Brenda Janowitz, THE GRACE KELLY DRESS
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[1:22]I'm here today with Brenda Janowitz, who is the book's correspondent for Pop Sugar,
[1:26]and the author of six novels, including her latest, The Grace Kelly Dress.
[1:29]Her work has appeared in The New York Times, The Washington Post, Red Book, The New York Post,
[1:33]Publishers Weekly, and many other publications. The graduate of Cornell University
[1:37]in Hofstra Law School, Brenda worked as a lawyer and did a federal clerkship.
[1:41]She currently lives with her husband and sends online islet.
[1:44]Welcome Brenda, thanks for coming on mom's don't have time to read books.
[1:47]Thanks so much for having me. So I'm super excited to discuss The Grace Kelly Dress today,
[1:51]which by the way, I love this cover and I have such dress envy.
[1:55]How did you even pick this cover and this image? Do you have anything to do with it?
[1:59]Well, I wish I could say I had something to do with it because I happened to love this cover,
[2:03]but alas, no. It's really the brilliant art team at Graydon House, and I think they did a
[2:09]phenomenal job. I had talked with my editor and my agent about covers that I was obsessed with,
[2:13]that I loved. I created a whole Pinterest page. It's so cool.
[2:16]And yeah, one of the things we realized we really loved was when the title was really graphic
[2:21]and large, and so we knew we wanted that. But my editor pointed out, obviously, we need to see
[2:26]the dress. And since The Grace Kelly Dress refers to Grace Kelly's iconic wedding gown,
[2:32]we knew we wanted some sort of a replica. So this is actually the second draft of the cover,
[2:37]second or third, but it's definitely the second dress. And I really encourage them to
[2:43]use more details from Grace Kelly's dress, and so we got the comma ones in there and the buttons
[2:48]going down the back. So I think they did a phenomenal job. I'm really pleased with how it came out.
[2:53]You too. The first draft was gorgeous, also, though. I have to say.
[2:57]So tell listeners what The Grace Kelly Dress is about, and then how you came up with this idea
[3:02]for this book. Yeah, so The Grace Kelly Dress is about an heirloom wedding gown and three generations
[3:06]of women whose lives are sort of influenced by this dress and changed by the dress. And it takes
[3:12]place in three different timelines, which is something I've never done before. So in 2020,
[3:16]we see our modern bride, and she sort of under pressure from her mom to wear this heirloom gown.
[3:22]And in 1982, we see the bride's mother who's really excited about wearing the dress herself,
[3:27]and she's sort of gearing up to wear the dress and sort of make it her own. And since it's 1982,
[3:33]you know that means Princess Diana sleeves, of course. And then in a little twist, in 1958,
[3:39]we see the dress being made. And so we see the same stresses life and what she's going through
[3:43]as she creates this dress. So it's really a look at an heirloom item and three generations of women
[3:50]and sort of how things have changed throughout time. And what gave you the idea for this plot?
[3:56]Yeah, so when I'm thinking about books, I'm always thinking about sort of what I'm obsessed with
[4:00]and what I can't stop thinking about. So for this book, when I sat down to come up with an idea,
[4:06]I had a little brainstorming session with my agent and she said, what are you obsessed with?
[4:10]And since I've already written a book about weddings, we know I'm obsessed with weddings.
[4:15]And I'm obsessed with clothes and fashion and most specifically wedding dresses.
[4:21]So my agent actually found this story on the Today Show about a wedding dress that had passed down
[4:27]through eight generations. And we thought that was a great jumping off point for a story.
[4:31]Because I also love to do things with multiple generations. I love stories that are a woman, her mother,
[4:37]her grandmother, which I've done before. I think there's something so timeless about that idea,
[4:42]the different generations and how we change and how things for women have changed, etc. So I
[4:48]decided to work on this idea about a wedding dress. But as I was writing, in the back of my mind,
[4:54]I had Grace Kelly's iconic gown sort of in my mind because to me, that's the ultimate wedding dress.
[5:00]So when I did a first draft of a few chapters, I remember it had a different title at first.
[5:05]But I was describing Grace Kelly's dress. So my agent said, before we finish this proposal,
[5:10]let's give it a different title. So I said, how about the Grace Kelly dress? And she said,
[5:13]that's great. But why Grace Kelly? And I was like shocked that she didn't know that I was
[5:18]describing Grace Kelly's gown. I was like, come on, the comer fun, the buttons down the back,
[5:23]like you've got to know what dress this is. She was like, no, but I like it. And so we sort of leaned
[5:28]into that idea and it sort of took off from there. Wow. So then when do you, how do you come up with
[5:33]the different characters? Like, how do you, what's your process? Like, do you sit down and brainstorm
[5:39]or are there inspirational pieces from people you know, or like, how did you come up with these,
[5:45]especially these women? Yeah. So, you know, I had the idea about the wedding dress first
[5:49]and the multi-generational story. So then the question was, what kind of women would I be exploring,
[5:55]what kind of lives would I be exploring? So first I came up with a character of Rocky, who's
[5:59]our bride in 2020. And when I was coming up with Rocky, I was trying to do something a little
[6:04]different than I've done before. So our Rocky is a little tougher than characters. I've sort
[6:09]of described before. She has a different kind of job. She owns a startup. She works in video games
[6:15]like very different from me. I like to joke that all of my characters are a little bit of me
[6:20]because there's definitely an alternate reality where I have lots of tattoos because I'm fascinated
[6:25]with tattoos, but I can't commit like Rocky has committed to all her tattoos. So I don't have
[6:31]any, but in an alternate reality, I think I have a lot of tattoos. So there's a little of me in
[6:36]that, but there's also like a different version of me, if that makes sense. And then of course,
[6:41]you know, book six, it's a little less autobiographical than other books. Your first book,
[6:44]they say, is you. It's all about you. Every character is you, especially the main character.
[6:49]Once you're six books in, it's a little different. You're sort of doing different things,
[6:53]experimenting with different things. And for this book, I was really concentrating on my through lines
[6:59]and how the three generations are different, but the same. So I was trying to do something different.
[7:04]So the character sort of flowed from that from the plot and what I was trying to say.
[7:09]But a lot of it is just sort of coming up with the idea and then walking around with these
[7:13]characters. And what I mean by that is when I come up with Rocky, I sort of think about her all day.
[7:18]So as I go to CVS that morning, I would Rocky react to this. And as I, you know, I'm waiting in
[7:25]line to pick my kids up from school. And there's, you know, a lot of jam of the cars. Well,
[7:28]how would Rocky respond? What would she do? And that's, you sort of like live with the characters.
[7:33]And that's how I develop them. I think character development is so important. And that's one of
[7:37]the mistakes beginning writers make. They don't spend enough time on their character studies. And
[7:41]for me, just living my life as a character study, I just sort of bring the characters along with me.
[7:47]So that's sort of how they're created. The plot informs a lot of it. The themes of the book
[7:51]inform a lot of it. But a lot of it's just living with them and sort of moving around with them
[7:56]and figuring out what these characters would do. So everything sort of informs the other part.
[8:00]The characters inform the plot and the theme. And they hopefully all come together.
[8:05]And what did your wedding dress look like? I have to ask. So my wedding dress, like I mentioned,
[8:11]I'm obsessed with Grace Kelly's wedding gown. So, you know, I had that in mind when I was
[8:16]when did you get married? I got married. Give us a, you know, that is so true.
[8:23]I love it. I got married in 2008. And one of the things Grace Kelly's wedding gown had sleeves.
[8:28]And I desperately wanted sleeves. But in 2008, you could not get sleeves. They didn't,
[8:33]that was not a thing. And I find it so funny because now it feels like designers are all saying,
[8:38]oh, people want sleeves. And I'm like, this is not, this is not new. People have always wanted sleeves.
[8:43]But in 2008, no sleeves. So my dress was strapless. But I had a little blarrow made. So it covered
[8:49]my shoulders for the service portion. But it was strapless. The bodice was lace. And in a little nod
[8:55]to Grace Kelly, I had a very delicate ribbon around the waist, not a camera bun, but sort of a nod to
[9:01]that. And it had buttons down the back. So when I say I'm obsessed, I really mean it. I absolutely
[9:10]love her dress. I think it's so timeless. There have been so many dresses that have been influenced
[9:14]by it. And it's amazing to me that a dress from so long ago, from 1956 can be so relevant today.
[9:21]What did you think of the Kate Mountain dress? Oh, I loved it. I thought it was spectacular.
[9:26]I loved it. But the truth is, I'm just a sucker for wedding dresses. There are so few that I don't
[9:30]like. I really love wedding dresses. There's something about that period of your life. And so
[9:37]even though I'm married 11 years now, it still makes me happy to think about wedding dresses.
[9:42]You know, there's something so joyful about it. I've been buying and reading bridal magazines
[9:46]my whole life. Like, I'm like the only non-bride. I feel like you're like, you know, once
[9:51]to read. And I used to, I wrote your modern brad for a little while. I was like, I'm like, I'm also,
[9:56]I like you. I'm obsessed with wedding dance. And luckily I've had two. So see.
[10:00]You know, I was joking, I'm divorced and remarried, so yeah, I love it.
[10:06]So towards the end of the book, Joni asks who's the middle generation woman and
[10:12]that asks her mother, will this be the biggest mistake of my life?
[10:15]The thing that defines me.
[10:17]And her mother answers this question by saying there's no such thing as the biggest mistake.
[10:21]There's only what you do and what you don't do.
[10:23]So I was just wondering, is this your general philosophy on decision making?
[10:28]Because I thought that was a great rule to live by.
[10:31]Thank you.
[10:33]I wish I could say that's how I live my life.
[10:35]I would say that's how I try to live my life.
[10:37]I wish I lived my life a little more like that.
[10:39]I take things very seriously and I'm very hard on myself and every new year's resolution
[10:44]is to sort of not be hard on myself and sort of take things a little more easy.
[10:49]And I do think in terms of big decisions, I do take them very seriously and I think it's
[10:55]the be all end all.
[10:56]Like for example, I was a lawyer, I don't practice anymore.
[10:59]I decided to give the writing thing a try.
[11:03]These big decisions do feel like life or death.
[11:06]But as I get older, I think what I'm realizing, nothing's really life or death because
[11:09]you can sort of come back from anything and times change and that's okay.
[11:14]So part of me, like the little girl me still feels like everything is the biggest decision
[11:19]of your life and this will be the thing that marks your life.
[11:22]And certainly there are things that do mark your life, like seriously traumatic events,
[11:27]do mark your life and they say some of these traumas you stay that age forever.
[11:31]So I mean, I think there are some things but in terms of decisions like career who
[11:37]you're going to marry, I don't think that those are necessarily the biggest mistakes of
[11:42]your life.
[11:43]I think you learn from every experience and I try to just take things a little less seriously.
[11:48]So I think that Joni's mother was a little wiser than I am and I think that's something
[11:53]I try to live by just to sort of make the day to day easier, which is not to say big decisions
[11:58]are not a big deal.
[11:59]It was obviously a big deal to leave the practice of law.
[12:03]It's a big deal to figure out who you're going to marry.
[12:05]But I think part of why I was single for such a long time was that I just put so much weight
[12:10]into it and to some extent things are a leap of faith and you need to sort of go with them.
[12:15]And tell me a little bit about your decision to leave law and your lawyer, clerkship like
[12:20]the whole nine years.
[12:21]What happened?
[12:22]Well, my whole life I wanted to be a lawyer but it was because I love to read and I loved
[12:27]to write.
[12:28]I was one of those children.
[12:29]You couldn't take a book out of my hand.
[12:30]I was always writing essays.
[12:32]When I was in law school, I tried to write a book.
[12:34]I was always just sort of thinking in terms of story.
[12:38]I think story and the stories we tell are really important.
[12:43]You know, when you're a Jewish girl from Long Island and you say to your parents,
[12:45]I'm going to be a writer, they're like, that's nice.
[12:48]If you like to read and write, become a lawyer, you know, you need a job.
[12:53]So my parents were always big on.
[12:54]You need to be able to support yourself.
[12:56]You need a job.
[12:57]You can't just wait for someone else.
[12:58]So I went to law school straight out of college and became a lawyer, worked at a big firm.
[13:04]The hours just killed me and just sort of the lifestyle was difficult.
[13:09]So I clerked, but it turns out when you work for a judge in New York, they work really
[13:13]tough hours also with the caseloads out of control.
[13:17]So I tried to make being a lawyer work, but I was really just one of those really unhappy
[13:20]lawyers.
[13:21]And around my 30th birthday, I remember my best friend from college, Sean said, you
[13:26]know, enough of this saying, you're going to write a book, now you're actually going
[13:29]to do it.
[13:30]So she got my friends together.
[13:31]They sent me to a writing class, Gotham Writers Workshop.
[13:35]And every Tuesday night I went to this writing class and I actually took writing seriously
[13:39]and I said, OK, I'm going to give this a shot.
[13:41]And that's where I started working on my first novel.
[13:44]And at the time, I remember I said, OK, I'm just going to do this for fun.
[13:48]It's just going to be one of those life accomplishments.
[13:50]Like someone had said to me, finishing a book is an accomplishment just in of itself.
[13:55]So I like that.
[13:56]I said, OK, I'm just going to finish this book.
[13:58]So I did it.
[13:59]But then, you know, being a type A person once I finished it, I was like, I should now
[14:02]get this published.
[14:04]I went, I got an agent and sort of the rest history from there.
[14:09]And I've been writing, I guess my first novel came out in 2007, two weeks after I met
[14:14]my husband.
[14:15]And I've been writing ever since.
[14:17]That's amazing.
[14:18]Yeah, so does it get easier?
[14:20]The more, you know, we do stuffs who couldn't book it easier or is it the same?
[14:25]I wish I could say yes, but no, it feels like every book is starting over again.
[14:30]It feels like each book should be easier because they all build on each other, right?
[14:35]Every novel you've sort of like learned so much that you come from a different place.
[14:39]So it feels like it should be easier, but it's not.
[14:41]Every time it feels like you're at the base of a mountain once again.
[14:45]And sometimes I come to a book and I'm sort of thinking like, I have no idea how to do this.
[14:51]Even though you've done it before, it feels like you don't know how to do it.
[14:54]You've never done it before and you'll never do it again.
[14:56]Of course you do, but it sort of feels that way.
[15:00]So it doesn't get easier.
[15:01]Parts of it get easier.
[15:03]Like I would say the promotion and marketing, that stuff you learn more.
[15:07]So that part gets a little easier only because you know what's coming.
[15:11]And you know the right questions to ask, you know, my first book, I was like, oh, we have
[15:15]to do an event.
[15:16]We have to have a party.
[15:17]We have to do this.
[15:18]Now, you know, I'm a married woman, two kids.
[15:21]I live dramatically different life than when my first book came out and what's important
[15:25]is different and how I sort of play the publishing game is a little different.
[15:29]It says, I mean, no party this time.
[15:30]Oh, then we have to play a party.
[15:31]No, definitely a party.
[15:32]Definitely a party.
[15:33]But it'll be a smaller party.
[15:34]Right.
[15:35]Yeah.
[15:36]You know, I think with this book, what I'm trying to do is just enjoy it a little more.
[15:39]You know, I was on the phone with my mother the other day and I said, we were talking
[15:43]about something about the book process and I said something to the effect of, you know,
[15:47]but all my friends have books out because at this point I know a lot of novelist.
[15:52]And she was like, hold up, back up.
[15:54]Not everyone writes a book and gets it published.
[15:56]She's like, you're living in this little bubble, but you need to appreciate the accomplishment.
[16:01]So I think this time around, I'm going to try to have more fun with it and appreciate
[16:05]it and enjoy it a little more because not everyone writes a book, even though sometimes
[16:09]it feels like it.
[16:10]That's true.
[16:11]Yeah.
[16:12]No, you should feel good about it.
[16:13]I mean, it's a great book.
[16:14]I mean, if it was your only book, do you think, and I read this essay you wrote, I think
[16:19]in red book about having two sons and how you wanted a daughter, but then you gave
[16:23]birth at 31 weeks and you're stopped caring about the gender and just wanted, you just
[16:29]like we're rooting for this survival and the trauma and I'm making light of this which
[16:33]I shouldn't.
[16:34]No, you can make light of it because you're so bad.
[16:36]No.
[16:37]I mean, a lot of people have been through very scary processes with having kids like
[16:42]you and then you were still saying like, but you love all the dress stuff and like what
[16:46]you're saying to the fact is, do you feel like in a way being able to write about girls
[16:51]all the time, like feeds, you know, scratches that itch said to speak, like I love that
[16:56]question because yeah, I think it does.
[16:58]You know, I always thought I would have two girls.
[17:01]I'm such a girly girl.
[17:02]I just sort of took it for granted.
[17:03]Of course, I would have daughters.
[17:05]So now I have two sons and like you mentioned, my second son was 31 weeks and it was very
[17:11]touch and go.
[17:12]He's eight years old and he's perfectly fine now.
[17:14]So it's okay to make a little light of it, but I get what you're saying.
[17:18]You know, it's funny when I think about it.
[17:20]I think about how everyone just makes it like it's no big deal to have babies and it's
[17:24]so incredibly hard.
[17:26]And it's so incredibly hard to give birth and all these things are just so tough, but everyone
[17:30]does it.
[17:31]So we're just sort of like, oh, whatever.
[17:32]He's fine now.
[17:34]But yeah, it was traumatic.
[17:35]It put things in perspective for me because it made me realize the most important thing
[17:39]is, I mean, it's so cliche, but it's true.
[17:42]The most important thing is that your kids are healthy, right?
[17:45]So it put things in perspective, but yeah, I get to write books about wedding dresses.
[17:48]So it definitely sort of scratches that itch for me.
[17:50]You know, I got to research wedding dresses and gown construction.
[17:54]And at one point, I was speaking to a wedding dress designer about just different details
[17:59]about how a dress comes together.
[18:01]And I did a lot of research in terms of Grace Kelly's dress, that actual dress itself.
[18:06]And that was so much fun and so fascinating.
[18:09]So yeah, I definitely get something out of that, but I also have two nieces.
[18:12]So that helps too.
[18:15]And I wanted to talk about your recent modern love essay, which was so exciting.
[18:18]I was like, so cheering for you for the sidelines because you were like, anyway, it was
[18:23]fantastic.
[18:24]And let me get the title, right?
[18:26]He's never going to put away that shirt right about your husband and how he left the shirt
[18:30]like on the console table and your upstairs hallway and like that you walked by a dozen
[18:34]times.
[18:35]And yes, he never picked it up and you never decided to make it like a standoff, like, I'm
[18:39]just going to wait and see.
[18:40]Will he ever pick it up?
[18:42]I want to know, first of all, that's hilarious.
[18:44]Second of all, what made you think this would be right for modern love?
[18:47]Like, how did you know this was a modern love feast?
[18:49]Like, oh, well, that's a very simple answer.
[18:52]So when this was happening, first in my defense, I thought he would put it away in like
[18:56]a week and we'd have a laugh over it.
[18:58]I didn't realize he'd leave it out quite so long almost a year.
[19:01]I mean, I thought it would just be like a few days and eventually he would see it because
[19:06]where this table was as you exited our bedroom, it was sort of like in your way.
[19:11]there was no way you couldn't see the shirt.
[19:13]So it amazed me that he never noticed it was there and thought maybe I should put this
[19:17]back in my closet.
[19:18]But anyway, so it became sort of like a story that I constantly told people.
[19:24]So I'd go out for lunch with friends and they'd complain about their husband.
[19:26]I'd say, oh, well, did I tell you about the shirt?
[19:29]And you know, it became a running thing with friends.
[19:32]It was to the point one of my girlfriends when I would meet her for lunch.
[19:35]She'd say, you know, how's Doug?
[19:37]How are the kids?
[19:38]How's the shirt?
[19:39]He was like, the shirt became like a person in my life.
[19:42]So I was always telling people it became this story.
[19:44]I was constantly telling friends.
[19:46]So I was having coffee with an novelist Laura Dave and you know, at the point I told
[19:52]her this story, the shirt might have been put away.
[19:54]I don't even remember because I had been telling the story for so long.
[19:57]So she started telling me something about married life.
[20:00]and she had a baby and we were just sort of talking about how life changes because I've
[20:06]known her since before we were both married and had kids. And we were just talking about
[20:09]how your life dramatically changes. And I said, well, did I tell you about the shirt? So I
[20:13]tell her the whole story and she looks me dead in the eye and says, that's your modern love.
[20:19]And I was like, Lord, no, you're crazy. But when Lord Dave gives you writing advice,
[20:23]you should listen because she's amazing. So, you know, I went home from that coffee
[20:28]and I sort of thought about it and I started writing it. And it just, it seemed so silly to me.
[20:35]And it was also sort of embarrassing that I had sort of done this and let it sit out for so long,
[20:40]and I was so resentful. But Susan Shapiro, who teaches this class.
[20:44]Awesome. Yeah, she was on my podcast.
[20:46]She's amazing. She teaches this amazing class on nonfiction. She always says,
[20:50]your first thing, it has to be a humiliation essay to which I say all of my essays or
[20:55]humiliation essays. But this one in particular is humiliating to me because I was sort of so petty
[21:01]about it. But the more I sort of worked on this essay, I said, Oh wait, I think I have something
[21:06]here. And of course, Laura, telling you to do something, it means you should do it. So I worked
[21:11]on this essay, but then it sat on my desktop for a while. And I was at a book Expo Party last
[21:16]spring and I got to meet Elizabeth Gilbert. And I told her that fiction was my thing. I wasn't
[21:21]really as good as not at nonfiction. And she said, that's ridiculous. Of course, you can do both.
[21:26]And after that, I finished editing the piece. I submitted it and it was accepted.
[21:30]Oh, my goodness. Yeah. I mean, I don't know. So I can't take the credit. It's really Laura's
[21:34]credit because I didn't think it was a modern love piece. I thought it was a funny story. And
[21:38]she sort of put the idea in my head. And I ran with it. That's awesome.
[21:41]Yeah. So books corresponded for pop sugar. You come up with these lists every season.
[21:47]22 books, 36 books. How do you books? And how do you pick them? People are always asking,
[21:54]how do you pick the books for your podcast? Like, how do you pick the books?
[21:57]Gosh, it's really hard, isn't it? You know, when I first started the list, I at that point,
[22:03]it was before the dinner party came out and I was trying to get more buy lines.
[22:07]So my friend, Alyssa Friedland, who I think has also been on your podcast,
[22:12]she had published something with pop sugar and I was on the phone with her and she said,
[22:16]anything I can do for you ever, let me know. And I said, Oh, I'm dying for a buy line at
[22:21]pop sugar. Could you introduce me to your editor? So she's so lovely. Of course, she immediately
[22:26]emailed both of us. And I did, I think it was like a nineties nostalgia piece. So I was really
[22:31]excited to have the buy line. It was like a fun silly piece. A few weeks later, the editor wrote to
[22:35]me and she said, why don't, you know, you're an author. Why don't you do a list of the books you're
[22:39]most looking forward to this summer? So I said, Oh, I could do that with my eyes closed because I'm
[22:43]looking forward to so much. The summer season's always so rich. I put that list together. And
[22:48]in like, I remember it was like, I put it together so quickly because there were so many things
[22:52]I was dying to read. And it got shared so many times that she came back. She's like, let's do it
[22:58]again. And so it just sort of went from there at a certain point, publicist started sending me
[23:03]books in galley form. So the list then became sort of my favorite books. I would read a ton of
[23:08]books and then sort of organize them. Now I'm getting 10 to 20 books a day on my doorstep.
[23:13]And it's really hard to figure out what to pick. So the list is sort of morphed yet again
[23:19]because I feel a responsibility to have a really diverse group of books. So I try to have well
[23:25]established authors on their debut authors on there. I feel like there's a responsibility to have
[23:29]the books that everyone wants to read. There's always books that are really buzzy. I think people
[23:33]expect to see those, but they also like to see diamonds in the rough. So I'm trying to find debut
[23:38]novelist or novelist, maybe no one's really read before who haven't gotten their due. Then
[23:43]diversity in terms of the types of authors, the types of stories that are being told. So I try to
[23:47]have a mix of everything. It's very heavily women's fiction, but I try to put a little memoir,
[23:53]a little young adult. I figure most people aren't going to read 30 books over the summer.
[23:58]They'll sort of cherry pick from my list. So I try to make it that they can cherry pick a few
[24:02]different types. It's not all the same thing. But you know, it's challenging each time it's
[24:07]really challenging. Wow. Yeah. So cool. It's hard. It's hard. And then you put your own,
[24:13]can you like slide in your own book onto the list? Yes. I do. That was the first things I asked
[24:18]my editor. I said, oh, this is so uncomfortable. I have a book coming out. Do you think I could put it
[24:22]on the list? Of course you should put it on the list. So I do and it's always kind of funny because
[24:27]it's now it's the best books of summer, the best books of spring. So I'm working on the best
[24:31]books of spring and I have a feeling the grace Kelly doesn't mean I'm there. It's kind of funny.
[24:37]But yeah, it's about it would be dishonest to not include my book.
[24:41]Of course you have to do it. For all the shameless self-promotion authors are required to do
[24:46]to market their books. This is like the least of it. Of course you have to put it on.
[24:50]You know, it's so funny. You mentioned that because I just did a post on Instagram this morning
[24:54]as I was about to walk in to meet you about the shameless self-promotion because I'm two months
[24:59]out from the book coming out. And this is the time where most authors do a post and they say,
[25:02]okay, I'm sorry. I have to talk about myself. I'm so sorry. Forgive me. You can mute me if you
[25:08]want. And I said, this time around, I'm not going to do that because, you know, I've been writing
[25:13]professionally since 2007 and somehow it became 2020. So that's a really long time. I just, I don't
[25:22]want to apologize anymore for what I do and what is sort of required of me. Part of the job is
[25:28]the self-promotion and sort of putting yourself out there. And it always makes me laugh on
[25:32]front and say, oh, were you in my hometown? How come I didn't know about it? So I mean, to some
[25:37]extent, you do need to get the word out. You do need to let people know. But also it's part of why
[25:41]you're out there, right? I mean, I wrote a book. I'm proud of it. So I'm going to try to apologize
[25:47]a little less this time around and just sort of say, this is this is what I didn't. That's okay.
[25:52]I love that. Yeah. So I'm going to try it. Well, I think it makes it actually, I don't know,
[25:58]as a reader of someone saying, I'm sorry for this, like, I don't know. I've seen those posts.
[26:04]I've seen a lot of those posts. Yeah. Like, you know, here I go, blah, blah, blah, right, you know,
[26:09]right, shameless flag, whatever. And sometimes I say right. Yeah. But I feel like I'm much more
[26:15]energized by reading posts about somebody saying like, look at my book in this window, how cool is
[26:21]this? Because then you're rooting for them, right? I love that. I mean, I feel like I'm like,
[26:25]that's so cool. Or like, now, like, let me follow, like, I like to follow and people sort of
[26:30]success in their journeys. Like, I think that's what Instagram is good at and people's mailing
[26:34]less and all the rest of it. Right. You know, like, I agree with that. See where they go. Like,
[26:38]I don't know. If it's true, I don't know. I'm rambling. I feel like if it's a necessary people,
[26:44]it is. It is because people want that content. They want that. So just like put it out there. I
[26:49]Yeah. But it's also, I mean, you're expected from your publisher to do all of these things, right?
[26:53]To some extent, they put out so many books. They need you to be a partner in it and to really push
[26:58]your book and yourself and your platform. Maybe I have to take back what I just said because
[27:03]a lot of people are very shy and it doesn't come naturally. I know. They don't, they really
[27:08]grudge having to do that because yeah, just because you're writing a book doesn't mean you
[27:12]necessarily want to be a public figure at all. I mean, think about all the pointers in the past,
[27:16]in the old days. Like, yes. Like, JD sound like he's never like, whatever. You know, I mean, like,
[27:21]that's such a good. So anyway, no, I like that. But it's a, it's a, obviously a struggle.
[27:27]Yeah. Luckily, I'm not shy. Right. But you know what? I am humble. And so it is hard to sort of
[27:32]be like, read this. This is amazing. Like, that's like, it's always tricky when I have to write up
[27:37]my own book for pop sugar and say nice things about it. Well, that's a uniquely bizarre thing.
[27:41]Right. That's a tricky thing. But even when you meet people, you know, speaking to someone
[27:45]last night and I was telling her about the book. And she said, that sounds incredible. And I was
[27:48]like, oh, it's okay. You always feel like you have to be like, I don't know. Yeah. That's true.
[27:53]It was like that thing. People were talking about this year or two ago when women would post
[27:58]their essays on social media. They would say, I wrote a thing. Instead of just saying, you know,
[28:02]I wrote this essay about XYZ, they would sort of downplay it by saying, I wrote a thing, quote,
[28:08]unquote, a thing. Like, it's not important. So when my modern love came out, I was really careful
[28:12]not to do that. And I was really careful to just be honest and be like, I'm humbled and thrilled.
[28:17]And this is something I've been trying to get for years. And, you know, just sort of be on more
[28:22]honest about it and not do that fake. Like, I wrote a thing. Even though I did write a thing,
[28:28]you know what I mean. So what are you working on now? Anything? Another book?
[28:32]Yeah. You know, the tricky thing is it's funny. When you start promoting your book, that means
[28:36]it's completely done. And so if you didn't work on the next thing, you'd get into a lot of trouble.
[28:40]So I am working on my next book, which is really exciting. And it's funny, you know, you talk
[28:45]about the Grace Kelly dress, but my head is sort of in this other world with these other characters
[28:49]who I'm developing. So I like the idea from the Grace Kelly dress, important of sort of talking
[28:55]about an heirloom item. Because even though I think people are important not things, we still do
[29:01]attach meaning to certain things like a wedding dress. Like, you know, today I'm wearing my
[29:05]grandmother's ring. It's really important to me because it belonged to my grandmother.
[29:09]It's also very cool. It's like a star with a hole in the middle. Very, I mean, it's super cool.
[29:15]She was very fast forward my grandmother. So, you know, it's funny, I always tell my kids,
[29:21]people are important not things, things can be replaced. But when it comes to these heirlooms,
[29:26]there is something special about them and there is something that feels irreplaceable about them.
[29:30]So I'm writing about another heirloom item and another family, although I will say I'm not doing
[29:34]the historical timelines because there was so much research involved. I give so much credit to
[29:40]all of the people that I know who write historical fiction. It felt like every sentence needed
[29:45]to be researched. When I was working in 1982, I wanted a character to wear a swatch watch.
[29:50]And then I thought to myself, oh, wait, when did those come out? But no, they came out in like
[29:54]85, 86. There was no swatch watch. The person just checked a plain old regular watch.
[30:00]So I felt like every sentence needed to be researched,
[30:03]I needed to research the way people spoke,
[30:05]get their cadence of speech,
[30:07]and that's a really long time.
[30:08]And I think that a lot,
[30:10]I like to sort of just write by the seat of my pants
[30:12]and sort of see where it goes.
[30:14]So I'm doing more of a contemporary story this time,
[30:17]but there will be an heirloom item at its center.
[30:20]Excellent.
[30:21]Yeah, I'm excited.
[30:22]Thanks for asking.
[30:22]Do you have any advice to aspiring authors?
[30:25]Gosh, I have so much advice.
[30:28]But I think I'll start with what I think
[30:30]what I've learned most after writing six books
[30:32]is that writing is rewriting.
[30:34]And that's the God's honest truth.
[30:36]I mean, I know it's like a basic sort of tenet of writing,
[30:40]but it feels more true to me now
[30:42]because with the Grace Kelly dress,
[30:44]I edited this book more than I edited any other book.
[30:46]And I think that this book is my best book by far
[30:49]because of that.
[30:50]So there were the 1982 storyline at one point,
[30:53]I tore it out completely, ripped it apart and rewrote it.
[30:56]I'd say only like 20% of the original 1982 storyline
[31:00]remains in what you read now.
[31:01]So I did a ton of rewriting
[31:04]and really thinking about the story.
[31:06]And you know, when you're a writer,
[31:07]you always feel like, oh no, I wrote that.
[31:09]I can't delete it.
[31:10]And so I used to keep a document with deleted scenes.
[31:14]And I would say to myself, it's okay, you can delete it
[31:17]because you can always go back to it.
[31:18]But this time, I just sort of deleted even more.
[31:21]I sort of edited with abandon
[31:23]because it's always better the second time around
[31:26]because you know the characters better.
[31:28]You know your message better.
[31:29]You know what you're trying to say.
[31:31]So I'm much more free with editing and deleting.
[31:35]I also try to write a little rougher now
[31:37]knowing that half of it's gonna be gone anyway.
[31:40]So I try to sort of write a little more freely,
[31:43]knowing that everything will be fixed later.
[31:45]And it's okay to just tear out full chapters at a time.
[31:49]I think when you first start out, it's hard to do that.
[31:51]It feels like that empty page is so tough
[31:55]and it feels like you'll never fill it.
[31:56]So once you filled it, it's hard to get rid of it.
[32:00]You know, get rid of that progress.
[32:01]But it's really important to do that.
[32:04]Even with my essays, that's actually one of the greatest
[32:07]things I learned from Sushi Piero's class.
[32:09]Sometimes you would write an essay and she would say,
[32:11]oh no, that's not what it's about.
[32:12]This is what it's about.
[32:13]And you'd have to sort of start from scratch.
[32:15]And there were some things so,
[32:16]but that's only 1,000 words, right?
[32:18]But there's some things so refreshing about that.
[32:20]You just start fresh and you are clearer.
[32:23]So the next essay is so much better because of that.
[32:26]With a book it's harder, that's 300 pages.
[32:29]You know, 1,000 words, okay,
[32:30]maybe you can sort of cut it out.
[32:33]300 pages is tough.
[32:34]And sometimes you're cutting huge, huge parts and it hurts.
[32:39]But I think that's the most important thing.
[32:41]That's the process.
[32:43]It's hard, it's hard.
[32:45]I mean, I'm doing it as we speak and it's rough.
[32:48]It's rough.
[32:49]Yeah.
[32:50]Well, thank you so much for coming on mom's no time to read books.
[32:53]Thank you for having me.
[32:54]All of your amazing books and recommending so many books
[32:58]and things, you know?
[32:59]Thank you.
[33:00]Giving me ideas and
[33:02]for many other people which books are good to read
[33:04]and all the rest of it so well.
[33:06]Thank you.
[33:06]Thanks so much for having me.
[33:07]This is incredible.
[33:08]I don't know.
[33:09]Of course.
[33:10]You've been listening to moms don't have time to read books
[33:12]with Zibi Owens.
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[33:47]Thanks for listening.
[33:48]We could always email me at zibiatzibiowans.com.