Special Episode: Delia Owens (re-release), WHERE THE CRAWDADS SING
[0:08]Hi, I'm Zibi Owens and you're listening
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[0:12]Moms don't have time to read books.
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[1:01]Hi everybody, happy new year.
[1:03]I can't believe it's almost 2020, so exciting.
[1:06]In honor of the new year, I am re-releasing my episode
[1:10]with Julia Owens, who's the author of Where the Crowd Add Sing.
[1:13]Julia Owens' book was the number one bestseller
[1:17]out of all categories of books in 2019.
[1:20]Fiction, nonfiction, everything.
[1:22]So I thought it would be nice on this eve of the new year
[1:24]to re-release the episode I did with her.
[1:26]This was actually my husband Kyle's idea,
[1:28]so I have to give him all the credit.
[1:29]But anyway, enjoy this episode, happy new year,
[1:32]and I can't wait to see what 2020 brings for all of us.
[1:35]Thanks so much for listening and for making my podcast
[1:39]a much better podcast because you all are involved.
[1:42]Thank you, bye.
[1:43]I'm really excited to be talking to Delia Owens.
[1:45]Delia Owens' novel, Where the Crowd Add Sing,
[1:49]was Reese's book club pick in September
[1:51]and is now a best-selling novel.
[1:53]She is the co-author of three internationally
[1:57]best-selling nonfiction books as well
[1:59]about her life as a wildlife scientist.
[2:01]A winner of the John Burrow's award for nature writing,
[2:03]Delia has been published in Nature,
[2:05]the African Journal of Ecology, and others.
[2:07]She received a Bachelor of Science degree
[2:09]from the University of Georgia and got her PhD
[2:12]in animal behavior from UC Davis.
[2:14]She wrote, Cry of the Calahari about her years living
[2:18]in the African wild studying lions and hyenas
[2:21]along with Mark Owens.
[2:22]She also co-wrote the Eye of the Elephant
[2:25]and Secrets of the Savannah about her years studying elephants.
[2:29]After 23 years of living in Africa,
[2:31]followed by her time in the Rockies,
[2:33]she currently lives in Idaho with her husband
[2:35]and many elk deer and moose.
[2:37]Hi, Delia, how are you?
[2:39]I'm fine, how are you?
[2:40]Good, thanks so much for coming on mom's.
[2:42]Don't have time to read books.
[2:44]Oh, thank you for having me.
[2:45]I appreciate it.
[2:46]I can't believe your book has been on the New York Times
[2:48]bestseller list for like 11 weeks now.
[2:50]Is that right?
[2:51]That's crazy.
[2:52]Well, please, it's 12 weeks.
[2:54]Oh my gosh.
[2:55]Congratulations.
[2:56]Thank you, it's very exciting.
[2:59]Oh, sorry.
[3:00]I have to ask you something.
[3:02]Okay, I'm new to Instagram,
[3:04]but is this the same people I talked to have been communicating
[3:08]on Instagram?
[3:09]Yes, or not.
[3:10]Yes, yes, it's me.
[3:12]Yes, I've been seeing your mom's
[3:15]don't have time to read books.
[3:16]Yes, thank you for all of that.
[3:18]Of course, yeah, no, I've been reading your book.
[3:20]And I like to snap pictures while I read.
[3:22]And yeah, that's me on Instagram.
[3:24]It's Iboen's and at mom's don't have to have to read books.
[3:27]So thanks for writing back.
[3:28]It always gives me such a thrill.
[3:30]Oh, thank you.
[3:31]And thank you for having me on the podcast.
[3:33]This is fun.
[3:34]Sure.
[3:35]So you are this amazingly accomplished animal and wildlife
[3:39]researcher.
[3:39]You're like a modern day Jane Goodall.
[3:42]You spent 23 years living in Africa.
[3:45]Is that right?
[3:45]Observing and writing, but all sorts of animals?
[3:47]That's true.
[3:48]Yes, that's great for yourself.
[3:50]And now you've just tried your hand at fiction
[3:53]and look what happened.
[3:54]This is amazingly incredible, beautiful novel.
[3:57]So how did you do it?
[3:59]Like how did you decide to write a novel?
[4:01]And literally how did you do it?
[4:03]Did you take a class?
[4:04]Did you read about it or did you just try?
[4:07]I read books.
[4:07]I read novels.
[4:08]I didn't find the transition hard at all.
[4:11]I are not the non-fiction books that I co-authored.
[4:14]They were written in story fashion in a way.
[4:17]They had a beginning, middle, and end.
[4:19]And but writing, I describe it this way.
[4:22]I like to write horses a lot.
[4:24]And I live in Northern Idaho.
[4:26]And I can take my horse and just write anywhere.
[4:29]And writing in non-fiction, the other books,
[4:33]are sort of like writing a horse inside of a corral.
[4:36]You know, there's a big fence.
[4:37]There's a timeline.
[4:38]You have to, the timeline has to be accurate.
[4:40]The characters have to be real.
[4:42]You might want to change this or that,
[4:44]but you can't because it's non-fiction.
[4:46]When you write fiction, it's like taking your horse
[4:49]and just clicking him and going as fast as you want
[4:52]across the meadow, up the mountains.
[4:55]There was a freedom to writing fiction.
[4:58]My imagination just went a little bit crazy.
[5:02]And I found it a lot of fun.
[5:04]I found it inspirational.
[5:06]And how did you come up with this story?
[5:10]That was also from my experiences in Africa.
[5:13]I lived a very isolated life.
[5:16]And so I was very curious about how isolation affects the person.
[5:20]I wanted to write a novel about that.
[5:22]But also as I was observing the lions,
[5:25]I go out every afternoon late in afternoon
[5:27]and fall the lions through the night.
[5:28]And you know, I began to realize that the animals I studied,
[5:32]the pride of lions, the herd of elephants,
[5:36]the pack of hunters, those tightly bonded groups
[5:40]are not made up of both sexes.
[5:42]They were made up only of females.
[5:44]The males come and go for breeding and mating purposes.
[5:48]But the females are the one that formed these tightly bonded
[5:52]groups that last all of their lives.
[5:55]And I had had close girlfriends when I was at home.
[5:58]And suddenly, I didn't have a group.
[6:02]And I realized the importance of having a group.
[6:07]And I wanted to write a story that would tell and show
[6:13]and make people feel what it's like when you don't have a group
[6:18]and how it affects your behavior.
[6:19]Hey, you wrote this great line.
[6:21]you had Mabel Telkaya in the book.
[6:24]You need some girlfriends on because they're forever
[6:26]without a vow, a clutch of women's, the most tender,
[6:29]most tough fleece on earth.
[6:32]That's true.
[6:33]It's true, girlfriends are so essential.
[6:35]They are.
[6:36]And we have a very strong genetic propensity.
[6:40]It's not just that we like to be with girls.
[6:42]It's all of our ancestors.
[6:44]All primates live in this type of society
[6:48]with a group of females, but a group of baboons.
[6:51]And so we have the genetic propensity for that.
[6:54]It's not just something we thought up on our own.
[6:57]It's very strongly written in our genes.
[7:01]And we feel it deeply when we're isolated from that type
[7:04]of group.
[7:05]And what amazed me was when I came back from Africa
[7:08]after living in remote settings.
[7:10]I'd come back and visit my friends in the cities
[7:12]and find out that some of them in today's world felt just
[7:17]as isolated as I did.
[7:19]They might live in a city with a million people,
[7:21]but they didn't have that strong group anymore,
[7:25]the kind that I have when I was growing up.
[7:27]So I think a lot of people experience loneliness
[7:31]and abandonment and rejection.
[7:34]And so I felt that that was a story
[7:37]that a lot of people might be interested in reading
[7:39]is how to deal with this.
[7:40]Absolutely.
[7:41]I guess you were right, huh?
[7:43]I'm feeling now like I should be making more time
[7:46]for girls dinners than I have been.
[7:48]I feel like as a mom, one of the first things I cut out
[7:51]is like, well, I don't have time to see my girlfriends.
[7:54]I'll do that another time.
[7:55]I have to be with my kids, or this or that,
[7:57]or working or something.
[7:58]But I feel like you've just given me an excuse
[8:01]to do what I want with my friends.
[8:03]That's awesome.
[8:05]Well, it's not just fun.
[8:06]It's very important.
[8:07]It's very important for the companionship.
[8:10]Our ancestors survived because they had a group.
[8:14]Single mom in the wilderness of Africa,
[8:18]it doesn't last as long as a group.
[8:21]And so the best of all cases
[8:24]to be with their girlfriends and the children all together.
[8:27]I mean, that's what's normal.
[8:28]Right.
[8:28]That makes sense.
[8:30]So you had this, you had to be having the kids.
[8:34]So you had this revelation, connecting women's friendships
[8:39]in the wild.
[8:40]And you wanted to talk about that in a novel.
[8:43]And yet you came up with this amazing storyline
[8:45]with different characters and drama and courthouse scenes.
[8:49]And how did you get from step one to step two?
[8:53]Like how did you make that happen?
[8:55]I was determined to write something that would be very readable
[8:59]and exciting.
[9:00]I'm terrified of boring the reader.
[9:02]I don't want the reader to be bored.
[9:04]So I knew there had to be a lot of things happening.
[9:07]And as she came up with the ending,
[9:09]I don't remember where I was or how,
[9:12]but I came up with that ending.
[9:14]And I thought, wow, I have to write a book
[9:16]that fits the ending.
[9:18]And she said, I didn't start there literally
[9:21]and write backwards, but I knew how I wanted it to end.
[9:25]And then I started at the beginning and again,
[9:28]rating a story with the different characters together
[9:31]that could lead to that ending.
[9:33]And I wanted to have a mystery that would have clues.
[9:38]The clues are hidden in all sorts of strange places
[9:41]within the story.
[9:43]And I wanted to bring that part into it.
[9:46]A mystery that someone could solve.
[9:48]The clues are there.
[9:50]If you go back and read it, I've had readers go back
[9:52]and read the second time and they say,
[9:54]I can't believe how you just told us everything.
[9:57]The clues are there, but they're hidden in there.
[10:00]don't see them sometimes until the end.
[10:02]Yeah, I was tempted to reread it.
[10:04]I was literally like sitting there next to my husband
[10:06]and I kept grabbing him and I'm like,
[10:07]oh my gosh, this is what's happening.
[10:08]Oh my gosh, you'll never believe the outcome.
[10:10]I couldn't believe it.
[10:12]If you go back and read it again,
[10:15]you will find that the clues are there.
[10:17]And the way you write is so vivid and expressive.
[10:21]It's truly unique, the way the analogy's even that you use.
[10:25]This one time you wrote,
[10:27]when you were talking about Kaya venturing
[10:28]into town to go grocery shopping,
[10:29]you say mostly the village seemed tired
[10:32]of arguing with the elements and simply sagged.
[10:35]And that was after all the other ways
[10:36]you described the village.
[10:37]And I thought that's simple sentence was so perfect, right?
[10:40]It's just like captured everything you wanted to say
[10:42]about that town.
[10:43]The reader instantly knows what you're talking about
[10:46]and you can see it in your head.
[10:47]Have you always been able to just write so lyrically?
[10:50]Does it something that comes naturally to you
[10:52]or something you've had to practice?
[10:55]I tried to write nonfiction that way as well.
[10:58]And I think I did to a certain extent.
[11:00]It's more limited when you write nonfiction.
[11:03]But I love that type of writing.
[11:05]And you have to be careful because I don't think as a reader,
[11:09]I don't like to read too much description.
[11:11]I like putting too much sugar in your coffee or your tea.
[11:15]You don't want, there's a fine line.
[11:18]I just don't like about that has too much description.
[11:21]It's getting the right words, not a lot of words,
[11:25]but the right words.
[11:26]And so I worked on that and it took me used to write this
[11:30]because I didn't just sit down and write it and wouldn't go.
[11:32]I worked on it on and off.
[11:34]And over the years I found myself improving,
[11:37]I think, getting better at writing description.
[11:40]It's, I love that part of it.
[11:42]How long did it take to write?
[11:44]Well, I'm embarrassed to say this.
[11:46]No, don't be embarrassed.
[11:48]I worked on it for 10 years.
[11:52]But I had another job.
[11:53]I mean, I was back from Africa
[11:56]and I was, but I still have a project going on in Africa.
[11:59]I was just doing fundraising and doing conservation work
[12:02]here in the United States.
[12:03]So I had a day job and again, living in the wilderness,
[12:07]but it was a job.
[12:08]And so I would get up at full 30 every morning
[12:10]to write on this book.
[12:12]And then I would get discouraged after a year or so.
[12:17]And I'd put it away.
[12:18]Sometimes I'd put it away for a couple of years.
[12:20]So it's not like I was working on it for 10 years,
[12:23]but over a period of 10 years,
[12:25]I worked on it.
[12:26]And I actually think putting it away
[12:29]and letting it rest so to speak helped.
[12:33]Because then you go back to when I go back to a doctor,
[12:35]I think I had, I was a bit of judge
[12:37]of what was actually working and what wasn't working.
[12:40]And then you finished writing your book and sent it out
[12:43]and tell me what happened next.
[12:45]Oh, well, oh gosh.
[12:47]Really?
[12:48]Yeah, I want to know.
[12:50]Do you mind?
[12:51]Do you mind?
[12:52]I'm curious.
[12:54]I published three co-author, three nonfiction books.
[12:58]So I thought, well, I'll just send it to those people.
[13:01]Well, it's taken me so long to get this
[13:04]and written that honestly, most of those people
[13:07]were retired and moved to one.
[13:10]And so I felt myself in that cold world
[13:14]of not having an agent or a publisher.
[13:18]And then I sent, so I sent it out to some of the agents
[13:22]that I'd had, I sent it out to the agent
[13:24]that I'd had from a very first book.
[13:27]Wonderful man named Peter Matson.
[13:30]And he said, I love this story.
[13:33]He said, I'm not going to be the one to represent this
[13:37]to publishers because I'm almost retired
[13:39]but I'd love to help you edit it.
[13:41]And he took many, many months to help edit it for me.
[13:46]And he said, okay, now it's ready to send it out.
[13:48]And I just thought that was beautiful for him to come back
[13:51]and help me knowing he was not going to be involved
[13:54]with the publication of it.
[13:56]And so from there, like everybody else,
[13:58]I got the writer's market off the shelf
[14:01]and started sending it cold calls to other agents.
[14:05]And within a few days, I got a great agent,
[14:08]Russell Galen, and he came back and he said,
[14:10]okay, this is it, we're going.
[14:12]And he sent it out.
[14:13]I got five publishers who wanted to publish it.
[14:16]And so from then it was just a wonderful,
[14:20]it happened pretty fast.
[14:22]But it had been very slow up for that point.
[14:25]And then next thing you know, it's come out
[14:28]and Reese Witherspoon picked it as her, you know,
[14:30]book club pick.
[14:32]How did you respond to that?
[14:33]Did you know who Reese Witherspoon was like,
[14:35]do you watch TV?
[14:36]I knew that she was as an actress.
[14:38]I do not watch TV.
[14:39]I haven't seen that TV program that apparently doing great.
[14:43]It's a great show.
[14:44]I haven't, but I knew her as an actress
[14:47]and I didn't even really know she had a book club.
[14:49]But then I, once my book came out,
[14:51]I started paying attention to things like that.
[14:53]So I did know that she had it.
[14:55]And my editor called me one day,
[14:57]and I have to say that my editor,
[14:59]my partner has just been the greatest publishing
[15:02]how to work with.
[15:03]I just have such a great relationship with them.
[15:05]And my editor called to say that Reese had chosen my book
[15:08]for the September book of the month.
[15:11]Did you get out the champagne?
[15:13]Oh, yes, I did.
[15:14]And seriously, the next week, I was in the best hour list.
[15:19]Wow.
[15:20]It's amazing.
[15:21]Yeah, so it meant so much to me, how it was so true.
[15:23]I just feel so grateful.
[15:26]I'm obviously, I'm excited and happy
[15:28]about how well the book is being received,
[15:30]but I also just feel so grateful
[15:33]for so many people have helped to make this happen.
[15:36]You don't do it by yourself.
[15:38]And I feel like being an author today,
[15:40]you have to do a fair amount of sort of self-promotion, right?
[15:43]Like you have to be willing to hit the road
[15:46]and go out and do the tours and post
[15:48]on be on social media and all that.
[15:50]Are you comfortable with all of that?
[15:52]Oh my gosh, I thought that I just refused
[15:54]at first to go on social media.
[15:56]I'd never been on social media.
[15:57]I had no idea what, how to do it.
[16:00]And they kept encouraging me,
[16:02]hopefully they forced me.
[16:06]And so I tried it and I can understand why people like it
[16:10]because you have this instant connection
[16:13]with people who read the book.
[16:15]And I don't have time to do a lot.
[16:17]I still don't understand.
[16:18]Most of all, I know that probably half the things
[16:20]I put on their end up somewhere else.
[16:21]I don't know.
[16:22]But it's been very fun to connect
[16:24]with people who are reading the book
[16:26]and it's been, I'm that part of enjoyed.
[16:28]I have to say, and I know we briefly about this at the start,
[16:32]but when I like to have the ability to say
[16:36]that you're reading someone's book
[16:36]and have that actual author write you and be like,
[16:39]hey, you're so glad you're reading my book.
[16:41]For me as a reader, that is just the coolest thing.
[16:44]Every time that happens with any author,
[16:46]just I get such a thrill.
[16:48]I just, I'm sure other readers feel the same way
[16:51]and it's nice to hear how it is
[16:52]from the author side as well.
[16:53]I get the same feeling as a thrill.
[16:55]And I love sometimes when you'll see a discussion going on
[16:58]between two readers, you know, well,
[17:00]about what they thought was ending,
[17:01]and you know, and you come in and say,
[17:03]and you could come in and put your tears in the head.
[17:06]That's amazing.
[17:07]And no one can argue with you.
[17:09]Yeah.
[17:10]You also, you incorporated a lot of poetry.
[17:13]Are you a big fan of poetry?
[17:15]I, some of the poems, let me just read one or two.
[17:17]If you wrote this Galway Canal poem from Ma's book,
[17:20]that Kaya finds and says, I have to say,
[17:23]I'm relieved it's over.
[17:24]At the end, I could only fill pity
[17:26]for that urge toward more life.
[17:27]Goodbye.
[17:28]And then you have the Amanda Hamilton, many, many poems,
[17:31]but the one that she first reads,
[17:33]trapped inside love is a caged beast,
[17:35]eating its own flesh, love must be free to wander,
[17:38]to land upon its chosen shore and breathe.
[17:40]So tell me about your relationship to poetry.
[17:42]Are you a big fan?
[17:44]Do you like to write poetry yourself?
[17:45]I do.
[17:46]I've written poetry all my life.
[17:48]I'm not saying I'm good at it at all,
[17:50]but I find it worse just come to my mind a lot.
[17:54]And I feel a lot when I write poetry.
[17:57]And I feel that the words themselves can be so inspiring
[18:03]to readers.
[18:05]Most people who love good prose and literature,
[18:10]even if they don't have time or the inclination
[18:12]to read poetry, I think when they do read a verse,
[18:17]they feel a lot.
[18:18]That was the number one thing I wanted about this book
[18:21]is I wanted people to feel.
[18:24]And I think poetry makes you feel.
[18:26]And you can say, you can get your thoughts into a few words.
[18:31]And you can do it in a way that it's like putting a drug
[18:36]straight into your bloodstream.
[18:38]You have to read a whole novel sometimes
[18:40]to feel certain things and get the point.
[18:44]But a poem can say so much in a few words.
[18:47]And I think that's the reason it's so powerful.
[18:49]This is great.
[18:50]You speak the way you write.
[18:52]You speak just as beautifully with so many.
[18:54]No, you have so many analogies and ways for me
[18:57]to conjure up visually what you're saying.
[18:59]It's perfect.
[19:00]It's great.
[19:01]I don't feel that way, but.
[19:04]No, it's true.
[19:05]You do the same your website too.
[19:07]I was like, I felt like I didn't want to stop reading your website.
[19:10]Whereas usually it's just very functional copy years
[19:14]was you even gave away the first two chapters or parts
[19:17]of them on your website, which I thought was really
[19:19]unusual, but really great.
[19:20]Well, thank you.
[19:21]Yeah, I was new at all that morning.
[19:26]So you've had this amazing success.
[19:28]I'm sure you're just writing the way for a while.
[19:30]Do you have ambitions to write another book?
[19:32]Do you feel like you finally check this off your list?
[19:34]How do you feel about about writing books at this point?
[19:37]Oh, I definitely.
[19:38]I've started another one.
[19:39]I have an idea for another one.
[19:40]I want to continue where the crawdad's seeing
[19:44]is that it's a socio-biological drama.
[19:49]It's a drama, a story, a thriller, a murder mystery,
[19:53]a love story, but also it asks some very serious questions
[19:59]about that.
[20:00]why humans behave the way we do.
[20:03]That is the central theme.
[20:05]And I want to continue with that theme.
[20:07]I want to write another book that's also a drama.
[20:12]I love story and I don't know if there'll be some sort of mystery,
[20:16]some sort of compelling story, but with some serious questions.
[20:20]And I have to say that I'm a little bit disappointing
[20:24]that right now there's so much going on with this book,
[20:27]which I'm thrilled about, but it's a little bit hard to sit down
[20:30]and get into the zone of writing, which I'm lucky I can find that zone
[20:36]and get into that zone, but it's a little bit difficult right now.
[20:39]But I'm trying not to be too hard on myself.
[20:42]You know, I should give myself some time to enjoy this book,
[20:45]but I am working on the second one.
[20:47]Oh, that's exciting.
[20:48]I think you definitely owe yourself a little time to kick back and soak it up.
[20:54]Thank you.
[20:54]Thank you very much.
[20:56]I appreciate that.
[20:58]So for aspiring writers out there, and I know we talked a little about your transition
[21:02]of fiction, but what advice would you give?
[21:04]What if there's someone out there who also has just an ending in mind the way you did?
[21:08]What would you say to those people?
[21:09]What advice about the whole road to publication and writing and everything?
[21:13]The most important thing is that you have to believe
[21:17]everyone will tell you how difficult it is, and it is difficult.
[21:20]The writing is difficult, the process is difficult,
[21:23]then getting someone to read it.
[21:25]And you know, never mind finding an agent is getting an agent to read it,
[21:29]because there are so many manuscripts that follow their desk every day.
[21:33]So you have to believe in it, and you have to really work at it.
[21:37]You know, get up for 30 every morning and work on it, and it just takes a huge amount of work.
[21:43]But you can't let that stress interfere with your creative.
[21:49]It's being creative that visually connects with another person.
[21:56]You know, words don't necessarily connect.
[21:58]It's the creative words that speak to someone, and it's real important to try to get to that
[22:04]place within your own heart that you feel like that you have this that you want to say,
[22:11]and you want somebody to listen.
[22:13]And when you start feeling that, when I wrote, it was almost like I
[22:18]had the reader sitting in the chair next to me.
[22:21]And I was always saying, okay, I do not want to bore the reader.
[22:25]I don't want to confuse the reader.
[22:27]I'm very, very conscious of the reader when I write.
[22:31]And I think that's sort of a cue to people to keep in mind.
[22:36]Don't forget the reader.
[22:37]Absolutely.
[22:38]That's my advice.
[22:38]That's good advice.
[22:40]So are you involved?
[22:42]I'm sure this is going to be a movie.
[22:44]Is there what can you say about that?
[22:47]Nothing.
[22:47]Okay.
[22:50]All right.
[22:51]I'm sorry.
[22:52]I just thought you never know.
[22:55]You never know.
[22:59]Well, it was so nice chatting with you.
[23:01]I loved your book.
[23:03]And it was so just transported into the whole marshland and all the characters.
[23:09]And I feel like it gave me this whole other experience as a, you know, as I'm living here in
[23:15]the middle of Manhattan in New York City.
[23:16]And just to be able to escape just by opening a book into the world that you painted for me was
[23:22]was a real treat.
[23:23]So thank you for that.
[23:24]Well, thank you, Zibi.
[23:26]It's been so nice to meet you on Instagram.
[23:29]I never thought I'd say that to anybody, but it's been so fun.
[23:32]And it's so nice to talk to you now.
[23:35]I really appreciate your support.
[23:37]And you too.
[23:38]Yes, I really appreciate your time.
[23:41]Thanks so much.
[23:42]Okay.
[23:42]Okay.
[23:43]Take care.
[23:43]Bye bye.
[23:44]Thanks for listening to moms.
[23:45]Don't have time to read books, the award-winning podcast.
[23:48]Today's episode of moms don't have time to read books was sponsored by pediatrician in your pocket
[23:54]by Dr. Jennifer Tractenberg, Dr. Dash Jen.com and your code PIP20P20 for 20% off of these
[24:03]can't miss modules that will make your parenting life so much easier.
[24:07]You can follow me on Instagram at moms don't have time to read books.
[24:11]Thanks so much to Steve and Ryan at Texture Sound for the Sound Editing.
[24:15]And thank you to Morning Moon Productions for providing this fantastic intro and out trim music.
[24:19]Thanks for listening.
[24:20]You can always email me at zibi at zibiowans.com.