this process
[17:07]so many times before.
[17:08]So she really led the way.
[17:11]Logistically, we often sat side by side
[17:14]in front of the computer in her office.
[17:16]So I would drive up to Connecticut in the morning.
[17:18]We'd sit, you know, sit at the computer together
[17:21]and write together.
[17:22]We literally wrote every word of this.
[17:25]Most 90% physically together.
[17:27]And then when we sort of got more adept at Google Docs,
[17:30]we could be on the phone,
[17:32]both looking at the same screen.
[17:34]One of the things that was most challenging, though,
[17:36]in one of the earlier iterations of the book,
[17:38]it was very much divided a section for parents
[17:41]and a section for kids.
[17:43]And Dale was kind of the voice of the parents.
[17:45]And I was the kid voice.
[17:47]And that was helpful because our voices
[17:50]are somewhat different.
[17:51]So coming to a place once we changed the structure of the book
[17:55]where we both felt comfortable with the voice
[17:58]was something that really took us a while to get to
[18:00]in terms of the writing process.
[18:02]So that was a challenge, I would say.
[18:05]And would you want to do another book on your own
[18:09]or would you want to do it?
[18:10]Would you collaborate again like it was in it overall positives?
[18:13]It was overall a wonderful experience.
[18:15]I would say.
[18:15]Sure.
[18:17]Now overall it was a fabulous experience.
[18:20]And I think that since we finished the book,
[18:22]we've written quite a few articles together.
[18:25]So the process has become much more streamlined
[18:27]and much more comfortable.
[18:29]One of the things that we're thinking about
[18:31]is doing kind of a companion for the book
[18:33]that would be a kindness curriculum for schools
[18:35]because we've done a lot of talks at schools.
[18:38]And that's one of the things that the teachers
[18:40]and administrators seem to be interested in.
[18:44]So I could see us potentially doing that.
[18:46]We're not sure yet.
[18:47]But I really, I would not have considered myself a writer
[18:51]before this process.
[18:52]And I have been pleasantly surprised by how much
[18:54]I enjoy writing that I didn't realize.
[18:58]I've always been a reader,
[18:59]but I never thought of myself as a writer.
[19:01]They say that's like the most important thing
[19:03]for writing is reading a lot.
[19:04]Yeah.
[19:05]What do you like to read what types of books usually?
[19:07]I will read anything, honestly.
[19:09]I love, my primary love is fiction.
[19:12]I also really enjoy reading YA books.
[19:15]I read a very interesting book recently called Sadie,
[19:18]which I don't know if you've heard of.
[19:19]Oh, I'm Sadie.
[19:20]Do you have a Sadie?
[19:21]OK.
[19:22]Really interesting book.
[19:23]And I loved the structure.
[19:24]The chapters alternated and it was alternating perspectives.
[19:29]One was the teenager who's the protagonist,
[19:32]sort of on her journey.
[19:33]And the alternating chapters were the transcript
[19:37]of a podcast that was written about the protagonist
[19:41]and her sister, both of whom kind of disappear.
[19:44]So it was fascinating, just because it was so unlike anything
[19:47]I'd ever read.
[19:48]And when do you find time to read?
[19:50]I always read at night before bed, even if it's one page
[19:53]and then I'm out.
[19:55]Like so many suburban moms, I also
[19:57]have my audiobook for the car for you.
[20:00]I spend a ton of time driving around.
[20:02]And then I usually have a book in my bag.
[20:04]So even if I have five minutes,
[20:06]I'm waiting for an appointment,
[20:07]waiting to pick up a kid.
[20:08]I'll take out a book and read them.
[20:10]I have this new thing with Libro FM.
[20:13]They're an audiobook company,
[20:14]and they can actually split the proceeds
[20:16]from audiobooks with independent bookstores.
[20:18]You can pick your bookstore.
[20:19]They'll pick it.
[20:20]I've heard of apps.
[20:21]And now all the books that are on my podcast
[20:23]are on playlists with them.
[20:25]So that's great.
[20:27]Yeah, that's amazing.
[20:27]But it is interested.
[20:28]LibroFM dot com slash playlists.
[20:31]Anyway, I thought it was really neat.
[20:32]I think that's amazing.
[20:33]Anyway, and if it's that.
[20:34]So what is coming next for you?
[20:36]You're going to keep doing your practice,
[20:37]so you're doing mostly private practice now.
[20:39]I have, I actually recently closed my practical practice.
[20:42]So I've scratched that.
[20:44]But in the vein of sort of understanding
[20:46]how to be kind to yourself,
[20:47]which I think is something we didn't talk about,
[20:49]which is really important, especially as parents.
[20:52]I found, I love what I did, the love what I do,
[20:56]but I found at this moment in my life,
[20:58]there wasn't enough of me to go around.
[21:01]So I kind of had to make that decision.
[21:03]So I've been doing a lot of writing, a lot of talks.
[21:06]As I mentioned, a lot of talks at schools, churches, synagogues,
[21:09]all kinds of community groups.
[21:11]And I think that Dale and I will probably
[21:12]continue to do some writing kind of in this kindness vein
[21:16]together.
[21:17]That's great.
[21:18]Yeah, awesome.
[21:19]It's so nice that you're dedicating your life
[21:21]to helping the world be full of kinder acts and people.
[21:24]I mean, that's amazing what you're doing, really.
[21:26]I mean, thank you.
[21:27]No, that's true.
[21:27]But do you have any advice to aspiring authors out there?
[21:31]Right.
[21:31]I mean, I think that's the basic advice.
[21:33]And I think that one of the things that I discovered
[21:36]is that you just have to sit down and do it
[21:38]and not be judgmental.
[21:40]Because if you sit and try to write and edit and write
[21:44]and edit, for me at least, I found that that was very disheartening.
[21:48]And if I just let myself sit and write for an hour
[21:51]and then went back the next day to look at it and assess,
[21:55]I was able to get a lot more out on the page.
[21:58]And just everything you write's not going to be fabulous.
[22:01]And that's OK.
[22:01]It's sort of, again, creating the habit
[22:04]and making a process for yourself.
[22:07]OK, that's what I would say.
[22:08]Well, thank you so much for coming on mom's time to read books.
[22:11]Thank you so much for having me.
[22:12]Thank you so much for sharing.
[22:13]Thank you very much.
[22:13]Thank you, Terry and co-book store in Sey Harbor.
[22:15]And thanks everybody for coming.
[22:16]Thank you.
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[22:36]to read books.
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[22:43]for providing this fantastic intro and out trim music.
[22:45]Thanks for listening.
[22:46]You could always email me at zibbyoins.com.