Cécile David-Weill, PARENTS UNDER THE INFLUENCE
[0:08]Hi, I'm Zivi Owens and you're listening to the award-winning podcast.
[0:12]Moms don't have time to read books.
[0:14]Please sign up for my newsletter at ziviowens.com
[0:17]for updates on podcast guests and lots of live events.
[0:21]Today's episode has been sponsored by Tink.
[0:24]Lauren Passsell and her innovative PR company Tink are book obsessed and podcast obsessed.
[0:29]Tink specializes in getting authors on podcast tours.
[0:33]Forbes called it the, quote, the first podcast PR company for authors.
[0:36]This is like the coolest idea I have to say.
[0:38]Podcasting is a new world and pitching to podcasters like me, I guess, is an art.
[0:44]So Tink specializes in setting authors up for success to learn more.
[0:48]You can visit tinkmedia.com or subscribe to Lauren's podcast newsletter at podcastthenewsletter.com.
[0:56]So definitely check out Lauren. She's amazing.
[0:58]And for any authors out there, you should definitely check her out for getting your book
[1:03]onto fantastic podcasts like this one and so many other book podcasts out there.
[1:07]And all types of podcasts.
[1:08]I'm here today with Cecile David Weil, who is a French-American author born and based in New York.
[1:14]She's a mother of three and a grandmother of seven.
[1:16]She studied literature at La Sorbonne in Paris.
[1:19]She is the author of two novels in English called Crush Under the Names Cecile De La Bum and the suitors.
[1:25]She was a regular contributor to the French magazine Le Pois, Le Pois, Le Pois,
[1:29]a V-O-I-N-T, and a kidsly French, with a column entitled Letters from New York.
[1:34]Her latest book is Nonfiction, Part Memoir and Part Guide, called Parents Under the Influence,
[1:39]Words of Wisdom from a Former Bad Mother.
[1:42]So welcome Cecile. Thanks for coming in.
[1:43]Mom said, have time to read books.
[1:45]Thank you to me before having me.
[1:46]Of course, my pleasure.
[1:48]And I love this French accent of yours.
[1:49]I love it. I feel so exotic.
[1:52]Like, we're so having such a chic little, like, we're having tea or so, I don't know.
[1:56]It's a very kind of you.
[1:58]I'm a little sad, nevertheless, because I think I'm having a great American accent,
[2:04]and at least time I'm sad.
[2:06]I understand that I don't.
[2:08]I mean, it's great, regardless.
[2:11]So can you please tell listeners what parents under the influence is about?
[2:15]And the subtitle is Words of Wisdom from a Former Bad Mother,
[2:19]which I still find hard to believe and make your bad mothers.
[2:22]Well, in fact, it's Part Memoir and Part Guide.
[2:26]And the point of the book was to share my experience as a parent,
[2:31]and to have it cross-examined by the specialist,
[2:35]to which I talked during the very serious research I did for years.
[2:41]And I put all this in a very regular mum word.
[2:44]So the book is about the huge gap between the usual stuff
[2:50]we're told about parenting, which things like,
[2:54]all you need is love or trust your gut.
[2:58]And the reality of parenting, which I found out from my own experience
[3:02]is much more complicated, anyway, for me.
[3:05]Of course, love is totally indispensable, it's crucial,
[3:10]but it's not enough.
[3:12]You need also, as in any relationship, I think, guidelines,
[3:17]and advice and work, because love can hurt even if it's well-intended.
[3:23]As for the gut part, I thought, you know,
[3:26]I thought it was the expression of our love for our children,
[3:30]when I was thinking, trust your gut.
[3:32]But in fact, I found out that it is more the reproduction of our own bringing.
[3:38]And that's reproduction.
[3:42]So if we had amazing parents, which happens,
[3:46]it's a good thing, because we don't have any problems,
[3:49]we reproduce very good behaviors, we bond with our kids,
[3:53]we enjoy being with them, and we give them value, structure, everything.
[3:57]And then we don't need to read the book.
[4:00]But when we have...
[4:01]Don't say that, everyone.
[4:02]You should say that.
[4:03]Now you're telling people not to read your book.
[4:05]No, no, no.
[4:06]Well, it is rare to have absolutely amazing parents.
[4:10]But if you have more regular type parents that are not flawless,
[4:15]of course, the major part of people,
[4:19]chances are that you have suffered.
[4:21]I have suffered during my childhood,
[4:24]even if it's not in a really spectacular way or a major way.
[4:30]And that suffering still acts in us in me.
[4:36]And the wounded child is acting up and making us reproduce our childhood,
[4:42]even the very things that we thought and we really didn't want to do.
[4:48]And it is a very distressful thing to realize,
[4:53]because we would like to think of ourselves as parents who are parenting with free will.
[5:00]And I was familiar with the notions of unconscious mind.
[5:05]I mean, everybody is.
[5:07]We know that we all are shaped by our childhood,
[5:10]that we have unconscious mechanisms and pattern that impact our life.
[5:15]But we don't want, we don't think,
[5:18]and we don't want to think about the fact that they could interfere with our parenting,
[5:22]since it is for us the place where we are supposed to be the most mature.
[5:28]So it is super-disquieting.
[5:30]And when you say under the influence, what you really mean is we are under the influence
[5:35]of our parents, right?
[5:36]Go to our bed, right?
[5:37]That's part of it.
[5:38]Yeah.
[5:38]We're under the influence of the examples that they said,
[5:42]the way we think we're supposed to parent or what you were saying before,
[5:47]having a radically opposite approach to parenting because of the way they modeled behavior for us.
[5:53]Yes.
[5:54]And that's, we are, yes, we are totally molded by our childhood.
[6:00]And some things are really good, and it's way to transmit cultures, values that works,
[6:07]because we mimic our parents.
[6:09]And it's most often very fine.
[6:11]But when we do reproduce the behaviors that really made us suffer,
[6:17]then it becomes to be a problem.
[6:19]And I had a hint that maybe it could happen,
[6:22]because I knew about the thing about the unconscious mind.
[6:25]And I thought that the good idea would be to do the opposite of what was really
[6:31]a problem in my childhood.
[6:34]And in fact, I met many people who don't speak about that to their friends,
[6:39]but they vowed to themselves in a very solemn and deep way when they have children,
[6:45]they vowed to not do what they have suffered from.
[6:50]And they think, and it's, in fact, it's the only thing that they really think about,
[6:56]because we don't have a lot of ways of thinking about parenthood.
[7:00]We don't have many tools to think about it.
[7:04]So that's the only visual thing that we think.
[7:07]And I thought it was a good idea.
[7:11]And in fact, it turned out not to be.
[7:14]In fact, the very idea that we want to do the opposite
[7:19]is the sign that we are still very much under the spell of the suffering that we had.
[7:27]And that we are going to parent with us and this suffering in mind and not our children.
[7:36]And, you know, the funny thing is that, for instance, my parents were of the generation that
[7:42]really didn't get or know that children really need us in a very, very close way to be
[7:50]living with them and bond.
[7:53]And it was not that generation.
[7:55]They were very kind, but in a more distant, absent way.
[8:01]And they gave lots of good things and structures and values.
[8:05]But the bonding part was a little lacking.
[8:08]So I thought, okay, I'm going to do the opposite.
[8:11]I'm going to be very much with my kids.
[8:15]And I'm going to be all the time with my kids the most second be.
[8:18]And I thought it was great because what could be said against that idea?
[8:22]It's a great idea.
[8:24]The only thing is that I didn't know how to behave with my kids because I wasn't used to
[8:29]being with my parents.
[8:31]So I didn't know how to behave with my kids.
[8:33]And since I had lots of reasons to be nervous because I didn't find I was doing so well,
[8:40]I was nervous and I was not engaging in a very enjoyable way with them.
[8:46]And so in fact, I thought it was bored or they were bored.
[8:52]Anyway, we didn't really connect.
[8:55]And the time we spent was rarely a very good quality time.
[9:00]So they felt as lonely as if I wasn't there.
[9:05]And the paradox was I felt lonely during my childhood because that my parents weren't there.
[9:11]And my children felt lonely because I was too much there because I didn't know
[9:17]that I was not supposed to do the opposite but do better.
[9:21]And since I didn't know very much how to enjoy myself with them,
[9:27]I had to learn that and I had to maybe say less with them but do only enjoyable things
[9:35]and the usual stuff you're supposed to do with them.
[9:38]That's of course.
[9:39]But that would have been a revelation that I would like to have had beforehand.
[9:46]And that's what the book is about.
[9:48]The very idea is that making do mistakes are the ideas of parents who want to do well.
[9:56]That I find very unfair because it's not the bad
[10:00]and the bad mother in the way that we do it on purpose
[10:05]or we're bad persons or we couldn't care less.
[10:09]The bad parent I was was a parent who tried to hard
[10:14]without self-knowledge, without self-awareness
[10:18]and without tools to understand what was happening to me.
[10:22]Wow.
[10:23]So what made you wanna take all the time out of your life
[10:26]to turn this into a book and share it with everybody else?
[10:29]Well, you know, in fact, as I said,
[10:31]it was very caught up in my distress
[10:33]of not doing the right thing.
[10:35]I was, as every parents under the influence,
[10:39]I was very much doing things
[10:41]and regretting them afterwards, snapping at my kids,
[10:45]not being the way I wanted,
[10:48]not parenting the way I wanted to do.
[10:50]So I was really distressed and I was caught up in myself.
[10:55]And so much so that I didn't even look at my kids.
[11:00]I was, in fact, looking at myself being miserable
[11:04]and being not a good mother, but I was looking at them.
[11:08]And one day, and it was well into motherhood
[11:11]because my elder one was 14.
[11:13]So it was, you know, kind of late.
[11:17]I looked at my kid, I don't know why.
[11:18]Suddenly I saw them.
[11:20]I got out of myself and I saw them
[11:23]and I saw that the three of them were not happy,
[11:27]not thriving and there was a problem.
[11:31]So I thought, what did I do wrong?
[11:34]You know, when I started, I thought,
[11:36]I'm going to be a great mother.
[11:38]I wanted to be a great mother.
[11:40]I had the time, I had the energy
[11:42]and I had, you know, the benevolence.
[11:44]I had the goodwill, I had everything.
[11:47]But it turned out to be much more difficult.
[11:50]And I didn't want to address that thing at first
[11:54]because I didn't know how to.
[11:56]So I put it at the back of my head until I found out
[12:01]and I discovered that day that they were not doing well.
[12:05]So then I thought, I have to change,
[12:07]but I didn't have a clue what to do.
[12:11]And in fact, I started reading a lot of parenting books.
[12:15]I started going to see shrinks, psychiatrists,
[12:20]and doing a real, you know, a real study
[12:23]of what you're supposed to do.
[12:25]And all the people I went to see
[12:27]who have all this nice talk, don't worry and everything.
[12:30]I said, uh-uh-uh-uh.
[12:31]What do you mean when you said,
[12:33]what is it we're supposed to do in a real way?
[12:36]I want number of time.
[12:38]We have to say yes to our kids.
[12:40]So I want actual very concrete things and answers
[12:45]because all the kind stuff we're told is not helpful.
[12:51]So the thing I learned during my experience
[12:55]and the thing I learned during that research
[12:58]that really took me 10 years.
[13:01]And the fact that all that I learned
[13:03]made me turn things around
[13:05]and I really wasn't hopeful that much
[13:07]because I was late.
[13:09]And I thought, you know, if I did turn things around
[13:14]in my relation with my kids,
[13:16]that are really, I have a great relation with them now.
[13:20]And I don't think they have their, you know,
[13:24]their problems and their insecurities as everybody.
[13:27]But they are really interesting people.
[13:30]And I'd left to meet them if they weren't my children.
[13:34]So the fact that it worked, what they told me worked.
[13:38]And I thought, you know, I have to share this.
[13:41]And I'm probably not the only one
[13:44]who has the problem of trying to hard
[13:46]and being a bad mother because bad results,
[13:50]not a bad person, but bad results.
[13:53]And in fact, when I changed my behavior,
[13:58]the result came.
[14:01]So I thought, you know, everybody thinks,
[14:05]oh, it's impossible to do it right.
[14:07]It's impossible to be perfect.
[14:09]And I think it's not a, it's not even a good idea,
[14:13]even if it weren't possible
[14:15]because then the children would never want to leave us.
[14:17]So hopefully they have some things that are have against us.
[14:21]So they can go away and have their own life.
[14:25]But it is possible.
[14:27]And it is, you know, once you have the tools
[14:31]and you have the right set of mind,
[14:34]you can decide how you want to actually parent
[14:39]and there is not one way to parent.
[14:42]It's, you need to choose your way to parents,
[14:45]especially nowadays where families are really different.
[14:47]You have lots of sorts of family and lots of sorts
[14:51]of beliefs and ways that you want to raise your kids.
[14:55]But you need, you know,
[14:58]you need to have tools to know how to implement this.
[15:03]And you gave us the tools in here.
[15:04]Yes, that's what I'm doing.
[15:06]I have done it was also great, by the way,
[15:08]that at the end of the book,
[15:10]after you go in-depth into all the different topics
[15:13]that you have, like cheat sheets
[15:14]with like some of the most salient points all laid out.
[15:17]So in case you forget or you want to refer back,
[15:20]they're all right there.
[15:21]Yes, that was lovely.
[15:23]In fact, it's my son because, you know,
[15:25]I wrote this book as a grandmother
[15:28]and my children have children.
[15:30]So I had them parse T.C.Bake
[15:31]because some things I have forgotten.
[15:33]And my son told me, you know,
[15:37]many parents don't have time or energy
[15:40]to real your whole book, even if it is great.
[15:43]And so do that at the end,
[15:46]like the basic points,
[15:48]the what to do, what not to do,
[15:51]because it can be useful.
[15:53]And then they could go back to the book if they want.
[15:56]So good, good tip, son.
[16:00]But let's talk about your writing.
[16:01]Also, your novel, the suitors,
[16:03]which I was telling you earlier,
[16:05]I downloaded on my iPad.
[16:06]I think it was the first book I ever read on an iPad
[16:09]and possibly the last.
[16:10]And at one of the only ones,
[16:12]and anytime I only had an iPad in my purse,
[16:15]because I often like to read when I'm waiting for anything
[16:17]or whatever, I would read little bits and pieces.
[16:19]So it took me a very long time to read your book,
[16:21]but it stayed with me for so long,
[16:23]like a little friend in my purse or something.
[16:25]So I'm also really excited about the fact
[16:27]that you wrote that book.
[16:28]And it's so like when I,
[16:30]even just seeing the cover conjures up,
[16:33]the entire scene, like it was so real,
[16:35]all these people who descend on this beautiful home
[16:39]from France, actually, I don't know exactly where in France,
[16:42]but okay, I'll come for this weekend.
[16:44]And I don't know, it was a beautiful,
[16:46]very snippet of life type, time and place.
[16:49]I'm not saying this very well, but anyway.
[16:51]Thank you.
[16:52]Well, thank you very much.
[16:55]It is a, it's the story of a family house.
[16:59]Yes, that is set in a cup don't keep in the French Riviera.
[17:03]And in fact, it's the story of two sisters
[17:06]who don't want their parents to sell the family estate.
[17:08]That's right.
[17:09]So they have suitors, three possible rich suitors
[17:13]come each for one weekend to check them out
[17:17]and see if they could be possible contenders
[17:19]to marry and buy the family estate.
[17:22]And it's the social comedy,
[17:24]and I really had a lot of fun writing it,
[17:27]but also it was something important to me
[17:30]because it is a novel.
[17:33]And the, you know, the characters are made up,
[17:36]but the house isn't.
[17:38]And it is actually a house of my childhood.
[17:41]And it is a place that I wanted to portraits
[17:46]and to make it stay in something like book
[17:50]that can stay forever.
[17:52]Because it is such a way of living that is no longer anywhere.
[17:58]It's, you know, it's like a little downtown abbey
[18:01]in before the 2008 financial crisis
[18:06]and with the guests, the staff and the,
[18:11]the, all the menus and the recipes
[18:14]and all the, yeah, the rules of the house.
[18:18]And it is also book about conversation
[18:23]and also about being sisters
[18:25]and the love between two girls, you know.
[18:27]So it is also something that is close to my heart
[18:31]because it was kind of an homage to a way of living
[18:35]that is no longer, not even in this house
[18:39]that we still have in our family,
[18:40]but it's no longer that way.
[18:43]And it was also fun because it's about new money
[18:47]and that house is set in a bay
[18:50]where that family is the only French who stay in the bay
[18:53]because they have Russians and Saudis and Iraqis
[18:58]and Greek and, and they are surrounded by the new money.
[19:03]They are old money.
[19:05]So when they have mosquitoes, they just lit a candle
[19:08]whereas the others have a very expensive machines
[19:12]to burn mosquitoes in with a lot of lights
[19:15]and a lot of noise.
[19:16]And also with the new suitors,
[19:19]the suitors that are new money arriving in the house,
[19:22]it is, there is the, the, the Wall Street guy
[19:25]and there is the tech billionaire who loves yoga
[19:30]and food and so it is a, yeah, it is a book I like
[19:35]and I'm happy that you like it too.
[19:37]And you even wrote a guide book about New York things.
[19:39]You've noticed in New York in French,
[19:41]you have a number of books in French.
[19:42]Yes.
[19:43]Yes, I usually write novels except for those stories
[19:47]about New York that I wrote for the magazine Le Puan.
[19:51]And I put myself in the shoes of a newcomer
[19:54]which I was 15 years ago because I was just arrived
[19:58]in New York after being...
[20:00]or in here and spending my early childhood here.
[20:04]And it was the look on your that seems so amazingly exotic
[20:09]for us French.
[20:11]So that was one non-fiction thing.
[20:13]And otherwise it's only know how that I write usually.
[20:17]Are you working on anything new?
[20:18]Another novel or anything?
[20:19]Yes, I'm working on a novel right now.
[20:21]And I'm not, I don't really know what I'm doing as usually.
[20:26]It turns out at one point I hope,
[20:29]but so I'm not very good at talking about it
[20:32]because when I do actually talk about the book I'm writing,
[20:37]when it sounds good, and then when I write it,
[20:40]I think it's not as good as when I talked about it.
[20:43]And when in fact, when I talk about it,
[20:45]and it doesn't seem interesting,
[20:47]I think why on earth am I writing it?
[20:49]So I can't actually talk about a book I'm writing,
[20:53]but I think it is the way I make myself think
[20:58]about topics and put my ideas in my head.
[21:03]And I don't know if I would think at all
[21:06]if I wasn't writing.
[21:08]So it's important that I go on.
[21:12]Do you have any advice to aspiring authors?
[21:15]No, I wouldn't be that presumptuous.
[21:16]I only have advice about parenting.
[21:19]So let's hear it anyway, I'll take that.
[21:20]Because I turned it around and it works and it worked for me.
[21:25]But for the rest, no, I think writing is so difficult.
[21:30]And so lonely and so slow for me
[21:35]that yes, it is wonderful because it's amazing
[21:39]to have the luxury to actually sit in the quiet
[21:42]and ask yourself, where is it gonna choose?
[21:45]It seems like such a nice fashion way of living,
[21:50]but it is precious and I love it,
[21:53]but it's also terrible,
[21:56]terribly frustrating not to find the way to say things
[21:59]that you want to say.
[21:59]I'm sure you have sometimes the feeling.
[22:02]Yes, sometimes I can't even remember what words I'm sorry.
[22:06]If I can't even remember like microphone.
[22:08]What's that word?
[22:09]I don't.
[22:10]Yes, so yes.
[22:11]It is struggle.
[22:11]Yes.
[22:12]Well, thank you so much for coming on
[22:14]Mom's time to read books and sharing your,
[22:16]what you learned about.
[22:17]I'm sure you were not as bad a mom as you thought,
[22:20]but from everything that you learned
[22:21]and how you were able to turn your parenting around,
[22:25]thank you for letting the rest of us benefit
[22:26]from your experience.
[22:27]Thank you.
[22:28]Very kind and generous of you to do.
[22:29]Thank you very much.
[22:30]Thank you.
[22:31]You've been listening to Mom's time to have time
[22:33]to read books with Zibi Owens.
[22:35]Please make sure to sign up for my newsletter
[22:37]at zibiowens.com to get more updates about episodes like these
[22:41]and also lots of live events.
[22:43]Thanks to Lauren Passsell and her innovative PR company,
[22:46]Tink, for sponsoring today's episode,
[22:48]please check them out at tinkmedia.com.
[22:50]You can follow me on Instagram at momstonehavetimetoreadbooks.
[22:54]Thanks so much to Steve and Ryan at Texturesound
[22:57]for the Sound Editing.
[22:58]And thank you to Morningmoon Productions
[23:00]for providing this fantastic intro and out trim music.
[23:03]Thanks for listening.
[23:03]You could always email me at zibiatzibiowens.com.