Susan Shapiro, THE BYLINE BIBLE
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[0:49]I'm here today with Susan Shapiro, who is the award-winning Manhattan writing professor
[0:53]and best-selling author of 12 books, including five men who broke my heart,
[0:58]and lighting up how I stopped, smoking, drinking, and everything else I loved in life except sex.
[1:03]She has written for The New York Times, The Wall Street Journal, The Washington Post,
[1:06]and New York Magazine, among many other publications.
[1:08]Her latest book is The Byline Bible.
[1:10]Get published in five weeks.
[1:12]She teaches writing classes like Instant Gratification Takes Too Long at NYU,
[1:15]the new school, and in private workshops.
[1:17]She currently lives in Greenwich Village.
[1:19]New York with her husband who is a screenwriter,
[1:22]and she was my teacher at the new school.
[1:24]So welcome to Susan Shapiro.
[1:26]Thanks so much for coming on, Mom.
[1:27]So don't have time to read books.
[1:28]My pleasure.
[1:30]So this is a super special episode for me because I took a Seuss class at the new school,
[1:35]and I think 2004.
[1:37]I was trying to write full-time for a little bit,
[1:39]and Seuss class was so amazing.
[1:42]I taught you how to get published in magazines and newspapers,
[1:44]and I swear to god everything I've written since is because of you.
[1:48]That's ever been published.
[1:49]Thank you.
[1:50]Yeah, I remember you got published during the class.
[1:52]You were one of the stars.
[1:53]Oh, thanks.
[1:54]Exciting.
[1:55]Anyway, I've been following you ever since.
[1:57]your whole career, your books.
[1:59]Two of your books are some of my favorites.
[2:01]Five menu book, my heart, and lighting up.
[2:03]We're too or so good.
[2:04]I'm like a memoir junkie.
[2:06]So thank you.
[2:06]Well, so I read about you and New York magazine,
[2:08]and I'm reading about this famous podcast with all these famous writers,
[2:11]and I was like, how come I never get to be on cool podcast?
[2:14]And I'm like, Zippy, I know that name.
[2:16]But then I googled and you had another name in my class.
[2:18]And I'm like, but then I did, and I'm like, oh my god, it's her.
[2:21]So it's like, yeah.
[2:22]So this is so exciting.
[2:24]Oh, it's so exciting for me.
[2:25]Now you have a new book out.
[2:27]Your 12th book called the byline Bible
[2:30]get published in five weeks, which is basically like the essence
[2:33]of all your amazing classes.
[2:34]Exactly.
[2:35]So in the byline Bible, just we'll start with epic.
[2:38]Great.
[2:39]You teach all of your hard-earned tricks of the trade.
[2:43]How have things changed since I took your class in 2004?
[2:46]Do you give the same advice?
[2:48]What are you like the time-honored pitching traditions?
[2:51]Like, what's changed the most?
[2:52]Obviously, the landscape has changed so much.
[2:54]Well, interestingly, what's the exact same
[2:56]is that everybody wants to get published that I know.
[2:58]And that nobody teaches you how to do it, you know?
[3:00]So I did a MFA from NYU.
[3:03]I've taught it Columbia MFA program.
[3:04]I've taught it NYU journalism school at MFA.
[3:08]The new school, you could pay $70,000 a year
[3:11]and you come out of it after two years,
[3:12]not even knowing how to write a cover letter.
[3:14]So that's always what bothered me, because as much as I love
[3:17]reading and studying with famous authors,
[3:19]I didn't just want to memorize their work
[3:21]or analyze story, structure, and narrative voice.
[3:24]I wanted to figure out a way in.
[3:26]So, fascinatingly, it seems like nobody really is teaching
[3:30]what people really want to know.
[3:32]So luckily, I have still the classes not only fill up,
[3:35]I know, two and three and four sections of them.
[3:37]Why do you think nobody wants to teach it?
[3:39]I don't know, I think there's a lot of reasons.
[3:40]I think that, on one hand, you get the snobbiness of,
[3:44]you know, this is literature, you know?
[3:46]So you don't want to talk about that.
[3:47]Number two, I think a lot of people don't know.
[3:49]I mean, if you really look at a lot of the administrators
[3:51]for example, aren't published, you know,
[3:54]where the people that are heading the programs
[3:55]or they don't make a lot of money.
[3:56]I do think you get people that really don't want to share
[3:58]their secrets, you know, like they took them a long time
[4:01]to get an agent or a book editor
[4:03]or a New York Times editor.
[4:04]So somehow they get it in their head that like,
[4:06]I have to hoard this and I don't want to share it
[4:07]or a student would embarrass me or something.
[4:10]So that effect, and pretty early on, when I started,
[4:13]I got together with some friends for a writing group,
[4:15]people that I knew from NYU and I worked at the New Yorker
[4:18]as an editorial assistant, and we all band together
[4:21]and shared contacts.
[4:22]And within an amazingly short time,
[4:24]everybody was getting published
[4:25]and everybody was helping each other.
[4:26]And I kind of thought, well, my friends and colleagues
[4:28]that are hoarding their contacts aren't getting anywhere
[4:32]and we were just exploding.
[4:33]So I think at that point, I just decided
[4:34]I'm not going to be a hoarder.
[4:35]I'm just going to share contacts
[4:38]because I thought that was good karma.
[4:39]And it has been so people, so luckily the classes
[4:42]are still filling up, people still want to write.
[4:44]The great thing is that there's a million more websites
[4:47]and webzines and different verticals of newspapers
[4:50]and magazines, so there actually is probably more places
[4:52]that a beginner could just start out, which is fantastic.
[4:56]And I guess the downside would be in the past,
[4:59]maybe your average person that got published
[5:01]to my class could get $1,000 when editors
[5:04]were paying a dollar a word, and now it's closer
[5:06]to $100.
[5:07]But there's still ways around that
[5:09]that the paper magazines still sell.
[5:11]Do you still have a thing where if somebody gets
[5:13]a four figure?
[5:14]Yeah, they still owe me dinner.
[5:15]They still owe you dinner?
[5:16]Yeah, and by the way, I knew it did.
[5:18]Actually, this will be, this is better than dinner.
[5:20]And interestingly, I have, I think it's 150 students
[5:24]who had book deals in the last 10 years.
[5:27]So that's, there's really still a lot of money
[5:29]and the advances are between 1,000 and 500,000.
[5:32]So what do they have to give you if they get a $500,000 book deal?
[5:35]You know, I'll tell you this interesting phenomenon
[5:37]that started happening, which was so many of my young
[5:39]students were getting published, and what happens is
[5:41]some of my books are small press and paper back,
[5:44]and also I'm getting older, so I would call
[5:46]Barnes and Noble in West Springfield, Michigan,
[5:48]where I live or when I'd visit an LA.
[5:50]And you know, my first books were like random house,
[5:53]hard covers, I was on the today show,
[5:55]but when you're doing a small book from a small press,
[5:57]they're not as interested.
[5:58]So they were like, well, can you combine with somebody?
[6:00]And then all of a sudden I would have a student
[6:01]that would have like a huge little brown hardcover
[6:04]that was in the times or a New York Times bestseller
[6:07]or an award winner.
[6:08]So I wound up saying, hey, you want to do an event together.
[6:11]So hilariously, now I do.
[6:12]I love doing book events with my students.
[6:15]And they make me seem young and hip,
[6:17]and I could like tell them the ropes of how to get a lot
[6:18]of people, you know, or how to post and tweet about it
[6:21]and stuff like that, but then, you know,
[6:23]they're younger and they're a lot of times
[6:24]younger students, especially my undergrads,
[6:26]they get much more excited.
[6:28]Like I had a student who asked for made us
[6:29]who got a book deal when she was 21,
[6:31]and she became a spokesperson for rain.
[6:33]Her book was Girl in the Woods.
[6:34]And so, you know, so a lot of my undergrads
[6:37]were excited to see her because they look at her,
[6:39]and they're like, I want to do it at that age.
[6:41]So I actually, instead of dinner now,
[6:43]you have to do a book event with me
[6:44]if you get a book deal.
[6:45]So which has been a riot.
[6:46]Totally.
[6:47]I will.
[6:48]So much fun.
[6:49]I've said it here.
[6:50]We're doing event together.
[6:51]Sure, I don't.
[6:51]I also don't have to sell a book to have a book event
[6:53]with you, I would love to.
[6:54]But anyway, yes.
[6:55]Yeah, that would be great.
[6:55]Let's do it.
[6:56]But yes, that's a good incentive.
[6:58]And I do, I sit in my desk all day,
[6:59]so I do walking office hours at night.
[7:02]So you come downtown, if you want to talk out a book
[7:03]with me, I have a lot of students that they bring
[7:05]their tape recorder, and they just like throw out ideas
[7:07]for books.
[7:08]Really, yeah, a lot of books have come out of that.
[7:09]Interesting.
[7:10]Yeah, yeah, I've been trying to mull around
[7:12]some ideas, but I haven't found the one thing yet.
[7:15]So I'll figure it out.
[7:16]I bet you have a great title and a platform already.
[7:18]Maybe that's maybe it's called Mom's Don't Have Time to Read.
[7:21]Well, that was how I started this podcast
[7:23]is that I wanted to write a book called Mom's Don't Have Time.
[7:24]I think that's your book, but I don't know.
[7:26]I've heard parenting essay type books
[7:28]or not that easy a sell at the moment.
[7:30]Oh, I think they are.
[7:31]I'll teach you how.
[7:32]Okay, you come downtown for a walk and I'll tell you that.
[7:35]Did you worry when you were writing this byline Bible
[7:38]that you were giving away all this?
[7:41]I mean, it's one thing to have people take your class
[7:43]and you tell them and you know them.
[7:44]But now you're disseminating this information
[7:46]to everyone who wants to read it at that time.
[7:49]I think we're in for a minute.
[7:50]For a minute, I thought, is this smart?
[7:52]And also that, you know, well, my editors have any room
[7:54]for me because I'm telling everybody all the secrets.
[7:56]But again, I found that the more that I share context
[8:00]and help people, the more the good karma comes back to me.
[8:02]So that was part of it.
[8:04]Also, there's an interesting thing
[8:05]which I do talk about in byline Bible,
[8:07]which is I tell people what assignments they should do
[8:09]and what topics are good and what editors they should try
[8:12]and how they should submit and the word length and everything.
[8:14]But one of the things I say is after you write a first draft,
[8:17]you need to get really tough criticism.
[8:20]And so you could go to a teacher,
[8:22]you could go to a colleague, you could hire a ghost editor.
[8:25]But the truth is, I am like the toughest critic in the world.
[8:28]So luckily, I thought I was giving away too many of my secrets,
[8:32]but luckily I've got tons of people
[8:33]who not only want to hire me to help them,
[8:36]you know, ghost edit their pieces.
[8:38]Like every time I just did an event in LA
[8:39]and I had these three fantastic women from Los Angeles
[8:42]who just moved here for five weeks to take my class.
[8:44]Oh my God.
[8:45]So interestingly, it wound up, again,
[8:47]it was like a good karma thing.
[8:48]And I'm sure you feel it
[8:49]because when you help people, you promote other people's books.
[8:52]I always say to students, they do everything right,
[8:55]they cross the teas and dot the eyes
[8:57]and they're doing everything right,
[8:57]they're not getting a book deal
[8:59]and they're not really being generous.
[9:00]And there is a karma thing
[9:02]and a lot of editors will say,
[9:04]be a good literary citizen.
[9:05]Yes, seven times.
[9:06]Yeah, and help other people,
[9:07]when you help other people or promote other work
[9:09]or even just posting and tweeting writing that you admire,
[9:12]I think you accumulate good karma and people notice,
[9:14]you know, editors and agents
[9:15]because there are so many, you know,
[9:17]selfish assholes in the business
[9:20]that only care about themselves
[9:21]and that won't help anybody else.
[9:22]And editors and agents,
[9:24]I think really notice if someone is being kind or helpful,
[9:26]you just want that you want to work with that person.
[9:29]I mean, as long as you're not doing it for the karma
[9:32]because then it like backfires.
[9:33]You know, like you can't be kind and help.
[9:35]Right. Like, well, you know, I don't know something funny.
[9:38]I think you can because I think doing good is still doing good.
[9:42]So I mean, okay,
[9:43]a campy, your motive can't be,
[9:44]I hate this person's work
[9:45]but I'm going to promote them to fake out everybody.
[9:47]Right, exactly.
[9:48]But if you sincerely like something
[9:50]and you know, and maybe,
[9:51]I mean, people tease me because every day it's like,
[9:53]look at this brilliant piece by this student
[9:54]and this is another brilliant piece by this student,
[9:56]you know, and so people tease me
[9:57]and I guess it does seem a little bit, you know,
[10:00]extreme, but if there's a sincerity attached and if you're trying, I think you can get
[10:05]away with it.
[10:06]That's what I was trying to say.
[10:07]You have to be sincere.
[10:08]I think you could also, but you could be sincere and you could also say to yourself,
[10:14]I don't want to be selfish, jerk.
[10:15]I want to promote other people's work too and just sort of try it and you could stumble
[10:19]a little bit.
[10:20]It's still, I've never met a writer who doesn't, you know, who's not happy when somebody
[10:25]repost or retweets their piece and just says, here's a great piece.
[10:27]I love.
[10:29]So yeah, so I think it's a good thing to keep in mind, but it takes a while to figure
[10:33]out how to do it well, I think.
[10:34]It's a win-win.
[10:35]Yes.
[10:36]Leave it at that.
[10:37]Yes, yes.
[10:38]And actually, by the way, the more you promote other writing, the more it helps you.
[10:42]So just for an example, I've had the honor of working with Dan Jones at Modern Love.
[10:46]I did two modern loves and I have about 40 students who've broken in there.
[10:49]And I always said for a minute, go, if you like a piece, post it, tweet it, share it.
[10:54]And it turns out that, luckily some of my students, but also some of the modern loves
[10:58]have been the most red pieces in the New York Times.
[11:01]And when that happens, then you get the New York Times behind personal essays, which
[11:05]is so cool.
[11:06]And now there's a podcast and now there's a TV show and several of my students are in
[11:09]the new anthology.
[11:10]I just had them on.
[11:12]I had Daniel Jones on.
[11:13]Oh, how exciting.
[11:14]The said lastly, I think I really said this week or last week.
[11:16]Anyway, very recently.
[11:17]Oh, I can't wait for this.
[11:18]Wait for this.
[11:19]I had Deborah Copaica in the ocean.
[11:21]Oh, she's amazing.
[11:22]One of the essays, she's amazing.
[11:23]My former student, Abby Share, is in the TV show.
[11:26]Okay.
[11:27]Yeah.
[11:28]And then I'm Liza Minroy is in the new anthology, and I think a few of my other students
[11:31]are in the new anthology.
[11:32]It's really good.
[11:33]I just finished it.
[11:34]It's so exciting.
[11:35]Yeah.
[11:36]Yeah.
[11:37]Liza is the one her mom was a profiler, an FBI profiler.
[11:38]Yes.
[11:39]Well, he used to get on the dates.
[11:40]Wasn't that a great one?
[11:41]Yeah.
[11:42]And Abby, she was right away.
[11:43]Yeah, that was amazing.
[11:44]Yeah.
[11:45]And Abby's was a beautiful one about how she lost her father, and then there was a father that
[11:47]was kind of like a father figure, older man.
[11:50]Yes.
[11:51]Yeah.
[11:52]So that was a great one too.
[11:53]And how amazing does it feel to you then?
[11:55]When you see the work, you're like outreading, and it's your students, is that just like
[11:58]the best?
[11:59]Like the super fulfilling?
[12:00]It's very exciting.
[12:01]And what happens is, you know, I've been doing this for so many years that when I first
[12:04]moved here, I moved here from Michigan.
[12:06]And you know, the first piece I ever had in Cosmo, I think I ran 20 blocks and high heels
[12:09]to buy out every, you know, copy in the newsstand.
[12:12]And I will say at a certain point, I mean, even with books, it's my 12 book, and they've
[12:16]all come out in paperback and hardcover, and I'm in a lot of anthology.
[12:19]So it's still exciting.
[12:21]But I will say there's something about helping someone with their debut clip.
[12:24]Like I had several students this term, first piece ever in the New York Times and the Wall
[12:28]Street Journal and the Daily News, just my class Wednesday night.
[12:31]And that's exciting because then it's vicarious, it's vicarious thrill.
[12:35]Wow.
[12:36]And also it makes me feel like all the years that I put towards this and there's been a
[12:39]lot of rejections and there's been a lot of banging my head against the wall and a lot
[12:42]of mistakes.
[12:43]So then I feel like it's all worth it, you know, because that's what I tried to
[12:47]instill in byline Bible and in my classes is like take all the mistakes and the stupid
[12:50]things that I did and sort of phrase it in a way so that don't do this, do this instead.
[12:54]I wish I would have done this instead.
[12:56]In fact, my first book, five minute book, my art came out when I was 43 and I have so
[13:00]many students in their 20s and 30s that are doing books and it's very exciting.
[13:04]And sometimes it's funny because I read their bios and I teach them how to do the bios.
[13:08]And they just have these gorgeous bios and my bio was just so messy.
[13:11]I was just doing every stupid kind of writing for every newspaper magazine in the world.
[13:15]So it's kind of a thrill to, it's almost like getting a do over in a way.
[13:20]I feel like the don'ts in your book were particularly good, especially like the cover
[13:23]letters because those are so important.
[13:25]And I think of you two whenever I'm trying to write somebody or that and like the timely
[13:29]leads, like how you have to hook everything, right, something topical.
[13:32]But in your list of don'ts, like don't be like, you know, now I can't think of anything
[13:35]funny.
[13:36]Of course, that was amazing.
[13:37]Don't start with though.
[13:38]I've never read your publication before.
[13:39]Exactly.
[13:40]Yes.
[13:41]Though I've never been published in my entire life before.
[13:42]Oh, this one I hate because I say to my students, you can use my name.
[13:45]And I always say, just say, my teacher, Susan Spiro gave me your name and they always
[13:49]write the editors.
[13:50]Susan Shapiro told me I should send this to you because you pay a lot of money and I want
[13:53]to get a book deal and a bunch of her students.
[13:55]Stop it.
[13:56]Yes.
[13:57]I get editors who call me and they're like, you know, would you please tell your student
[13:59]not to write this?
[14:00]Oh my goodness.
[14:01]Is that hilarious?
[14:02]Well, I think it would show either cover letters first before they go out.
[14:05]You should ask everyone to see see you from now on.
[14:07]I know.
[14:08]Right?
[14:09]I mean, that's terrifying.
[14:10]I know.
[14:11]It's hilarious.
[14:12]Oh my gosh.
[14:13]Wow.
[14:15]I bet.
[14:15]I mean, I don't know.
[14:16]But then you know what?
[14:17]They call me screaming.
[14:18]Then the next day they're like, OK, no, I'm buying this piece.
[14:21]So there you go.
[14:22]Yeah.
[14:23]I'm just working with a student now who, this is actually a good karma story.
[14:27]I had an editor at the New York Times magazine who bought my work not long ago and he
[14:31]has a brother in California who's an actor and I was doing some events out in LA and
[14:35]he said, invite him to your event.
[14:36]And so I helped him with the piece and a bunch of great stuff just happened and his piece
[14:41]is going to run in the New York Times style section.
[14:43]And I know he's going to get a book deal out of it.
[14:45]So it felt like that was a great karma thing.
[14:48]So I feel like you've taught so many people, so many amazing things.
[14:51]What are some of the things that you've learned?
[14:53]And this is like a cliche type question.
[14:55]But even in byline Bible, you shared a lot of amazing stories that happen with your students.
[14:59]Have you gotten any good tips even about your own writing?
[15:02]Not just like life lessons, but like things that students do that you're like, oh, that's
[15:06]a good idea.
[15:07]I don't know.
[15:08]Well, I mean, the greatest thing about having young students is I want to be young and
[15:11]I want to be hip and I want to be woke and I want to be cool.
[15:14]So that's been amazing.
[15:16]And I think that that informs my work a lot.
[15:18]And I do, I have a lot of writing workshops and critique groups and question answer sessions.
[15:24]And yeah, I definitely incorporate what they say.
[15:26]And I have very, very important for me to what do they call them readers, early readers
[15:31]of my work.
[15:32]Yeah.
[15:33]So I definitely have incorporated tons of important things that they've taught me.
[15:37]I mean, everything from sexual fluidity to using the right pronouns, to pinpointing
[15:45]subtle racism or homophobia or xenophobia that I wasn't conscious of.
[15:51]Yeah, there's, I think that sensitivity readers definitely have sensitivity readers now.
[15:57]And makes me feel younger, makes me, I mean, it's hilarious too, because I'll start
[16:02]out with a reference like I'll say Mary and Rhoda and I'll be whoo, whoo.
[16:06]And then I'll mention, you know, a sex in the city and they're like, whoo, you know,
[16:09]and then girls, girls is off too, you know, he's already off, but you know, gossip girls
[16:13]off, regular girls is up.
[16:15]So my young students are telling me like, oh, interestingly, one of my former students
[16:20]is now writing for bold type, Wendy Streaker.
[16:24]And so they have like a hot new one that I'll use, which is about a bunch of young women
[16:27]in New York who are working for sort of like a cosmo like magazine or, you know, younger
[16:32]on TV.
[16:34]So interestingly, a lot of my students between their books and by the way, the me too,
[16:38]there's a lot of things that I used to say that my students are like, you're not allowed
[16:41]to say that, you know, that's not, oh, that's not cool.
[16:43]You can't do that.
[16:44]Like just for an example, you know, I'm always trying to help as much as I can and a lot
[16:48]of them are writing about really heavy stuff and I'll say things that are offensive that
[16:51]I don't even need to be, you know, kind of like, you know, don't wear a mini skirt and
[16:55]drink seven, you know, have seven drinks and get stoned and then go to a guy's apartment
[17:00]by yourself.
[17:01]Don't do that.
[17:02]And they're just like, you know, rapist cause rape.
[17:05]My skirt doesn't cause rape.
[17:07]Me going to the apartment doesn't cause rape.
[17:08]And I'm like, okay, sorry, you're right, but still don't get stoned or they're, you
[17:13]know, but I still not a great idea.
[17:14]But I like hearing it.
[17:15]I like understanding, you know, and so I feel like it's a way to stay young and to stay,
[17:19]you know, to understand what's going on, which then helps me be able to help them in
[17:23]terms of writing.
[17:24]And you have such an incredible body of work.
[17:26]I mean, the one thing that you're so good at in all of your essays and in your books
[17:31]are that is that you have such great ideas.
[17:33]They're also clever and it makes you immediately interested versus like a lot of books,
[17:38]which sounds very similar maybe to other books.
[17:40]So for example, like take five men who broke my heart, start with that, like what was
[17:43]that about?
[17:44]How did you think of that?
[17:45]And then we'll go from there.
[17:47]So five men who broke my heart.
[17:48]Okay.
[17:49]I'll tell you the real story.
[17:50]Okay.
[17:51]Because a lot of writers, I think are listening to this and a lot of my students, okay.
[17:55]So I started writing a book about a friend of mine from the New Yorker whose father
[18:00]was a famous fiction writer, mounted Mary to my brother and moved to Michigan and he's
[18:06]a doctor like my father.
[18:07]So I wrote a piece I think for a woman's magazine that did very well that got optioned
[18:10]about two women who switched lives.
[18:12]So I said, okay, I'm going to write a book about this because everyone said, oh, it's
[18:15]so great and it's so funny.
[18:16]So instead of two writers, I made them two photographers.
[18:18]I called it overexposed and I tried to sell it and everyone said, oh, it's so funny.
[18:23]This is so great and for seven years nobody bought it.
[18:25]And at this point I'm teaching and I'm helping other students get published, publish books
[18:30]and I can't publish books.
[18:31]I'm like the wedding planner who can't get married.
[18:33]So I always say to my students, get tough criticism.
[18:35]I'm a tough critic.
[18:36]Ask for good criticism.
[18:37]So I have this great friend in Michigan who's a tough critic from the Detroit news Laura.
[18:40]So I said, okay, so read this and tell me what's what's going on here.
[18:43]So she reads it and she says, okay, number one, you have no imagination whatsoever, stop
[18:46]writing fiction.
[18:47]She said number two, sister-in-law's is a really boring subject, right about sex.
[18:52]She says number three, you're ambivalent about this person, you write better about people
[18:55]you love.
[18:56]So I'm like, so I shouldn't keep sending it out, put it away and I went home swearing
[18:59]and thinking she's nitty.
[19:00]She doesn't know what she's talking about crying.
[19:02]Next day I was reading High Fidelity by Nick Hornby and he has this scene where he goes
[19:07]back and he remits his top five heartbreaks and he, you know, when a man does it, they look
[19:12]at the woman and they say, oh, she's still hot, I'll still fuck her and then the whole
[19:15]thing is over.
[19:16]And I thought kind of a woman was remuting her acts.
[19:19]They would be 20,000 pages of journal entries and there'd be all the therapy sessions and
[19:22]there'd be the gum wrapper from the first date and I was in Michigan when this was happening.
[19:26]So I happened at go out to dinner with an old boyfriend.
[19:28]And so instead of just asking him questions, you know, vaguely, I started asking him
[19:32]what really happened between us.
[19:34]All of a sudden I heard Laura's voice and then the next day I launched a book, Five Men
[19:38]who broke my heart, about a 40-year-old journalist who goes back to meet her top five heart
[19:42]breaks of all time to find out what really happened.
[19:45]So that book sold right away and people said, how long did it take to write?
[19:48]I said, well, I'd bang my head against the wall for 23 years and then it took six months.
[19:52]So that was, you know, random house in today's show and that was foreign rights and film
[19:56]rights.
[19:57]So that was very exciting.
[19:58]And then, at the time, I was in—
[20:00]Addiction there.
[20:01]I was in therapy because my husband basically said to me, if you don't quit smoking and drinking
[20:04]and drugs, I'm going to divorce you.
[20:06]So I wound up in therapy and I found this brilliant shrink who helped me quit everything.
[20:12]And also helped me do the book deals and figure out how to be a good business person.
[20:17]So I was taking notes during it.
[20:18]So then the next book was lighting up how I stopped smoking, drinking, and everything
[20:22]else I loved in life except sex.
[20:24]So I found out I was good, I was much better at nonfiction.
[20:29]But I will say, even with my nonfiction, I have two really brilliant, amazing writing groups.
[20:33]So I'm bringing in every page to the writing group and then getting a tough critique and
[20:37]then writing it again.
[20:38]And again, I remember with five men who broke my heart when I first brought the first
[20:41]chapter, which was about meeting an ex who had hurt, you know, who had broken my heart
[20:45]whatever.
[20:46]And I brought in this chapter and I wasn't sure what they were going to say.
[20:47]And there was this one really tough critic Marilyn.
[20:50]And I remember she, after she heard it, she looked at me and she said, well, and I
[20:54]didn't get really nervous.
[20:55]I thought, oh, she's going to kill it.
[20:56]And she said, you should have gotten old and bitter a long time ago because this rocks.
[21:00]And I was like, but anyway, so then I started figuring out nonfiction, oh, and not only
[21:05]would I do the writing group, both writing groups and then rewrite rewrite, then I would
[21:09]hire a ghost editor.
[21:10]And there's a whole story about ghost editors, but then I would hire one of the editors
[21:13]I used was a, had been a double day editor for 20 years.
[21:16]So then I hired her and then she helped me.
[21:19]So it was, you know, so it still was a, it was a long process.
[21:22]But anyway, so I got really good at nonfiction and then finally I went back taking what
[21:27]I learned with nonfiction and I went back to that first book overexposed.
[21:32]And I finally rewrote it and I found a great editor.
[21:35]And so from the time I started until the time I got published, it was 13 years.
[21:38]So instead of a book launch, it got a book mitzvah, which is hilarious.
[21:41]Yeah.
[21:42]And yeah.
[21:43]So it took a long time.
[21:44]I mean, because I was writing professionally really, I mean, all through college, but
[21:48]also like starting at age 20 and the, and five minute book, my heart came out at 43.
[21:52]So it really did take a while to figure out, you know, how to do it.
[21:56]But then you have all these other books and you were so kind to bring me the stack,
[22:00]most, a lot of which I had, but some of which I didn't.
[22:02]So I'm going to just go through these quickly.
[22:04]Only as good as your word, writing lessons from my favorite literary gurus.
[22:08]That was an interesting one because I had done a couple books from Random House.
[22:11]So I wrote this book about just these brilliant, amazing people who really helped me career
[22:15]wise.
[22:16]And I gave it to my editor there and my agent and they said, no, and I said, why?
[22:20]And they said, it's not commercial.
[22:21]I'm like, why isn't it commercial?
[22:22]They said, because it's seven profiles of old people, three of them did.
[22:26]So it turns out I went to a small press, but that one, interestingly, my students really
[22:30]liked that one because I tried to give as much information that like, you know, the brilliant
[22:36]things that they said to me.
[22:37]So for example, my cousin, Howard Fast, who is a best selling novelist, at one point,
[22:41]and I think I said to him that I was that I had writer's block and he said, don't
[22:45]be self-indulgent, plumbers don't get plumbers block, wake up in the morning, you get
[22:49]to work.
[22:50]And then he said to me, a page a day is a book a year and I thought about that and that
[22:55]really helped me.
[22:56]So no matter what I do, I mean, one page is 250 words.
[23:00]So basically, no matter what else is going on in my life, I have to write 250 words.
[23:05]Every day I still do.
[23:06]And what's interesting is some of my books are short, they're only 200 pages.
[23:10]So it's actually more.
[23:11]So that's a good way to look at it that all you have to do is you have to write one page
[23:16]a day.
[23:17]So that's a good start.
[23:19]Wow.
[23:20]Can you tell me what you're working on now?
[23:21]Yeah.
[23:22]Yeah.
[23:23]We're working on a couple of projects now, actually.
[23:24]And then I'll go back to the staff.
[23:25]Yeah, sure.
[23:26]So right now, okay.
[23:27]So I did buy line Bible and it did well and it won awards and sold well.
[23:31]So I mentioned in buy line Bible that I think there's a section where I have 27 short pieces
[23:37]that led students to get to literary agents and books.
[23:40]So I guess after that, so many people read it and started calling and said, okay, I like
[23:45]buy line Bible.
[23:46]I did what you said.
[23:47]I published a couple of pieces.
[23:48]Editor's and agents didn't call me.
[23:50]Now what do I do?
[23:51]Or they did call me.
[23:52]How do I get it?
[23:53]So now I'm working on a sequel to it that's called the book Bible.
[23:56]How to sell your manuscript, no matter what genre without going broke or insane.
[24:01]And there's going to be 20 different chapters.
[24:03]And people don't really understand.
[24:05]For example, you say you want to write fiction.
[24:07]There's so many different categories because you could write young adult, middle grade,
[24:11]new adult, romance, thrillers, mystery.
[24:15]Yeah.
[24:16]So each different chapter is going to be a different genre.
[24:19]Oh, perfect.
[24:20]So there I'm working on now.
[24:21]That's fun.
[24:22]And then you should team up with Courtney Mom, who has a new book coming out about after
[24:26]the book deal.
[24:27]Everything you need to know about what happens after.
[24:29]Oh, that's interesting.
[24:30]Yeah, that's a perfect.
[24:31]That would be a perfect combination because mine is how to get the book deal.
[24:34]Exactly.
[24:35]The other book I'm working on is, okay, so I think it was 205.
[24:39]As I mentioned, I wrote lighting up how I quit smoking, drinking, and everything else
[24:43]I loved in life except sex.
[24:44]And that was with this brilliant diction specialist.
[24:47]So I've actually been working on a sequel to that.
[24:51]And I had this huge horrible, unbelievably heartbreaking falling out with him.
[24:55]Oh, no.
[24:56]Yes.
[24:57]And it totally freaked me out because he was for 15 years.
[24:59]He was really like my guru and he helped me get clean in sober.
[25:03]And we had this huge horrible falling out and he would not apologize.
[25:08]Like he just did horrible things and he wouldn't apologize.
[25:10]And I'm the type person that I thought it was the type person that I will forgive anyone
[25:16]anything if they say, I'm sorry, like I had two roommates who slept with my boyfriend
[25:21]in college.
[25:22]They just said, hey, we were on magic mushrooms.
[25:24]Sorry, didn't mean to, okay, I'll forgive you.
[25:27]Just explain it to me.
[25:28]I'm just a very forgiving person.
[25:30]He would not say, I'm sorry.
[25:31]So it kind of made me crazy and it led me on this journey to ask a lot of the gurus
[25:37]in my life.
[25:38]And interestingly, they turned out to be religious because I knew I have a colleague who's
[25:41]an Orthodox rabbi who comes in from Israel who I who actually helped him quit smoking
[25:46]with lighting up.
[25:47]And I have a reform rabbi and a Khasid and then I have a student who introduced me to
[25:52]or Swami, a Hindu student and an imam.
[25:55]And I just started asking everyone their concept of forgiveness and specifically, how do
[26:00]you forgive someone who refuses to apologize?
[26:03]Because it's one thing of somebody, you know, it's, it's, you know, I'm kipper, you know,
[26:07]if somebody repents and wants atonement, of course you should be open to that.
[26:12]But if somebody doesn't acknowledge that they did anything wrong, should you forgive
[26:15]them?
[26:16]Is a dangerous to forgive them.
[26:17]So I just, I basically went and then I wound up asking very close friends and colleagues
[26:22]and students about I wanted to hear stories of someone who hurt them that never apologized,
[26:29]like there were stories in your life.
[26:30]So anyway, it became a new memoir that I'm working on, which is called the forgiveness
[26:34]tour, how to find the perfect apology.
[26:36]You have such great titles.
[26:38]Thank you.
[26:39]So I'm actually right this minute about to send that one out.
[26:41]And it took a long time and there's really some very fascinating stories like there was
[26:45]someone that I met in Michigan, a man who forgave the drunk driver who killed his wife
[26:53]and to children.
[26:54]And he in front of the court and publicly he was able to forgive the person, ask for forgiveness.
[27:00]He was able to publicly forgive them in order to move on.
[27:03]And he came from like a humanistic Jewish.
[27:06]So I asked him and I just had the most fascinating interview with him and I'm like teach
[27:10]me how you do it.
[27:11]And by the way, there's a Holocaust survivor, but I also had a student who writes brilliantly
[27:16]about how she was raped by her father and he died, but she never forgave her mother for staying
[27:23]with them and not protecting her.
[27:24]And she's written some amazing things about that.
[27:26]So her struggle was how do I forgive my mother?
[27:30]And so and it was just fascinating.
[27:32]So I just wound up including all of these amazing stories about people who wound up having
[27:38]horrific things happen then, but found ways of forgiving.
[27:42]And I sort of incorporate all that knowledge into how I want to deal with this scenario
[27:47]and then I got sort of there's a great shocking ending to it.
[27:51]But anyway, so I just finished that, so I'm very excited about that.
[27:53]Wow.
[27:54]Can't wait to read that.
[27:55]Yeah.
[27:56]So that's very fun.
[27:57]What is your trick?
[27:58]Is there a trick to a good title?
[27:59]Like all your titles are great.
[28:01]This is unhooked, how to quit anything.
[28:04]The Bosnialist looks sad or something, but the Bosnialist, a memoir of war, exile and return,
[28:08]what's never said over exposed, what you told me about, speed drinking, say the concept
[28:13]of speed drinking or something.
[28:14]Okay, the concept of speed drinking was after I wrote lighting up that particular therapist
[28:20]who helped me quit everything, he moved away.
[28:23]And I got really nervous because I thought it was going to relapse on alcohol drugs, cigarettes.
[28:28]And he was $200 a session and we got this new insurance where if he went to someone in
[28:33]their network, it was $25 copay.
[28:35]So I was so gun-ho about finding a replacement that I thought for the price of one of
[28:40]him, I could see eight drinks and eight days and instead of speed dating, it's speed drinking.
[28:45]And I mentioned that, oh, one of the shrinks happened to be in the office of my agent.
[28:50]And when I mentioned as the agent, the agent said, write down speed drinking, that Susan
[28:54]Shapiro Ian.
[28:55]And I always say to my students, write the thing that only you can write.
[28:58]If someone else can write, write it, let them.
[29:01]So that's how that started.
[29:03]The funny story with that is, I had this amazing publicist who we were talking about, how
[29:06]can you publicize a first novel?
[29:08]And she said, you never get on TV for a first novel.
[29:10]It's really hard to publish.
[29:12]And it's really hard to promote.
[29:14]And we were sitting at knickerbuckers, this great restaurant downtown, and it has eight
[29:17]booths.
[29:18]And I had this flash.
[29:19]So what about this idea?
[29:20]What about if I have all these shrink friends who've written books?
[29:23]What about if we put a shrink in each booth with their book?
[29:26]And I get all my students.
[29:27]And instead of speed dating, you go around and you have three minutes to tell them your
[29:31]problems and get advice.
[29:33]So I said, that's crazy, right?
[29:34]She's like, we're doing it.
[29:35]So we did it.
[29:37]It was so amazing that I had to keep doing it because everybody wanted new ways of meeting
[29:42]shrinks, got on like 70 of these shows, including the CBS Morning Show.
[29:46]But the most hilarious thing was I wrote a piece called Almost Famous for the Wrong
[29:50]Thing, because I started like Jay Leno at one point, calling me all these people wanted
[29:54]me in Japan.
[29:55]But they didn't know it was a book they just wanted to do speed drinking, but I'm like,
[30:00]I wanna be a speed drinking facilitator.
[30:02]They wanted to do what they wanna do a reality TV show
[30:04]where I'd be the reality TV star doing speed drinking,
[30:07]but I wanna write books.
[30:08]It's a book.
[30:09]Nobody knew it was a book,
[30:10]but it was very fun.
[30:11]And actually, I helped a lot of people get drinks.
[30:13]And probably helped a lot of people
[30:15]with a lot of problems.
[30:16]I think so.
[30:16]I think so.
[30:17]And it was really cool because I only would do the parties.
[30:19]We did a lot of them for charity at housing marks,
[30:21]which goes to age journey.
[30:22]And what was cool is that I would only get therapists
[30:25]who I knew were brilliant and really smart.
[30:29]And there was a youngie in astrologer
[30:32]and a hypnotherapist and a sex therapist.
[30:36]And someone that's specialized in ADD
[30:38]and sleep disorder and psychopharmacologists
[30:40]and different language people
[30:42]from different countries, different languages.
[30:43]So what was really exciting is a lot of my young students
[30:47]didn't know about therapy.
[30:48]And they certainly wouldn't know how to go about getting a shrink.
[30:50]And by the way, how do you find a new shrink?
[30:52]Like you either have to get a recommendation
[30:53]or you have to waste $100 or $200 doing an intake session.
[30:56]And you walk in and you say,
[30:57]oh, he looks like my grandfather.
[30:58]I don't want to talk about oral sex
[30:59]with someone that looks like my grandfather.
[31:01]Forget it.
[31:02]So it was really cool.
[31:03]And so I'd have all these young,
[31:04]interesting, weird, different ages,
[31:06]different backgrounds, shrinks.
[31:08]And they'd give out their cards
[31:09]and they'd give out their books.
[31:10]And so a lot of people wound up trying them out
[31:13]and doing therapy, which is so cool.
[31:15]So I feel like there was good karma in that too.
[31:17]And therapy really saved my life.
[31:19]Because I adore my family,
[31:21]but I felt that it was a very repressed suburban environment
[31:25]where you're never supposed to say anything bad about yourself
[31:29]or your family or the cost-ex'll come and get you.
[31:31]So of course, I felt like I was like the confessional poets
[31:33]who say terrible things about themselves
[31:35]and their family all the time.
[31:36]But so therapy really saved my life in so many ways.
[31:39]So I love being able to pass that on.
[31:40]Wow.
[31:41]I mean, what a gift.
[31:42]That's like a true gift.
[31:43]You know what?
[31:44]Sometimes it really is because sometimes someone will remind me.
[31:46]And I didn't even remember that the therapist
[31:49]the one who helped them get married or helped them have a kid
[31:51]or helped them break through their success blocks
[31:54]or get rid of drug addiction and stuff.
[31:56]So that's exciting.
[31:57]It should be like a whole field.
[31:58]Match, like, shrink matchmaking.
[32:00]I think you should do this as a side business.
[32:02]Well, this is how it's really cool.
[32:04]If I tell you once a month, I still get,
[32:06]and the shrink's loved it because there's really no way
[32:08]to promote a shrink business that's fun.
[32:10]And this would be on TV and it would be on radio.
[32:12]And, you know, it was really exciting.
[32:14]So I still get people that want me to do it.
[32:16]Once in a while, I could do it for charity for fun.
[32:19]But the problem with it is it only works if the shrinks are great.
[32:23]So people all over the country and all over the world,
[32:25]like in Japan, they want me to come facilitate it.
[32:27]But you can't interview a shrink for five minutes
[32:29]and know that they're smart or not.
[32:31]And if you're giving bad advice,
[32:32]even if you're only giving it in three minutes,
[32:34]it's still bad advice.
[32:35]True. So unfortunately, the only places
[32:37]I've been able to do it are Michigan, New York City,
[32:40]and LA because those are the only places
[32:42]I know enough smart therapists.
[32:45]Wait, going back for two seconds,
[32:46]how to come up with a catchy clever title
[32:48]for a book or a magazine to be drinking?
[32:51]No, no, how do you come up with your clever titles?
[32:54]Or do they just come to you?
[32:56]Well, I think unique kind of about all your titles.
[32:58]Thank you. Well, I study poetry.
[33:00]So definitely, you know, I like alliterations
[33:02]and I like, you know, interesting phrases, phraseology.
[33:06]But also really, my writing group is extremely helpful.
[33:09]And quite often what I find is that I write about something
[33:12]and either something like a phrase in the middle works
[33:16]or sometimes I found that the headline
[33:19]that the editor for a newspaper magazine writes helped.
[33:21]So I fixed up 30 couples and at one point I was writing,
[33:25]I wrote a piece about it for the forward
[33:26]and the editor wrote,
[33:28]Secrets of a Fix-Up Fanatic.
[33:29]And I thought, oh, that's fun.
[33:31]So I wound up doing that.
[33:32]And at the time, I had fixed up my editor
[33:34]with the guy that she married.
[33:35]So she got very interested in that topic.
[33:38]So and with Bosni Ellis, so I was working,
[33:40]there was actually my physical therapist,
[33:41]Kenan was the Muslim survivor of the Bosni and genocide.
[33:49]When he had been when he was 12 years old.
[33:52]And when we were working on the book together,
[33:54]you know, physical therapy exercises are so boring
[33:56]and I'm a journalist.
[33:57]So I kept really like driving him crazy, asking him questions.
[34:00]And actually, when I tried to get him to write about it,
[34:02]I remember I said that the first assignment I give my students
[34:05]is write three double space type pages
[34:08]on your most humiliating secret.
[34:09]So he laughed at me and he said, you Americans.
[34:11]Why the hell would anyone do that?
[34:13]Because my students want to get in the New York Times
[34:15]and do book deals and cause it's healing.
[34:17]And he was like, your students
[34:18]get in the New York Times and do book deals.
[34:20]And I said, yes, and I said, I'm some of the pieces.
[34:22]But so when he was writing the story,
[34:24]so what's the most humiliating secret
[34:26]from being a war survivor?
[34:27]And what he never told anybody was that he had a list
[34:31]that he kept of people who sabotaged and screwed up
[34:36]his family and betrayed him.
[34:38]So he had friends and he had a karate coach
[34:40]and he had a teacher where all the gun to his head.
[34:42]And he had kept a list, even though he was 12 years old,
[34:44]because at some point he wanted to go back
[34:46]and confront them about what they did to him.
[34:49]So we called it the Bosnia list.
[34:51]And that was in the first PC wrote.
[34:52]And I thought, that's a great title.
[34:54]Wow.
[34:54]Yeah, so that became a, so that was really cool.
[34:57]So that was a, okay, so the beautiful story about that,
[35:01]which I love.
[35:02]So he did the book together.
[35:03]English wasn't his first language
[35:04]and he still works full time as a physical therapist.
[35:06]So he needed help writing it.
[35:08]So he wrote it and the best story of that
[35:09]was he would tell me the story.
[35:11]And sometimes I would write it in more of a poetic way.
[35:14]So he was telling me why it sucks to be exiled
[35:17]when you're 12 because his older brother had, you know,
[35:20]gone to bars and been to Sariebo, the capital
[35:22]and had all these girlfriends and driven a car.
[35:25]And he'd never done that because he was 12 years old.
[35:27]So when I was writing it, the way I interpreted it
[35:29]as I wrote a line said and I never kissed a girl from home.
[35:32]And he was embarrassed by that and he wanted to take it out.
[35:34]I'm like, no, that's a great line.
[35:35]You have to leave it in there.
[35:36]And then there's a certain place I take author photos
[35:39]on my roof where you could see the whole skyline.
[35:41]So I made him take this great picture on the roof
[35:43]and he was very cute and 30 at the time.
[35:45]So the book comes out, you know,
[35:47]I never kissed a girl from home and he was single at the time.
[35:51]So every woman from the Balkans in the world
[35:53]was sending him like naked photos and, you know,
[35:56]trying to find him on social media and all the grandmas
[35:58]and the moms were saying you should marry my daughter.
[36:01]You should marry my cousin.
[36:02]You should marry my niece.
[36:03]So the sweetest wedding got was just a very unobtrusive
[36:06]little note without a picture that just said,
[36:09]your book meant so much to me.
[36:11]And I lost my father around the time you lost your mother.
[36:14]Thank you for what you did for my people.
[36:16]So he looks her up and she's gorgeous and single
[36:18]and they're now married.
[36:19]Yes, and what was really cool is he wound up in Sarajevo
[36:22]taking her family out for drinks, driving and proposing.
[36:25]So when I said to him, which was so cool,
[36:28]was I said to him, so by being willing to go back
[36:31]to your past, you found your future.
[36:34]So that was a great story.
[36:35]But so I find that that happens a lot, you know,
[36:37]because it's, I am very psychologically oriented.
[36:39]So I do think that, you know, right about your most
[36:41]humiliating secrets, it sounds like it's a fun assignment,
[36:43]but it's also heavy and it's also about,
[36:46]I think it's Arthur Miller, who says the only thing
[36:48]worth writing about is the unspeakable.
[36:51]So it's like really digging deep and finding the things
[36:53]that you're afraid of and not, you know,
[36:55]and sort of putting it out there, you know,
[36:57]and so I think it does great, you know,
[37:00]so great things happen.
[37:01]And I always say to my students that writing is a way
[37:04]to take the worst, your worst experiences
[37:06]and turn it into the most beautiful.
[37:08]It's so nice.
[37:09]Yeah, so that happens.
[37:11]Well, thank you so much.
[37:12]I feel like we're out of time.
[37:13]I could talk to you all day,
[37:15]and I'm so glad we're back in touch.
[37:16]Yeah, this is so much fun.
[37:17]But thank you.
[37:18]Yeah, and thanks for telling me
[37:19]what you think of my online Bible
[37:20]if there's anything else that I missed that I should go
[37:22]back in the evening.
[37:23]I loved it.
[37:24]It was so comprehensive, it was fantastic.
[37:25]And the examples were great, too.
[37:27]Propping up your students again.
[37:28]Fantastic.
[37:29]Yeah, great job.
[37:30]Cool.
[37:30]All right, thank you.
[37:32]This episode has been sponsored by Book of the Month Club.
[37:34]Book of the Month.com.
[37:36]Enter Code Zibi to get your first book
[37:38]for $5.
[37:39]Thanks for listening to Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books.
[37:41]You can follow me on Instagram at Moms Don't Have Time
[37:44]to Read Books.
[37:45]Thanks so much to Steve and Ryan at Textures Sound
[37:48]for the Sound Editing.
[37:49]And thank you to Morning Moon Productions
[37:51]for providing this fantastic intro and outro music.
[37:54]Thanks for listening.
[37:54]You could always email me at zibi at zibiowans.com.