Caitlin Mullen, PLEASE SEE US
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[1:22]I'm here today with Caitlin Mullen, who's the debut author of PleaseCS.
[1:26]Caitlin received her BA in English and creative writing from Colgate University,
[1:30]an MA in English from NYU and an MFA in fiction from Stony Brook University.
[1:34]At Stony Brook, she taught undergraduate creative writing, served as an editor and contributing writer
[1:39]at the Southampton Review, and worked as a bookseller at Word in Green Point.
[1:43]She has been the recipient of fellowships and residencies from the Salt and Stole Foundation
[1:47]and the Vermont Studio Center. Her short fiction has appeared in Joyland, Blackbird,
[1:51]Meridian, the Baltimore Review, and Day 1. Originally from upstate and the Jersey Shore,
[1:56]she currently lives in Brooklyn. So welcome Caitlin. Thanks so much for coming on
[1:59]mom's and have time to read books. Thanks so much for having me. And Caitlin and I were just
[2:03]commiserating over kids who don't sleep. She was a four-month-old, and we're going to go easy on her.
[2:09]I guess you didn't sleep at all last night. But welcome anyway. Please see us.
[2:14]Tell us listeners, please let this us a bet. Sure, please see us.
[2:18]Take place over the course of a single summer in Atlantic City. At the beginning of the novel,
[2:23]we learn that the bodies of two women are hidden in the marsh behind this
[2:28]CD at Atlantic City Motel. But no one knows they're there even that they're missing.
[2:33]And then we meet Clara. Clara is our first main character. She is a recent high school dropout.
[2:39]She's working as a boardwalk psychic. And she and her aunt run this shop, but they're having trouble
[2:45]making ends meet. The casinos have been shutting down. There haven't been as many tourists in Atlantic
[2:49]City. And Clara also starts having these disturbing, violent, powerful visions. And she doesn't
[2:55]understand what they mean or where they're coming from. And then we meet Lily. Lily is our second
[3:00]main character. Lily has recently moved back to Atlantic City after starting her career
[3:06]in New York City in the art world. But that all fell apart in one disastrous,
[3:12]ill-fitted evening for her. So she's working as a receptionist at a casino spa. And Lily and Clara
[3:18]set out to try and figure out what Clara's visions might mean. What is happening to women
[3:22]in Atlantic City? And is there any way they can possibly help these women?
[3:26]So why this book? How did you pick this topic? How did you get involved in it?
[3:31]Yeah. So I grew up outside of Atlantic City. And the book is inspired by true events in 2006.
[3:38]The body is a four women were found in the marsh behind a CD Motel on the outskirts of Atlantic City.
[3:44]The crime hasn't been solved. So no one really knows what happens. And I was away at college
[3:49]during the time, so I wasn't in the area when when the events occurred. But every time I
[3:54]came home from college, I would drive by this scene, this marsh where these women were found. And
[4:00]I just found it so heartbreaking and so sad. And I was haunted by it. So when I went to get my MFA
[4:07]and started to work on a novel, I decided to explore the crime and a little more deeply.
[4:12]And did you always know you wanted to be a novelist? Oh, I mean, like a lot of writers, I was
[4:19]a really bookish, quiet kid. I could just spend hours by myself in my room reading books. And that
[4:24]was just heaven. I didn't think of writing novels as something someone could just do. I thought you
[4:29]had to be so special and, you know, anointed in some way. So it took a long time for me to come
[4:35]around to the idea that I could actually write a book and I could go to graduate school for writing
[4:39]and maybe come out of that with a novel of my own. So it took me a little while to get there.
[4:43]But I always loved reading. I worked in publishing in my 20s and was around books.
[4:48]It was structured my entire life around being around books. But it took me a little longer to get
[4:53]to the point where I thought I could write a novel. So what was the turning point? When did you say,
[4:57]okay, fine, I'm going to do it. Why not me? Oh, I remember that moment distinctly. I was working
[5:03]at this point. I wasn't working publishing anymore. And I had taken this marketing job that I
[5:07]just hated and the people that work were so mean to each other. And it was just not a nice place
[5:11]to work. So I went to this family party and everyone's asking, like, what are you doing?
[5:16]No, you know, what are you doing at your job? And I remember explaining to people what I was doing
[5:21]and thinking, like, I don't care about this at all. Why am I doing this? Why am I taking the plan
[5:26]B path first? Why aren't I doing plan A first, which is what I really want to do and write a novel?
[5:31]So I applied to graduate school a couple weeks after that. And that was it.
[5:37]And was this your grade? Did you write this as your MFA thesis or did this come after?
[5:41]Or what was the process for writing this book? I did. So I started my MFA with another book
[5:46]in my mind. And it was a book that was also set in South Jersey that also explored
[5:50]the area in the wake of the casino shutting down in the 2008 economic collapse and
[5:57]storm Sandy. But I sort of took a break from that book between my first and second year graduate
[6:03]school and started this book as a, you know, like, alternate novel to that book. And then I was
[6:09]quickly much more consumed by the themes of this book by the characters. And it just took over.
[6:15]And it was my MFA thesis and then what happens. And then so at the end of my MFA program,
[6:22]I had a meeting with an agent before I graduated and she and I just clicked. It was just good luck.
[6:26]That this was the right reader for my novel. This was the person who had a vision for how we could
[6:31]edit it moving forward. And I just, that was really lucky for me. And she and I talked about
[6:38]some changes that we could make. I spent the summer working on those changes. And I also
[6:43]was the recipient of a residency at the salt install colony in Ithaca, which is a really,
[6:48]really wonderful residency for New York state based writers and artists. And I just spent
[6:53]by months there with pages pinned to the wall and posted it everywhere. And it was like my beautiful
[6:58]mind, John Nash moment, just would unfurl. She eats a butcher paper and scribble all over it and do
[7:03]timelines. And I was sort of spat out on the other side of that experience feeling like,
[7:08]this is my book. It's finally at the place where it's meant to be. And yeah, we had a few more
[7:15]rounds of smaller edits after that. But that was pretty much the book that got submitted to
[7:19]publishers. Oh my gosh. And then it sold. And that was it end of story. Yeah. And of course,
[7:23]I worked on it with my editor after it sold. But I think, you know, when you hear a lot of stories
[7:28]about writers, it takes a long time to find an agent and a publisher and an editor that you
[7:33]click with. And I was just really fortunate that those things click into place. And the book is good.
[7:39]I mean, that's why you're not just not just like it got flexural obscurity for no reason. I mean,
[7:43]you're a really, really great writer. And thrillers are so popular. And it's great. It's like
[7:47]the combination of a lot of very marketable awesome factors. Yes. Yes. That also helped.
[7:52]I also found it so interesting. You used to work at Word bookstore. I did, which I've been to,
[7:57]which is fantastic. I love independent bookstores. What was it like having that point of view that
[8:01]you could see through what people are buying and just getting the inside look into a bookstore
[8:06]life and then having a book that now you're having your lunch. Yeah. So perfect. Full circle.
[8:11]Yes. I wish every author would have the chance to work at a bookstore. It was just such
[8:16]a formative experience for me in that I would be shelving books. And, you know, I would have spent
[8:21]the morning working on my own novel and I would shelve other people's books and say, well, they did it.
[8:24]They figured it out. This person figured it out. It made me see it as something more obtainable.
[8:30]I got to meet authors who were my heroes, you know, when they would come in for events and come
[8:35]into sign stock. And I also, I think it made me think about, you know, when you're selling books,
[8:43]you have a short amount of time to tell a customer why you're so excited about a book. What makes
[8:47]it different from every other book in the store? Why should they spend their money and their time
[8:51]on this book? And then I was able to think about my book in that sense too. You know, if this
[8:57]we're a book in a bookstore, what would someone say about it? What would they hopefully find
[9:02]exciting about it? And I think that was a really useful opportunity for me to get out of my own head.
[9:06]You know, you spent so much time writing this book in your own head. And it put me in the reader's
[9:10]shoes, which was beneficial, I think, to jolting myself out of my own brain.
[9:15]I interviewed Mary Laura Felpott who works at Parnas. And she said, part of what inspired,
[9:21]I miss you when I blink. I hope I get there. I miss you when I blink. Is that she wanted to
[9:26]find me on the shelf like that, but couldn't answer that like inspired yours. Did you have any
[9:30]of that sort of like, I want a thriller, but I want it like this or there's not a book about
[9:34]South Jersey or there's not a book about this crime or was there any of that type of I need to
[9:39]fill this void? For sure. I mean, I definitely believe in that advice. The right the book you
[9:44]wish existed, right? The book you'd want to read. It was a bit of all those things. It was a sense
[9:49]that people aren't really writing about South Jersey. And since I grew up there, I had this well
[9:55]knowledge and experience and knew the textures of the places pretty well.
[10:00]It was the idea that I wanted to write a thriller that was in my mind a little bit of an
[10:06]inversion of a typical thriller and that a lot of those books start out with the murder
[10:11]or discovery of a body as the inciting incident for the plot.
[10:15]And then you leave the victims behind or you're following a police detective who in a lot
[10:20]of cases is a man as he's going to crack the case and deliver justice.
[10:25]And so I wondered what a thriller would look like that also gave the victims more of
[10:30]a voice throughout the book.
[10:31]So the book features stories from the point of view of the murdered women, both leading
[10:37]up to their deaths and afterwards as a way to incorporate them more fully in the story.
[10:43]So cool.
[10:44]So not to delve into your personal life too much, but did anything in your own
[10:47]family background inspire this book or you're writing or has having a new baby change
[10:53]the way you see the world, anything about those relationships?
[10:57]Well, I think I mean, I have a daughter and this book is very much invested in the way
[11:01]the world treats women.
[11:03]The way violence is committed against women in these heinous horrible huge ways and in
[11:09]sort of smaller day to day ways.
[11:11]So when I think about, you know, the kind of world I want my daughter to grow with
[11:15]up in or the kind of person I want her to be, I don't want her to be a person who has
[11:19]has to send her life worrying about the things that maybe I've had to worry about or
[11:23]the things that my mom's generation had to worry about are the way, you know, her mom's
[11:27]generation had to worry about things.
[11:29]I mean, we're not, you know, she's not going to live in a perfect world, but my hope
[11:31]is that it will be one that's safer for women and more encouraging of women in a lot
[11:37]of ways.
[11:38]Tell me about these visions that Clara has, so Clara and her and deaths have a store
[11:44]there, like handing out little cards on the street that everybody drops two seconds
[11:47]later.
[11:48]It's like completely demoralizing and yet she has all these visions that keep coming back
[11:52]to her.
[11:53]How did you come up with that?
[11:55]And also have you ever had any visions?
[11:56]I'm assuming no, but no, this could be like the best question ever.
[12:00]So I don't have any visions like Clara for better or for worse.
[12:05]And when I was writing Clara, I wanted, she was a character who didn't have a lot of power,
[12:10]right?
[12:11]She's 16, she's a high school dropout.
[12:13]Her aunt in a lot of ways manipulates her, coerces her into doing things she doesn't
[12:17]really want to do.
[12:20]And I wondered, well, what if she really was psychic?
[12:23]What if this wasn't a sham or a con?
[12:25]What if she did have some sort of power that she could use to her advantage?
[12:31]I mean, she doesn't always understand what her visions mean and her gift as she calls
[12:34]it is limited in some ways, but it was a lot of fun for me as a writer to play with what
[12:41]is, you know, in an otherwise very realistic novel, something touched with magic.
[12:47]And I also, I got to do a lot of research with Tara, which was really fun.
[12:51]So Clara reads Tara cards to, you know, pay her rent.
[12:55]And so every time Clara would give a reading in the book, I would take my Tara cards out
[12:59]and I would deal a reading.
[13:01]And I would use whatever came up in the book.
[13:03]And I kept them all they were totally on point.
[13:06]It was very eerie.
[13:07]So I don't have visions, but that made me feel like I had a little bit of, you
[13:10]know, interesting.
[13:12]In my spare time, I would like to be a Tara card reader.
[13:14]That would be so cool.
[13:15]Yeah.
[13:16]It's a really interesting tool for introspection.
[13:17]I know a lot of writers use Tara really.
[13:19]Really.
[13:20]Yeah.
[13:21]I'm like late to the party here.
[13:22]Yeah.
[13:23]To try it.
[13:24]The scene where a desk makes Clara dye her hair this, like, ungodly shade of red in order
[13:29]to perhaps attract suitors and go onto this new adventure she has in mind.
[13:34]And then she has to then be out in the world with this, like, perfect new identity.
[13:39]Yeah.
[13:41]I was like, maybe Caitlin will come with this shade of red to channel the hair dye
[13:48]job that you fit in her, but sort of funny last year when I, around the time I was
[13:52]getting my author photo done, I had gone to a salon and got my hair done.
[13:55]And I wasn't even thinking.
[13:56]And they're like, we want to take you a little more red.
[13:58]And I was like, sure.
[13:59]OK.
[14:00]And then in the author photo, I'm like, oh, wow, OK.
[14:02]This is sort of like Clara's.
[14:04]I feel a shift in who I am because I'm not a redhead.
[14:08]This feels like a different person.
[14:09]So yeah, I was really interested in exploring the ways that the ways, you know, we represent
[14:15]ourselves externally, how they do or don't match up with who we are internally.
[14:20]And in this case, Clara is not someone who goes around with bright red hair seeking attention.
[14:25]She would rather be more watchful and, you know, on the sidelines of things of deserving.
[14:31]And she feels like this hair just puts her in the middle of everyone, you know, attentions
[14:37]unwanted attentions.
[14:38]And let's talk a little about Lily who came from like this, you know, it girl type person
[14:44]in the art world and then has this very unpleasant experience and ends up sort of, you know,
[14:49]coming back home on her hands and knees and trying to find her way in the world.
[14:53]And the interview you had with her trying to get a job at the spa, it was like so real.
[14:59]Like I just could see the whole scene playing out and how far she had come and has
[15:04]she was like desperate for this job and yet I don't know.
[15:08]Tell me more about the scene.
[15:09]Yeah.
[15:10]So I like Lily worked at a casino spa in my summer, so it seems very real.
[15:16]So that's why if you told me then that I was going to write a novel partially inspired
[15:20]by my experiences working at a spa, I would have said you were totally insane.
[15:24]Everybody's coming.
[15:25]There we are.
[15:26]Yeah, exactly.
[15:28]It's all come back to me and it's totally been grist for the mill.
[15:31]So yeah, I worked at a casino spa in Atlantic City.
[15:34]My dad worked at casinos, my grandmother worked at casinos, you know, went back to work
[15:38]after raising six kids.
[15:39]So in a way it was just in my blood, it was what you did.
[15:43]And yeah, it was a really interesting environment.
[15:47]The spa was supposed to be this place that was really serene and calm and then outside
[15:51]the doors.
[15:52]You have the chaos of the casinos, not the colors and sounds and the craziness that comes
[15:57]with that.
[15:58]And there were these women like Clara and Des who would come to the spa and they would
[16:02]say, oh, please, let me read your palm or let me tell you your future and, you know, and
[16:08]then you let me back into the spa and let me use the Jacuzzi.
[16:10]It was so ridiculous, kind of thing that maybe could only happen in a way, I see, I don't
[16:16]know.
[16:17]And the theft, gentlemen too.
[16:18]Yeah, they would put samples of products in their purse, like if you had a tester bottle
[16:21]out in the open of, you know, some of them were expensive products, they would just swipe
[16:25]them.
[16:26]They would get their eyebrows waxed and then they would like scratch, scratch, scratch their
[16:30]eyebrows and say, oh, look what she did to me, she injured me, I can't pay for this.
[16:36]It was wild.
[16:37]I would love to have like a customer facing experience like that.
[16:40]I worked at Weight Watchers for a little while and like weighed people in and restock to
[16:44]the shelves and then I ended up being a leader at the meetings and this is like in another
[16:47]lifetime for me.
[16:49]But interacting with people, like especially at like a sensitive time or they're like weighing
[16:53]themselves.
[16:54]And then having to, you know, process payments for like the two point bars and everything.
[16:59]I don't know, it was eye opening, being just like customer facing in that way and seeing
[17:03]all the different types of, I always say that was the hardest job I ever had.
[17:07]You know, and customer service is so hard and people bring a lot of guilt and baggage
[17:11]to those situations.
[17:12]I mean Weight Watchers, I can imagine it would be very similar.
[17:15]And I feel like people don't really have respect for people in general who were like checking
[17:20]them out.
[17:21]Yeah.
[17:22]Yeah.
[17:24]I wish people would stop and be like, well, what does this person have going in?
[17:27]Yeah.
[17:28]You become invisible, right?
[17:29]Especially in a tourist town.
[17:30]It's everyone's bending over backwards to serve the customers who come there.
[17:35]But they're supposed to do so in a way that's totally invisible to those customers.
[17:38]Like you can't see that labor happening.
[17:39]Right.
[17:40]Interesting.
[17:41]Yeah.
[17:42]Well, I'm glad I'd do this now.
[17:43]I don't have to wait people and yeah, exactly.
[17:47]So in this chapter called James 4, you write, you are happy until you're not.
[17:52]What happens as quickly as someone's throwing a bucket of cold water over your head.
[17:56]So I was just wondering if you had a moment that you could think of that maybe you were
[17:59]really happy and then you had a bucket of cold water thrown over your head, maybe you
[18:04]could tap into that moment that you described.
[18:06]Yeah.
[18:07]And when I think about that character, she's describing a moment when the narrative she's
[18:13]telling about herself changes.
[18:17]You know, she had a very troubled childhood and then was adopted by her aunt and uncle
[18:22]who gave her this really nice life and she starts to tell herself that, oh, I don't deserve
[18:26]these good things or my old life is just going to come back and claim me.
[18:30]And this really damaging narrative seeps in and that can be really dangerous.
[18:34]The stories you start to tell about yourself and it can really affect your happiness.
[18:38]And it's so insidious.
[18:39]A much more blowstakes example, maybe in my life was, you know, you go to a writing workshop
[18:46]and you'd have your nice new story to share with people and you maybe would have experience
[18:51]for the people in the workshop weren't seeing what you were seeing and they would go around
[18:54]the table and keep criticism on your story.
[18:57]And so, you know, a sensitive person, that's a tough situation to be in.
[19:01]And I would leave those situations and be like, well, clearly I'm a failure, clearly I'm
[19:04]not meant to do this.
[19:05]And that was the narrative that would stick for a little while.
[19:08]So nothing quite as drastic as what happened to that character.
[19:13]But I do think in a lot of ways I wanted to use the book to explore the ways that the
[19:18]narratives we tell about ourselves can really impact our choices.
[19:23]And how did you bring yourself back for instance in those workshops and how did you regroup
[19:29]and say, you know what?
[19:30]No, I am a good writer and I'm going to keep doing this because I feel like this crisis
[19:34]of confidence is what separates people who end up getting published and people who don't
[19:38]and maybe the talent is equivalent, maybe it's not, but it's a determination and having
[19:43]to go forward and something inside you that like makes you keep doing it.
[19:46]So tell me about yours.
[19:48]Yeah, I think ultimately I'm standing for me for better, for worse, I'm a very stubborn person.
[19:54]So even when I would have those experiences where I was inclined to be susceptible to another
[20:00]narrative about myself, I would always try to write my course and say, okay, but this is
[20:04]what you want to do.
[20:06]You don't have to be successful at everything, every step of the way, everyone has fall
[20:11]backs in the rating world.
[20:12]I mean, a lot of writers' careers are much more full of rejection than they are of celebration
[20:16]and that's just the life and that's something you have to get used to.
[20:19]So, you know, the process of going through graduate school made me a lot better at handling
[20:24]those experiences.
[20:25]But yeah, I think as a writer, you really have to be prepared to pick yourself up time and
[20:29]again because not everyone else will do that for you.
[20:33]And so this is your debut novel.
[20:35]Very exciting that's coming out.
[20:37]Are you freaking out?
[20:38]Are you excited?
[20:39]Or is there something you're particularly looking forward to in the tour or anything?
[20:43]Yeah, it's a mix and that's, I never thought I would say that because I, you know,
[20:49]you look forward to publishing a novel if you want to be a writer for years and years.
[20:53]And there's something a little scary about putting yourself out there about putting your
[20:58]work out there, even though, you know, in this case, this is fully a work of fiction.
[21:02]It's not autobiographical in any sense, but yeah, it's a little scary, but mostly exciting.
[21:07]I mean, I am, like you said, I'm really excited for the launch at word and to come full circle.
[21:12]You know, I remember eating my lunch in the basement in my converse in jeans and being like,
[21:16]maybe one day I'll be back with a book.
[21:20]And so to see that happen, I was really rewarding.
[21:22]That's so awesome.
[21:23]I love it.
[21:24]You have any other books in the works or anything coming next or movies or tell me
[21:30]you, there must be what's next?
[21:31]What's going on?
[21:32]So I'm working on a new novel now.
[21:33]I've been working on it for about a year.
[21:36]It's still, though, in that very messy, undefined stage, so I don't want to say too much
[21:40]about it, but it's set in upstate New York at this isolated ballet school for talented
[21:47]teenage ballet dancers.
[21:48]I'm really interested in what happens to people in isolated, close-knit communities.
[21:53]I'm really interested in ambition, particularly female ambition.
[21:58]So this is a way to dig into all those themes.
[22:00]Ooh, I love that.
[22:01]Very cool.
[22:02]Thriller is still or not so much.
[22:04]Maybe some thriller elements, but yeah, it's still, it's a little early to know, I think.
[22:09]Well, that sounds awesome.
[22:10]Yeah.
[22:11]It's really fun research, getting to watch ballet clips on YouTube and learning all the
[22:15]dancing terms and how dancers break in their point shoes.
[22:18]So you should talk to, I had a former dancer on the podcast, her name's Sienna.
[22:24]And she wrote a whole book to dance and used to be a professional dancer.
[22:27]Oh, she got injured and stopped, but yeah, we could check that out for research.
[22:33]Any advice to aspiring authors?
[22:34]And you just gave some a minute ago about not giving up, but anything else, especially
[22:37]coming off your first novel.
[22:39]Yeah.
[22:40]I think when I taught writing, I used to tell my students this all the time, don't be afraid
[22:45]to make a mess, your first draft, be really forgiving of yourself, which, again, is something
[22:49]I have to remind myself of all the time, because that's a hard thing to put into practice,
[22:54]but just getting the habit of finishing something, not of making it perfect.
[22:59]And then once you have a full draft of your poem or your story or your essay, then you
[23:04]go back and shine it up and you can be a little more ruthless on yourself when you're editing,
[23:08]but just let yourself finish things.
[23:10]Yeah, that's my best of that.
[23:13]That's a great advice, not even for writing.
[23:16]That's just good life advice.
[23:17]Just get things done.
[23:18]It doesn't have to be perfect.
[23:20]Right.
[23:20]There's always this moment of translation where the beautiful part of everything in your
[23:23]head and the difference between what it actually is in the world, and you just have to forgive
[23:28]yourself when they don't match exactly.
[23:30]This is the difference between my first kid's birthday party and my last kid's birthday party.
[23:34]I have my aspirations for perfection and all the details, and now my last kid, make one
[23:42]phone call and do you have parties there?
[23:43]Can you do it?
[23:44]Yes, I want the full package.
[23:45]See you then.
[23:46]Bye.
[23:47]All right.
[23:48]But you know what?
[23:49]My fourth kid ends up being a lot happier because I'm not so smart.
[23:52]So, you live and learn.
[23:54]Anyway, well, thank you so much for coming on Mom's No Time to read books, and thanks
[23:57]for this fabulous book.
[23:59]Please see us, Caitlin Mullen.
[24:00]So, thank you so much, you guys.
[24:03]You've been listening to Mom's Don't Have Time to Read Books with Zippy Owens.
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