Sara Shepard, PRETTY LITTLE LIARS
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[1:22]I'm really excited to be here today with Sarah Shepard, who's the number one
[1:25]New York Times best-selling author of the Pretty Little Liars series,
[1:29]which inspired the free form television series. She has also written other young adult books
[1:34]and adult novels, including the lying game, also show and free form,
[1:37]their perfectionists, and the erises. Her novel The Eliza's has been
[1:41]optioned for TV development as well. Her latest book, Reputation,
[1:45]came out in December of 2019. She also produced Crown Lake on Brat TV,
[1:50]a graduate of New York University with an MFA from Brooklyn College.
[1:54]She currently lives in Pittsburgh with her husband and children.
[1:58]So welcome, Sarah. Thanks for coming on moms don't have time to read books.
[2:01]Thanks for having me. I'm so excited. This is Sarah's first podcast.
[2:05]She's so honored. I am so, I love podcast so much and I love this podcast.
[2:11]So this is like a great first podcast for me. I'm going to go really easy on you.
[2:17]Okay, please. It's okay. Very gentle. Okay.
[2:19]More of a nice podcast experience. Okay.
[2:24]So I want to talk about so much, but let's start with your latest book, Reputation.
[2:28]Yeah. Tell listeners please what this book is about.
[2:32]So Reputation, I write a lot of YA, but this is a book that is more in the adult space.
[2:38]And it is about a college enclave in the Pittsburgh area, which is where I live right now.
[2:46]It's a very prestigious school and there is a hack that happens
[2:51]to everybody that sort of works at the university. So whether you're an administrator,
[2:55]whether you're associated with like the hospital, the university hospital,
[2:59]whether you're a student, your emails are kind of seized and put on the server
[3:05]and for everybody to see. So from there it kind of follows a couple of different characters
[3:12]in different parts of this school and kind of what they are hiding and what this hack reveals.
[3:18]And of course there's a murder because it seems like there's a murder in all of my books.
[3:23]What's that about by the way? I know I wrote a whole essay about it.
[3:27]Actually if you were lucky enough to get the copy that was for sale in the airport at Hudson News,
[3:33]I wrote a whole essay about kind of like why I was drawn to writing about murder so much.
[3:39]And there really is no reason because I was always kind of obsessed with that genre growing up.
[3:48]And I just find like plotting out sort of murder mystery, thriller novels just really
[3:54]interesting and kind of a puzzle to figure out when I'm writing it. And there's like a
[3:58]whole bunch of anecdotes in that essay. And hopefully I'll put it up somewhere else if
[4:03]if you can't get that particular copy. But anyway, so the book just it follows a bunch of different
[4:08]people. All of the characters are women. They're all sort of dealing with different things.
[4:13]But it mostly centers on these, this family, the Manning family and these two sisters named
[4:18]Kit and Willa and their relationship and kind of what they're going through and things that
[4:24]they're hiding and suppressing and secrets that come out. So that is that in a nutshell, but there's
[4:30]a whole lot more to it too. And I'm looking at the book right now and I'm like this book is not very
[4:34]thick. It's like there's a lot packed into there. There's a lot packed into not very many pages.
[4:41]But that's great. Yeah, I guess. I'm like, wow, this is I, yeah, it was it was a fun book to put
[4:47]together for sure. And what made you write this story? Like what, especially the email hack part?
[4:53]Yeah. It's just like a worst nightmare scenario. And you were like, I always think about
[4:57]worst nightmare scenarios. That does seem to be a starting place for me of like what is
[5:05]what would be the worst thing I can imagine happening. And you know, having emails exposed,
[5:09]everybody can relate to that. This particular book I thought about and kind of conceived
[5:16]the idea around the time the Sony hack happened. And I read a lot about the Sony hack and how
[5:23]everything was sort of dumped on the server. And I sort of modeled the the way that this hack works
[5:27]after the way that that hack worked and how, you know, some of the executives and actors and
[5:32]and whatever. And just their personal details were exposed. Like things that they never thought
[5:39]people would find out about them. Like embarrassing things, you know, personal like,
[5:45]you know, hygiene sort of things like silly things like that, like not even affairs and whatever.
[5:49]But like what they're buying on Amazon. And it's just kind of like so much you do so much with
[5:54]your email. And you know, there are so many different things that your email tracks. You don't
[5:59]kind of realize how much of your life is in there. And it was just like an interesting thing to kind
[6:03]of imagine the different ways that people can be exposed. And then what can happen from that.
[6:11]And even in the trash. Oh, for sure. For sure in the trash. I was like,
[6:17]not that I have anything to hide, but I was like, yeah, I should just like empty my trash.
[6:20]Absolutely right. Because somebody, yeah, because somebody is kind of his, his bad deeds or sort of
[6:26]discovered by emails that he threw away. And I have tons of emails that I throw away. And I just
[6:32]think about, you know, emails that you dash off like just kind of being snarky about somebody else,
[6:37]maybe you work with or a friend or whatever that you never that you're writing to somebody else,
[6:41]you never think anybody else is going to see it. Or just kind of personal details. It's just,
[6:48]you know, it's it's hard to imagine somebody kind of trolling around looking at all that stuff.
[6:55]Using it against you, which some people do in this in this book. One time somebody wrote me
[7:01]thinking they were writing someone else, but it was mean about me. So ever since that happened,
[7:06]which I like have obviously not gotten up because I'm still talking about it like many, many years
[7:10]later, I am so careful. Yeah, my email. Yeah. You just never know. And I'm always like,
[7:16]am I writing the right person? Oh, yeah. Which I also still mess up all the time. And my,
[7:20]you know, as we rush, right? Yeah. All these things writing on your phone to like writing emails
[7:25]on your phone. You know, I always will hit, you know, accidentally reply all or something. And
[7:29]that happened to me too. Actually, I, it wasn't even that mean, but it was just, it was, I think of
[7:35]actually about book promotion years ago. And I thought I was writing it to one person that I was
[7:40]actually writing it to the publisher. Oh, kind of saying like, I don't think they're doing enough
[7:45]or something like that. And then, you know, and then I felt so bad. Although it was true,
[7:50]I did really feel that way, but I just like, it was, yeah, not intended. And I always think about texts
[7:58]too. I mean, I think I'm even, you know, some of my texts to certain people are not super nice about
[8:04]other people. It's like it's fine in the moment. And you don't really mean it, but you don't want
[8:10]the wrong person to see what you're writing. You know, because sometimes it is just heat of the moment
[8:15]kind of feelings need to get them out. And I'm going to do everything I can to stay on your
[8:20]good sense. Yeah, right. We're sending out these nasty texts about me. Yeah, right. Oh, she was
[8:24]terrible. Oh, yeah. Oh, my gosh. What a terrible experience. Okay. So I wanted to do this thing. It
[8:31]might not work. And it might not be funny at all. And I know the question when I even brought
[8:35]up was totally confusing. So you have a scene in the beginning, which I really enjoyed
[8:39]between Kit, who is married Patrick. We don't know at the time anything about him,
[8:43]really, but we find out later. And they, he says to her in this bar, when they're both on a
[8:49]work trip, answer my questions the way you would want your life to be not anything true. This is
[8:56]all just made up about your life in general. And so they have this whole conversation where
[9:01]he answers like, where would you want to live? And he'll say something's not Morocco or some
[9:04]place far away. And she said something else. So I wanted to ask you a few questions, but you can
[9:08]only answer the way, not the truth, but the way you would want it to be. Okay, let's see how it goes.
[9:12]If it's terrible, I'll delete it. Okay. Okay. Where do you live? I live in a beautiful house
[9:23]in Los Angeles. Oh, yeah. And what do you do for a living? I, you know what, honestly, I can't even
[9:32]lie about this. I love what I'm doing for a living. So I can't even say I'm doing something else.
[9:39]I had all these funny things that I wanted to do when I was a kid and they were like, totally
[9:44]out there, like, be on a soap opera. But I am honestly kind of doing what I want to be doing.
[9:50]I mean, maybe I'm like, also writing movies and I'm also taking over the world and have a podcast and
[9:58]have like all these things. But yeah.
[10:00]You know, that would be maybe me embellishing it,
[10:01]but like I've written 30 books and it's pretty off the same.
[10:05]Yeah. So like, I'm a writer.
[10:07]I think that's all I'd like to say about the best answer.
[10:11]I'm nice for it to just, yeah.
[10:13]I mean, it's a, I'm, I'm very fortunate.
[10:15]It's a great, it's a great life.
[10:18]I mean, it's hard, but it's, there are many hard things about it,
[10:22]but it's also like, I can't imagine doing something else.
[10:25]Like what are some of the hardest things?
[10:26]Um, you can vent now.
[10:28]No, no, the hard things are, um, you know,
[10:32]you it's, it's not like a steady job where you go into an office and you get a
[10:36]paycheck and you, you know, so it is kind of like,
[10:39]you always have to be thinking, okay, what is my next thing?
[10:41]What's my next book going to be or what's my next project going to be?
[10:44]And you, I sometimes get a little bit panicked if I don't have a good idea.
[10:49]And, um, or if I'm in the middle of a book,
[10:53]which I'm actually just finishing a book and when I was in the middle of it,
[10:56]I was like, I don't know what this is.
[11:00]And I don't even know if this is good.
[11:03]And what am I going to do?
[11:04]And you know, you have all these sort of panic scenarios and I work through it
[11:07]and writing the middle of a book is terrible anyway.
[11:09]But there's a lot of self doubt.
[11:11]And then you have to deal with like Instagram or Instagram, um, Amazon reviews
[11:15]and good reviews and like, you know, but you develop a thick skin.
[11:19]But like, regardless, it's, it's a great thing to be doing.
[11:22]And it's just such a like, it feels like a hobby, but it's also a job.
[11:25]And it's like, it's a really very happy about it.
[11:28]How did you get into publishing your work to begin with?
[11:32]I was living in New York and I was working at, um, I was working at Time Inc.
[11:39]However, I was not working for like people or time or anything like that.
[11:43]I was sort of working in there like advertising.
[11:46]Um, we did magazines for companies like I did a magazine, not me,
[11:51]but within this department, we did a magazine for the New York Stock Exchange.
[11:54]I did magazines for cars.
[11:57]So I would like, if you drove a Ford, I would make your magazine.
[12:01]So like Ford driver.
[12:03]So I was sort of writing.
[12:04]I was sort of editing, but it really was not what I wanted to do.
[12:08]And my sister, who still lives in New York, was interning at the time at this
[12:11]company called, well, at the time they were called something else,
[12:15]but they turned into alloy entertainment.
[12:16]Oh, yeah.
[12:17]The book packed her.
[12:18]Yeah.
[12:19]And she said, you know, on one day, I was sort of whining because New York is
[12:21]expensive and I was just like, I just need, I need some sort of
[12:24]freelance job that is not journalism.
[12:27]Because I realized I was not a good journalist.
[12:29]I sort of made up details.
[12:31]They had to print corrections for me all the time.
[12:33]So I was like, I need a freelance job where I can just like make up stuff.
[12:38]I can write fiction.
[12:39]And my sister's like, you realize my company, they do that.
[12:42]They sometimes hire ghost writers.
[12:44]So I was like, oh, I need that job.
[12:48]So I crashed their Christmas party with the intern.
[12:51]So like, she was the lowest person there, but I'm like, I'm coming to your
[12:54]party.
[12:55]So I came to their party and was like, I need to, you need to hire me.
[12:58]And I was really obnoxious, but they did give me a shot.
[13:00]They made, yeah, they had me do some sample chapters.
[13:05]And they're like, oh, you actually can write.
[13:07]And I started as a ghost writer for them.
[13:09]So I wrote all kinds of books for children, mostly about all kinds of crazy things.
[13:16]Like I wrote about this Japanese girl who was like a samurai fighter, which I knew
[13:22]nothing about, but I had to read all these samurai books.
[13:24]I wrote about like this ghost story about, I think it was like Randall's Island or like
[13:30]some sort of workhouse at the turn of the century.
[13:33]And it was like about this little boy.
[13:34]And like I had to kind of read about like, you know, early 1900s New York.
[13:38]So that was fun.
[13:39]I don't even remember what else I did.
[13:41]I did.
[13:42]And then I started doing a couple of YA books.
[13:43]And they said to me, would you like to try to develop your own series?
[13:47]And I was like, yeah, okay.
[13:49]And I kind of thought about what I wanted to do and sort of pretty little liars came out
[13:53]of that.
[13:54]I had no idea that it was going to sort of blow up to be the thing that it was going
[13:58]to be.
[13:59]But I just kind of wanted to write my own thing and I was really excited to do that.
[14:02]So that was sort of my introduction.
[14:03]It was like doing all this, all this ghost writing and kind of meeting the right people.
[14:08]And this is back, you know, in 2005, 2005, before actually 2005, where it felt more important
[14:15]to live in New York as a writer.
[14:16]I don't think that's true anymore.
[14:19]Getting to know a bunch of people in publishing was a good thing for me.
[14:23]And then what was it like for you when pretty little liars took off?
[14:26]Like what was that whole experience?
[14:28]I mean, it was crazy.
[14:29]So the first, you know, there were seven books that I had written in the series before
[14:36]I found out that there was a pilot and that ABC family liked the pilot.
[14:41]I had like sort of a following of readers, which was great.
[14:44]And this was back in the day of like my space where I would write, I would like write,
[14:48]you know, post some like teasers of like the next book on my space.
[14:53]And so I just was really happy that I had gotten to write seven books.
[14:58]And I had just sold like a new series called the line game.
[15:02]So I just was like, this is great.
[15:04]And I was really happy.
[15:05]So it was a complete surprise when they called me because also when you option your work,
[15:10]you don't really have much to do with like the Hollywood side of it.
[15:14]But I really didn't know what was going on.
[15:16]So when they called me, I was very surprised saying, okay, we have a pilot, ABC family,
[15:21]they're going to shoot it.
[15:22]We're going to cast soon.
[15:23]I was like, wait, what?
[15:24]And then it was just sort of a whirlwind because they sent me other pictures of people
[15:28]they were casting.
[15:29]I was kind of like, oh, these don't look like the girls in my book.
[15:32]But then I watched the pilot.
[15:34]Like it was amazing to watch the pilot because they used lines from the book, the first
[15:38]book.
[15:39]And I was just like, this is weird.
[15:42]And then like I met like the cast and then they started shooting the whole series.
[15:47]And then so then it just became this like, it was a crazy experience.
[15:51]It was really fun.
[15:52]And then it was really great that people liked the show.
[15:56]And then that brought new readers in and that was really fun.
[15:59]I mean, the whole thing was just like kind of hard to imagine that it actually happened.
[16:03]It was great to see, you know, this silly thing that I sort of had in my head and come
[16:10]to life and like buildings at the Warner lot, like were named after, you know, the Rosewood
[16:15]high school and whatever.
[16:16]And it was just like, oh my god, you know, it's crazy.
[16:19]It really is.
[16:20]There's no even telling it now.
[16:22]And this was like 10 years ago when this all happened, it's still like, did that happen?
[16:27]Yeah.
[16:29]But it did.
[16:30]It was really fun.
[16:31]And that series was sort of based partially on your mainline Philly growing up.
[16:35]Yeah.
[16:36]Definitely the locations.
[16:39]Definitely the characters.
[16:41]I certainly never had a stalker or knew anybody who had a stalker, you know, nothing traumatic
[16:48]like that ever really happened when I was growing up.
[16:51]But you know, that's where you just sort of imagine.
[16:55]But a lot of the other situations did sort of happen, you know, the more kind of grounded
[16:59]things that happened to the characters.
[17:01]And that was what, you know, that was a lot of fun to kind of explore a lot of the things.
[17:04]Because I think because all the characters were going through, you know, different things,
[17:08]whether it's like, you know, identity or kind of like, you know, sexual, you know, awakening
[17:14]or stuff with parents or sort of like who am I and, you know, what do I want?
[17:21]And so that, you know, it was just, it was fun.
[17:24]And especially as like a first novel to use so much of like where I grew up and what I
[17:29]I went through was like a really fun experience.
[17:32]I feel like people have such a special place in their heart for your books the way I have
[17:36]for Sweet Valley High.
[17:37]Oh, right.
[17:38]Did you read those?
[17:39]It was not allowed to read Sweet Valley High.
[17:41]What?
[17:42]I was not.
[17:43]My mom was a bit, she still is.
[17:45]She's a big reader, a huge reader, like most of my book recommendations, like it from her.
[17:50]Okay.
[17:51]And growing up, once I was old enough to read kind of chapter books beyond, she just was
[17:57]like, you're reading adult fiction, like so, which had a lot of, you know, pretty adult
[18:04]situations in it yet.
[18:06]I was not allowed to read Sweet Valley High.
[18:08]I think she just found it like trashy.
[18:10]I'm like, and now I go back and read that of mine, they weren't, they, I don't know.
[18:15]But instead I was reading like the Joy Luck Club and the Prince of Tides and like whatever
[18:20]was popular sort of around when I was growing up, which I loved and I, it's okay.
[18:25]I think that I, that I missed out on Sweet Valley High because I read a lot of, I was
[18:29]allowed to read Judy Bloom.
[18:31]So that was, like, that was more of my kind of formative young adult from Judy, reading
[18:38]Amy Tand.
[18:39]Yeah.
[18:40]Yeah.
[18:41]Yeah.
[18:42]So then I just sort of jumped, jumped to that.
[18:42]So I'm, I'm a little sad that I didn't get to read Sweet Valley High.
[18:45]But, but yeah, I mean, it's not too late.
[18:48]It's not too late.
[18:49]I have read a few since then and I don't remember which one so yeah, I know that they,
[18:55]I, I do love speaking of being grounded.
[18:58]Um, you had this really funny quote, which made me feel like I knew you, which it probably
[19:02]is not true at all, but, um, Willa is talking to her sister, kid and she tells her sister
[19:07]that she lives in LA and Venice specifically because she loves to surf and that surfing
[19:12]grounds her.
[19:13]Right.
[19:14]And then can't replies.
[19:15]I never know what people mean when they say something grounds them, right?
[19:18]Right.
[19:19]Which I feel like you were poking fun at.
[19:20]Yeah.
[19:21]I was poking fun at that like kind of lifestyle of, you know, a ballet of like, you know,
[19:27]where everybody's spiritual and how they're like healing stones and like whatever.
[19:32]And kid is much more cynical and kind of like practical and kind of like, and she's also,
[19:38]you know, these are two sisters who were very close and then her, you know, one of them
[19:42]took off and like basically doesn't really see her family so much anymore and, and I think
[19:46]she, the older sister, kid who remained, you know, back where they grew up and is kind
[19:51]of looking after their father and kind of taking over at the college and all these things
[19:57]is a little bit resentful in a way that like she.
[20:00]kind of took off and is also confused by Willa's life
[20:05]because she's not married.
[20:07]She's not like following the same track
[20:08]that that kid is following
[20:10]and doesn't have the same priorities, I guess.
[20:13]They're very different and it's, you know,
[20:16]it was fun to kind of see them kind of poke at their differences
[20:19]but also come back together.
[20:21]Do I know what that means?
[20:23]I mean, I like, do you feel like things
[20:25]ground you, ground me, keep your calmer?
[20:28]Like what do you go to when you're feeling totally
[20:30]so I'm feeling totally stressed.
[20:31]I'm a runner so I do, I do run a lot
[20:34]so that's, that's very helpful.
[20:36]I would say, yeah, just like sort of being outside.
[20:38]So I do, I do sort of understand like surfing
[20:41]and the like waves and the cold water
[20:44]and the getting out there and paddling,
[20:46]I used to surf too.
[20:47]Okay.
[20:48]Not well.
[20:49]So I do understand that but I would say, you know,
[20:53]either running for sure reading, just relax.
[20:57]Just like lying in bed and reading
[20:59]and are like taking a bath and reading,
[21:01]kind of like a lot of things with reading.
[21:03]Even when I'm running, I am listening to a book.
[21:06]So I would say for sure books, books are the things
[21:09]that make me feel calm and relaxed.
[21:12]And when you're, when you're writing,
[21:14]where do you tend to do that?
[21:15]Do you like to write at home or do you go out and about?
[21:17]No, I have an office.
[21:19]It's, I mean, it's surrounded by books like this office
[21:22]though not as neat, but it's at the top floor of my house
[21:26]and it's, I don't hear my kids as much.
[21:29]But I, you know, have a big screen like kind of
[21:32]probably the same computer that you have
[21:34]and it is kind of the best place for me.
[21:38]I used to be able to write anywhere on trains
[21:41]and coffee shops on the plane.
[21:43]And lately I just, I can't do that so much anymore.
[21:48]I also feel like whenever I'm on a plane
[21:51]and I'm trying to write something,
[21:52]the person sitting next to me is like,
[21:54]what are you doing?
[21:55]Yeah.
[21:56]I, what, are you an author and then you're like,
[21:58]you have to get into that and it's fine,
[22:00]but it's like you're trying to work.
[22:02]I don't know.
[22:03]So mostly I just write at home.
[22:05]Yeah. And you mentioned you were in the middle
[22:07]of another book now.
[22:08]I am.
[22:08]Can you talk about that?
[22:09]Just finishing it.
[22:10]It is another, it's another book for adults.
[22:13]Right now it is called Safe in My Arms,
[22:16]but I don't know if that will continue to be the title.
[22:20]It was kind of the working title.
[22:21]I am not good at titles.
[22:22]I feel like it takes me a long time
[22:24]to kind of figure out a title.
[22:25]And often titles are suggested to me.
[22:27]And I'm like, that's good.
[22:29]It's just, it's not my, it's not my kind of strength.
[22:32]But it is, yeah, it's another thriller.
[22:34]It is another worst case scenario where like,
[22:36]there's this sort of assault that happens
[22:39]at your, at a nursery school or at kids nursery school
[22:42]and like, it's just sort of chaotic
[22:44]and there's all these scandals.
[22:45]It's kind of like a school scandal book.
[22:47]And there are, you know, it's about three women
[22:50]and they're all sort of hiding something.
[22:52]So this is like sort of, I'm always seemingly writing
[22:55]about people that are hiding things
[22:57]and then how the things are exposed.
[22:59]But it's a kind of a different way
[23:01]that they're exposed.
[23:02]So I am just about done with it.
[23:05]I think I'm gonna send it to my editor like next week.
[23:08]And I have, luckily I have an idea for the next book too,
[23:13]which is like, I actually have an idea for two more books,
[23:16]which is usually doesn't happen,
[23:19]but I kind of came up with this other thing too.
[23:20]So I also have a YA book coming out in June
[23:26]and it, I wrote it with a young influencer
[23:29]and it's about sort of the world of influencers in LA,
[23:33]teen influencers, yet another murder mystery
[23:36]and it kind of gives an inside look
[23:39]into what being an influencer really is
[23:43]and it's not always very pretty.
[23:45]It seems like fabulous and like perfect, of course,
[23:49]but it's not all the time.
[23:52]So that is coming out in June.
[23:53]I'm really excited.
[23:54]What's that called?
[23:56]It's called influence, right?
[23:57]Yeah.
[23:58]Yeah, so I'm excited to kind of do some events for that
[24:01]and yeah.
[24:02]And her name is Lilya Buckingham.
[24:04]She is the co-author and she's really great.
[24:08]Do you have any advice to aspiring authors?
[24:11]You know, I think just keep at it.
[24:15]I mean, try to crash a Christmas party if you can.
[24:18]Try to get in there how you can.
[24:19]I mean, I just think persistence.
[24:21]I have been rejected many times
[24:23]and even as an author of many books,
[24:25]like I will pitch ideas to editors
[24:29]and you have to kind of get used to rejection
[24:33]because it's going to follow you through your life.
[24:36]But also, you know, read as much as you can
[24:39]and write as much as you can.
[24:40]And don't be afraid to kind of show your work to people.
[24:43]Because for so many years, I was afraid to show,
[24:48]you know, anybody what I would write.
[24:49]And I think, you know, a critique is a good thing
[24:54]and kind of it helps you learn.
[24:56]But yeah, I mean, I think just keep at it.
[24:58]And a lot of people ask, you know, like,
[25:02]you're sitting down and do you ever get writer's block?
[25:05]And what does that like?
[25:06]And I think to kind of keep from writer's block,
[25:09]you just have to kind of keep going.
[25:11]You have to keep writing, even if it's bad,
[25:13]just get something out, just type something.
[25:16]You can always fix it later.
[25:17]I have many, many days where what I write,
[25:21]I feel like is terrible.
[25:22]But then I come back the next day and it's like,
[25:25]oh, well, I did at least write like five pages.
[25:27]So, you know, that's something and then I can fix it.
[25:29]So, you know, I think a lot of people
[25:31]just sit down the computer and think, okay,
[25:33]my first sentence needs to be perfect.
[25:35]My next sentence needs to be perfect and they don't.
[25:37]They can be terrible.
[25:38]But you just have to get something there.
[25:41]And yeah, that's kind of how you build a book.
[25:44]It's not always fun, but you just have to keep doing it.
[25:47]Awesome.
[25:48]Well, thank you so much.
[25:49]How did it go to the first podcast?
[25:51]You survived?
[25:51]I did it.
[25:52]Yeah, it was great.
[25:53]Thank you so much.
[25:54]Okay, your questions are awesome.
[25:55]Oh, thank you.
[25:56]All right, well, congratulations on finishing one.
[25:58]Thank you.
[26:00]Thanks for coming on.
[26:00]All right, take care.
[26:02]You've been listening to Mom's and have time to read books
[26:04]with Zibi Owens.
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