Elyssa Friedland & Kermit Roosevelt III, FIRST STREET
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[1:01]I'm excited to be here today with Alyssa Friedland
[1:04]in person and Kermit Roosevelt III via Skype
[1:08]for a new project called First Street,
[1:10]which has been released on an app called cereal box,
[1:14]S-E-R-I-A-L, cereal box, which is an app that allows you
[1:19]to both read and toggle between reading and audio
[1:23]on your app and is super cool and full disclosure,
[1:26]I actually invested in cereal box a little while ago
[1:28]and think it's just the coolest
[1:30]and this new property came out and it's gonna be a TV show
[1:33]and it's just super cool.
[1:34]So the authors, there are actually six authors
[1:37]who collaborated to do the first street novel
[1:40]on cereal box, Alyssa Friedland and Kermit Roosevelt III
[1:43]who I'm interviewing, also Jasmine Gillery,
[1:46]Katherine McKenzie, Randy Susan Meyers, and Shawn Clamparons.
[1:49]So today I'm with Alyssa Friedland,
[1:51]who's the author of three novels,
[1:53]love and miscommunication, the intermission
[1:55]and the floating felons actually already interviewed Alyssa
[1:58]for the intermission, a graduate of Yale University
[2:00]where she was the managing editor of the Yale Daily News
[2:02]and Columbia Law School.
[2:04]Alyssa started her career working at a law firm
[2:06]before moving to writing full time
[2:07]after the birth of her second child.
[2:08]She is contributed to many publications,
[2:10]including New York, modern bride, real simple,
[2:13]and the Washington Post.
[2:14]She grew up in New Jersey and currently lives
[2:16]in New York City with her husband and three children.
[2:18]Kermit Roosevelt III, who goes by the name Kim,
[2:21]is a writer, author, lawyer and professor
[2:24]at the University of Pennsylvania.
[2:25]His novels include In the Shadow of the Law and Allegiance,
[2:29]a frequent op-ed contributor he has written
[2:31]in New York Times, Time, The Washington Times,
[2:33]and other publications.
[2:34]He is the great, great grandson
[2:37]of United States President Theodore Roosevelt
[2:39]and the fifth cousin four times removed
[2:42]of President Franklin D. Roosevelt
[2:44]and is a frequent keynote speaker.
[2:46]He currently lives in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania.
[2:49]So I'm gonna welcome Alyssa in person, Kim on the phone
[2:53]and you can hear all about what cereal box is all about
[2:56]and this new very exciting project called First Street.
[3:00]So welcome to mom's and her time to read books.
[3:02]Alyssa and Kim are a little double session here.
[3:06]Thank you.
[3:07]So can you tell listeners what First Street is about?
[3:11]Kim, I'm gonna let you do it.
[3:12]Sure.
[3:13]So First Street is a character driven drama
[3:16]that's set inside the United States Supreme Court
[3:18]and the main characters are law clerks for the Supreme Court.
[3:22]So we thought it would be very interesting
[3:24]to take this powerful, important branch of government
[3:27]that operates mostly in secrecy
[3:29]and try to give people a look inside it
[3:31]through the lives of the people who sort of work behind the scenes.
[3:35]So you know, you read about the justices sometimes,
[3:38]you never read about the clerks,
[3:39]but they're there.
[3:40]They're working on all these cases in some situations
[3:43]they're actually very important.
[3:44]Like sometimes they affect the outcome of the case.
[3:46]And interestingly, this whole book has been put out
[3:49]on an entirely new platform.
[3:51]It's not an actual book in your hands,
[3:53]but it's on an amazing new app slash platform
[3:57]called cereal box.
[3:58]So tell me about cereal box,
[4:00]how you got hooked up with it,
[4:02]what it was like to create content
[4:03]for a new service like this.
[4:06]Tell me that whole thing.
[4:07]So our fearless creator is Katherine McKenzie
[4:10]who's had either nine or 10 best selling books already.
[4:13]She writes mostly thrillers
[4:15]and she's just the kind of person who has an idea a minute
[4:18]and probably two ideas a minute.
[4:20]And she came up with this idea.
[4:22]I can't quite remember how she learned about cereal box initially,
[4:26]but she hadn't actually had like five ideas
[4:29]and they rejected all of them.
[4:30]And then this was the one she basically scribbled
[4:32]on the back of an napkin, throw away like expected nothing.
[4:35]And that this was the one that they pounced on.
[4:38]And she, you know, put together her team of writers
[4:42]because unlike traditional books that you find in a bookstore,
[4:45]the idea of cereal box is that it's written
[4:47]like a television show.
[4:48]So we had a writer's room and we all gathered
[4:50]for three days in Washington DC
[4:53]because Kim, I know we'll get to it later
[4:54]because Kim had clerked for the Supreme Court.
[4:56]He was able to get us up behind the scenes tour
[4:58]and we spent three days together.
[5:01]I don't think only two people in the room had ever met before.
[5:04]So here we are with a producer and six of us.
[5:07]We all have different writing styles
[5:08]and we spent three days hashing out a plot.
[5:11]And as far as the app goes,
[5:13]what I love the most about cereal box
[5:14]is that it's a seamless toggle back and forth
[5:17]between audio and reading.
[5:19]So when you're on the subway, it's perfect for commuting.
[5:21]You're reading on the subway
[5:22]and then instead of having to put your book away,
[5:24]you press one button and it switches to audio
[5:27]when it's time to get off the subway
[5:28]and then you walk the rest of the way to work
[5:30]and you're still in the story.
[5:32]I don't know any other platform
[5:33]that does it as seamlessly.
[5:35]And I've listened to a few cereal box books
[5:37]and obviously given the name cereal box,
[5:39]they're meant to be serialized.
[5:41]So if this is successful, it will continue on
[5:44]for multiple seasons.
[5:45]And just to clarify, it's not cereal
[5:48]like you're eating cereal with your kids.
[5:49]It's like S-E-R-I-A-L.
[5:52]So that's right.
[5:52]And it says cereal box.
[5:54]So Catherine pitched different series.
[5:58]They jumped on this.
[5:59]You got in a writer's room.
[6:00]Tell me about your individual contributions.
[6:03]So then with all that data,
[6:05]did you take it back and like go off and write it
[6:08]and then like meet back up?
[6:10]Did you all review each other's work?
[6:11]Like how can you possibly collaborate
[6:13]on a writing project with so many people?
[6:15]Some present.
[6:16]I thought it was gonna be impossible.
[6:18]Yeah, mostly just stylistically.
[6:20]I had read some of the other writers
[6:22]books and they were all fantastic,
[6:24]but we all have our own voices.
[6:26]But I think it's kind of like when you go to another country
[6:28]and you start hearing like their, you know,
[6:30]manners of speech and then you pick them up quickly.
[6:32]Like we all kind of sort of took on each other's
[6:35]like verbal ticks, I would say.
[6:37]Kim and I wrote our chapters together.
[6:38]So Kim, why don't you tell us
[6:39]it'd be how amazing it was.
[6:40]Well, it was amazing.
[6:41]I had never actually collaborated on a kind of writing project
[6:45]with someone before and I was a little bit wary.
[6:47]I mean, I initially was actually brought in
[6:48]just as a consultant.
[6:49]But then I got so excited about the project
[6:51]that I really wanted to do some of the writing too.
[6:54]And the way it worked was we decided,
[6:56]so we spent several days together
[6:58]and we decided sort of who the characters were
[7:00]and what we wanted the big story arc to be.
[7:02]And then we broke out individual episodes
[7:04]and tried to figure out how we wanted those episodes
[7:07]to advance to the larger plot and then the sort of monster
[7:10]of the weak plot.
[7:11]And then, you know, we assigned the episode
[7:13]and Alyssa and I worked together.
[7:16]And we basically just, we talked about it
[7:18]and then we kind of alternated scenes
[7:20]or we picked the scenes that we wanted to write
[7:22]and we sent drafts back and forth.
[7:25]And then when a draft of an episode was done,
[7:26]everyone would review it
[7:27]and everyone would have comments.
[7:29]And, you know, that's where I sort of expected
[7:31]the problems to rise
[7:32]because we have different writing styles
[7:34]and different backgrounds.
[7:36]But actually, I thought it really went surprisingly well
[7:39]and people worked together in a really selfless
[7:43]and not ego driven and dedicated
[7:46]to producing the best collaborative projects
[7:48]that we could weigh, which was really gratifying.
[7:51]It was a great experience.
[7:52]I think we were all really excited for a group project
[7:54]because we're all writers and we're all alone all the time.
[7:56]And so to finally have something
[7:58]that we can work on together
[7:59]and we had like these group text threads going all the time.
[8:03]And like, it was often very funny
[8:04]and like, you know, we're all into the literature.
[8:07]We're all word geeks.
[8:08]And so it was just fun
[8:10]and it was really nice to be able to laugh
[8:12]like during the process.
[8:14]And writing for a different type of medium
[8:16]other than, you know, a long form,
[8:18]we both have written books.
[8:20]Did you try to do anything differently for this audience?
[8:23]Or was it the same?
[8:25]Was it just like, okay, it doesn't matter.
[8:27]Where are the contents going?
[8:28]I'm gonna just write the way I write and make it great.
[8:30]Or was there, were there any elements of it
[8:33]that you consciously changed
[8:34]knowing that it was like an audio on your phone
[8:37]type of medium?
[8:38]I can say definitely yes for that.
[8:40]I mean, especially because cereal box releases
[8:43]the episodes weekly.
[8:44]So you want to end on a big cliffhanger
[8:46]because you want to make sure people come back.
[8:48]So I would say that was the most important thing for me.
[8:52]Whereas like in my novels, yes, of course,
[8:54]it's always nice to hook someone at the end of a chapter
[8:56]but it's not remotely the same pressure.
[8:59]You too Kim, did you have to?
[9:00]Yeah, I think that was a big difference.
[9:02]It wasn't so much that it's gonna be audible
[9:04]was that it's serialized.
[9:06]So we were really writing episodes, not chapters.
[9:09]You know, as Alyssa said, it's sort of more a TV series
[9:13]structure than a novel structure.
[9:15]I mean, we did think you put it all together.
[9:17]It's like a novel.
[9:18]But the chapter structure is really more like the TV episodes.
[9:22]And now it is actually going to be on TV, which is so cool.
[9:25]We hope so.
[9:26]I feel like with Hollywood, you really never know
[9:30]what's gonna end up happening.
[9:31]But yeah, it's very promising.
[9:34]And it was option by, you're not option.
[9:36]Tell me the, where is it gonna be?
[9:38]How could people watch it?
[9:39]Perhaps perhaps.
[9:42]I wish we knew all the way.
[9:43]We don't know yet.
[9:44]We don't know yet.
[9:45]It was, I guess, the rights were purchased by,
[9:47]what is it, 29, 29, 29?
[9:49]29, 29, which is Mark Cuban company.
[9:51]Yeah, so it's in really powerful, good hands.
[9:54]It's super exciting.
[9:55]I have so many businesses that, like,
[9:56]once I get to know Mark Cuban, I can't wait to go on Shark Tank.
[9:59]Totally.
[10:00]Have a lot of ideas.
[10:00]I would have had a slippy a few ideas.
[10:02]Yes.
[10:03]That's so cool.
[10:04]Yeah, no, we're excited.
[10:05]And let's talk a little about the content of First Street.
[10:07]You have, and behind the curtains, as you said,
[10:09]look into what it's like to be a Supreme Court justice,
[10:12]how much Kim was autobiographical based
[10:15]on your own clerkship with Justin David Suter,
[10:18]and how much did you make up?
[10:21]And tell me how you came up with all of this good material
[10:25]to entertain these serialized listeners.
[10:27]Well, other people came up with a lot of it
[10:29]so we brainstormed ideas and we were trying to figure out
[10:32]what exciting cases would be.
[10:34]And really, that's all about what's a hot topic now,
[10:38]what people are interested in.
[10:40]So I clerked a while ago now.
[10:43]So some of my experience wasn't directly relevant
[10:45]in the cases that I worked on weren't the cases.
[10:47]But what I tried to do was to capture the feel of it,
[10:51]because I think there's still a similar experience
[10:55]of sort of going in and being intimidated
[10:58]by the fact that you're at the Supreme Court
[11:00]and you're talking to the justices and the words
[11:03]that you write in your memos might find their way
[11:05]into the Supreme Court decisions and become the law of the land.
[11:08]So there's that sort of majestic experience.
[11:11]And then there's the very real human interaction
[11:14]between the clerks, which is the other part of the drama
[11:17]in this, because the clerks have their rivalries
[11:19]and their friendships, and maybe they have love affairs.
[11:22]And so you've got these really interesting human dynamics
[11:25]with a group of young people who've never met each other
[11:27]before thrown into this very old and very powerful institution
[11:31]where the justices have been there for much longer.
[11:33]I feel like it was like, gossip girl grows up
[11:35]and goes to DC.
[11:36]Totally.
[11:37]Yes, right?
[11:38]It's like the first thing, it's like felicity meets
[11:40]the West Wing.
[11:41]Yeah, totally.
[11:42]I didn't realize what it was like.
[11:44]I mean, I didn't think that when you were clerks,
[11:47]there was this whole community.
[11:48]I didn't even think about it, I guess.
[11:49]I mean, I knew people who have been clerks at times,
[11:52]but this was a really interesting look for a lay person
[11:55]who had never really thought about it,
[11:56]of what it could be like, and even the competition.
[11:58]And do you clerk for the clerk that has the same values
[12:02]as you two?
[12:03]I found it interesting.
[12:04]Yeah, that's something that was really exciting
[12:06]to write about, because I think what I learned from Kim
[12:09]that shocked me, but I guess it makes sense,
[12:11]is that most people graduating law school
[12:14]after when they're ready to interview for a clerkship
[12:18]at the Supreme Court, they interview with every justice.
[12:20]So that basically means you're willing to work
[12:23]for someone whose values or view of the Constitution
[12:26]doesn't align with your own, but you really
[12:29]want to work the Supreme Court, so you take what you can get.
[12:31]That really fascinated me.
[12:33]So yeah, there's definitely ideological clashes.
[12:36]Did you find that in your experience, Kim,
[12:38]that there really were people at a bar after work being like,
[12:43]I don't know, I'm trying to pass whatever,
[12:45]and I just don't believe in it at all.
[12:47]And I mean, it must be hard to wrestle with that intellectually.
[12:51]Well, yeah, I mean, you would get people
[12:54]who had a very strong ideological agenda.
[12:55]You would get people who didn't really care
[12:57]and just one of the prestige.
[12:59]You would get people who matched very well
[13:01]with their justices and referred to on the same page.
[13:03]And then you would get people who sometimes almost by mistake
[13:07]got hired by a justice with whom they didn't agree.
[13:09]And then you'd have that tension within the chambers
[13:12]and the clerk would be like, I feel like this is wrong,
[13:14]but what do I do?
[13:15]And where does my loyalty lie?
[13:17]And in the book, you touch on how the main character's father
[13:23]sort of wanted him to go in a different direction
[13:25]that he ended up going and when he turned down,
[13:27]well, I don't want to give a lot away.
[13:28]But when the main character pursued a different path
[13:31]than maybe his family had intended for him,
[13:33]there became a lot of tension within the family.
[13:37]Did you ever have anything like that
[13:38]given your own family background or anything like that?
[13:42]Well, so with that character, there's some biographical overlap.
[13:46]Not in that particular element.
[13:48]I didn't have, I mean, I didn't have any context
[13:50]in my parents over which justice I was going to flirt for.
[13:52]For one thing, I only had one offer.
[13:54]But my parents would have been perfectly happy
[13:57]with me, clerking for any justice, I think.
[14:00]With that character, I sort of feel like every character
[14:04]I write is me, although I didn't come up with all these
[14:06]characters, it was collaborative.
[14:08]But the way that I write characters is
[14:11]trying to become them.
[14:12]So to the extent that I'm not them to begin with,
[14:15]when I'm writing them, I try to sort of ask,
[14:17]if I were this person, how would I feel?
[14:19]What would I do?
[14:20]It's a little bit easier with some characters than others,
[14:23]I guess.
[14:24]And with this character, I did have some experiences
[14:27]to draw on that were similar to his.
[14:28]And Alissa, do you feel like having not been in this world
[14:32]yourself, your behind the scenes axis,
[14:34]was enough for you to imagine?
[14:36]I mean, your imagination is amazing.
[14:37]You've written all these great novels.
[14:39]But I think it helped that I went to law school.
[14:41]Right.
[14:41]So I would say, yeah, I never clerked at the Supreme Court.
[14:44]Definitely, I found the tour very helpful,
[14:46]just to access, like, I had done the public tour
[14:49]of the Supreme Court a million years ago with my high school.
[14:52]But I didn't remember it.
[14:53]And then going back now, as a graduate of law school,
[14:56]I worked at a law firm having Kim give us like the ins and outs.
[15:00]And just like the majesty of the building,
[15:02]it helped me access certain plot points
[15:04]that I never would have come up with, otherwise.
[15:07]But it was sort of fun to dust off my law degree a little bit,
[15:10]because when we were talking about, you know, different.
[15:12]I mean, we tried to make the book accessible
[15:14]for, you know, non lawyers.
[15:16]And I think you would agree.
[15:18]You did.
[15:19]Good job.
[15:20]Check class, yes.
[15:21]But yeah, it did bring me back to some seminal cases
[15:24]that I remember studying.
[15:25]And so that was just refreshing.
[15:27]And I enjoyed that.
[15:28]I really like writing the fun stuff,
[15:31]like the rivalries.
[15:32]And I like writing, yeah, they're roommates.
[15:34]Yeah, yeah, I know.
[15:35]Our four characters live together in a house.
[15:37]And so for me, like, I'm always going to prefer the fighting
[15:40]over the dirty dishes in the sink and writing
[15:42]like about the hookups over, you know,
[15:45]the nitty-gritty of the cases.
[15:46]But what's so great about first read
[15:48]is that it really does have both.
[15:49]If you had a particular audience,
[15:51]you think this is like, you have to listen to this.
[15:53]If you are XYZ, do you have one or?
[15:55]I think it's like whoever loved the West Wing
[15:58]would really love this, or like the one I'm blanking on,
[16:00]the one with, not Julianna Margules, the good wife.
[16:04]It's a good wife.
[16:05]Like I feel like that's a great, you know,
[16:07]or Veep, because it's also really funny and competitive.
[16:10]Yeah, so I would say, like, anyone who loves those shows
[16:13]would love this.
[16:14]Do you have any fantasies for who would play anybody
[16:16]in the book?
[16:17]Oh, I should have been prepared for that, Kim.
[16:19]Oh, yeah, I know.
[16:20]That's what I would just think we should have done.
[16:22]We want to play the characters.
[16:23]Where's that?
[16:25]Love it.
[16:26]Right.
[16:26]I mean, Kim is very Jack.
[16:27]I'm like, I can be Charlotte.
[16:29]Yeah, I mean, I'm very talented.
[16:31]So yeah, yeah, I don't know.
[16:33]Producers, hope you have heard that these two amazing authors
[16:36]are throwing their hats in the ring.
[16:38]They are now going to be actors.
[16:39]In addition to everything else.
[16:40]We're available.
[16:43]So funny.
[16:44]So having completed the stage of this project,
[16:47]what next are you going?
[16:48]Are you already thinking about the next season?
[16:51]Are you writing the next season?
[16:52]Are you thinking about collaborating on another project
[16:56]entirely?
[16:56]Would you want to make this into an actual bookstore
[17:00]type book versus justice with this content,
[17:03]with new content?
[17:04]So we are definitely interested in writing a season two
[17:08]and actually in order to sell this to more Cuban company,
[17:12]we had to come up with what we, where did we see it going?
[17:15]So we have like a one-pager on season two.
[17:18]And the book doesn't end at the end of the clerks term.
[17:22]It ends at Christmas time.
[17:23]So there's plenty of work to say,
[17:25]but we don't know yet.
[17:26]We haven't been green lit for a second season yet,
[17:28]but I don't know.
[17:29]Well, I shouldn't say, well, definitely do it
[17:30]because we need to negotiate our contract.
[17:32]Yeah, exactly.
[17:33]Exactly.
[17:33]You're not sure we are available.
[17:36]So many competing obligations.
[17:38]Yes.
[17:38]And then I said we do have some other news, Kim.
[17:41]Do you want to?
[17:42]Ooh, news.
[17:43]We do.
[17:43]Yeah, so some of the members of this writing team,
[17:46]including us, has been working on a pilot
[17:50]for Audible Originals.
[17:52]Wow.
[17:52]For Amazon, which is in somebody similar,
[17:55]because it's in the audio format, but it's just audio.
[17:58]And it's sort of more like a radio drama than a book.
[18:02]So it's audio, but it's not narrated.
[18:04]It just sort of acted out,
[18:06]which was a very different writing challenge,
[18:08]because now you can't describe the action at all.
[18:10]You've got to convey it all through the dialogue.
[18:12]I'm feeling like there's a podcast in your guys' future.
[18:14]I feel like that's not too far away
[18:16]from this sort of, that would be amazing.
[18:19]I mean, why not?
[18:20]Why not?
[18:21]So cool.
[18:22]So let's say there's somebody out there
[18:25]who thinks this is just the coolest thing ever.
[18:26]I'm sure there are more.
[18:27]I'm sure there's more than one person
[18:29]who thinks this is super cool.
[18:30]But I love, I find this particularly exciting
[18:33]because reading in today's world, blah, blah, blah,
[18:37]has so many different,
[18:39]there's so many ways to consume stories.
[18:41]And this particular way, cereal box,
[18:43]the way you're doing it,
[18:44]now you're new, Audible, original, whatever.
[18:46]It's just a whole new way to consume stories
[18:48]and material and writing and whatever.
[18:51]Let's say someone's like, I have to do this.
[18:53]This is the coolest.
[18:54]How do you even get into,
[18:55]how do you know how to get into writing a radio drama
[18:59]that'll be on Audible?
[18:59]And it seems like there's an insurmountable amount
[19:03]and like there's a clear path to traditional publishing
[19:05]but I'm not sure what this path is.
[19:07]I mean, as far as the how to write it
[19:10]or how to make the right connections,
[19:12]I mean, basically we, you know,
[19:13]we're sitting together in DC and cereal box
[19:16]and our producer jumped ship in the middle
[19:18]and got a job, can't move to the UK for family work,
[19:21]whatever, and she ends up taking job with Audible originals.
[19:25]So we had this connection to her, which was great.
[19:28]And then as far as the learning curve
[19:29]of how to write in that style, Amazon provided us
[19:33]with scripts.
[19:34]Yeah.
[19:35]So that was really helpful.
[19:36]And then I was really intimidated
[19:37]by the screenwriting software
[19:39]because I'm not good at computers,
[19:40]but you know, turn that out.
[19:42]That if you just focus for five minutes,
[19:44]you can learn how to do it.
[19:46]And I actually think that as a writer's dialogue
[19:48]is my strength.
[19:49]So in some ways, I'm better off in this format.
[19:52]Interesting.
[19:52]But how about you, Kim, do you have any advice
[19:54]for anybody trying to master this type of writing?
[19:57]Well, with any type of writing, I think the most...
[20:00]important thing to do is read. Read something that's similar to what you want to write.
[20:03]I think that's how you learn the technique. Yeah, that helps. All right. Awesome. Okay. Well,
[20:09]thanks for sharing your story with readers and the behind the scenes of cereal box and first
[20:16]read and everything else. So it's really exciting. Now people can go and listen and read and feel
[20:22]like they're really cool and with it and everything else. One of the writers is a little bit
[20:28]older who's on our team and I guess her I think was her grandchild was like super impressed
[20:33]that she had written for cereal box because it's like very hip apparently. Totally. Yeah,
[20:38]we're excited. Thank you. Awesome. Well, thanks so much. Thanks for coming on most of the time to read
[20:41]books. Thank you. Thanks for having me. Okay. Thanks. Bye-bye. Thanks for listening to mom.
[20:47]So don't have time to read books. The award-winning podcast. Today's episode of mom's don't have time to
[20:51]read books was sponsored by pediatrician in your pocket by Dr. Jennifer Tractenberg,
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[21:11]read books. Thanks so much to Steve and Ryan at texture sound for the sound editing and thank you
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[21:21]listening. You can always email me at zivy at zivyowens.com.