Rochelle Weinstein, THIS IS NOT HOW IT ENDS
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[1:00]Zibi Owens.com. Michelle Weinstein is the USA Today best-selling author of What We Leave Behind,
[1:05]The Morning After, Where We Fall Somebody's Daughter, and her latest novel, This Is Not How It Ends.
[1:10]A former entertainment industry executive, Michelle eventually became a full-time writer
[1:14]and a mom of twins. She currently lives with her husband in Miami, where she was born and raised.
[1:19]So welcome, Michelle. Thanks for coming on Moms and have time to read books.
[1:22]Hi, Zibi. Thank you so much for having me and thrilled to be here.
[1:26]No, that's my pleasure. So can you please tell us, NERS, what This Is Not How It Ends?
[1:31]Is About and What Inspired You To Write It? This is not how it ends is a love story based in
[1:35]the Florida Keys. That's the short answer. The long answer is it is a story of love, forgiveness,
[1:42]family, friendship, and the sacrifices we make for all of them. Is that all?
[1:49]That's all. And what inspired me, to be honest, this is my fifth book,
[1:54]and I really wanted to revert back to my first novel was What We Leave Behind and it was the
[1:59]quintessential love story. What was my little elevator pitch for that? For any woman who was
[2:04]loved and lost and wondered what could have been, which I feel is all of us. So that book was actually
[2:09]my first self-published book that was my book that became a USA Today Bestseller.
[2:14]And that book has just stayed in so many of my readers' hearts and they've contacted me and
[2:19]they're like, are you going to write a follow-up? And I really didn't feel that I could
[2:23]do the characters justice by doing a series, but I knew that I needed to tap into those emotions
[2:30]again. So that was the inspiration wanting to write another beautiful romance story.
[2:35]Then we go back a minute. You see yourself published your first book.
[2:38]I did. What's funny is I speak a lot at schools and I mentor a lot of authors and I love what
[2:45]I do as a writer, but one of my most favorite things about this profession is being able to give
[2:51]back to the book community. And it's inspiring and motivating. So when I tell this story,
[2:56]I feel like sometimes it's better than my books that my first book, it sat under the bed,
[3:02]100,000 words and I tried to get it published. And can you hear that?
[3:06]Yeah, we're going to invite Rochelle's dogs into this interview. So welcome, dogs.
[3:10]We'll see what they have to say. They're very far away. But anyway, I'm going to make a very long
[3:15]story short. So I ended up getting rejected by agents across the board. And I decided I was going
[3:22]to self publish. And we all, and I dealt with the stigma and the lack of credibility that was
[3:26]associated with self publishing. But I'd made a decision in what my goals were for my writing and
[3:31]what I wanted to do with my writing. And I put the book out there. And it hit the USA today,
[3:35]bestseller or less, not right away. But it just built traction. And then my second book,
[3:40]I self published as well. And then I partly that into a book deal. So, you know, some authors,
[3:47]it's really easy. And it's a straight shoot. And I'm here to tell you that it's not that way
[3:51]for a lot of authors. And it's a lot of work. And it's a lot of, you know, thick skin and being
[3:57]resilient. And that's the message that I give to all aspiring authors. And I think I just
[4:02]probably be fast over to your last, to your last question. That's okay. We can just get off the
[4:06]phone now. I mean, it's fine. Tell me, okay, you said you were trying to get past the stigma
[4:12]and everything of self publishing. Do you really feel like there's such a stigma anymore? I mean,
[4:16]I feel like maybe in the olden days, like when it first was invented, people looked down on it
[4:21]maybe a little. But I'm not so sure there's even that anymore. I don't know. What do you think?
[4:26]I don't think there is anymore. This was probably 2012. So I think that we've seen an evolved
[4:33]substantially since then. I think it is a very viable option for a lot of authors. There's articles.
[4:39]You can Google about many books that have been self published. I mean, it man's a hawking. There's
[4:44]authors that have hit bestseller lists. I don't think that there is as much of a stigma. But I do
[4:49]believe that a lot of authors have that dream inside of them that I'm going to get a traditional
[4:54]deal. And then I'm going to hit the New York Times bestseller list. And again, it's not a straight
[4:59]shoot for every author. I think one of the nice things about self publishing is it just goes to show
[5:04]you how in today's digital era, there's so many ways in which to get your books into print.
[5:10]And you said when you decided to self publish that you were keeping in mind your own goals for
[5:15]your writing. What were those? To be honest, at that point, I wanted a tangible piece of evidence to
[5:19]leave to my family and my friends. I really wasn't thinking of anything grander. I was just thinking
[5:25]I put in all this hard work. And I wrote this what I thought was an amazing book. And I just
[5:29]wanted there to be evidence out in the world that I'd done this. Well, that was really,
[5:34]I think, and I tell authors all the time that they have to really manage their expectations for
[5:39]their work. That's the key also to being successful is managing those expectations.
[5:44]Now that you have gotten a book deal, would you ever go back to self publishing? Or now
[5:49]your family entrenched if you cross the line? How do you feel? Because some people feel like
[5:54]self publishing can actually be more lucrative in a way. Yes. And I see a lot of authors that
[5:59]they go both ways. They have a book deal with a publishing house. And then sometimes the
[6:06]publishing house, it's a couple years till your next book. And they will publish something,
[6:09]they will self publishing something in between so that there's that fraction so that there's
[6:14]you know, the visibility. Is it something I would do? I've actually had moments where I didn't know
[6:20]if my next book was going to be bought. And absolutely, it's been a consideration for me. It was
[6:24]very good to me. So I have a great experience. Also, it's a little different when you're an established
[6:29]author and you have a following to go back to self publishing. I mean, you have a foundation in place.
[6:35]So I think it helps. So let's talk more about this is not how it ends your most recent novel.
[6:41]Which was fantastic. One of the things I know you said it was about falling in love in the
[6:46]Florida Keys, but it's really based on a woman who's getting married and her relationship where
[6:54]she happens to meet a father and son during a food allergy attack and what ensues afterwards.
[7:00]Let's say that. So I as a mother of two children who have food allergies, two who don't,
[7:07]I was super interested in you're basing one of the main characters and one of the main events
[7:12]in the book around a food allergy attack to nuts. Do you have a child with field allergies? How did
[7:18]you decide to put this as part of the essential part of the story? Okay. So here's the the
[7:25]authenticity piece. I actually had a late in life reaction to almonds, which is exactly what one of
[7:35]the characters in the book. You know, writers right with they know, they embellished. I was about
[7:39]three years ago and I all of a sudden had a very bad reaction to almonds. I wasn't anti-phylactic,
[7:44]but I had a very, very uncomfortable reaction. So I did go to a head allergies testing. They told me
[7:50]I was highly allergic to almonds and from that day forward I had to walk around with an epipen,
[7:55]which for somebody who was what 46, 47 at the time, it was really difficult. I was very frustrated.
[8:01]I was very annoyed. I was scared. So a friend of mine had done nate therapy, which is, you know,
[8:08]an alternative more natural approach to allergy treatment because some of the doctors were like,
[8:13]oh, I can give you shots. I could do this and I just didn't really want to change my lifestyle
[8:18]so much and I thought maybe I could get this like quick fix. So I went in to nate therapy. My
[8:22]girlfriend had some terrible allergies and her son had some terrible allergies and they had a
[8:29]lot of success with it. So I was intrigued by it. I mean, I come from a family of medical doctors,
[8:34]so they were all like, they were adamantly opposed to it, but I'm all about like a holistic
[8:38]approach and I like to try out new techniques and different ways of, you know, modern medicine
[8:44]combining a little bit of east and west. So I went and I actually did a nate therapy myself.
[8:49]It didn't work. It worked for like the character in the book. A lot of my, a lot of my allergies,
[8:55]but not all of them. Wow. And so I feel like you really tapped into the fear the parents have
[9:00]of when their children have allergies. Did you talk? I mean, do you must have friends or did you do
[9:05]any research or did you just imagine what it would feel like as a mom yourself? I do have friends
[9:10]that their children have serious life threatening allergies, but I have to tell you the reactions
[9:16]that I was having. I was imagine not being with my child in those moments and I can't even imagine
[9:22]what a parent goes through, you know, sending your child to school, sending your child to sleep
[9:27]awake camp is that even an option? And his mom was most of us are very controlling to begin with,
[9:34]but then you add this component of a factor where you don't have any control what's going
[9:39]into your child's mouth. It's terrified life out of me. Like I'm like, I'm a little jittery even
[9:44]talking about. I really admire any mother who has a child with life threatening allergies
[9:51]because it is extremely scary. Yeah. I've been in the emergency room many times. My kids,
[9:59]especially my dad.
[10:00]And the most recent time was a really bad reaction.
[10:02]And I was just sitting there being like,
[10:03]why do we even have nuts on earth?
[10:05]Like really do we need these?
[10:06]Like I wish I could just go around and throw them all out
[10:09]and like not have to worry
[10:11]because you just don't know.
[10:12]I mean, it's like, it's funny because it's not funny
[10:15]but I was on a plane recently with my husband
[10:17]and it's amazing to me that this airline
[10:19]still even gives out peanuts.
[10:21]And I said to my husband, you can't eat those.
[10:23]He's like, what do you mean I can't eat those?
[10:24]And he was like, had them and they were like on his little table.
[10:27]I was like, what if a child comes in here
[10:29]is highly allergic and touches the,
[10:32]I mean I became, I became literally like the mother
[10:35]of a child with a major peanut allergy.
[10:38]I'm like, you got and I took the peanuts from him
[10:39]and I put him right back and I wouldn't let him eat them
[10:41]because you're in this small space.
[10:42]I agree.
[10:43]I can't believe airlines allowed either.
[10:45]I mean often when I go on with my kids,
[10:46]they'll make some announcement.
[10:47]Like there's a child with food allergies
[10:49]like please put away your nuts or something like that.
[10:52]I feel like that's all they're doing is catches catch can.
[10:55]I will tell you that, and I'm sure you've heard this
[10:58]and this is a subject for another time
[10:59]but there is that whole program.
[11:01]It's Stanford or.
[11:01]Yes, I'm aware of all the conversation for another time.
[11:07]Okay, back to your book.
[11:09]So Charlie who's the main character tells Philip
[11:11]when she first meets him, which is on an airplane
[11:14]that she is also a world traveler like he is for work
[11:16]but she is referring to books in the sense and she says,
[11:19]the stories that kept me alive
[11:21]and took me all over the world.
[11:22]Their destinations only rivaled by the depth
[11:25]what I'd come to understand about living about life
[11:27]and she tells him, you don't always have to physically
[11:30]go somewhere to experience something magical.
[11:32]I totally agree about that feeling that reading
[11:35]can take you so many places and I was just wondering
[11:38]for you in particular like where have books taken you?
[11:40]How has reading saved you or helped you through life?
[11:45]Reading has had a huge impact on me.
[11:46]I've been an avid reader since I was probably
[11:50]since the four or five years old
[11:52]and I used to steal my mother's books.
[11:54]And it sits in the closet with the flashlight
[11:57]when I was supposed to be in bed.
[11:58]My parents were divorced, my mother worked
[12:01]and my father really wasn't around
[12:02]and I have to tell you.
[12:04]And in hindsight, I believe I channeled all of my emotions
[12:08]and all my feelings into those books
[12:10]that the things that I sort of couldn't allow myself to feel
[12:15]I felt through reading.
[12:16]Books took me away from a lot.
[12:18]So a lot of pain books helped me feel less alone.
[12:22]Books taught me about love,
[12:23]a lot about relationships.
[12:25]I often joke that Sydney Sheldon and Danielle Steele
[12:29]and Judy Bloom raised me.
[12:32]I mean, my mother was a wonderful mother,
[12:33]but again, she was working and my father wasn't
[12:36]around all the time.
[12:38]So books were my escape books were my savior.
[12:41]And I mean, I could sit here and tell you
[12:43]that yes, they take you to different locations
[12:45]and they take you to beautiful countries and cities
[12:48]and you see the magic of the world.
[12:50]But for me, it was an emotional outlet for me.
[12:53]And I think that's also why I tend to write emotionally
[12:56]driven books because now it's my way
[12:59]of channeling those emotions, getting them on the page.
[13:02]Do you feel like making people feel less alone
[13:04]as part of your goal as a writer too?
[13:07]Probably one, I think my fiction is relatable
[13:10]because of the real emotions.
[13:12]It's tapping in, listen, it's not for everybody.
[13:14]But I feel like tapping into those real emotions
[13:17]is what makes people connect with your work and say,
[13:21]oh wow, that sounds really familiar.
[13:23]I feel that way, I get that.
[13:25]There was one line in your book that particularly spoke to me.
[13:27]It was particularly great.
[13:28]You've said Charlie says to Philip,
[13:30]you should know that being alone doesn't make a person lonely.
[13:33]It's being around the wrong people.
[13:35]Talk to me more about that.
[13:36]Well, I mean, I think that as we mature
[13:41]and I'm approaching 50, you see that more and more.
[13:44]I think we fill our lives.
[13:45]We collect things and we collect people
[13:48]because we want to feel good about ourselves.
[13:51]We want to feel less alone.
[13:52]But I think the older you get and the more in touch with yourself,
[13:56]you realize that it's better to be alone
[13:58]than sort of reforming and changing who you are
[14:01]to please somebody else.
[14:02]Somebody that's not particularly making you happy.
[14:06]So I've seen that evolution in my own life
[14:09]and it is something that I like to impart on readers
[14:13]and people who read my stories
[14:15]that I'd much rather at this point in time.
[14:17]And I don't think it's an easy thing
[14:20]to understand when you're 20 and your teens.
[14:24]You know, you want to have a bunch of friends,
[14:25]you want to have a boyfriend and you want to feel good.
[14:28]And sometimes those same things
[14:30]and they make you feel worse.
[14:32]So I feel like getting older and trying to evaluate,
[14:36]you know, toxic relationships, like even friendships.
[14:40]Like what does this person need for me?
[14:41]Can I give this person that like what is, I don't know?
[14:44]I'm all about authenticity at this point in my life.
[14:46]I need real connections.
[14:48]I can honestly say that I don't feel alone
[14:50]in any of my relationships today.
[14:52]That's great.
[14:53]Do you think your characters feel alone?
[14:55]I mean, I know that Charlie started out feeling very alone.
[14:58]I think there's definitely a common theme in my books,
[15:01]the channels, some of that earlier loneliness
[15:03]that I had felt.
[15:04]And I think my characters do start out lonely.
[15:07]And then they're big arc is learning this wonderful lesson
[15:11]about themselves.
[15:12]And usually there's forgiveness involved
[15:14]and there's acceptance involved.
[15:16]And there's an emotional growth.
[15:18]And then they're not so lonely anymore.
[15:20]So Charlie has this great relationship with her dog, Sunny.
[15:24]And I just had to bring it up.
[15:26]I feel like this might be my first question
[15:27]about a character that's a dog,
[15:29]which is so appropriate since your dogs are barking
[15:31]in the background.
[15:31]But I felt like you mentioned Sunny so often
[15:35]why Charlie, how the beautiful moment
[15:37]when they she named him and the relationship with her mother
[15:40]and all the times in life when the dog
[15:43]actually had something to do, the dog going to the hospital,
[15:46]all of it.
[15:47]Tell me a little more about that decision in this book.
[15:50]I knew the dog was going to become the protagonist here.
[15:54]To be honest, I lost my mom in 2012.
[15:57]And my dog got me through it.
[15:59]Don't tell my husband that.
[16:01]But I mean, I would come home and I'd get into bed
[16:04]and she'd be downstairs.
[16:05]And I'd be crying in bed.
[16:07]And she would run up the stairs.
[16:09]And she would get on the bed.
[16:11]And she would lay on me.
[16:12]And she'd look away my tears.
[16:14]And I just feel that there's nothing,
[16:16]there's just no, that there's such an unconditional love
[16:19]between humans and dogs.
[16:21]And that's why there's so many of them out there
[16:23]and all of us love our dogs.
[16:25]But I do believe that they can mine our emotions.
[16:27]I think they feel our emotions.
[16:29]They can tell when we're having a good day,
[16:31]when we're having a bad day, they never say no.
[16:34]They're usually so cooperative.
[16:36]They're like, they're sound asleep on the bed.
[16:39]And you're like, come on, let's go for a walk.
[16:40]And they're like, this humans, we'd be like dragging
[16:43]or feet, but if you just want to be with us
[16:46]and they just want to love us and they just want to comfort us.
[16:48]And I just, I think that I wanted to portray
[16:52]and this is not how it ends.
[16:53]How my dog helped me and how this dog helped.
[16:58]I just forgot my character's name.
[17:00]Charlie, again, because I'm writing a new book right now.
[17:04]Fine, I can tell you more about what your book's about.
[17:07]If you want, if that would help, please do.
[17:10]Wait, tell me what's your new book about?
[17:13]Okay, so my new book is about,
[17:15]there's definitely like a common thread here,
[17:17]like the quintessential, perfect family
[17:21]and there's a workplace sexual harassment suit
[17:25]and how it detonates this family
[17:27]and the ripple effect and how nothing is ever what it seems.
[17:32]And I'm about 60,000 words in.
[17:34]Wow, that's a chunk.
[17:36]How many, like, how many words did this book have
[17:39]and how many, like how many,
[17:41]you should know the answer to it.
[17:42]I didn't add them up, I mean, come on.
[17:45]I could tell you it's probably like 379 pages
[17:48]without looking.
[17:49]Wait, let me see if that's right.
[17:50]Thank you, something thousand words.
[17:52]Have, say that again.
[17:53]What's it been 90,000 something maybe?
[17:55]No, I bet it was more.
[17:57]Three, 63, 363 pages, okay, sorry.
[18:01]The US words.
[18:02]Words, yeah, I know.
[18:04]Okay, well, regardless.
[18:06]So let's just say you're more than halfway through
[18:08]your next book.
[18:10]If we're halfway through my next book.
[18:12]No, I just wanted to know more about your writing process.
[18:14]Like, where do you do it right there?
[18:16]I'm like, seeing where on Skype,
[18:17]so I'm seeing you like in your bedroom.
[18:19]Are you writing it on your bed?
[18:20]Where do you write?
[18:21]You taught me downstairs on my couch
[18:23]and that's the other thing.
[18:24]My dogs literally plant themselves on each side of me.
[18:26]So I think that's a reason why also
[18:28]that I've transported them onto the page.
[18:30]They're ever so present.
[18:33]But I can work anywhere.
[18:34]I'm not a star, but I don't drink coffee.
[18:36]I've never had coffee in my life.
[18:37]Weird, fun fact about me.
[18:39]She's rolling her eyes.
[18:40]I'm not rolling, I'm shocked.
[18:42]I'm impressed.
[18:43]The shock.
[18:44]I can write anywhere.
[18:46]I can write it with noise of my kids in my house.
[18:49]Well, I'm an empty nester now.
[18:50]So my writing has sort of had to adapt to
[18:53]all the different stages and you're a writer too.
[18:56]So you'll get there.
[18:58]I used to write when they were napping.
[19:00]I used to write when they were in school now.
[19:01]It's like everybody's gone.
[19:02]So I have no excuse not to be writing.
[19:05]So I'll write, I'll do like a yoga or Pilates class
[19:07]in the morning and then I'll be writing all day.
[19:10]And sometimes we'll go to dinner and I'll have a glass of wine
[19:12]and the juices are really flowing at that point.
[19:15]So I kind of just write whenever.
[19:17]And how long does it take for each book?
[19:19]This is not how it ends took two months.
[19:21]Two months?
[19:22]Yeah, that was it.
[19:23]But usually it takes me nine months to a year to write a book.
[19:26]But that book just like poured right out of me.
[19:28]But that was how it was with what's
[19:30]what we leave behind also.
[19:31]Wow.
[19:32]So you're working on another book.
[19:34]How many do you have plans for all your next book?
[19:38]Are you one book at a time?
[19:39]Do you have other ideas for things coming up?
[19:41]Or I always keep a folder with all my ideas
[19:45]and people say, how do you come up with ideas?
[19:48]And again, you're a writer.
[19:50]There's stories all around us.
[19:52]I go out to dinner and the table next to us.
[19:55]I come up with a story.
[19:56]You read something in the newspaper.
[19:57]So I always come up with crazy ideas and I keep them.
[20:00]in my idea folder and sometimes I share them with my agent.
[20:03]She's like, yes, no, yes, no.
[20:05]And then sometimes we send them to the editor
[20:06]and she's like, yes, no, yes, no, yes, no, yes, no.
[20:08]And then I just, you just, I have to feel it.
[20:10]Like if I don't feel it inside, I can't write it.
[20:13]I know you had started off by telling me some great advice.
[20:16]But now that we're at the end of our conversation,
[20:19]although I had like a million more questions to ask you.
[20:21]But, well, okay, you know what?
[20:22]I'm so happy that you skipped the question about food.
[20:24]I was gonna tell you to skip it and you skipped it.
[20:26]Oh, okay.
[20:28]Why did you want me to skip it?
[20:29]No, no, because, you know, I have no idea.
[20:31]Like, amarine keeps like, we keep tying in this food thing
[20:35]and I just am not feeling the food connection.
[20:37]Okay, it's okay.
[20:38]You don't have to.
[20:40]I won't talk about it.
[20:41]I won't talk about it.
[20:42]I did think it was funny how Charlie is trying to cook
[20:45]and blowing up our kitchen basically,
[20:46]because I feel like I could relate to that trying
[20:48]to attempt some sort of feet that I shouldn't be trying
[20:51]in the kitchen.
[20:52]Okay, so parting advice to aspiring authors.
[20:55]Go.
[20:57]You know, as cliche as it sounds,
[20:59]the best advice I could give is the difference
[21:01]between a successful author and an unsuccessful author
[21:05]is the never giving up.
[21:07]I mean, I think back to when my book was rejected
[21:10]across the board and I could wall paper bathroom
[21:12]with my rejection letters,
[21:14]because that's how long a vote was.
[21:15]I actually got letters in the mail
[21:17]and had I just given up and not gone
[21:20]and the self publishing route I wouldn't be doing
[21:22]what I'm doing today.
[21:23]How about that?
[21:24]Well, I'm really glad you didn't give up
[21:26]because you've provided me with lots of enjoyment
[21:28]and loved this book.
[21:29]And I also think you did a really great job,
[21:31]which I didn't really touch on,
[21:33]but in terms of transporting readers to places,
[21:36]I feel like this was a little mini beach vacation for me
[21:39]and that I haven't really spent much time
[21:41]on the Florida Keys or I don't know.
[21:43]I felt like I was there.
[21:45]I was at these different rest at the restaurant
[21:47]and the beach and the hammock.
[21:49]I don't know.
[21:50]You really like brought me there, which on this gray day
[21:52]and winter up here in New York was very nice.
[21:56]I could take you to the beach for the day.
[21:59]Yes, thank you.
[22:00]All right, well, thanks for show.
[22:01]Thanks for coming on Mom's.
[22:02]Don't have time to read books.
[22:04]All right, have a great day.
[22:05]Thanks a lot.
[22:06]Thank you.
[22:07]Thanks for listening to Mom's.
[22:08]Don't have time to read books.
[22:09]The award-winning podcast.
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