Anne Bogel, DON'T OVERTHINK IT
[0:08]Hi, I'm Zibi Owens and you're listening to the award-winning podcast.
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[1:12]I'm here today with Anne Bogle who is the podcast host of What Should I Read Next and One Great Book.
[1:19]She's also the author of Reading People. I'd rather be reading and her latest book Don't Over Think It.
[1:25]She's also the creator of Blog Modern Mrs. Darcy and has been featured in Oh The Oprah Magazine,
[1:31]Real Simple, Bustle Refinery29, The Washington Post, and More. Her popular book lists and reading
[1:36]guides have established her as a taste maker among readers, authors, and publishers. She lives in
[1:40]Louisville, Kentucky with her husband and four children. Welcome Anne. Thanks for coming in,
[1:44]Mom. I'm starting to time to read books. Oh, it's my pleasure. Thanks for having me to talk about
[1:47]my favorite discussion topic. Which is I mean books and reading. Right before we started, I was
[1:54]talking about there's a scene in Don't Over Think It in this new book where she accidentally
[1:58]microwaves a melon instead of a spaghetti squash, which was amazing. So I thought maybe that was
[2:03]your favorite thing to talk about. You know, that's not a story I told all that much. Tell it now.
[2:10]Dinner party. I mean, everybody loves embarrassing stories. No, no, I don't mind it all. I mean,
[2:15]as far as embarrassing moments go, this one is really not that bad. But it had been a busy,
[2:21]busy Friday, every meeting had gone long. You know, people needed extra phone calls, you know,
[2:26]the usual. Exactly. I mean, I love them. And yet. Yeah. So we were having friends that we
[2:35]known for a while, but it never had into our home over for dinner. And there was vegetarian. And I
[2:39]had the menu all planned. And we were going to have spaghetti squash tacos. And I was really
[2:43]excited because- Which sounds amazing by the way. I've never had a sewing exercise. Well, I love
[2:48]Deb Perlman's blog, Smitten Kitchen, and her cookbooks too. And there's a spaghetti squash and black
[2:54]bean taco recipe in her first cookbook. And she says in her little essay introducing it,
[3:00]this sounds improbable, but hear me out. This is so good. And I took a chance and I tried them.
[3:04]They were amazing. So I was making a recipe that was easy, but I knew how to make that I made
[3:09]before. And I was excited because I was making it with my neighbor's beautiful home grown spaghetti
[3:14]squash. She'd grown them for the first time. She gave me the first one of the season. It was
[3:18]so pretty. I mean, it looks like one of those ones at the farmer's market that you pay three
[3:22]times as much for because it's so stink and gorgeous. So I pierced it with a fork like I do. And I
[3:28]put it in the microwave and I set the timer 15 minutes. And I did it again. And I did it again. And
[3:34]this is how it usually cooks. But I noticed that the puddle of water in the dish was getting bigger
[3:38]and bigger and bigger. And I finally thought something is not right here. So I pulled out my
[3:42]beautiful spaghetti squash and I cut into it. And I thought, wait a second. This is not it. This is not
[3:48]a spaghetti squash. This is some kind of fancy melon. And my neighbor has no clue. And she can't
[3:53]find out. I hope she doesn't listen to your podcast to be. She's a reader. I'm sure she does not.
[3:58]I'm sure she does. Jan, I love you. I love you. Thank you for giving me this great story for my book.
[4:03]And I mean, I was tired and I just wanted to get dinner on the table. And now we had nothing to eat
[4:10]for dinner. Our friends were coming too soon. My husband had already left to go pick up another
[4:14]child from someplace else because we have four. So everybody always has to be someplace. And I thought,
[4:19]oh, I hate everything. What is happening? What am I going to do? And I was just mad about it.
[4:26]And I finally realized like, hang on. Like I texted a friend and it's like, listen to what I just did.
[4:31]And she sent me back a message that was just like, you know, hysterical laughter. Like I can't
[4:36]believe you did that. That's ridiculous. And so I could like pull out of it and embrace the humor of
[4:40]the situation. And we had our friends over and hours after they arrived, we were like, hey, we got a
[4:46]funny story for you. So it was fine. What did you serve? We did the same thing. So I really thought
[4:51]about ordering pizza, which to be fair. Yeah, that was going to say what had been totally fine.
[4:55]But like darn it, I wanted those tacos. And there's a grocery store really close to us. And it was
[5:00]not that hard to just, I mean, it was so much easier than I thought. So you went and got another,
[5:04]yeah. I just went and got another. I'm so impressed. I'm so, I think I would have thrown the whole
[5:09]thing. It seemed like the easiest pivot. Wow. Yeah. But you know, it's fine. We had more appetizers
[5:15]than I originally intended because even though you're microwaving the spaghetti squash, it still
[5:19]takes a decent amount of time. And it was great. It was fine. But like the reason I told that story
[5:25]in the book is that's exactly the kind of thing that I could just get. You can spiral on that so
[5:34]easily. Like, oh, this is so frustrating. I don't need this today. I can't believe I'm the kind of
[5:38]person who did this. And I could really sink into what's the best way forward in this situation
[5:44]knowing I don't like any of the options because it was, it was going to go great according to
[5:49]plan. And now I'm spending extra time and effort on something I didn't want to because I did
[5:53]something foolish. And that, I mean, that can be a dangerous spiral. Yeah. So you're really
[6:00]crabby when your guests come in and you. Right. Right. Not because there's anything wrong. I mean,
[6:05]we could have had cheese and crackers and it would have been a great night. It would have been
[6:08]my attitude that ruined it. One of my favorite dinner parties. I went to my friendly carpenter.
[6:13]Actually, it was my first guest on this podcast. We went to her house for dinner with her boyfriend
[6:17]Elliot Ackerman also on my podcast. Anyway, they ordered in sushi. And she had both lettuce and a
[6:24]bottle of dressing. And then we had ice cream from the freezer. It was the simplest thing. We had
[6:28]the best time. She set her down here beautifully. And it was amazing. I love it. And she was just
[6:33]relaxed in a happy hostess. Anyway, that sounds great. The benefits of not overthinking things
[6:36]to talk about your topic of your of your book. This third book of yours. Why did you write this book?
[6:41]How come? Well, when I started writing, I thought that I would write the things I knew about
[6:47]and the stories that I had that I wanted to tell. But I've realized over the year that I
[6:52]write to figure out a certain topic or I write to figure out what I think. And this is a topic.
[6:59]I mean, as you know, as you've read, this is a topic that has mattered to me for a long time.
[7:04]And when I get together with my friends to talk about, I mean, you know, when you get glasses
[7:08]wine or cups of coffee and start talking about what's going on in life, this is what we think
[7:13]about. And it gives lots of us lots of problems. And I was really interested in digging into
[7:18]first of all, why in second of all, what can we do about it? Because I had this niggling feeling
[7:23]like there has to be a better way. And I had experienced implementing some like simple,
[7:28]simple strategies in my life, but some huge mindset shifts that have made an enormous difference.
[7:33]But so many people I talk to you seem to be like, oh, I'm a woman or I'm just, I'm a person
[7:38]who worries like that's just the way it is. And while some people are definitely more inclined to
[7:42]overthinking than others, there are things we can do about it. And I was, it seemed like a really
[7:47]important message to get out there. What are some of the biggest takeaways that at least did
[7:52]have helped you personally than us? Oh, for me, personally, realizing the strong tie between
[7:57]perfectionism and overthinking. I was completely blind to that before, even though I've described
[8:02]myself as a recovering perfectionist for a good long time now. But I, I wouldn't have characterized
[8:08]that behavior as overthinking. But once I could see it that way, it made it so much easier to
[8:14]break those patterns. And so now what happens when you have a decision? Like, you just make it,
[8:22]I mean, we're buying a house or reordering coffee. That's true. I know. Yeah. Well, I don't know. I
[8:26]don't know about you, but like, I feel like the big decisions in life, I'm good. Yeah. I don't,
[8:30]yes. Yeah. I know where to send my kid to school. I know like all these big things are relatively
[8:35]clear. And it's the smaller things. Like, what should we do in spring break? And how should I do with
[8:39]this coronavirus? And should I cancel this flight? And those are the things that I just like
[8:43]students do and students do. Is that the same for you? That's so interesting. Well, we,
[8:48]I have done a little more, I almost said, stewing 10 years ago, stewing, but recently more
[8:56]dedicated conscious. Sometimes time consuming thought about where to send a kid to school.
[9:01]The way I define overthinking it. Well, first of all, we're talking about repetitive, unhealthy
[9:06]thoughts that our, your brain is really busy at work, but you're not accomplishing anything.
[9:12]So it's an exhausting process. It makes you feel miserable. And nobody needs that. But
[9:19]it's not overthinking if you're giving it the amount of thought that you want to, like,
[9:23]maybe you enjoy researching 40 spring break destinations. That's totally fine. I don't, okay, either.
[9:29]But some people really love their like deep dive travel research and planning that's part of
[9:34]the process for them. And that's fine. It is not overthinking if you're giving it the amount of thought
[9:38]you want to. But my goal is to give decisions the amount of energy they deserve. And figuring
[9:45]out like which pair of jeans fits best. I mean, I, I do not want to spend energy on that.
[9:51]But I think we're facing big decisions. We, we're our better selves. We know it's important.
[9:57]We know we need to think about it smartly and we're careful.
[10:00]to do so. And it's not that nobody sinks into like a major episode of
[10:03]stewing over a big decision, but I think we're more careful about them.
[10:09]But little decisions sneak up on us. And before we know it, we spent 20
[10:13]minutes in the aisle at Barnes & Noble going, okay, I found my first two books
[10:18]that are on the three for two table. Now what am I going to get for the third?
[10:22]In pretty soon we're bouncing all over the store, like
[10:24]rethinking the entire decision. And you've got better things to do with your life
[10:28]with your 20 minutes than than that. In that decision, I really have learned
[10:33]like if I don't want to be spending my time thinking about this, if I'm going to
[10:35]regret this in an hour or tomorrow, just truly pick something and move on.
[10:41]Easier said than done. Oh, but it because that's so true. It does become easier
[10:44]with practice though. It's like a muscle, a u-string thing.
[10:47]And what about you have different things in the book about
[10:50]how to make decisions with what events to go to for friends, which I thought
[10:54]was interesting, because you could spend your whole life going to different
[10:57]things. I've, I know this might sound odd, but I have the
[11:01]thing about going to funerals. Anybody I knew, like I went to a funeral of
[11:05]the mother of a preschool classmate of mine who I haven't seen since I was
[11:09]three, but I was like, I don't know. I have to be there. I don't know why, but
[11:11]that's somehow important. You have a quote that you
[11:14]refer to like if you care be there, something like that.
[11:17]Tell me about how you make decisions about like which
[11:20]things to go to for other people. Yeah, well something that has changed my life
[11:26]is realizing that if you can identify, if there's a value underlying the
[11:30]question that you're the decision you're facing,
[11:33]it makes the decision so much easier to make. And that's so
[11:38]interesting that you say that about funerals, because I deeply regret not
[11:41]going to a certain funeral. I felt like I didn't know the person
[11:44]that well. So I was like, do I like really deserve to be there? Would that be
[11:49]weird? But I realized, I mean, sometimes by making a wrong decision,
[11:52]we realized how to live rightly in the future. So now one of my rules to live by
[11:57]is like I will err on the side of being there. But the little, my friend who
[12:03]said this to me, she calls it cheesy, but the little rhyme, I think of all the
[12:06]time is if you care, you'll be there if you don't, you won't. And of
[12:09]course, that's not universally true. I mean, we've had friends get married
[12:12]across the country the same weekend, and we care deeply about both,
[12:16]but you can't be in California, New York at the same time.
[12:18]But we had all gotten together for a unofficial college roommates reunion
[12:24]outside Chicago. And travel was not easy for anybody. Several of us had kids
[12:29]and diapers. People were missing important things at work that they
[12:32]maybe should really have been at. But we all made the effort to come
[12:36]together outside Chicago with our, you know, real lives, like
[12:42]wanting us at home. And she said, you know, like, I just want everybody to
[12:46]know that I know it's hard for you to be there. But I'm so glad we all are.
[12:49]It says a lot about how much you care about this relationship.
[12:53]But you can also apply that inversely to your decision making,
[12:57]instead of thinking like, oh, we're all here together to show us how much we care.
[13:01]You can think if I care, then my actions can reflect that. And just decide when I
[13:06]can, I will show up for big things in life. Like we have spent lots of
[13:11]effort and lots of money and lots of hassle to go to
[13:16]key events in the lives of people we love because we really value being
[13:20]together in person. Not saying that should be a value for everybody. But I
[13:23]know this is really important to me. And so now, if we can be there,
[13:27]we do, we err on the side of showing up. And that helps me make decisions.
[13:31]And it comes back to the perfectionism thing. Like knowing I'm going to get it
[13:34]wrong sometimes is something that I've learned to, I mean, mostly learned,
[13:40]mostly learned to accept, but deciding which way I want to go wrong if I do is
[13:45]really helpful. I also loved your book. I'd rather be reading
[13:49]which first of all, sometimes I like look at all your books and I'm like,
[13:52]you're like a version of me. Like I'm so crazy. Like everything you're writing
[13:58]and think, I'm like, oh my gosh, me too. Like it's crazy. So now it's so fun to be
[14:02]here. Like having conversation with somebody like the same, like,
[14:05]something's the same in like our minds or something.
[14:08]And I'm noticing your bookshelves. I'm like, oh, that's interesting.
[14:11]There's a lot of specific titles look a lot like the ones in my office at home.
[14:15]I bet. Yeah. Yeah. Coming out in your podcast,
[14:19]both podcasts are amazing. Oh, thank you. So from I'd rather be reading, let's talk
[14:24]about that for two seconds. Oh, yeah. Why would you rather be reading?
[14:27]Why'd you write that book? Well, I love books and reading. I think it's, I mean,
[14:30]it's my favorite introverted coping strategy. It's my favorite escape. It's
[14:34]my favorite intellectual stimulation. But also I find that there are so many
[14:40]readers who love books and reading. And yet don't feel like they connect.
[14:46]Again, in person in their three-dimensional lives with other readers
[14:50]about books. And I really wanted to celebrate the fact that while reading is
[14:52]something that we do alone is also something that we're doing in
[14:57]community, even though we can't necessarily see that community.
[15:00]And I really as much as I could through those essays wanted to make it
[15:03]visible and say, look, we are part of the same tribe that all shares this love,
[15:07]this common language, even if we're not sitting next to each other reading on the couch.
[15:11]So true. It's a way to, it's like a shortcut for understanding each other in a way,
[15:16]like which books do you like? What? I don't know. Yes. I love that about books and
[15:20]reading. I feel like when you connect over a good book, it's such a shortcut to
[15:25]discussing and connecting over the things that really matter in life.
[15:29]In a way that you can't do just to, I mean, Zibi, we wouldn't sit down and be like, well,
[15:33]you know, what kept you up last night? Or tell me, tell me what really matters to you.
[15:37]But when we're doing it through the lens of a good novel or an interesting nonfiction book,
[15:41]it's very easy to go to the heart of what matters. And I love how books make that possible.
[15:46]So true. I also am always saying like the right book at the right time can change your life.
[15:51]And it has changed my like, and somebody wrote me an email the other day. It was actually a
[15:56]publicist about a different book. But I had listened to an episode and she had recently lost
[16:00]her mother and listened to an episode. She's like, that book for me came at just the right time.
[16:05]And that's what I think is like, I don't know about you. I mean, as people who've dedicated
[16:09]her lives to getting books to people that were feeling the rewarding feeling of knowing that
[16:14]like you've helped usher a book into someone's life just when they needed it is amazing. Even
[16:18]if you didn't like, you can't write every book yourself. Right. Just being the messenger, almost.
[16:23]I'm a big believer in bookish serendipity. It's a real thing. And it happens all the time. And I
[16:29]think it's one of the privileges we hold in common because of what we do is helping put the right
[16:34]books in the hands of the right readers. Because that truly is life changing.
[16:37]I agree. Yeah. And you have four kids too. So let's talk for two seconds about that.
[16:41]Eight kids between us. How do you manage the craziness? Do you have like your favorite go-to
[16:46]thing that you do to like decompress aside from reading or is reading your go-to?
[16:52]I'm a runner as well, but I'm not as good a runner as I am a reader. I always say that I'm a
[16:57]really fast reader, but a really slow runner because apparently the universe needed things to stay
[17:02]in balance. Well, it helps that for my kids, my youngest is 10, which is a totally different life
[17:07]than when I still had four kids, but you know, they still were buckling their own car seat buckles.
[17:12]No, when they weren't or when they couldn't tie their own shoes or put on their own socks.
[17:17]I love my children, but I never loved putting on socks, you know, 14 times a day for their
[17:21]chubby little feet. So it's that is different. Like they can maintain their own selves and somehow
[17:27]it is good. 17, which I still can't believe. He just had a bright day. We do have a lot going on.
[17:34]I mean, there's definitely it feels like a circus sometimes, but of course there's no one I'd
[17:39]rather do it with. And oh, good gracious. We do have a lot of help. And we really try to simplify
[17:45]what we can because there's only so much mental energy to go around. And I really want to make
[17:50]sure I'm spending it on what really matters. When do you do all your work stuff? Is it always when
[17:56]the kids are in school? Do you do like when do you record your podcast? How often do you record
[18:01]your podcast? Like that's interesting because we've experimented with that a lot over the years.
[18:05]Our show's been going for a little over four years now. And I've experimented with all different
[18:11]kinds of times and days and batching and not batching to do that. This has changed as they've
[18:16]gotten older. I used to put in a solid work session from seven to nine or eight to 10 after they went
[18:20]to bed. But as 17 year old does not go to bed at eight o'clock at night. So I haven't been doing that
[18:26]for a while early in the morning. But then the school day is the core of my work. Do you ever have
[18:32]your kids sit in on your podcast? Oh, no. No. I mean, there's nothing wrong with that. But I don't
[18:38]know that they want to. And we, my podcast is different from yours and that we often talk to
[18:45]or listeners describe it as we talk to regular readers. I mean, people who could be your your
[18:51]mom, your friend, your grandma, your neighbor, your sister, your babysitter, assuming those people
[18:57]don't have shiny, Instagrammable jobs or work in the book industry. I mean, we talk to people who
[19:02]just love to read and don't necessarily have credentials. So it's really important that we make them
[19:09]feel comfortable and not like they're performing a lot of times when I get on a call with somebody,
[19:15]they'll say, oh my gosh, I'm so nervous. And I have to say, like, you, you know, you love books.
[19:20]You love to talk about books. Like this is going to be great. But to say, like, it's going to be
[19:24]fine. Oh, and also my kids like Heather notepads out and taking notes. I don't know that that would
[19:28]really put them at ease. Yeah. I've tried it a few times. But yeah, a smarter woman than I should
[19:35]not. What do they think? Well, I did it with my kids when we read this middle, we read this young adult
[19:41]like little grave-ish thing with my little guys because it was about a Disneyland type place. It's
[19:45]called Foreverland. Yeah. And every night for months, we read a chapter and I thought it would feel
[19:50]so rewarding to them to be there to meet the author. And my daughter, who's six, she was into it
[19:55]and she even remembered the quote that I had dog-eared that I forgot to mention. So my five-year-old son was
[20:00]Like, I don't remember it at all.
[20:01]I was like, oh my God.
[20:04]Then they started climbing up the shelves
[20:06]and I was like, okay, yeah.
[20:07]Pause.
[20:09]But I don't know.
[20:10]I was, you know, try to merge work in life
[20:13]and kids and everything, I don't know.
[20:15]Yeah, we, I think one of the keys to my sanity
[20:18]and also being able to do the work I did
[20:19]for so long was merging work and life.
[20:22]And as they've gotten older, that's happened less
[20:27]which I didn't really consciously set out to do.
[20:30]It's just worked out that way.
[20:32]How many books do you feel like you read a week?
[20:35]Hmm, maybe four?
[20:38]Four or five.
[20:39]Do you read at your desk or like,
[20:41]oh no, I read on the treadmill.
[20:45]I never read at my desk.
[20:46]I mean, I know some people who read like,
[20:49]at their computer screen so they can mark up files
[20:52]and I spend enough time at screens writing.
[20:54]I read a lot in bed, a lot on the couch.
[20:57]I have a bright yellow chair that I love
[21:00]and the treadmill and then audio books
[21:02]when I'm running or in the car from the laundry.
[21:05]treadmill.
[21:06]So you're holding it?
[21:06]I don't know that it's like the best for my neck
[21:08]because I have a treadmill desk and not like a big,
[21:10]I have a treadmill desk.
[21:12]Oh, you're one of those people.
[21:13]Well, I know, impressive.
[21:15]I know sometimes I'm like,
[21:16]I should just like be peddling here.
[21:18]I sit here.
[21:19]So like I should make this like, I don't know,
[21:21]like some sort of stationary bike
[21:24]that we're coming at like underneath my desk.
[21:26]Well, I mean, the treadmill desk often serves more
[21:30]as like a great place to stash things
[21:31]than a nice work surface to be clear,
[21:34]but it is nice to be able to do that sometimes,
[21:38]especially in the winter or when it's blazing a lot of help
[21:41]to be able to read and actually move my body.
[21:44]And do you walk or run on the treadmill?
[21:46]Well, I mean, specific is nice to you.
[21:48]It's a treadmill desk.
[21:50]Well, I'm not saying this is ideal,
[21:51]but my note is a treadmill desk.
[21:52]It maxes out at four miles an hour
[21:54]because it's not built for running.
[21:55]Okay, I've never actually been on.
[21:57]I wish it was because I've thought about switching
[21:59]so I can run inside when it's icy
[22:01]and listen to my audio books and that would be fine,
[22:03]but it only goes to four miles an hour.
[22:05]So it's a walking treadmill desk.
[22:07]I can read on the elliptical machine.
[22:08]Yeah, but I haven't tried the treadmill,
[22:10]but now I'm inspired.
[22:13]Well, the key is a nice device like a page anchor
[22:15]or like a built-in magazine stand
[22:18]that will hold your book open.
[22:20]It'll hold your book open for you.
[22:21]And you're not bouncing to that a page anchor.
[22:23]Page anchor.
[22:24]Yeah, they're beautiful, they're fun.
[22:26]You can Google it.
[22:26]I'm going to.
[22:27]Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's awesome.
[22:29]So that's also like such a clever way
[22:31]to fit an exercise, which I feel like is the first thing
[22:33]that falls off the list for me
[22:35]with like the reading and the writing and the looks
[22:36]and the gifts.
[22:37]Oh, I hear you.
[22:38]I hear you.
[22:39]And yet, I know.
[22:40]I mean, now more than ever,
[22:42]because you spend two years researching a book like,
[22:44]don't overthink it and you're acutely aware
[22:46]of what you're doing to sabotage yourself
[22:47]or set yourself up or success.
[22:49]But it's definitely my impulse to let the exercise fall
[22:53]to the side when I get really busy.
[22:56]And yet, if we are in a busy season
[22:58]or are feeling mentally frazzled,
[23:00]taking care of our body in that way
[23:01]is one of the best things we can do
[23:03]for our mental performance.
[23:04]I don't want it to be true.
[23:06]And yet, the research shows that it's definitely connected.
[23:10]Like, was good for the body, it's good for the brain.
[23:12]I know, it's true.
[23:13]I know.
[23:14]Just so hard to motivate.
[23:15]Oh my gosh, yes.
[23:16]I mean, this is the path talk I give myself a lot.
[23:19]And what about all your writing?
[23:21]You write so much.
[23:22]I mean, tell me more about that.
[23:24]Like, when do you do that or do you wait for inspiration
[23:27]like for each blog entry or like,
[23:28]how do you tell me about the writing?
[23:31]I really do.
[23:32]I write a lot, but I write in seasons
[23:33]because there's a big difference between writing,
[23:36]a blog post, writing a book list and writing a book.
[23:40]Those require different kinds of head spaces.
[23:44]I mean, I always carry a notebook
[23:46]and we'll make notes whenever I can
[23:48]or like sketch out an outline of a piece or a chapter.
[23:51]I'm an index card junkie.
[23:53]So I'm always carrying those and writing little snippets
[23:55]that I'll file away later.
[23:56]But I prefer to write in the morning when I can.
[24:00]When I can't, I feel like it takes me longer
[24:02]in the afternoon.
[24:03]I never, ever write between two and four PM
[24:05]because that is my mental dead time.
[24:08]That's for running email, the kinds of things
[24:11]that don't take a ton of mental energy
[24:13]but still need to get done.
[24:14]But my, I feel like the habits I choose
[24:18]if I were a hermit are different than the ones I choose
[24:20]when I have four kids staggering out the door
[24:23]to get to their schools that started different times
[24:25]in the morning.
[24:26]But I love to write first thing in the morning.
[24:28]Take a break to get everybody out the door
[24:29]and then get back to it before I move on
[24:31]with the rest of the day.
[24:33]Because like running, I need to do stuff to like manage
[24:36]the business and make sure the bills get paid
[24:40]and manage my team.
[24:42]And that's a different kind of thought.
[24:44]We're writing, I wanna be very focused.
[24:46]And tell me a little more about the business.
[24:48]I feel like I have to be conscious of time
[24:50]because I can't tell you any questions.
[24:52]But quickly, so you've turned this into a true business.
[24:55]I mean, you have a book club,
[24:57]you have membership levels you've been online like course.
[25:00]You have like all these different things
[25:02]that you've done to basically monetize this amazing content
[25:05]and like you have like hurts and Oreos
[25:07]and everybody advertising on your site.
[25:09]Like, this is amazing how she doing this.
[25:12]So how do you, when did you like decide
[25:16]that this was gonna be a full-on business
[25:18]not just like a something you enjoyed
[25:20]or did you start out saying,
[25:22]I wanna start a business around books and reading.
[25:24]Like when did it all?
[25:25]No, definitely not.
[25:26]And it took me a long time to get comfortable
[25:27]with using that B word.
[25:30]Cause I never saw it going quite that direction.
[25:33]But for a long time, I really shy away from like,
[25:36]I don't wanna be the boss.
[25:38]Like I don't wanna be the,
[25:40]like I'm the president of my company for my tax forms.
[25:43]And every time I have to write that word,
[25:45]cause tax eat isn't coming up.
[25:46]I just think, oh, like kill me now.
[25:48]This is so, yeah.
[25:49]I just don't like the sound of it.
[25:51]And yet that is very much what it is.
[25:53]And I'm so grateful to have an amazing team.
[25:55]And it is my job to be the boss of that and manage that.
[26:00]No, it's still first and foremost.
[26:02]It's something I love to do.
[26:04]I mean, I get to help people get more out of their reading lives.
[26:08]And I feel like when you get more out of your reading life,
[26:11]you cannot help but get more out of your life.
[26:13]Because that power that books has to focus you on what matters,
[26:17]to think about your own life in a new way,
[26:19]to show you new insights that really make a difference
[26:22]in your day to day experience.
[26:24]And I get to do that as my job.
[26:26]And that doesn't mean it's not work,
[26:27]but it's the best work I can think of.
[26:30]And I gotta take it seriously.
[26:32]You know, because it deserves that.
[26:35]Yeah.
[26:35]I just feel like there's so many opportunities
[26:37]of like, I get so excited about all the different things.
[26:41]And you could choose to do.
[26:43]And I don't know.
[26:44]Yes, I really relate to that.
[26:46]Some people like to focus on one thing and do it forever,
[26:48]but I really like the variety.
[26:51]So we do have the What Should I Read Next podcast.
[26:52]And we do have the Modern Mrs. Darcy blog.
[26:54]And we do have the book club.
[26:55]And I do write books about different topics.
[26:58]I visualize it as a Ferris wheel.
[27:00]Like I'm not doing all these things in depth at once.
[27:04]But the different parts of my literary world
[27:07]kind of take turns coming up to the top of the wheel
[27:10]so like get focused attention for a time
[27:13]before they rotate down and something else comes up
[27:15]for its turn.
[27:16]But that that variety keeps things interesting.
[27:19]And I love the possibility.
[27:20]I hear you.
[27:21]Like one of the guiding quotes for Modern Mrs. Darcy
[27:23]is I dwell in possibility from Emily Dickinson.
[27:26]I just love thinking about what could be,
[27:29]whether we're talking about the literary world
[27:31]or people's reading lives or people's lives.
[27:34]Hey, I agree.
[27:35]We'll have to like get together.
[27:37]That's going to be fun.
[27:38]I know that would be fun.
[27:39]So do you have another book project that you're already
[27:41]thinking about?
[27:42]I mean, I'm thinking about it.
[27:44]So I'm always thinking about it.
[27:46]Yeah.
[27:47]German.
[27:48]Is there really, I mean, I'm sure that every author approaches
[27:51]their work differently.
[27:52]And it's really interesting to hear on mom's
[27:54]don't have time to read books.
[27:55]How different authors approach their work.
[27:58]But at the beginning, I'm never quite sure
[28:00]what a project is.
[28:00]And then it slowly starts coming out of the fog.
[28:03]And you think, oh, this is what I'm writing about.
[28:06]So that's where I am right now.
[28:08]And I just want to ask you, what should you,
[28:10]what are you going to read next?
[28:12]Ooh, that's a great question.
[28:14]Well, we put out a summer reading guide every year,
[28:17]which means that in the winter and spring,
[28:20]I'm reading all the titles I'm most excited about.
[28:23]They're coming out between about like the middle of March.
[28:26]And we always say the 4th of July.
[28:28]But the past couple of years, there've
[28:30]been some releases that I can't wait to read coming out
[28:32]at the very end of the month.
[28:33]So I've fudged it and pushed it out.
[28:36]But that's what that's what I have going on right now.
[28:38]Although I found that if I don't mix it up
[28:40]with some backlist that I become a cranky reader.
[28:43]But it's all awesome reading all the time.
[28:46]Awesome, love it.
[28:47]And some old mysteries for balance.
[28:48]Do you have any advice for aspiring authors?
[28:52]Oh, yes.
[28:53]Put your button to chair.
[28:55]Because that's how it gets done.
[28:57]Or the treadmill desk, I guess.
[28:58]But honestly, honestly, for me,
[29:00]it's put your butt in the chair.
[29:02]But also, I really like to believe that good work
[29:08]will find its audience.
[29:10]But the first thing you need is the good work.
[29:13]That's inspiring.
[29:14]This is what I tell myself all the time.
[29:17]Yeah.
[29:19]Well, thank you so much for coming on mom's.
[29:20]Don't have time to read books.
[29:21]Oh, it's been my pleasure.
[29:22]Thanks for having me to talk about books and reading.
[29:24]Oh, my gosh.
[29:24]I could do this all day.
[29:27]You've been listening to mom's
[29:28]and have time to read books with Zibi Owens.
[29:30]Please make sure to sign up for my newsletter
[29:32]at zibiowans.com to get more updates about episodes like these
[29:36]and also lots of live events.
[29:38]To share a minder, go to Bliss Body Shop
[29:40]and enter code zibiowans15 and get yourself
[29:43]a new pair of leggings for 15% off.
[29:46]You can follow me on Instagram at mom's.
[29:48]Don't have time to read books.
[29:50]Thanks so much to Steve and Ryan at Texture Sound
[29:52]for the sound editing.
[29:54]And thank you to Morningmoon Productions
[29:55]for providing this fantastic intro and outro music.
[29:58]Thanks for listening.
[29:59]You can always get it.
[30:00]I'm Elmi at zibi at zibiowans.com.