Deborah Copaken & Daniel Jones, MODERN LOVE
[0:08]Hi, I'm Zibi Owens, and you're listening to the web-e-nominated podcast,
[0:12]Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books. This episode has been sponsored by Lauren Gabriellesson,
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[0:49]This is a really special episode that I'm introducing now. It was Deborah Keegan's idea to
[0:56]get all these people in a room together and put everyone on my podcast, and I'll explain why.
[1:01]Deborah, who I'll introduce in a second, wrote an article for the Modern Love column
[1:06]in the New York Times, which was then published by Daniel Jones, the editor of the Modern Love column.
[1:11]The column was about a couple, Justin Mcleod, who's the founder and CEO of the Dating App Hinge,
[1:18]and his now wife, Kate Mcleod, who's the founder of the bodystone. So everybody got together
[1:25]in my office here, and we all talked about how the essay has now been put in a book that's a
[1:32]collection of essays, also called Modern Love, True Stories of Love, Lost and Redemption, which just
[1:37]came out. And this episode, this essay, has actually been made into one episode of the new Amazon
[1:45]streaming series of the same name, which is debuting on October 18th. Does that make any sense to
[1:50]anybody? Anyway, there are a lot of people on this podcast. It is so exciting and fun. I wish you
[1:56]had all been in the room because there was such love emanating between Justin and Kate, so much energy.
[2:02]Daniel Jones of New York Times is such a genius that he even edited the bio I wrote about him
[2:07]with excruciating detail. And Deborah Keegan has been one of my favorite authors, and she wrote
[2:13]Shutter babe almost 20 years ago. And meeting her in person was just amazing, and our
[2:18]corresponding sense has been, oh my gosh, she's just incredible. And one of the brightest
[2:26]stars in the writing world, there is. So let me read their bios, and then hopefully you can
[2:31]enjoy this really unique conversation. And then you can buy the book, Modern Love, and you can watch
[2:38]this whole experience come to life on Amazon when it airs October 18th. Okay, so Daniel Jones is
[2:46]the editor of the New York Times Modern Love column, and the author editor of Books Modern Love,
[2:51]50 True and Extraordinary Tales of Desire, Deceit and Devotion. Love illuminated, exploring
[2:56]life's most mystifying subject with the help of 50,000 strangers. The bastard on the couch,
[3:01]and his now most recent Modern Love true stories of love, loss, and redemption. His Modern Love
[3:06]column has been turned into a long-running podcast, and now an Amazon streaming series that will
[3:10]debut on October 18th. Deborah Keegan is the New York Times best-selling author of Shutter babe,
[3:16]Hell is Other Parents, between here in April, the red book, and the ABCs of adulthood.
[3:22]She is a former award-winning war photographer, an Emmy-winning producer, and a columnist of the
[3:27]Financial Times, the observer, and the Atlantic. She's currently a staff writer on Darren Star's
[3:32]'s new show, Emily and Paris. Her upcoming memoir Lady Parts comes out in 2021. She wrote the essay
[3:38]in the Modern Love column, called When Cupid is a Prime Journalist in November 2015. FYI Catherine
[3:45]Keener is now playing her in the show. Justin Macleod is the founder and CEO of the Dating
[3:50]App Hinge, which was acquired by Match, and which, according to Vogue, everyone under 40
[3:55]in the UK appears to be on. He graduated from Colgate College in Harvard Business School.
[3:59]Being reunited with his college sweetheart is not only being made into this Amazon TV series
[4:04]episode, but also a film by Mason Novick, who did Juneau and 500 Days of Summer.
[4:10]Kate and Macleod is the co-founder and formulator of Kate Macleod and the bodystone, a moisturizer
[4:15]in the shape of a stone that dissolves with your skin on contact. She moved the operation out of her
[4:20]living room and opened the butter at tellier in Dumbo, Brooklyn. A former bakery owner,
[4:25]Prey Street Chef and Goldman Sachs exec, Kate graduated from Wellesley College and the
[4:30]Courtauld Institute. So that's everybody. And now enjoy while we all got together, I think I asked
[4:36]one question and listened to this incredible true story unfold and let it inspire you the way it
[4:42]did all of us in the room. All right, so welcome everybody. I have a whole group here today on
[4:48]mom's in a time to read books. Do you want to introduce yourselves? I've never done like a
[4:52]so many people podcast. A panel on Deb Koopaykin and I wrote the article for the modern love story.
[4:58]I'm Justin Macleod, founder of Hinge, interviewee, and the modern love story.
[5:05]I'm Kate Macleod, I have a company that makes body moisturizers, but I also called off a wedding
[5:11]and came back from my first love, Justin, because of this whole modern love story, which we'll get to.
[5:17]And I'm Dan Jones, the editor of the modern love column in the New York Times.
[5:21]And I had a glimpse at the editing after Dan tore apart the bio. I wrote about him.
[5:28]I was like, oh my gosh, maybe it's because he's the editor at this major column that I made
[5:32]your new safer, but I know I'm totally embarrassed by my comments or whatever else I did around.
[5:37]So anyway, that's okay. That's okay. I can take it. I'm good with it. Okay, so who wants to jump in and tell
[5:44]the story of what happened? Justin, why you start and I'll fill in and... Sure, I can start.
[5:50]Well, I don't even know where to begin, really. I mean, I guess I'll start in the middle.
[5:54]And you just raised it, so yeah, immediate stress, which is that this really started because
[5:59]I was running Hinge back in 2014 and I got a call from or an email, I guess. And I remember it.
[6:08]And asking, I think you were looking for like... I was looking for stars.
[6:12]Or a story.
[6:15]At the time, I just got in that job at what was it called cafe.com that then became the mid.com
[6:21]that then blew up, but I needed to produce a story every single day. So I was like, okay,
[6:26]what are we going to write today? Well, I met this amazing guy on Hinge. Like, one,
[6:30]I just interviewed the CEO of Hinge because that would be a fun story. How did you start your
[6:34]dating app? So we met.
[6:36]Yeah, and you came to me and you're like, well, I downloaded this app and the first guy who popped
[6:40]up for me, I matched with and now we're in love and like, how did you figure this out? Like,
[6:45]what did you do? And I, you know, I was lucky. I got lucky. And so we had like a great
[6:52]interview. It was like very standard about, you know, the founding of Hinge and how we got here.
[6:57]And we were wrapping up and you were getting up to just kind of...
[7:00]I had to go pick up my kid at school. I was like, oh, I got to go shoot. Yeah.
[7:03]And she asked this one final question, which was, have you ever been in love?
[7:08]It was like a throwaway question. I think she was like running out the door. And I was like,
[7:12]well, one so long time ago, but I didn't recognize it until it was too late. And so she kind
[7:18]of stopped and turns and she asked me to tell her the story. And so I told her the story of
[7:25]Kate of my college girlfriend that I was totally in love with. And I, it sort of screwed it up
[7:33]because I had a very sordid past of... Do you like some alcohol? And all kinds of
[7:40]reabs. And it was a wild story. And I kind of just at the end of it all told Kate to sort of
[7:46]save herself and run away, which she wisely did. And then four years later, after I'd like cleaned
[7:50]up my act, I had reached back out to her while it was in business school. And she politely declined
[7:58]my... I reached out to her to say, like, you know, come back to, or at least let's meet up.
[8:04]Are you living in London at this time? She's okay. It's such a long story. Kate had moved to London.
[8:10]And I reached out to her and she said no, and I was heartbroken. And sort of Deborah pulled
[8:14]out at me that really Kate was the reason for hinge. I mean, I was heartbroken. And then the idea
[8:20]for him to spawn with a few weeks later. And that was it. And I said to you at the time,
[8:26]I was like, you just emailed her? Like, that's not... If you really love her, you gotta go after
[8:30]her. And then I told him the story of this guy that I was dating back in 1989, who I met in Jamaica.
[8:40]And then we spent a beautiful week in London together. And then he was supposed to show up in
[8:45]Paris and never showed up. And I thought he'd stood me up. And I found out 20 years later because
[8:49]that was back in the day before email and Facebook. And like, being able to keep track of people
[8:53]that he had showed up in Paris, but didn't have... Like, it lost the piece of paper with my phone
[8:59]number on it. And ended up seeing it youth hostile all weekend. And like, I know it's so sad.
[9:04]And for us, when this young man and I met up 20 years later, both married with three kids,
[9:10]and you know, love doesn't go away, right? It just is there. And so I told him the story,
[9:16]and I said, if you love her, don't end up like me. 20 years later, we're dreading not going after this
[9:22]person. I mean, I thought I was stood up. But like, just put your body where your beliefs are.
[9:27]And thank you for that.
[9:32]Something kind of jumped over it, but it had been a very, it had been like four years of many back
[9:39]imports and even on my part of transfer of universities just to like get my life back together.
[9:44]Because when love happens and it's true and it's real like that, it can really just render you.
[9:50]I was so distraught emotionally. I couldn't get anything done. And so when he had come back after
[9:55]four years of silence, I just thought, I can't trust this. I can't.
[10:00]Do it again, and I need it a little bit more of a grand gesture. I needed to know he was really serious
[10:06]And I was afraid to do that because you know I'm having screwed it up so many times before
[10:11]Really putting yourself out there. It wasn't so much. Well, I guess it was my I mean in retrospect
[10:16]It really was my risk, but it was the risk of hurting her again that I was afraid to like put myself out there so much because then she would maybe could actually come back
[10:30]And then I would screw it up again, and I think that was the big fear for me
[10:35]And so you told me to go over there and like listen, you know crazy lady
[10:39]it's been seven years and
[10:42]She's getting married in a couple of months and really it's you know
[10:46]She like lives in over in Europe, and it's just it's too late and you're like it's never too late
[10:52]You got to go if they were too late and also she'd been engaged for two years. I was like that's a bad engagement
[11:01]but
[11:02]Yeah, I was just incense this one final email in February of 2015 and it said he actually thought I still lived in London
[11:11]I was living in Switzerland at the time and he said I can't believe we're never gonna see you again
[11:16]I'm gonna be in London launching hinge next week. Meet me for coffee. Just 15 minutes. Hello goodbye
[11:22]And I got it, and I just something in me. I had never stopped thinking about Justin
[11:29]I really had a quick
[11:31]Interjection which is that I after that one time I reached out and she said no, then I would write her at least every year on her birthday
[11:39]to
[11:40]And sometimes it would be like oh, you know, I can be friends now like maybe we can be friends and then the next one
[11:46]I'll be like I'll come over to London with an engagement ring like anything and I was always
[11:51]Samarily ignored. I didn't even know whether she was getting them like maybe she just blocked me
[11:54]I didn't know and until until I said the engagement one at which point I got blocked on all forms of social media
[12:00]So I did not and let's just I'm gonna cut in there. Just want to
[12:05]Is basically when we finally split up I kind of came to this internal realization that I just assumed that the love wasn't reciprocated and that
[12:15]What you should look for in life is a really good friendship and partnership
[12:20]But anything that passionate is going to blow up and that's just, you know, avoid
[12:27]Avoid that and so I met someone when I came to New York and we were really good friends and we were together for seven years
[12:33]And the reason that none of these emails are responded to is we did have that one point of communication in 2010
[12:39]We had one phone call and then after that whenever I would get one of these emails
[12:43]I would actually open them up with my accent. We would read them together because I did not want
[12:50]There to be any secrets. I remember telling him about that first phone call and I remember saying okay
[12:56]Like this is a relationship. I didn't want to hide things. So if I get contacted again
[13:01]Where team let's open this together and we'll read it together
[13:07]No, I didn't respond. Thank God. Okay. Did not have block emails
[13:10]But after that email that he did send, I think it was in like 2013
[13:23]That's like you know. I really I would come over with an engagement ring my axe was getting ready to propose and
[13:29]That one really struck a chord and yeah, you were blocked
[13:34]I
[13:37]Never stopped thinking about it now and I did start to dawn on me that maybe this wasn't as one-sided as
[13:43]I thought it had been all of that time and I was approaching my wedding and the thing that really bothered me was that I was still thinking
[13:51]There was this nagging it was like little thing in the back of my mind that kept coughing up
[13:55]I was still thinking of this other person so when I did get that last email and for anyone was saying that little gurgling noises are baby
[14:03]It turns out we do have to get there
[14:14]When I got that email there was just something that went off in my head that was like
[14:18]You know what this one's for me. It's the only one I didn't share and it's the only one I responded here
[14:23]And I and that was that whoa, I mean there's obviously a lot more that happened and what happened on my end was it was a couple months later and
[14:32]I was out of dinner and as I was walking out of this dinner in
[14:37]New York I happened as I was walking out of the restaurant out of the corner of my eye
[14:41]I saw Kate's best friend from college who I hadn't seen him forever and I walked over and we started chatting and we ended up
[14:50]Walking out together. It was raining so we caught a cab together towards the West Village and we were talking about Kate
[14:56]And so I got out of the car and I like went upstairs and I'm like, okay
[14:58]I'm gonna send like one last email even though, you know, I've been blocked on the social media and she never responds
[15:04]My emails and that was that email and when I and I woke up the next morning and I had a response
[15:10]I mean it was like what if she said she said DM me on Instagram
[15:15]You know, in wanting to like not hide anything from my accent
[15:34]I think I he became a little paranoid and would check my emails
[15:39]Anyway moving up from that I had a food blog back at the time and food pictures were coming really
[15:44]I got Instagram and I just discovered like these direct messages and now I am sure that many of us would have
[15:52]errors go on
[15:56]But that was the only method of communication that I thought was going to be like completely safe and so I
[16:04]My name and
[16:06]Yeah, and yeah, and we started chatting look back and forth. She's like like we were stopped. Yeah, and
[16:13]Well, I mean we started chatting a little bit and you're like I can't talk on this thing and let's blow up my
[16:18]push notifications and she's like just I'll talk to you this weekend
[16:23]I'm gonna be on my own. He's traveling for us. I'll like talk to you on this weekend. You can call me this weekend and
[16:28]Then like Debra's voice like flashes in my head, which is that like you don't
[16:35]So I literally I think it was a it was a Thursday morning
[16:39]I just literally just like in the movie is like drove to the airport like ask for a ticket to Switzerland
[16:45]And got on the explain and took a red eye. Wow, and I have to say like imagine
[16:49]It's a February morning in Zurich. There exists like stunningly beautiful city and the mountains are all around and it was cold
[16:57]And yeah, I was really excited to chat with him
[16:59]And I remember that morning. I got up early and I downloaded the vow and the notebook and
[17:09]This is like this thing and I literally was like all cuddling bed in my pajamas like drinking cocoa
[17:15]And I sent him a message like I am ready to talk when you are and it was almost instant
[17:21]I got I'm here and I was like what do you mean? You're sure you're sure like you're ready to speak or he was like no
[17:28]I just landed and
[17:30]No, I said I would speak to him on Friday morning
[17:34]Not in person
[17:37]That's a grand gesture. Well, I know it's taking the advice. Yeah
[17:41]I think I almost broke a tooth tripping to get into the tub like clean myself up and yeah
[17:47]And then like a few weeks later. He calls me up and he says oh, I wanted to take you out
[17:52]But what was like gaffa? We're not a few weeks later. Like literally the next day
[17:57]I said I send you a email and we just already decided that like Kate's going back to America
[18:07]It took us all of like a day
[18:10]I'm basically we didn't get up for eight hours and
[18:14]They were super sweet. We didn't even order water and we just sat there talking. I mean yeah
[18:20]So we yeah, I guess we skipped over that but I so I let her know I've landed and just like well
[18:24]We're meeting we're meeting. I'm like I
[18:26]Need to we're so I'd like I didn't sleep out all in the planes. I was so nervous. It was like throwing up in the bathroom
[18:31]Just like no, I was like super romantic and
[18:35]So like I need to go to a hotel and like sleep for a moment. I'll meet you. It's afternoon
[18:38]And I I've got to say like part of it was a grand gesture
[18:41]But honestly part of it was just closure like she's getting married in a month and
[18:47]I asked where's the fiance in during the stretch?
[18:50]Well, yes, he was out of town this weekend
[18:55]And I had never done anything like this before
[18:57]but we had our own problems
[19:00]and
[19:01]Whether or not
[19:02]Justin and I were going to work out or still going to work out like
[19:07]It's actually a completely separate thing. Yeah, but
[19:10]No, it was we'll get there, but it's hard in there. There's even feelings
[19:15]Say that
[19:16]One of your reactions with poor God
[19:20]This whole thing in motion and then you're like then you feel bad about it. Yeah, yeah, but you know what I just
[19:25]I don't know I could just tell also didn't you read the article like the silly article I wrote and cafe
[19:31]That's not until we started speaking and then he actually did send it. Okay, and it but it was
[19:37]Things like that were so deeply meaningful to me and did
[19:41]Carried so much gravitas and wait because I still didn't believe that he could be really serious about this
[19:48]And so yeah, he called me let early text me. Let me know he was in Zurich
[19:51]We picked a cafe and
[19:53]I cannot tell you what it feels like the energy coursing through your body when you've dreamt of someone for eight years
[20:00]It was two weeks shy of eight years to the day since we had seen each other, and you're sitting at a cafe and you look up out the window and there that person is walking across the street.
[20:11]I just can't even go in. Like, what that does to your body and he came up and I'll never forget he walked in. He looked up at me and we made eye contact.
[20:19]And he came over and he hugged me and I'm literally like goose pumping out right now.
[20:24]And I think I actually had to push you away. I couldn't physically take it. It was too much and I could just feel the energy running between us.
[20:34]And I mean, as I was about to say, I was like, I've changed so much in eight years. I'm sure she's changed so much. We're just idealizing each other. I'm idealizing her at the very least.
[20:50]You're undergraduates the last time you were. Basically, yeah, I was one year out and she was at her, she was in her senior year.
[20:57]And yeah, we changed so much. We're going to see each other and we're going to like, laugh this off and put some number going on.
[21:04]London, do the Hinge Launch Party and finally get closure and move on with my life. And yeah, that's just not what happened.
[21:12]I just knew within like three minutes of sitting down and hanging out that like, what have I been doing with my life? Like I, yeah.
[21:20]This is so sweet. I feel like this is like a when Harry Met Sally, you know, the couch, like they were totally scenes.
[21:26]I feel like I'm just sitting here in my, like, living room, watching that movie. Like right here, it's amazing.
[21:34]So yeah, that was that. And we sat down and we were like, how did it happen? And we were sitting there and she's like, well, obviously I'm not trying off the wedding.
[21:41]It's like a month away. So, but we'll stay in touch and then like a few hours later was like, well, if I were going to call out.
[21:48]And then I think by the end of it was like, okay, I think I'm calling out the wedding.
[21:55]And then the next day we sent Debra email and I'm like, I have a funny story for you. Let's get together for lunch next week.
[22:02]It was much less like explicit than that. It was more like, hey, I'd like to have lunch with you.
[22:08]Like, we were like, you were like, I'm just going to tell her like, let's catch up.
[22:11]You know, you said, thank you for publishing the article. We got a lot of interest in the app.
[22:16]And I was like, oh, this happens. Everyone's while it's a journalist. You get invited, you know, to have a post article publishing lunch.
[22:23]And so I walked up to the MITRED and I said, oh, I'm meeting Justin McCloud here.
[22:28]So it's table for two. And he kept like running behind me. He's like, no, no, no, table for three. And I thought, oh, he's bringing a publicist or something like, oh.
[22:36]But then he said, I said, three, who are you talking about? And he goes, her. And look at her hair.
[22:44]She was lying because she was late. This beautiful strawberry blonde hair running by the window in a pink coat. I will never forget that image.
[22:54]Never. It was, and I just started crying. You're not even giving yourself enough credit because actually you, and you immediately like, I said table for three and you turn and you were like, no.
[23:03]And then you just started crying. And then, and then we sat down and he like ran around the corner.
[23:09]I tried the whole lunch.
[23:11]The whole lunch.
[23:12]All of you have such Hollywood impulses in your opinion.
[23:15]I know, right?
[23:16]Yeah, I was first and would not hold that information. Like, they went email the person and say, this is what happened. And it's the story. They wouldn't save it for like that moment.
[23:25]So cinematic.
[23:26]And even in the essay itself, that was sort of one of these moments like when I'm editing a piece and I'm reading it.
[23:33]It's like, this isn't even if it happened this way. It's not believable.
[23:37]So we may need to do some work.
[23:40]Like, the scene when you are gathering at the restaurant and the timing of that.
[23:45]And I'm like, it's just not believable.
[23:48]And yet.
[23:49]And yet.
[23:50]I know.
[23:51]So you've been in fiction for sure.
[23:53]I know.
[23:54]But even in my head, I said, oh, there were three weeks between the time that you emailed me.
[23:58]But no.
[23:59]From Switzerland.
[24:00]From Switzerland.
[24:01]From Switzerland.
[24:02]And I'm like, I'm going to eat like, that was going to love this.
[24:04]Oh my God.
[24:06]And then I went back to my office and I told them this amazing story.
[24:09]And then I got fired.
[24:10]Oh no.
[24:13]Yeah, no.
[24:14]Scary mommy, you're a friend.
[24:16]I didn't say that.
[24:17]I didn't say that.
[24:18]Scary mommy had I wrote one article for that.
[24:20]So the cafe.com became the mid.com.
[24:24]And then we bought Scary mommy and then she became our editor.
[24:28]And like soon after that, she calls me and she said, you know, Deb, every time I read one of your stories,
[24:34]I just want to dumb it down and make it shorter.
[24:36]And so I was like, oh, I guess that's not going to work for me.
[24:39]That's not, I don't want it.
[24:41]So I essentially, well, whatever.
[24:43]I don't know if I got fired or we just had a different opinion.
[24:45]And so I was going to write the story of their getting back together for the mid.com.
[24:51]And instead, I had to get a new job because I didn't have a job anymore.
[24:55]And I was going to work for the observer.
[24:58]But then my boss was sexually harassing me.
[25:00]And so I ended up at this horrible PR firm, which I'm not going to say
[25:03]the name of, but that was where I was working as a vice president at a PR firm
[25:07]and writing on the subway there because I had an hour commute.
[25:11]So I like, you, you asked me, where did I write this article on the friggin subway
[25:15]to my other job?
[25:17]Unbelievable.
[25:18]Yeah.
[25:19]And then you just sent it, I sent it to Dan.
[25:22]But Dan and I had worked together.
[25:23]I had done one other modern love.
[25:25]And that first modern love we did the edit while I was literally on the floor
[25:30]of a hospital about to go in for an appendectomy.
[25:33]And Dan was like, are you okay?
[25:35]Should you call someone like decides me?
[25:38]Anyway.
[25:39]So I knew Dan.
[25:40]And I just, I just, he was the first person I thought of because it was a love story, right?
[25:44]It's a love story.
[25:45]And so a modern love story.
[25:46]A modern love story.
[25:47]A modern love story.
[25:48]Several times over.
[25:49]And I sent it to you and you can tell the rest.
[25:51]And then what happened?
[25:52]Yeah.
[25:53]So modern love has a lot of submissions.
[25:55]Maybe eight or nine thousand a year.
[25:57]And it takes us months and months to get through them.
[26:01]But in depth case, it, you know, we worked together before.
[26:05]And she's a pro.
[26:07]She knows a good story when she sees one.
[26:09]So I don't know how long.
[26:11]I don't remember how long it took me to get to it.
[26:13]But I don't think it was that long.
[26:15]Yeah.
[26:16]But I love these stories that have, it's the movie about sliding doors or whatever.
[26:19]Yeah.
[26:20]It's like the famous opportunities.
[26:21]And this had two of them playing off each other and informing each other.
[26:26]And there were parts about it that just, you know, they were true.
[26:29]But unbelievable.
[26:30]And like I said before, the ways that worked and sort of grand gesture.
[26:34]A lot of what I see today and stories that are submitted is this feeling that that kind of remains has lost.
[26:40]That we sort of moved beyond that kind of, you know, no one wants to be vulnerable in the way that just them is describing.
[26:48]But he would have to be vulnerable if he was going to do this.
[26:52]There are too many ways to protect ourselves from that.
[26:56]Like technology is supposed to be the shortcut to love.
[26:59]And instead it's sort of like the armor against love in a lot of ways.
[27:03]Or that's what we do with our phones and all that.
[27:07]And so there's this incredible yearning for connection and a sense of romance and the sense of grand gesture.
[27:15]And really taking a risk, you know, like taking a risk.
[27:19]So this story had all of that.
[27:23]And it was just sort of a joy.
[27:25]But it also had, it made sense of itself, you know, depth talking about sort of how love from the past.
[27:31]That sort of eternal quality of wind that you have that connection that really go away.
[27:36]It made change forms or it may be passed along to somebody else.
[27:41]So there's just a lot, there was a lot going on in the story.
[27:45]I know some pieces I added a lot.
[27:47]I don't remember that this needed to be worked on a lot.
[27:50]I know we talked about it and did some work together in shape.
[27:56]But the real joy was seeing it, seeing it picked for this Amazon series and seeing it with some changes.
[28:04]It's going to be seeing a lot of people in about three weeks.
[28:22]So exciting.
[28:23]Did you get to pick the eight stories on which the series was?
[28:27]That was a process that involved the producers and the Amazon studio executives.
[28:34]We all read.
[28:36]Well, I'm the only one who sort of knows the whole archive of modern love,
[28:40]but he's mostly most readily and John Carney who's the showrunner for the series.
[28:47]He probably read five or six hundred essays.
[28:49]Wow.
[28:50]Really read a lot.
[28:52]And then we shared lists of essays that we thought would be good for the series.
[29:00]And it just sort of boiled down, boiled down, boiled down until it had this sort of nice combination of eight essays.
[29:06]But this one was one of the most promising.
[29:08]It was also one of the hardest to put together because it was two current stories and then two past stories.
[29:15]Then I think we're just like each episode of two or six days of shooting.
[29:20]And which is a lot.
[29:22]So they had to do these sort of two life stories in six days and then figure out how to edit them together in a way that was
[29:29]traumatic and told the whole thing.
[29:32]And they made some shortcuts and made some changes from the real story to make that happen.
[29:38]But it made me weep when I finally saw the fight.
[29:41]I cried too.
[29:43]He showed it.
[29:44]So I got called into the New York Times the other day and Dan said, I'm going to show you the story.
[29:48]And he was interviewing me at the same time.
[29:51]And I just broke.
[29:52]You know, the story is so different and so similar, meaning the truth of the story was kept.
[29:58]And seeing that truth.
[30:00]on-screen, you know, I was weeping, seeing it.
[30:04]It's really good.
[30:05]I love you all.
[30:06]I know.
[30:07]Do we need to see this for you guys?
[30:09]No, not only that, can we just tell you really quick
[30:12]that we were, uh, Deborah called me
[30:15]when one day randomly, I thought randomly in New York.
[30:19]That's randomly, yeah.
[30:20]Yeah, randomly.
[30:21]And she's like, um, so our story, apparently Amazon is,
[30:26]as partnered with the New York Times and their turning
[30:28]modern love into this anthology.
[30:31]I'm like, oh, cool.
[30:32]And she's like, oh, yeah.
[30:33]And also your story is the pilot.
[30:35]I'm like, oh, that's so cool.
[30:36]She's like, also it's being filmed right now in Go On
[30:40]and today is the last day of shooting.
[30:43]And I'm like, really?
[30:44]And she's like, I also definitely tell us, playing here.
[30:49]And so I called Kate, I'm like, Kate, weird news.
[30:56]And I was like, I mean, I'm going.
[30:58]And so I hopped in an Uber and I walked up on the set
[31:01]and it was like a massive set.
[31:03]We're like 150 people in here.
[31:05]And they're like, they're like, who are you?
[31:08]I think this is my story.
[31:13]We sort of like snuck in his extras.
[31:15]I don't know whether we made it into the final cut or not,
[31:17]but we tried to.
[31:18]We're in the front row, the launch party.
[31:21]They changed the name of hinge to fuse.
[31:23]And we were at the fuse launch party,
[31:25]watching, you know, Dev Patel,
[31:28]like a fun stage launching my app.
[31:33]So it was a, yeah, that was a surreal experience.
[31:37]Another, made for all of you in a minute.
[31:39]Can you just have on my laptop and can show it to you?
[31:41]Yes.
[31:42]Are you really?
[31:43]Uh-huh.
[31:44]I don't know what to say.
[31:45]We're turning jobs together.
[31:47]We're just trying to do that.
[31:50]But I think talking about the truth
[31:52]and like what was preserved and just touching on
[31:54]and adjusting can really jump in here
[31:56]because he's massively against, you know, digital addiction
[31:59]because on, but that vulnerability
[32:02]and that I even just being on the set
[32:04]and getting the gist of what the episode was gonna be about.
[32:08]I know that that was kept and that,
[32:11]that risk that we both had to take of like,
[32:14]let's take down the walls.
[32:15]Let's see if we could see if something's still there.
[32:18]And I think what was, what was so unique about our connection
[32:22]is that, and I mean, at least for me,
[32:24]but Justin was my first love.
[32:26]So when we first connected back in 2004,
[32:30]so when I really started dating,
[32:31]I didn't have any walls up.
[32:34]And we did just get to know each other
[32:36]and all of that just did flow out.
[32:38]When you connect with someone on that level
[32:40]and you really share yourself and you,
[32:44]it's moving to stating it's a friendship.
[32:46]It's human connection.
[32:49]And I do think we're lacking that in today.
[32:50]I think Doug's crying.
[32:52]And just like, well, I was just thinking like,
[32:53]I just moved in with my boyfriend into their neighborhood.
[32:57]So now I literally run into them on the street
[33:00]and it's just, you know, and I came over.
[33:03]I came over the day to they had their baby
[33:07]and it was two days later, maybe whatever.
[33:10]And I'm like, I'm bringing my camera and I shot some photos
[33:13]and just, it's still weirdly overwhelming
[33:17]to feel that this love affair that happened
[33:20]back in 1989 that didn't get a chance to live,
[33:23]somehow lives on in that little baby in this room.
[33:27]You know, it's just, it's overwhelming.
[33:30]And not just there, but I mean, I think the other relevant
[33:32]thing is that I was running a dating app and so,
[33:38]because of this whole story and I was running this app
[33:40]that was, it was just a swiping app.
[33:42]There's just another one of those like vulnerability shield
[33:46]swiping app things and this experience
[33:50]because of you, because of us,
[33:52]taught me that love isn't a volume game.
[33:55]It's not about like finding your perfect puzzle piece.
[33:58]It's about opening, it's like softening your edges.
[34:00]It's how you design.
[34:01]Oh, totally.
[34:02]And I can't, and so our love story
[34:04]and I was like, this is so wrong.
[34:06]This is so wrong what we're doing.
[34:08]And so I went to my board of directors
[34:10]and I said, I know like we're growing
[34:12]and I know that everything's going well
[34:14]and I know we have $10 million in the bank
[34:16]but I wanna tear it all down.
[34:18]I wanna start over from scratch.
[34:20]I wanna build something that actually helps people
[34:22]who are really looking for something, find their person.
[34:25]And this is also, I'm just gonna throw this in
[34:28]because you're forgetting this,
[34:29]but the weekend that he realized this,
[34:31]you stayed up.
[34:33]It was Thanksgiving of 2015.
[34:34]It was the same weekend this article was published
[34:37]in the newspaper.
[34:37]And I remember like the last two nights,
[34:39]we were down at your home in Louisville, Kentucky.
[34:43]You literally did not go to bed.
[34:45]And you just sat the kitchen counting
[34:46]like I'm ripping it out.
[34:47]That's so true.
[34:48]It was the same thing.
[34:49]Literally the day that this article came out
[34:51]is the day that I decided, wow, I never even put that together.
[34:54]But.
[34:55]So I did play a role in it.
[34:56]Totally.
[34:57]And now, and now like not just this foot,
[35:00]but I mean literally hundreds of thousands of couples,
[35:03]tens of thousands of marriages, thousands of babies,
[35:07]because of that one question, yes.
[35:10]I just think of like the ripple effect of that.
[35:13]I went into the subway the other day
[35:15]and I saw an ad for hinge and it says,
[35:17]this is we are the app that makes you want to get rid
[35:20]of our app.
[35:21]And design to be deleted.
[35:23]Thank you.
[35:24]Better, better than, and I was in the room.
[35:26]So maybe we'll reconsider our job.
[35:28]But I just like again, I mean, this story makes me
[35:30]burst out crying all the time.
[35:32]I was sitting in the subway.
[35:33]I see the atom like.
[35:37]Because I know that he changed it after he met Kate.
[35:40]And now everybody that I talked to all my single friends
[35:43]like hinge is the best, because it asks you
[35:47]these really vulnerable questions.
[35:48]And you have to put yourself out there like that.
[35:51]And all of those prompts that like,
[35:52]so he rebooted the app and then as the app started
[35:55]to develop and grow with time, then the prompts came on
[35:58]and that kind of trapped with like,
[36:00]you know, when I first got back,
[36:02]everyone was like, oh, this is a fairy tale.
[36:03]Yeah, it's two strangers living in like what,
[36:06]340 square foot video, go ahead and see
[36:09]each other in eight years.
[36:09]And we had a lot of work to do.
[36:11]So as we became more vulnerable with each other,
[36:14]like literally that vulnerability is reflected
[36:16]on how the prompts that came on to hinge.
[36:18]I guess so.
[36:19]I mean, that's interesting because like the most popular
[36:22]one, I love column by far.
[36:24]Actually, that was popular article in New York Times
[36:26]was the 36 questions, you know?
[36:29]I love that one.
[36:30]They're all about vulnerability and it's all about sort of
[36:33]putting vulnerability on an equal, you know, equal footing.
[36:37]So that both people have to participate equally.
[36:39]The scariest thing is who's gonna do it first
[36:42]or who's gonna do it more or whatever.
[36:43]But yeah, so those questions, which I imagine
[36:46]are the same kinds of things that you have as prompts.
[36:48]It's a game, but it's a game with integrity and it's a game
[36:51]that really works.
[36:52]Well, I feel like the people in this room are responsible
[36:55]for like all the love in the university.
[36:57]I am just like the last to be 70% of it.
[37:03]Right, well, I think our time is kind of up.
[37:07]But thank you so much for sharing this story and for you
[37:11]for getting the baby to be born and all this love to it.
[37:14]I think she had a little bit more to do with getting the baby.
[37:17]All right, good job.
[37:18]Good job, Patrick.
[37:19]Good job, Patrick.
[37:21]Well, thanks for sharing your story with listeners of Momstone
[37:24]of Time to Read Books.
[37:25]Really appreciate it.
[37:26]Thank you.
[37:27]Thank you.
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[37:31]the Women's War brand that creates elevated essentials
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[37:37]Thanks for listening to Momstone
[37:39]of Time to Read Books.
[37:40]You can follow me on Instagram at momstonehavetime to read books.
[37:44]Thanks so much to Steve and Ryan at Texture Sound
[37:47]for the Sound Editing.
[37:48]And thank you to Morning Moon Productions
[37:50]for providing this fantastic intro and now trim music.
[37:52]Thanks for listening.
[37:53]You could always email me at zibiadzibiowans.com.