Jennifer Gefsky & Stacey Delo, YOUR TURN
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[1:15]Today I interviewed two authors, Jennifer Gefsky, who is the co-author with Stacey DiLo
[1:20]of a book called Your Turn, careers, kids, and comebacks, a working mother's guide.
[1:24]Jen Gefsky is the co-founder of Appray, a website and community dedicated to helping women
[1:30]re-enter the workforce with curated job opportunities. She is also a partner at Epstein,
[1:34]Becker, and Green, a national law firm that specializes in labor and employment law.
[1:38]She currently lives in New York with her husband and children. Stacey DiLo lives in San Francisco.
[1:43]She's a former senior multimedia producer for the Wall Street Journal and the founder of May Brooks,
[1:48]which was acquired by Appray. She is currently the CEO of Appray and also a speaker and workplace
[1:55]advocate with Harper Collins. Stacey graduated from American University and Northwestern University.
[2:01]I chatted with Jen in person and Stacey via Skype at the same time and our conversation ended up
[2:07]being more of a conversation than an interview where I ended up talking about my own career journey
[2:11]and anyway, sorry for going on about myself in this interview, but the three of us just had
[2:16]really fun time chatting, so I hope you'll enjoy listening. So welcome, Jen Gefsky and Stacey DiLo.
[2:22]Thank you. And thanks for having us, of course. So Stacey is on Skype just for anyone listening
[2:28]and Jen is sitting here with me for any sound differences. That's who they are.
[2:32]Easy to tell the difference, then I guess. Yeah, exactly. So what is your book? Your turn,
[2:38]careers, kids, and come back working mother's guide about that doesn't get communicated in the title.
[2:45]Well, I think that the best way to describe the book is it's really a roadmap for women to make
[2:51]career decisions when work and motherhood collide. So we find that women from pre-maternity and we're
[2:57]seeing in all of the events that we're doing. So many women are asking these questions even now
[3:01]before they have babies because they know that it's tough, you know. They obviously don't really
[3:07]know, but they they they imagine right that you know, I think that they view their lives
[3:13]as difficult already. So put a child into the mix and they know how difficult it's going to be.
[3:17]So we're seeing all these women pre-maternity through the whole journey of I've been out of the
[3:21]workplace for 15 years and now my kids are going to college and I want to come back to work.
[3:25]So this entire journey that women go on, the book really provides a roadmap for making decisions
[3:32]along the way, whatever those decisions may be, and then setting women up for success once they
[3:36]make the decision. So how if I want to work part time, you know, how do I do that successful
[3:41]or if I want to continue to work full time, what does that look like for me and my family?
[3:45]So that's how I would describe the book that's really not quite on the cover.
[3:48]The other things we found is that in our business, I pray, we focus primarily on women who
[3:54]have taken career breaks and helping them get back into the workforce, regardless of how long
[3:58]those breaks have been. And what's interesting is when you look at the the data, there are 15 million
[4:04]working women with children under the age of 18. And so while we tend to focus, the press focus is
[4:12]a lot on maternity leave and the need for paid leave, which we strongly agree with. And then that
[4:18]return back and then we focus a lot on women returning to work. And yet there's this large
[4:24]swath of women in the middle in that messy middle as we call it in the book who are trying to make
[4:30]these decisions about what, you know, whether to take a career break, whether to go part time,
[4:35]whether to go freelance and often they're left feeling very stressed about those decisions and what
[4:42]the opportunity costs are going to be when they make those decisions. And so like Jen said,
[4:46]if you see the cover of our book, it's a career dial with many stops along the way. And we
[4:51]wanted people to understand that they can turn it, you can go part time and still get a full time
[4:57]job later when you're ready. You can take a career break and still get back into the workforce. And so
[5:03]giving women these options and understanding that they have them and then how to make those decisions
[5:08]is really what the book is about. How do you know if you're in the messy middle? Is it by the piles
[5:12]of laundry or what? What's the tell? What are the telltale signs? The stress level. I would say
[5:17]mine was when I had to check if I had on matching shoes as I was thinking this book. Yeah, I think for
[5:24]me, you know, my messy middle really came to sort of a head when I felt like I was failing at every
[5:31]part of my life. Like I wasn't great at being a mom. I wasn't great in my job. And I just felt
[5:37]like I was stretched so thin. That to me is like the essence of messy middle where you're just
[5:42]surviving almost. I mean, obviously not everybody is that stretched. But I think pretty much every
[5:48]mom can, whether you're stay at home mom or you're working full time, it's hard being a parent. So,
[5:54]you know, that to me was, and you know, in the book we talk about when I got to that point, I quit,
[5:59]you know, I quit my job, which I never, ever thought I would do. I loved working. I loved my
[6:04]worked really hard to get to where I was. But I just felt like I couldn't do it anymore. And I,
[6:08]and I quit. And that's my way back up for two seconds. So what were you tell us what you were doing
[6:13]before? And the moment like how leading up to it, you realized how did you get to that like
[6:17]hitting bottom moment where you knew you just had to walk out of there. So, I was vice president
[6:22]Deputy General Counsel at Major League Baseball, which was, you know, such a coveted job and a job
[6:26]that I loved and was exciting and all these things. But it did require travel, which we found
[6:31]when we talked to women, travel is just a huge factor in terms of career success. If a woman
[6:37]has to travel, it means her significant other doesn't travel or somebody is watching the kids all
[6:41]the time. So, I was traveling, it was high pressure. At the time I had moved out of New York City,
[6:46]so I had an hour and 20 minute commute each way. So, I was leaving my house at seven in the morning,
[6:51]getting home at seven in the night, feeling like I never saw my kids. But I was the bare minimum
[6:56]in the office, like basically like 845 to 545, you know, which got the eye rolls from my male
[7:03]colleagues. So, I just was too stressed out and I just wanted it to stop and I wanted to get off the
[7:08]rollercoaster and I thought I'm going to just, that's it. I'm going to quit. I was lucky that
[7:12]financially we could do that. But in retrospect, the mistake that I made, and this is one of the
[7:18]reasons that I'm so passionate about this topic because I don't want women to make the same mistakes
[7:23]is that I didn't consider the the repercussions or the consequences of taking that break.
[7:30]Financially, emotionally, what my self identity was going to, how that was going to evolve to a
[7:36]place that I never expected. You know, the difference in our relationship with my husband,
[7:41]you know, when both our income providers and like all of a sudden one person's not getting a
[7:45]paycheck, it does change the dynamic of the relationship in a way. I no longer had a paycheck. So,
[7:49]all of those things I didn't think about really before I quit, but I don't regret my career
[7:55]break. There's a lot of great things about it, but I wish I would have known before all the factors
[8:01]involved with, including getting back to work, how difficult that that process can be. And, you know,
[8:08]a lot of women, I think the number one thing that Stacey and I hear is, you know, I can't afford to
[8:13]pay the babysitter. Childcare cost is one of the most draining financial things for American
[8:17]families today, 20% of income for the average American family goes to childcare. It's more
[8:23]expensive than putting your kids through college. And so, we hear that, you know, I can't afford the
[8:27]childcare. My paycheck barely covers it, but the hit on you financially is so much more than just
[8:33]the paycheck that you're losing in the long term. It's because you're losing your current money,
[8:37]you're going to come back at a lower income than when you left, even after just one year of
[8:42]being out. And then the rest of your career is based on that lower income. You're losing your retirement
[8:46]benefits, you're losing health benefits. So, there's so much to go into that financial decision
[8:51]of leaving. Very long answer. Wow. How did your career path affect your writing this book and everything?
[9:00]So, I was a reporter for many years and was really at the height of my career in terms of what
[9:08]I wanted to do. I was an online video reporter with the Wall Street Journal and at the time,
[9:14]and this always makes me feel a little bit dated, although technology moves really quickly.
[9:20]But the journal was launching their first online live shows. And I had always wanted to be the
[9:28]host of a live show. And so, when I was this kind of, you know, really excited about this moment,
[9:34]they asked me to come out. I live in San Francisco and they asked me to come out to New York to
[9:39]interview for the first show that they were going to launch as the host. And I interviewed and
[9:46]tried out and auditioned. And it was so awesome. And I came back, really excited. And I didn't get
[9:51]the job. And so, I ended up what we call sort of doubling down in San Francisco. I had just gotten
[9:58]married. We bought a half.
[10:00]Oh, and I got pregnant.
[10:02]And then several months later, Alan Murray,
[10:05]who was the head of WSA Digital at the time,
[10:08]called and said, CC, we're going to launch another show.
[10:12]It's going to be focused on technology,
[10:13]which was a little bit more at my alley anyway.
[10:16]And we'd love for you to be the host.
[10:19]And I was like, awesome, I'll totally do it.
[10:22]Let me move to your, and then I remembered
[10:24]that I was pregnant.
[10:26]And so I ended up coming to launch the show in New York
[10:31]and having just the best time of my career, honestly.
[10:36]But then I had to come back and have the baby.
[10:38]And I had told everybody that I would be back
[10:40]after six weeks.
[10:42]And they all shook their heads,
[10:43]and they were like, sure thing.
[10:46]And then, of course, I had the baby,
[10:47]and it didn't work out.
[10:48]But that I was back after six weeks.
[10:50]Fortunately, an company had a nice paid leave
[10:53]offering at the time.
[10:54]And I was able to stay out close to six months,
[10:57]which was not my plan.
[10:59]So I learned a lot in that.
[11:01]And then I discovered that in the paperwork,
[11:03]there was an opportunity to go back part time.
[11:06]And it was buried in a section of the paid leave paperwork
[11:09]that said, if you choose not to return.
[11:13]And so it was a surprise to me that it was even offered.
[11:16]And so I asked my manager if I could come back part time,
[11:19]and I did, and I ended up staying that way
[11:21]through the rest of my tenure at WSJ.
[11:24]And I think that's an important story
[11:27]just because the company had a policy
[11:29]that allowed me to go part time,
[11:32]which ultimately retained me.
[11:34]And I was able to have healthcare benefits
[11:36]and all that good stuff.
[11:38]But they didn't tell me that it was available.
[11:39]I had to ask for it.
[11:41]And within that, I started hearing from a lot of my peers,
[11:45]you know, how were you able to do this?
[11:49]What are some of the strategies
[11:50]that you used to go part time?
[11:51]And I said, well, I just asked.
[11:54]But it clued me into the fact
[11:55]that there was a need for resources for women.
[11:58]And at the time, there weren't very many online resources
[12:00]available, career sites that were really focused
[12:03]on helping women think through these transitions.
[12:05]And so I left it found one of those.
[12:07]And then Jen and I combined our companies in 2017.
[12:11]And so we've taken all those learnings,
[12:13]both our personal experiences, which are different.
[12:16]And then the fact that we've talked to just thousands
[12:18]and thousands of women and companies
[12:22]over the last years to really understand
[12:25]what those needs are.
[12:27]And then how to help both of those entities
[12:30]get ahead of them, right?
[12:31]There's a benefit for women who are highly educated,
[12:35]highly experienced, more so than really ever before.
[12:38]They now make up the majority of the college educated workforce
[12:41]to understand the individual power
[12:45]that they have to talk to their companies
[12:48]and to ask for what they want.
[12:50]But then to also help the companies really understand
[12:54]and they do, and they understand the benefit
[12:56]to the bottom line, but sometimes they need help
[12:58]in understanding how to make things work
[13:02]so that women will continue to work for them.
[13:05]And they end up getting very loyal,
[13:07]experienced employees as a result.
[13:09]So for your business, EPRA, what's the balance of women
[13:14]that you're helping versus companies that you're helping?
[13:17]That's a really good question.
[13:18]So Stacy, how many companies do we have on the platform now?
[13:22]Well, it really adds in flows just because of the nature
[13:25]of the way that jobs are filled.
[13:28]But we've worked with over 200 companies in the last three
[13:32]years.
[13:32]And I would say that from a volume perspective,
[13:36]we have more job seekers than we do companies,
[13:40]but then companies bring a large number of jobs.
[13:43]So we spend our time in both places.
[13:48]We've developed a lot of, if you go to our website,
[13:51]you'll see a lot of resources geared toward women.
[13:55]We really serve the women via the website.
[13:58]And so we have a lot of educational resources
[14:00]to help with refreshing a skill set or polishing a LinkedIn
[14:05]profile or your resume or really digging down
[14:09]and thinking about a lot of the things that we raised
[14:11]in the book, but maybe working with a coach
[14:14]to help you think it through better and figure out
[14:16]what's best for you.
[14:17]And right now, we have about 40,000 women on the site.
[14:20]So there's a lot of women.
[14:21]And we find that so many women are paralyzed.
[14:25]It's especially women who have taken career breaks,
[14:27]even if it's just for one year.
[14:29]They've just paralyzed of how do you start?
[14:31]How do you begin?
[14:32]How do I explain this gap on my resume?
[14:34]And so there's a lot of resources in the site geared towards that.
[14:37]But will we also find that more and more
[14:40]are women who want to pivot?
[14:42]So I've been a lawyer in my whole life.
[14:44]I don't want to do it anymore.
[14:45]I'm not fulfilled.
[14:46]It doesn't work with my home life.
[14:48]I want to do something else.
[14:49]So we're seeing that more and more.
[14:51]And millennials, more than Gen Xers, are doing that.
[14:55]So there's resources on the site geared towards that,
[14:58]that concept of pivoting.
[15:00]And you both are so busy.
[15:01]When did you find that to write this book?
[15:03]No, I just think you're like running businesses.
[15:05]You live across it.
[15:06]How did you collaborate on this book project?
[15:08]And how did you get it done?
[15:09]What's funny?
[15:10]Because obviously, you know a lot of authors.
[15:12]And I'm sure you've heard this before.
[15:13]But getting a book out into the world is incredibly hard.
[15:17]It's much harder than I think people think
[15:20]before they go through the process.
[15:21]So this process was from literally
[15:23]like beginning to end with three years.
[15:25]So from idea inception.
[15:27]That's not bad, by the way.
[15:28]Really?
[15:28]Yeah, right?
[15:29]Pretty years I just interviewed before you
[15:30]has been working on her book for 14 years.
[15:33]Oh my gosh.
[15:33]So I'm just saying.
[15:35]Yeah, wow.
[15:35]Well, she had a bunch of kids in between.
[15:37]Angela himself, I mean, she's great.
[15:38]It's a memoir.
[15:39]But I'm just saying three years is actually pretty speedy
[15:41]with you.
[15:42]Yeah, you know what I think almost, I think it's better
[15:44]to have a team.
[15:45]So it's Stacey and I, their co-authors,
[15:48]but we also had someone with the writing
[15:50]and that's Kathleen Harris who's credited in the book as well.
[15:53]And we would have weekly team meetings
[15:57]to literally line at it and go over and talk about ideas
[16:00]and organization and et cetera.
[16:02]But you know, the book proposal process for a nonfiction
[16:05]book, you basically got the book in a skeleton form
[16:09]when you're submitting it to publishers.
[16:11]So the process of getting a nonfiction book out
[16:14]is grueling in a way and getting a literary agent
[16:18]and finding a publisher.
[16:19]And we have a great publisher, a Harper Business.
[16:21]But it really truly is a process and a journey
[16:24]and a learning journey the whole time through.
[16:28]Every stage was sort of interesting,
[16:30]including when we launched, when our book hit the shelves,
[16:33]it was like still an interesting process
[16:36]to see how that operates.
[16:38]Yeah, and I recently heard, you may know this to be,
[16:41]I don't know what the statistic is,
[16:43]but I've been hearing that it's still just a fraction
[16:46]of women who actually get published,
[16:50]that it's still just a, you know,
[16:52]even getting women through, I mean, what Jenna's saying,
[16:55]all of the various steps to get a book out
[16:58]and to actually have a publisher is really,
[17:01]it's a lot of work.
[17:03]It's a lot of work for men and women, honestly.
[17:05]I mean, I don't have the breakdown by gender,
[17:07]but it's a slog.
[17:09]And the crazy part is that there are so many books
[17:11]always coming out.
[17:12]Yeah, I know.
[17:13]And yeah, how is that possible?
[17:15]Right, I mean, it's so much time.
[17:17]It's so much effort.
[17:18]Everybody is like, I had 57 introductions and blah,
[17:22]and yet here's this new slew every day.
[17:24]It's like, I don't know, I'm like,
[17:26]but I think what a lot of people don't realize
[17:28]is much of the burden is on the author.
[17:31]Not on the publisher or not on your agents.
[17:33]It is on the authors, which I think surprises
[17:37]a lot of first-time authors.
[17:38]It surprised me a little bit.
[17:40]And like I said, Harper Business is great,
[17:42]but it is a lot of groundwork by the authors.
[17:45]It's not just like, oh, I wrote this book
[17:47]and somehow it magically sells.
[17:49]You know, the getting the word out
[17:50]is really up to the authors for the most part.
[17:52]I saw a book talk recently.
[17:53]Somebody compared it to that the publishers
[17:55]are really just printers.
[17:56]Yeah, they become printers.
[17:58]And they're like, they make it better.
[17:59]They edit.
[18:00]They edit.
[18:01]They make it better.
[18:02]And then they're like, here you go.
[18:03]Yes, go ahead and have marketing distribution.
[18:05]Have fun.
[18:06]Yes, there is something to do that.
[18:08]Yeah, I mean, I'm oversimplifying,
[18:10]and I'm sorry if this is sends any publishers,
[18:12]and please keep sending me books, please.
[18:15]Anyway, okay.
[18:16]But you know, it's a process.
[18:18]Yeah.
[18:19]And I do think it surprises a lot of people,
[18:21]a lot of first-time authors, but it's, you know,
[18:23]I mean, the best way to sell books
[18:26]other than, you know, fictional books
[18:28]that are just amazing stories,
[18:29]but the best way to sell nonfiction books
[18:32]is by the authors to get out there
[18:34]and really talk about it.
[18:35]Yeah, and we really have the mentality
[18:37]of we just want to help one woman, you know,
[18:39]and then that one woman helps another woman.
[18:41]And I will say when times were dark,
[18:44]and it was tough, and you know,
[18:46]we both have regular jobs outside of being authors.
[18:49]And when we're so busy, I just kept saying,
[18:52]and we kept saying is a team like,
[18:53]this is gonna help a lot of women.
[18:55]And I really believe that the book is,
[18:58]I mean, we keep hearing,
[18:59]I wish this book was out there
[19:01]when I took my career breaker.
[19:02]I wish this book was out there
[19:03]when I was making these decisions
[19:05]because it really is a helpful guide
[19:07]to women who feel alone.
[19:09]And a lot of women feel alone.
[19:10]That's another, certainly an emotion that I had
[19:13]when I was feeling like a failure in all aspects
[19:15]of my life.
[19:16]I felt like I was the only one
[19:17]who wasn't able to figure it out.
[19:18]Like why can't I figure it out?
[19:20]And the fact of matter is of the thousands of women
[19:22]that we spoken to, everyone feels that way.
[19:24]I know, it's crazy.
[19:25]I mean, just for one of the aha moments for me
[19:27]for women who have taken career breaks
[19:29]is we were doing, what do you call it,
[19:30]when you get a group together, like a group of things here?
[19:32]Yeah, like a focus group.
[19:33]And it was all these Ivy League educated women
[19:36]who had taken career breaks.
[19:37]And across the board, everyone felt like they had nothing
[19:40]to add to a company.
[19:42]They had no value.
[19:44]They basically, their skills were completely eroded.
[19:46]And I'm like, oh my gosh, this is the message
[19:48]that corporate America is sending these women.
[19:50]They're incredibly smart and talented.
[19:52]And what we know is that regardless,
[19:54]almost of the length of career break you've taken,
[19:57]when you go back, those skills come back really quickly.
[19:59]And...
[20:00]being a mom and having that career break actually makes you a better employee. So all these things
[20:05]that, you know, this sort of information to tell these women to basically shake them and say,
[20:09]no, you do have value, you would be an incredible employee. So this is one of the messages in the book,
[20:15]too. Yeah. And we're really grateful. When just back to the publishing, we worked with,
[20:21]I'm grateful to Harper Business for this on their timeline. They pushed their timeline and it
[20:26]meant we had to work smarter, faster to get the book out. But we were able to get the book out
[20:32]in this year, this calendar year 2019 versus 2020, which is initially what they had proposed. And we
[20:39]felt like that was so important because the conversation around women in the workplace and the need
[20:47]on both the women's side and the corporate side is really strong right now. And I think we're seeing that
[20:53]evidence in the number of companies that we're going in and talking to. And it's been just really
[20:59]wonderful to go in and speak with parents groups and women's initiative groups and talk about
[21:04]and see them thinking about and being progressive about the policies and things that they're
[21:10]offering at companies and how they want to do to do better. So that's been a really nice piece of this.
[21:17]It's so great because I've interviewed a number of people all coming at this issue of women
[21:22]and working in all different angles, right? You've written like the guidebook, right? Everybody,
[21:27]like I feel like this should be a gift when people have a baby, like congratulations, here's
[21:32]your blanket. Yeah, like it should totally not worry. Maybe even just when they get pregnant,
[21:37]yeah, people were to give gifts for them. It wasn't like bad luck or something. But I think,
[21:41]you know, like the suffragettes in the olden days, like, you know, all these heroes came out of that
[21:46]movement and you couldn't necessarily see it at the time. I feel like YouTube and some of these other
[21:50]authors who are writing about it over time will become some of these heroes who sort of led the
[21:55]working mom to a better place, but we're in transition now. So it's not as clear. Well, like, I feel
[22:02]like everyone is like, no, it's true. Because, you know, everybody needs leaders and that's really
[22:09]what you're doing by writing the book and all the resources you offer people and everything. It's
[22:13]just like leading people out of sort of a situation that will probably shake out to look different
[22:19]than it is now as a result, you know? Well, and I really think this is such a unique point in
[22:24]history because women, I believe, are finally beginning to understand. We have a lot of power. We
[22:30]have like Stacy said earlier, we make up a vast majority of college graduates in this country.
[22:35]I mean, I think it's close to 60%. So, you know, we're more educated across the board than men.
[22:41]We have tremendous power in the workplace and women are just starting to understand that power.
[22:47]And instead of looking at it like, oh, please, you know, hire me or please, you know, let me
[22:52]have a flexible work schedule, you know, that ability to sort of control your destiny and to
[22:57]go to companies that, you know, respect women, respect all employees and provide a workplace that
[23:05]allows people to have lives outside of work, which is, by the way, millennial driven and
[23:11]Gen Z driven. I mean, this is not just a female thing. This is a sort of a generational thing,
[23:15]but it's so exciting to be at this point in time because we're seeing this like women,
[23:20]I hate to use the word empowerment because I feel like it is a little bit overused. But, you know,
[23:25]there's this new organization called, reach.com. Have you heard of chief.com?
[23:29]This is a new, oh, okay. So it's a new New York City base. It's for like C-suite level women and
[23:35]up. And it's basically you have to apply to get accepted, but it's a way for these really high
[23:41]level women to connect and to network and to build each other up. And I'm thinking, this is
[23:47]amazing. You should check out the website. It's really well done. But there's, you know, the the
[23:51]female quotient and just all these amazing women platforms out there that are allowing women to
[23:57]feel their strength and their power. So it's very exciting, I think. I feel like it's like taking
[24:02]back control, right? They felt like a very powerless and there wasn't a lot of hope. And I feel
[24:06]like a lot of women have been very depressed about this. And like now people like you were coming
[24:10]around and ready books like this thing. Like there's hope. Here's control. Here's how you can take
[24:13]back the piece that you can take back. Yes. And like that always makes people feel better. For sure.
[24:18]Absolutely. And understand that there are companies. If you're not working out one that is working
[24:23]with you, there are other companies out there that will and to to keep that sort of in your back
[24:30]pocket as you're thinking through all of these things. I feel like we should get your career path.
[24:36]So be what did you do? What's your path? Oh my gosh. I know. I'm like, sorry. This is now a total
[24:39]conversation. I'm not even there. The interviewing you anymore. Sorry. I hope you will read the book
[24:43]by the book. It's called your turn. No, I don't want to go. I mean, I've had a very windy road,
[24:48]but I've always loved to write and I've always loved to read. I wanted to be a psychologist,
[24:53]but my path led me to California. I followed the boy I was dating after college. And he wanted
[25:00]to go to California for a couple years and then go back to business school. So I said, okay,
[25:04]I tossed my GREs aside and my intensive psychology major. And I was like, well, I really like
[25:08]understanding consumer behavior. It's the same as sort of understanding people's behavior. So I
[25:13]wanted to do strategic planning for like ad agencies or branding firms. So I went out there and did
[25:17]that. And then the internet not to date me, but like the internet was just floating. And so I
[25:22]jumped ship and did internet marketing for a little while where there was like a keg party every day
[25:26]at the office. And it was like everybody that they were a millionaire. It was amazing that I moved to
[25:30]Unilever and did consumer product branding. And I broke up with the guy I went back to New York.
[25:35]And then I decided, you know what, to get to the next phase of marketing, if this is what I'm going
[25:40]to do, I need to go to business school and I had all these entrepreneurial ideas. My parents
[25:43]were like, don't start business unless you've got a business school. So I ended up going to business
[25:47]school and my ex-boyfriend was in my class. And I just didn't even know until you showed up on the
[25:55]first day. I mean, he had been debating where he was going to go whenever. So yeah, it was
[26:00]pretty funny. Because I should have been there as entertaining again at the spouse. No, no, no,
[26:04]I was dating somebody else. But I should have been there like as the spouse like partner. And
[26:08]instead I was there as the student, you know, it's very, I don't know. I felt like, I don't know.
[26:12]And like my parents, I know it's like, it's like this whole thing. And actually my parents not to,
[26:17]I don't know why I'm talking like, but my parents met at Harvard Business School also. My mom was
[26:21]like a course assistant. So I don't know. And then I ended up meeting my first husband there,
[26:26]having my kids with him. And I did a bunch of like little entrepreneurial things kept writing,
[26:31]had a little stint in Weight Watchers from where I was a leader. While I was doing a lot of writing,
[26:36]I wrote a book that ended up not being published. And then I had my four kids. I helped my
[26:41]current husband. I got divorced. I got remarried, helped him start up a crumb cake business because
[26:46]his family loves to make crumb cakes. So I helped like run that for a year. And I was like, I can't do
[26:50]this anymore. And then I started writing this other book. And a friend of mine said, you know,
[26:55]you should really have a podcast. And I was like, what's a podcast? Anyway. And here we are.
[26:59]So now the popular podcast is so exciting. So it's been really fun. But well, it tells you that
[27:06]there are, and I've had a windy path too, that there are lots of different turns that one can
[27:12]be in their career. And it all works out in the end. Yeah, it's true. I remember sitting in a class,
[27:18]like in business school, and you had to lay out like all your different personal development things,
[27:22]like what you were looking for in a job. And you've probably done this at some point. Anyway.
[27:26]And I was like, I have all these things that I think I'm like pretty good at, but there's no job
[27:30]for that. It's like, it doesn't fit anywhere. You need to take our purpose and passion, coaching circle,
[27:39]and help pinpoint exactly how to put those into one thing. Anyway. So now this is like a dream come true.
[27:45]Like sit at my desk and talk to people like you. So it's great. Anyway. So what is coming next for
[27:51]you guys? You have this book out. I'm sure you're all over the place still promoting. Yeah.
[27:55]Are you going to write another book? Are you going to do something more at that prey? Like,
[27:59]what's yours? It's so funny that you say that about another book. Because Stacey now is just out in
[28:02]San Francisco and Stacey now she was like, oh, you know, I'm thinking about the next book. And I'm like,
[28:08]oh my gosh, you want to write that book? Like, I don't know if I have it in me. So I don't know.
[28:14]To be honest, I think companies need a lot of help. When I'm seeing out there in Stacey,
[28:20]I don't know how you necessarily feel about this. But when I'm seeing out there in my work as an
[28:24]employment lawyer, but also in the work that that we do, that companies don't have this nefarious
[28:28]intent necessarily want to figure it out. They just don't know how. And it's not easy. It's not like
[28:33]there's a single answer that, oh, let me snap our fingers and have a great corporate culture that
[28:37]women want to come and work at. It's difficult. And I think it's difficult because it takes everybody
[28:41]in the company to be on board. It's not just leaders saying this is what I want. It's not just human
[28:45]resources people saying this is what we should have. Everybody in the company has to get on board.
[28:50]And so I think that there's tremendous need for education within companies for outsiders to come
[28:56]in and really work with companies on culture and especially in the arena of understanding
[29:02]women and the pain points. And you know, I remember, for example, when I came back from my first
[29:08]maternity leave and I was, I think it was an eight week maternity leave. It wasn't particularly long.
[29:14]And my coworker thought I was on vacation. You know, and it's like, I came back. I was exhausted.
[29:19]I was emotional. I was, you know, just couldn't believe that my baby was at home with a stranger
[29:24]and here I am. I didn't even know like what hour of the day it was. And so that real disconnect between
[29:30]companies thinking, oh, you've been off for eight weeks and now it's great to have you back. Let's
[29:33]get the ground, you know, hit the ground running and you just want to like crawl into bed. So
[29:37]that's just one example where we see companies starting to wake up and say, women need support
[29:41]this time in their career, especially if we want to retain them. So for example, we're seeing some
[29:46]really sort of four thinking companies. One woman comes back from attorney leave having a maternity leave
[29:50]coach. Did you know there's such a thing? I did not know. Isn't it an amazing idea? Like, I wish I had
[29:54]this. So a coach that you work with privately to just help you go through this period of time with
[30:00]It's a month or six weeks or two months.
[30:02]Or like when you come back from attorney leave
[30:04]and your company has like a basket for you on your desk
[30:06]and welcome back.
[30:07]And you know, things like that
[30:08]where you just feel like there's an understanding
[30:10]that you weren't on vacation.
[30:12]And it was a maternity leave.
[30:13]So, you know, just those are just a few examples
[30:16]but there's so many, you know, to help retain women
[30:19]because companies seem to do a pretty good job
[30:21]recruiting women at the entry level.
[30:23]And I hear that a lot from companies.
[30:24]Oh, we're great.
[30:25]We have, you know, 50% you know, diversity.
[30:27]And I'm like, what level?
[30:29]And it's always entry level.
[30:31]And then when you look up to sweets,
[30:32]you see sweets, you know, basically no women.
[30:35]So there's a lot of work that needs to be done
[30:37]on the retention of women and what's going on
[30:39]and what are the pain points?
[30:41]Inflexibility is obviously the number one thing
[30:44]that companies need to wrap their heads around
[30:46]because so many companies are stuck in those
[30:50]traditionalist and baby boomer ways.
[30:53]You've got to be at your desk
[30:54]and you've got to work 10 hours a day.
[30:56]And you know, if you're not here,
[30:57]it means you're not working.
[30:58]It's just old school and it's not the way
[31:00]the world works anymore.
[31:01]So that's slow transition to we can work remotely.
[31:05]We can still be productive if we have flexible hours.
[31:08]And the companies that are figuring that out
[31:10]are really winning the war for talent.
[31:12]I mean, Gen Zs are very smart about where they're going to work.
[31:16]They don't want to work for a company
[31:17]that doesn't have a great culture.
[31:19]Yeah, I think we're just excited to get the word out.
[31:22]I mean, I agree with these to be that it's an exciting time
[31:26]for women right now.
[31:27]And this is just, you know, we just launched the book in October
[31:32]and, you know, we have a lot of interest
[31:34]in just continuing to really get it into the hands of women
[31:37]so that they can make the best choices for themselves
[31:40]and their families.
[31:41]And then, like, Joe was just describing
[31:43]really help educate companies on how they can do better
[31:45]on behalf of women.
[31:46]Do you have any parting advice for aspiring authors?
[31:49]No.
[31:50]No.
[31:52]You know what?
[31:53]I mean, honestly, that it's going to sound cliche,
[31:55]but, like, don't give up.
[31:56]Don't give up.
[31:57]Just, you know, keep at it and keep going.
[32:00]And it's a slog.
[32:01]I mean, I think if you know that, it's similar advice
[32:04]we give to women coming back into the workplace after a break.
[32:06]It's like, you know, it's not easy.
[32:08]There's a lot of rejection.
[32:10]You shouldn't be in it for the money
[32:11]because it's not going to, you know, make you wealthy most likely.
[32:15]And it's a labor of love, but you've got to keep at it
[32:18]and keep at it.
[32:19]And if you love what you're doing,
[32:20]then somebody else will probably love it, too.
[32:22]I mean, I think that's sort of my main theme is don't give up.
[32:26]I think if you have ideas that you can test in posts,
[32:31]you know, on media or LinkedIn or someplace
[32:36]where it kind of elevates the idea,
[32:38]then the good news is that potentially people
[32:41]reach out to you and, like, you're doing,
[32:43]so you can start building a following through podcasts
[32:47]or all we have so many tools at our disposal today
[32:51]where you can be a writer
[32:53]and to start working some of that muscle that you have
[32:57]so that you can get exposure.
[32:59]You know, one of the things that we say in the book is that
[33:02]if you don't do it, it will never happen.
[33:03]If you don't ask, you'll never know, right?
[33:05]And so it's kind of that same thing.
[33:07]And it's advice that we give women
[33:08]when they're looking to return to the workforce,
[33:11]just start doing something, right?
[33:14]Maybe it's as simple as meeting people for coffee
[33:17]to talk about what you might like to do.
[33:19]But if you're interested in writing a book,
[33:22]then it's kind of the same concept
[33:23]can be applied there.
[33:24]Just start writing and getting some of your material out.
[33:28]And if it's in this direction, contact us
[33:31]because we'd be happy to post it on our website.
[33:34]Yeah, thank you.
[33:35]But Stacey has a really good point.
[33:37]And, you know, when we were starting out pre,
[33:40]there was this feeling like, oh, you know,
[33:42]we've got to keep our idea, you know, secret before we launch.
[33:45]And the fact that matter, I can't tell you how many people
[33:47]said, oh, we had that idea, and that was,
[33:48]I had that same idea.
[33:50]It's the same with a book because at the end of the day,
[33:53]it's incredible, it's so much work to go from A to Z
[33:57]that most people don't get there.
[33:59]So yes, everyone has an idea,
[34:01]but to actually bring that idea to fruition
[34:03]is a totally different thing.
[34:04]So I really like that idea of sharing sort of sprinkling
[34:07]the topic and seeing what kind of traction you get.
[34:11]If people are interested in it is a really,
[34:13]I think good way to go about it
[34:14]and start testing the skills of writing.
[34:17]It's hard that you have to be this fun.
[34:18]I mean, like I said before,
[34:19]one of the things that I think helped about having a team
[34:21]versus just being an author by yourself
[34:23]is having these weekly scheduled, you know,
[34:25]we scheduled this out.
[34:27]And if we didn't, I don't think it would have ever finished.
[34:30]So I think it's more difficult to do if you're by yourself.
[34:32]You have to be very disciplined about, you know,
[34:35]I've heard this before from authors.
[34:36]I write from 6 a.m. to 9 a.m. in the morning,
[34:39]and that's the time I spent.
[34:41]But not everyone is so disciplined, do you?
[34:43]Yeah, that's the hard part.
[34:44]Getting it out is the hard.
[34:45]Your house from 6 a.m. to 9 a.m.
[34:47]right?
[34:48]Right.
[34:49]That's exactly what I said to you.
[34:51]Who has that time?
[34:52]Who has that time?
[34:53]Well, thank you both so much for coming on mom's
[34:54]and I'm time to read books.
[34:56]Thanks, Vie.
[34:57]Thanks so much, Vie.
[34:58]Thank you.
[34:59]You've been listening to mom's and have time
[35:01]to read books with Zibi Owens.
[35:03]Please make sure to sign up for my newsletter
[35:05]at Zibi Owens.com to get more updates about episodes
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[35:11]Thanks so much.
[35:12]Today's episode has been sponsored by the Iceland readers
[35:14]retreat.
[35:15]Don't forget to check it out.
[35:16]April 29th to May 3rd, 2020, Iceland readers retreat.com.
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[35:24]to read books.
[35:25]Thanks so much to Steve and Ryan at Texture Sound
[35:28]for the Sound Editing.
[35:29]And thank you to Morning Moon Productions
[35:31]for providing this fantastic intro and now trim music.
[35:34]Thanks for listening.
[35:35]You could always email me at Zibi at Zibi Owens.com.