Barbara Natterson-Horowitz, WILDHOOD
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[1:00]Zibi Owens.com. I'm here today with Barbara Natterson Horowitz MD, who is the co-author,
[1:06]along with Katherine Bowers of Best Selling Book Zubiquity and their latest,
[1:10]Wild Hood, the epic journey from adolescents to adulthood in humans and other animals.
[1:15]A visiting professor in the Department of Human Evolutionary Biology at Harvard University,
[1:20]Barbara is also a professor of medicine in the UCLA Division of Cardiology and President
[1:24]of the International Society for Evolution Medicine and Public Health.
[1:28]She currently splits her time between Cambridge, Massachusetts, and Los Angeles, California.
[1:33]So welcome, Barbara, AKA, Dr. Natterson Horowitz. Take your take-up title.
[1:40]Welcome to mom's and have time to read books. I'm so happy to be here. Thanks for coming.
[1:44]So can you please tell us, Nair, what Wild Hood is about?
[1:48]Wild Hood is a book that looks at growing up very broadly. It tells a story of
[1:57]500 million years of reaching puberty and developing into a mature adult.
[2:03]And why it's so challenging and how much we can learn from animals who've been doing it for a long time.
[2:10]Some well and some not so well. And you outlined four key life skills that all adolescents,
[2:16]both humans and animals, have to go through how to stay safe, how to navigate social hierarchies,
[2:21]how to communicate sexually, and how to leave the nest and care for oneself.
[2:25]So I know this is basically what your entire book is about, but what are some of the most
[2:30]blatant ways that animals and people share these things and tell me about how you discovered this?
[2:36]So I have, I guess, an unusual background for somebody to be writing about animals. I mean,
[2:41]I spent over 20 years as a physician, as a cardiologist, a professor of medicine at UCLA.
[2:46]And one day I got a call from one of the veterinarians at the Los Angeles Zoo,
[2:51]who wanted me to come and image the hearts of some of their animal patients.
[2:54]It was actually a chimpanzee who they thought it had a stroke. And that experience led to
[3:00]request a few weeks later to image a gorilla's aorta. And then a few months later,
[3:06]the heart of a lion they thought had metastatic breast cancer and so on and so forth.
[3:09]And what happened over the course of several years is that even though I was spending,
[3:15]you know, 98 percent of my time at UCLA at the human hospital taking care of human beings
[3:21]with heart attacks and high cholesterol, et cetera. I was also going to the zoo periodically
[3:26]and joining the vets on rounds where they were talking about heart failure in a kangaroo or
[3:35]metastatic melanoma in a rhino and an even behavioral problems. They were talking about dosing
[3:41]fluoxetine, which is prozac effectively for some of their animals who had compulsions in anxiety.
[3:48]And I had this aha moment. It was really an aha moment because here I had been a professor of
[3:55]medicine for 20 years taking care of, you know, very advanced cardiovascular disease. I've been
[4:01]teaching medical students and I really had never thought much about the so-called human diseases
[4:08]and nonhuman animals. In other words, I just I thought about cancer and heart diseases,
[4:13]disease of civilization. Those are human and I just hadn't really looked at it from a broader
[4:18]perspective. So I started getting interested and got more interested and eventually
[4:24]started writing about this more than anything else and now spend all of my time looking to the
[4:30]natural world across species and evolutionary time for insights into human health and development.
[4:37]So this whole kind of the genesis of wildhood is really the story for me of my life over the
[4:45]last 15 years. And while I work with a brilliant woman, Katherine Bowers, and for over 10 years,
[4:50]we've been research and writing and teaching partners. But during that period, we wrote a first book
[4:58]called zebiquity, which looks across species at cancer and heart disease and eating disorders
[5:04]and anxiety and self injury. But we had at the same time, we both have kids who were entering
[5:11]adolescence minor a little bit older. They were kind of in adolescence. And so we were hearing a lot
[5:17]about what everyone was worried about depression, anxiety, substance, social media wasn't really
[5:25]a big thing at that point. But we started wondering whether we could take this lens that we
[5:29]developed to which we were applying to health concerns and see whether we could find commonalities
[5:38]or differences between animals in this phase of life. That is puberty has started, but a mature
[5:46]adult has not yet emerged. And if we could, what could we learn? So that's, I don't even remember
[5:52]what you were talking about. The question was, we were asking about the entire book. So that's a
[5:56]basically how you answer. It's great and how you do it and how you uncovered all of this research.
[6:00]But I think what your question of realizing is that there's so many things that we learned and
[6:07]I mean, it has, I mean, the thing that I can't believe is how blindfolded I was before I started
[6:14]spending time with veterinarians and thinking in this species spanning way. I mean,
[6:19]I like to say to my students on the first day of class, check your human exceptionalism at the
[6:26]because it's a blindfold that's prevented us from seeing connections and patterns that can help us
[6:30]better understand ourselves. But so of all of the many insights and just shivery inducing
[6:39]revelatory things that came from five years of studying wild animal adolescence. It was essentially
[6:46]the thesis of the book, which is across the animal kingdom. There are four universal high stakes
[6:54]tests that shape the destiny of every adolescent. And that realization that as different
[7:03]as we are from marsupials and amphibians and fish, that fundamentally that experience of
[7:13]being big in size, but low in experience, it challenges every animal presents the same
[7:20]problems and opportunities for every animal. So that was, that's been one of the most inspirational
[7:26]and humbling insights of the whole project. To doing all the research, make you look at your own
[7:32]children in a different way. I know that's, you know, taking such something so insignificant
[7:37]probably in the context of this like groundbreaking research, but just wondering like you have,
[7:42]you know, your sample set of your own adolescence at home, didn't learning all this about the
[7:47]animal kingdom have implications for your parenting or day to day life or a greater sense of
[7:54]understanding or compassion for adolescence. I mean, you know how to start, I mean, first of all,
[8:00]I look back and I wish that particularly when my daughter was going through adolescence, because she
[8:06]was sort of in her late teens when this was all happening, that I had understood the connection
[8:11]between status and that I mean, so all vertebrates live in hierarchies and what that basically means
[8:18]is that every individual in the group has a perceived rank relative to every other individual.
[8:25]And, you know, status is kind of an ugly word like in proper society, it has a negative
[8:30]tones to it, but essentially it's a word to describe the perception of where you stand relative
[8:36]to the other fish or birds or wildebeest that you're living with. And one of the biggest insights
[8:43]was what happens in a fish's brain, for example, when she experiences status descent.
[8:50]Her serotonin levels, these serineergic networks are activated and there's a reduction in serotonin
[8:55]and the behavior you can watch of fish who's had status descent and they stop moving around as
[9:02]much. They stop initiating activity. They get very withdrawn, actually. And on the other end of it,
[9:08]what's called the winter effect, the fish that keep, you know, being compared positively, they're
[9:13]really, they're moving around a lot and they're initiating stuff. So the fish who's not that cool
[9:19]anymore is now depressed, acting depressed. Again, to be careful not to anthropomorphize. I would say
[9:25]and I'm winking at you because I don't think we need to be that worried anymore about anthropomorphizing.
[9:30]I was just, you know, distilling that went over anybody's head. I was just keeping a, you know,
[9:37]but a dumb, down example in case, you know, whatever.
[9:41]Yeah, that mood and why am I saying mood? Because serotonin, I mean, there's, I mean, mood is
[9:48]really complicated, lots of factors, but just to break it down. I mean, the most popular anti-depressant
[9:55]drugs are the serotonin. We haven't taken inhibitors. We know that serotonin is...
[10:00]entrained with human mood, and it turns out those same serotonin networks are really detecting
[10:07]and signaling a shift in status and probably because high status is so fitness enhancing
[10:14]that as it increases survival and reproduction in the animal world.
[10:19]Those serotonin sort of the burst of serotonin is probably a kind of pleasure reward
[10:26]for whatever it was the animal was doing, a kind of at a girl do it again.
[10:31]And a fallen status may be a kind of chemical reprimand.
[10:36]And if you, so the reason that this as we were doing this research and finding these connections
[10:42]and how we studied it scientifically, we can get into but the parenting point of
[10:47]it all was I started thinking about how I used to respond when she would be concerned
[10:55]about what some girl or a couple of girls who, you know, weren't such, I didn't think
[11:03]we were any great, great, big deal about what they thought of her.
[11:07]And I would say things like which I wish I hadn't in light of what I know now.
[11:11]Why do you care about what she thinks?
[11:13]Why do you care about what they think?
[11:16]And knowing that in the animal world status is literally, literally a matter of life and death
[11:22]and status descent is.
[11:25]And what happens to a fish when there's, and by the way, not just a fish, but a lobster,
[11:30]we have the whole set of animals in here.
[11:32]What happens when they rapidly tumble down that social ladder is that their neurobiology
[11:38]is changed and their behavior is changed.
[11:42]And again, I can't ask a lobster or fish how they feel.
[11:45]But I believe what we call human mood, what we use our human language to describe as happy
[11:51]sad, humiliated, depressed, derives from those serotonin-based status signaling networks
[12:03]that are telling an animal when there is a fall in status, this is really bad that it,
[12:12]in order for the signal to work, it has to be uncomfortable for the animal.
[12:17]And almost, let's just say, painful.
[12:21]And I started, as I was working on this, I was thinking about how, you know, I'm a physician
[12:28]and I know about pain.
[12:31]And I think, like a lot of physicians and a lot of people, I sort of, even though I know
[12:37]psychological pain can be very, very, very painful, obviously, still physical pain seemed
[12:45]more real to me.
[12:48]And knowing the purpose of psychological pain, that is the evolutionary origins of it,
[12:54]that it's to really shape an animal's behavior, to catch their attention, like, uh-uh,
[12:59]this is really bad.
[13:00]You're at the bottom of the ladder, do something about it.
[13:03]It has to be very painful for them to pay attention.
[13:06]I wish I had known that I think I would be more compassionate about what it feels like
[13:11]to maybe lose a little status or a lot of status.
[13:17]And I think, in the book, it was so interesting how you compared it to social media and
[13:20]friend groups today, and not to take it away from the animals at all, but just in the
[13:24]way that it has real life implications, how the comparing in the social network you talked
[13:30]about in the book, how it used to be, like, as a teenager, you could go home.
[13:35]You would go to school, you would have all this status comparison at school, stressful,
[13:38]stressful, kind of like the animals roaming around, whatever.
[13:41]But then you could go home and regroup, and you could let your brain rest and whatever.
[13:45]And now you go home, and it's constant 24-7, your on Instagram all night, the kids are
[13:50]seeing each other's friends and monitoring their status, basically, constantly, which is
[13:55]leading to explizing fatigue and depression and anxiety, I don't know.
[14:00]So what do we do about that?
[14:01]Yeah, I know.
[14:02]It's really interesting.
[14:03]So what is social media?
[14:05]Okay.
[14:06]So why, I mean, to sum it into one sentence?
[14:08]I guess it's lots of things, but a big part of it is about comparison.
[14:13]It's about who am I relative to everyone else?
[14:16]And usually, I think the people who are on social media ultimately feel less than because,
[14:22]I mean, not only are you competing against the whole world, you're competing against a
[14:26]filtered whole world of images and so the biology of comparison, as I said, I think that's
[14:36]the building blocks of mood.
[14:38]So we see in the last several years this uptick in depression and anxiety and adolescence,
[14:44]which is interesting because rates of mental illness among adults has remained mature adults
[14:49]has remained pretty stable, but we're seeing this real uptick.
[14:53]And people are properly observing that there seems to be an association, like I don't think
[14:59]we've gotten to cause, but if there's between social media use and anxiety and depression,
[15:05]and not only that there seems to almost be a dose response curve, like the amount, the
[15:09]number of hours per week that people are up, the kids are on social media, it relates
[15:13]to likelihood of having depression and anxiety.
[15:15]So what's the connection?
[15:18]And I think that not only is serotonin, maybe the common language, kind of that common molecule
[15:25]that can help us decode the ups and downs in our kids mood, and by the way, our own
[15:31]moves.
[15:32]And even though I don't like saying it's about status again, but it's, I don't have
[15:36]another word for it, but the other way that this lens, I think, and help us understand
[15:41]and maybe do something about it is this, so there you can use an evolutionary lens to understand
[15:47]lots of things.
[15:48]Let's talk about obesity, right?
[15:49]So we have this skyrocketing rates of obesity.
[15:53]And one of the ways we talk about it is we say, okay, we're walking around in these bodies
[15:57]that we have this inherited, let's say, that we have this ancient, not only human,
[16:04]but we have this animal legacy.
[16:07]And a lot of our metabolic machinery that we have, you know, is shared with not only
[16:12]other mammals, but other vertebrates.
[16:15]And the systems evolved in settings where calorie scarcity was a given.
[16:21]Like when you're a wild animal or early man, you're living in nature, you know, one
[16:26]thing.
[16:27]Like they're going to be periods where there's not enough to eat.
[16:29]So as our metabolic systems were evolving and being sort of optimized and tuned to the environment,
[16:35]they were being optimized to a calorie scarcity environment.
[16:39]Now we've got this mismatch between this physiology that's adapted to that environment,
[16:44]and now this like obese or genetic, you know, whatever we want to call it.
[16:48]So that idea, Catherine and I started wondering about taking that idea and applying it
[16:55]to the skyrocketing rates of anxiety and depression, especially knowing that comparison
[17:03]seems to be a big part of mood or at least fluctuation of it.
[17:07]So we started wondering whether our social brain networks, which is the social brain network,
[17:14]you know, is literally there are anatomic regions of the human, the avian, the reptilian,
[17:20]the amphibian, the fish brain that's responsible for detecting changes in status and
[17:27]then signaling what to do about it.
[17:29]So there's a lot of brain real estate that's being occupied.
[17:32]It's important, but maybe animals in the wild have or early man or whatever frame you
[17:39]want to use for brain evolution, that assessments and competitions were periodic seasonal.
[17:48]For example, there are speed, a bunch of species where they compete during a certain
[17:52]pre-mating season and that's it.
[17:54]And then it's the hierarchy happens and boom, they go along.
[17:57]And maybe what we have now is a mismatch between social brain networks that evolved for
[18:03]some or intermittent, maybe even seasonal assessment.
[18:08]And now it's, you walk into school, it's in the cafeteria.
[18:11]It's in the classroom, it's academic, it's sports, it's looks, it's blah, blah, blah.
[18:16]And then there's no sanctuary because you walk out of class, you're on the bus home or whatever
[18:20]and you're reaching your pocket.
[18:21]And now, did again the likes on my insta post and it's, so it's this kind of tsunami of
[18:28]assessment.
[18:29]It's what we call assessment overload.
[18:32]And what an evolutionary frame would say is, okay, if the reason we have all the obesity
[18:37]is because we've got bodies that are evolved for one situation and we're in a completely
[18:42]different situation.
[18:44]Well, let's change the environment so that it's more aligned with the physiology.
[18:49]And so the parallel here would be, let's align the environment to be more tuned to this
[18:56]physiology and decrease the amount of assessment and I think social media is a big part
[19:02]of it.
[19:03]Now, how to accomplish that?
[19:05]I don't know because it's so addictive, but that's at least our working hypothesis about
[19:11]the connection between all these emotional symptoms and particularly anxiety, which is
[19:18]that feeling like you don't know where you're going to land in the hierarchy.
[19:22]If depression is that sad fish and euphoria is that winning fish, anxiety is that walking
[19:29]into a party and not knowing people are sizing you up and down and that feeling.
[19:35]So in my senior year of college, going back in the day here in 1997, 1998, my thesis,
[19:42]I was a psychology major and I did a study on the application of social comparison theory
[19:47]to eating disorders and I tested for comorbidity of basically of depression and anxiety
[19:54]with social comparison theory, which by the way never got published and my advisor and I tried
[19:58]to like put it in some...
[20:00]psychology journals and all the rest.
[20:01]But that was my theory.
[20:03]It's how much people compare what they eat,
[20:05]how depressed they are,
[20:07]and at least eating disorders, right?
[20:09]Because I noticed in the college setting, of course,
[20:12]like so many girls and myself included,
[20:14]not I didn't have a new story, although I might as well have,
[20:16]but whatever.
[20:17]Anyway, I was always noticing what everybody was eating
[20:19]and saying like, well, she's having this dessert
[20:21]and I'm having this.
[20:22]Anyway, I know you're going through your slides here
[20:24]to show me how it's like the same thing.
[20:26]Because I completely agree.
[20:27]And I, the gosh, there's so many things.
[20:30]So in Zubiquity, we wrote a chapter about eating disorders,
[20:33]but basically just to point out
[20:35]that how we feel about what's going on in the world,
[20:37]whether it's social stress and we, as we as animals,
[20:40]it affects our appetite, clearly.
[20:42]I mean, and there's really good reasons for it
[20:45]when animals are, when red deer are grazing,
[20:48]have these videos of these Slovenian red deer grazing.
[20:52]And when there's lots of predators around,
[20:54]they can smell it.
[20:55]They eat like this.
[20:57]They take a bite and then they look up
[20:59]their hypervigil and then they take a few bites.
[21:01]And they look like my daughter.
[21:03]It's exactly how I've done it.
[21:04]Oh my God, okay, sorry, go ahead.
[21:06]And then when they call the predators
[21:08]and I have the video to my class,
[21:09]I teach a course based on, and you see them,
[21:12]they're grazing and they're eating more
[21:15]and they're, I mean, so clearly the perception
[21:19]of danger and risk is affecting their eating,
[21:22]but the other piece is social, that's predators, right?
[21:26]But what about the social experience?
[21:28]Cause I'm just saying that, you know,
[21:29]we live as these social animals
[21:30]and that hierarchies are affecting how we feel.
[21:33]And by the way, one of the big advantages
[21:35]about being a high ranking fish, let's say,
[21:38]or is they often restrict access a food.
[21:43]So the subordinates don't get to eat as much.
[21:45]And it's so interesting because for birds,
[21:48]when you're high ranking, you know,
[21:50]when there's food, you'll be able to eat.
[21:53]So they don't overeat.
[21:54]They eat just enough.
[21:56]And the reason it's important is a bird not to overeat,
[21:59]is again, while animals balance starvation and predation,
[22:04]but your flight initiation time,
[22:08]if it's, if it takes too long,
[22:10]you're gonna be the one the predator gets.
[22:12]And so a lighter body mass leads to a faster
[22:18]flight initiation time and the,
[22:21]whereas the subordinates who are often hungry,
[22:24]when they do find food, they overeat.
[22:28]And I say overeat because it actually affects them,
[22:32]they're survival.
[22:33]So even though the dominance have more access to food,
[22:36]the subordinates tend to weigh more.
[22:39]And so they're actually at greater risk
[22:42]of being eaten by the predators,
[22:43]which works in favor of the dominance, right?
[22:46]Cause then they're, so it's this whole interesting piece.
[22:50]But what happens in social settings
[22:52]is lots of different eating.
[22:54]So this is a captive example,
[22:56]but captive great apes and submarine mammals,
[23:00]orchas, walruses.
[23:02]When they have social stress,
[23:04]when they feel isolated or even bullied,
[23:06]some of them engage in this,
[23:08]it's, it's self-induced vomiting.
[23:10]And it's a cycle of vomiting.
[23:13]And then they ingest the nemesis and they vomit again.
[23:16]It's not very pretty to talk about,
[23:18]but it's a response to isolation and social stress.
[23:22]And, so it's like buliming it for animals.
[23:25]I mean, I wouldn't do that far, but,
[23:27]but I would say, I would never go that far,
[23:30]but no, no, but I think there's some shared mechanism
[23:33]and my hunch is that there are bulimic patients,
[23:39]people who have bulimia,
[23:40]who talk about both the binge phase and the purge
[23:44]as being stressed, it's like a relief or release.
[23:49]And the binge part kind of makes,
[23:52]I mean, when you eat food, it can calm you down,
[23:54]but the purge part is, I think a little harder
[23:59]to kind of, for me to kind of get on top of.
[24:02]But it's interesting, and I wonder if there's some shared
[24:06]mechanism, a some self-soothing,
[24:09]like vagal mechanism that they share.
[24:13]But the social year next book could just be all the best
[24:17]all about the animal implications of the way we eat
[24:21]and the way we eat.
[24:22]I mean, I know you have some of that in all your books,
[24:24]but just to give you an idea for another one.
[24:26]This one, I've been working on a paper with
[24:29]an eating disorder specialist for like,
[24:31]it's the paper that we'll never get done.
[24:32]Like we keep on changing it and finding new
[24:35]and different things, but I came across a study
[24:37]it was done years ago of Gobi, this,
[24:40]I think they were brown Gobi,
[24:41]and Gobi are these pretty common fish,
[24:43]and it completely interesting.
[24:46]So the dominant Gobi's, they're dominance and subordinates
[24:50]and the dominance that were studied tolerate the subordinates
[24:54]is fine, it's they're fine.
[24:56]So they're going about their life, they're getting bigger,
[24:57]subordinates are usually younger, like who's you?
[25:00]So they'll call them adolescents.
[25:02]And they tolerate them until they get within five to 10%
[25:07]of their size.
[25:08]So the dominance are like, oh, that's fine.
[25:10]She can swim there, but as once they're in five to 10,
[25:13]they're present, they're perceived as a threat.
[25:15]And the dominance go after the subordinates
[25:17]and try to cast them from the area,
[25:20]which is like 100% predation.
[25:22]So what these adolescent Gobi's do is they,
[25:27]they have access to food, but they sell for strict
[25:30]to keep themselves from gaining weight
[25:34]and getting bigger, so to avoid conflict with the dominance.
[25:38]And I was shocked that the investigators,
[25:41]they called it a diet.
[25:43]That's not like my anthropomorph word.
[25:46]And I thought that was so interesting
[25:48]because it's really an example of using body size,
[25:52]meaning a fish, right?
[25:53]That body size itself can create competition and tension
[25:58]between two individuals, and that an animal can
[26:02]decrease the amount of conflict in a group
[26:04]by controlling how much they're eating.
[26:05]So that, interesting.
[26:07]Oh, this is so, honestly, the stuff is so fascinating.
[26:10]And I feel like we've only gotten a pinprick
[26:13]of the mountain of material in the book.
[26:17]I didn't even know which pick to discuss today.
[26:19]So I hope that listeners get a sense of just how deep
[26:23]your research goes and just how it makes us rethink
[26:27]everything that goes on in our day-to-day worlds.
[26:30]I think it's a really good sanity check
[26:31]to remember that the world does not revolve around us
[26:34]as people and we can learn so much from all the other
[26:39]species and you're pointing that out.
[26:41]It's super helpful.
[26:42]Well, I have to say, I mean, I feel really qualified
[26:45]to be sitting here, not for any of my academic trainer
[26:48]or anything, but because I really was not,
[26:50]my husband says I should not admit this to people,
[26:52]but I really was not much of an animal person.
[26:54]I would not, you know, I, we didn't have pets.
[26:58]I mean, we had like a cat.
[26:59]I think there's a kid like, it was, we weren't like,
[27:01]and it's so funny because, you know,
[27:03]keynoteing the American Veterinary Medical Association,
[27:06]I'm going to all, I'm like this in that world,
[27:08]I've become this figure.
[27:10]And I mean, now I have dogs and I love them.
[27:13]I have a completely different appreciation,
[27:15]but I was kind of the prototypic academic physician
[27:20]with one kind of point of view, probably arrogant.
[27:24]I don't know, maybe that's for somebody else to say,
[27:26]but I had no idea.
[27:27]And I studied evolutionary biology as an undergraduate.
[27:30]But then, you know, I went to medical school
[27:32]and so this whole experience for me,
[27:36]first of looking at, you know, cancer across species.
[27:40]I mean, did a study of breast cancer in other animals.
[27:44]And I'm an Ashkenazi Jew,
[27:46]and I was being screened for brachawan mutation,
[27:48]which I am negative for it,
[27:50]but increases the risk of breast cancer.
[27:52]And it was around that period in our research
[27:54]that we learned about Venezuelan Jaguars,
[27:57]who have a pretty high rate of breast cancer
[27:59]and ovarian cancer and some of them
[28:01]have brachawan mutation.
[28:02]And I mean, the connections,
[28:04]so first it was about medicine,
[28:07]because that's what I was professionally,
[28:08]but increasingly in wild hood is, I mean,
[28:11]reflects this, this lens of looking across species
[28:16]in a very systematic scientific way.
[28:18]I have a methodology and I create these models,
[28:20]but you can take this lens
[28:23]and you can literally put it on anything.
[28:25]So we put it on adolescence for five years
[28:28]and we think we've learned a lot
[28:30]and have a lot of insights,
[28:32]but I'm just really excited about putting it on lots
[28:35]of things where that human exceptionalism,
[28:37]that kind of arrogance, that, you know what it is?
[28:41]It's this, I think human exceptionalism is,
[28:44]the worst part of it is it's all these unexamined assumptions
[28:49]about our uniqueness.
[28:51]Yep.
[28:52]And that's the blindfold.
[28:54]Yeah, that's true.
[28:55]Well, thank you for taking our blindfold off
[28:57]with wild hood and for coming on Momstone our time
[29:00]to read books.
[29:02]Thank you.
[29:03]I'm so happy to be here.
[29:05]Thanks for listening to Momstone Have Time
[29:07]to read books, the award-winning podcast.
[29:09]Today's episode of Momstone Have Time to Read books
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[29:30]Momstone Have Time to Read Books.
[29:32]Thanks so much to Steve and Ryan at Textures Sound
[29:34]for the Sound Editing.
[29:35]And thank you to Morning Moon Productions
[29:37]for providing this fantastic intro and out trim music.
[29:40]Thanks for listening.
[29:41]You can always email me at zibi at zibiowans.com.