Abby Sher, MISS YOU LOVE YOU HATE YOU BYE
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[1:12]I'm here today with Abby Schur who's a writer and performer whose work has appeared in the
[1:17]New York Times the Los Angeles Times, self-Jane L. Redbook and many other publications.
[1:22]Her essay from the Modern Love column of the New York Times was recently adapted for the TV
[1:27]series Modern Love. She is the author of five books, kissing snowflakes, all the ways the world can
[1:33]end, breaking free true stories of girls who escaped modern slavery, amen amen amen memoir of a girl
[1:40]who couldn't stop ring, and her latest novel Miss You Love You Hate You By. Abby has written and
[1:45]performed for the second city in Chicago, HBO, Nick Jr., NPR, and Upright Citizens Brigade.
[1:51]She currently hosts the monthly chuckle patch comedy show with Molly Reisner.
[1:55]She lives in New Jersey with her husband and three children.
[1:58]Welcome Abby, thanks for coming on mom's don't have time to read books.
[2:01]Thank you very much for having me. Miss You Love You Hate You By.
[2:05]Please tell us nerds what this book is about.
[2:08]Yes this book is about a 16-year-old girl named Hank short for Hannah Louise and her best friend Zoe
[2:15]who is self-destructing and Hank has to decide whether she can save her or if it's better to walk
[2:24]away. And what made you write this book? You know I've been I've been toying with not saying this
[2:32]but I didn't want to write this book. This was like the last thing I wanted to write but it kept
[2:37]them coming out and all my characters were kind of like skirting the issue of an eating disorder
[2:44]and self-destruction and then my daughter about a year ago came home one day and said I saw this
[2:52]thing on YouTube but people want to be skinny so they make themselves throw up and I just lost it
[3:00]and I was like those people there are a lot of holes. Let me think about how to say this and
[3:05]then I knew that I had to write this book because I think that there's been a lot of books about
[3:10]the process of going through a disorder or an addiction but not as many about being a friend
[3:17]watching it happen and not knowing what to do about it. I had a very close friend in high school who
[3:22]had an eating disorder and was hospitalized for it and I remember going to visit her in the hospital
[3:26]and doing everything I could and reading this just brought it all back because we were 16 at the
[3:30]time and I had not read any sort of fiction about anybody who had gone through that other than me
[3:37]and that was so long ago. So this particularly struck a chord with me which is why perhaps
[3:43]why I liked it even more than I might have otherwise. No that I wouldn't have. I didn't ever
[3:47]know what I mean. I mean I'm sorry. No no. So a lot of book centers on Zoe and this alternate
[3:53]persona she creates for herself on social media and it starts in the beginning where she has this new
[3:58]cat and she's just like I mean going all over and there's so many references to how many followers
[4:05]and oh look how many I got and she just is all in on social media and then this constant need
[4:11]for attention and approval and everything. Tell me about how you think that plays in and if there's
[4:17]any sort of comorbidity with social media addiction if you will and you think disorders really.
[4:24]Yeah I mean that's a hard question. A great question. There are not that many studies that I've
[4:30]read about whether social media addiction or persona's online really correspond to eating disorders.
[4:37]There was like a minor study then I think it was written about in 2018 about the propensity
[4:44]towards anxiety or depression after being really like heavily online. I think what struck a
[4:52]chord for me personally because when I was going through it it went we weren't into social media
[4:56]so not giving what my age too much but that was way before you know I beeper before I
[5:03]had a new resort. Did you really have a beeper? I did have a look. Oh yeah. It was fancy but I
[5:09]think that when you're online you can make up obviously whoever you are and whatever vacation you're
[5:16]taking and how wonderful your life is and so it's just like another way to avoid telling the truth
[5:22]to someone face to face and so as Zoey, as this character gets more and more approval online
[5:29]then she has less of an impetus to face the facts in person and it's a push pull because
[5:37]like she's sort of keeping it a secret but then she's also more and more revealing herself online
[5:43]to people and not many people online are gonna be like well you you look sick that's not very often
[5:49]the case now. And interestingly all the social media followers once Zoey goes into treatment
[5:56]which starts with you can tell at the beginning but so I'm not giving anything away but
[5:59]all the followers just disappear. Yeah and she tells thanks she's like you know what you were right
[6:03]those followers didn't follow me into this invasion facility. I mean just as quickly as they came
[6:09]they left and I think that's something that people don't talk about as much or think about as
[6:14]much like all this effort to those like your followers like do they really care now I mean what
[6:19]is it is it true anything or not yeah I mean anyway I wasn't even a question that was sort of
[6:26]a venting I don't know all of our followers out there don't disappear. So Zoey admits to Hank
[6:36]that she wishes she had called her out on the seating disorder later even though at the time she
[6:41]didn't really want it and it wasn't just eating disorder but Zoey has some cutting behavior and
[6:46]lying and a collection of symptoms so in this letter that she writes she says you know that I know
[6:52]that you know that the world knows you're too smart to have bought any of those make believes I
[6:57]fed you sometimes I watched you raise an eyebrow and I thought today's the day when she's going to
[7:01]crack me open and make me come clean only you never did. Yeah think about that what is the
[7:07]owner sound the friend to come forward do you think that the people struggling want that to happen
[7:13]or not one and it's really broad questions. So many broad questions I'm sorry. No they're great
[7:18]questions I mean the best kind of questions don't have answers right I guess it's so hard and
[7:23]I know that friends I mean it's told from both perspectives it's told from Zoey and Hank because
[7:29]I've been on both sides of this story and so as the person with a disorder or with addictive
[7:35]behaviors I know that when a friend took me aside and said something I kind of I don't know rolled
[7:42]my eyes left in their face but I will say it did make a mark like whether I showed it to them or
[7:48]not I do think their words had an effect on me well she's noticing that I really don't look well
[7:56]or that I'm really not acting like myself it did make a difference whether I could admit that
[8:01]at the time or not and the book is dedicated to the friend who was like enough is enough you know
[8:07]and she yeah without her I don't think I would be here today on the other side I am horribly
[8:14]afraid of conflict so when I see somebody who I think is in trouble I have done all the wrong
[8:20]things like I have left my most brilliant move was that don't try this at home was I left a note
[8:27]at the yoga studio where I thought this woman went and then I signed it like anonymously like I
[8:33]think I think you're having some trouble or I don't know how I phrased it and she was so upset
[8:40]and like went to the management because like how could you how could you say that this is a safe
[8:45]space if somebody's looking at me and leaving a note for me and I was like oh yeah that wasn't a
[8:50]great way to do that oh we were trying to help I was but I didn't know her circumstances like
[8:55]yeah you know so it's just it's a tricky one I would say when in doubt say something face to face
[9:02]that's really the only way you know to make it it forces that you can you tell me about your own
[9:09]experience I know you wrote it memoir yeah about the loss of your father and how you ended up
[9:13]with up of collection of OCD habits yeah but tell me about the eating issues if you don't mind
[9:19]I don't know yeah they didn't actually start for me until like after college I mean I was always
[9:26]sort of particular about eating but really most of my rituals and obsessions were more outward
[9:32]like I thought I was responsible for everyone else so I had to pick up anything sharp on the ground
[9:38]and I had to make piles of like glass and piles of metal and and washing my hands until they
[9:43]bled and repeating prayers over and over again and then I just you know fell in with the right
[9:49]crowd that we're all doing bad things to their bodies in college and I guess after after a break-up
[9:58]or something I don't know I took it I
[10:00]upon myself, I was like, oh, well, this is something,
[10:02]there's another regimen I can follow
[10:05]where I can become the smallest person ever.
[10:08]And actually, I didn't wind up with an intervention
[10:13]or going to any sort of facility until I was 30.
[10:17]Really? Yeah.
[10:18]And what happened then?
[10:19]And that's a note to listeners.
[10:22]It's a really loser time to go to a really,
[10:26]it's like really not a fun time.
[10:28]There's no fun time,
[10:29]that's a really not fun time to go to rehab.
[10:31]It was a great facility.
[10:33]It was also horrible facility.
[10:34]Like I hated it when I was there.
[10:36]I see some of the tools they gave me now.
[10:38]But the fact is like, I think whenever
[10:42]some of feels like they're in this disorder
[10:45]or this is my experience,
[10:47]when I was in my disorder, I really felt like,
[10:50]well, I know how to do this.
[10:52]I have a different way of doing this
[10:53]and I'm going to make it.
[10:55]And you're not going to make it.
[10:56]It's like this superhuman feeling.
[10:58]Like, I don't need to eat.
[11:00]I don't need to do this.
[11:01]I don't need to do what they say.
[11:03]But in the end, we all do.
[11:05]We're all human.
[11:06]And how did you, what was,
[11:07]did you have like a hitting bottom type of moment?
[11:10]Or what did your friend do to get you to treatment?
[11:12]I had where you, I'm sorry.
[11:14]Were you, did you have bulimia and anorexia or just anorexia?
[11:17]No, I had anorexia and I would just exercise
[11:20]until I was like dizzy and weak.
[11:25]And I had friends telling me, like, you know, look good.
[11:28]And, you know, I took that as a compliment
[11:32]and all my 30th birthday,
[11:34]I thought I was getting a surprise party
[11:37]and it was actually my friend and my boyfriend
[11:39]doing an intervention.
[11:41]Surprise.
[11:42]That was a really crappy birthday.
[11:44]Oh, no.
[11:46]Yeah.
[11:47]But and also I had since I was over eight
[11:50]and I was over, I mean, I was an independent person.
[11:54]I had to sign myself in which was another
[11:57]humiliating experience.
[11:59]Not that it's ever gonna be fun again,
[12:01]but I think that I think that this feeling of,
[12:06]you know, other people have suffered from this,
[12:07]but I know how to do it the right way.
[12:10]Just kept on, kept me propelling forward.
[12:13]And what about your parents?
[12:15]I know your father had passed away.
[12:16]Yeah. Did your mother.
[12:18]And I want to read this one quote.
[12:19]This is from the book.
[12:20]And so I'm not saying this is you.
[12:22]This is what you read in fiction.
[12:23]But you talked about the effect of losing your father,
[12:26]not just on you, but the effect of essentially losing
[12:29]your mother as she was grieving so deeply too.
[12:32]You said, I missed my dad, especially his laugh
[12:34]that was so big it shook the floor.
[12:36]But to be honest, I missed my mom more.
[12:38]She was just so distant and fair-licking for so long.
[12:41]She was physically there for me and guess
[12:43]but there was all this unaccounted for time.
[12:44]When I feared she just disappeared.
[12:47]And you talked about how the house kind of fell apart
[12:49]and just nothing was working, right?
[12:50]Did anything like this happen in your family
[12:52]and did you have that same sense of missing your mom
[12:55]as well as your dad?
[12:57]Yeah, definitely.
[12:58]There was, I mean, I talk about in the book,
[13:01]she has this coat of grief that she wears around.
[13:05]And my mom had this horrible brown dress
[13:08]that she wore.
[13:10]I was actually my sister and I were away
[13:13]that night that my dad died, saying it cousins.
[13:15]And I remember coming home and my mom
[13:17]walked out of the house with that dress
[13:19]and I was like, I hate that dress.
[13:21]And I was never into fashion anything
[13:23]but it just felt like grief.
[13:27]Like it just looked like somebody dying.
[13:31]And she was sort of here but not here.
[13:35]I mean, she did her darn day.
[13:37]She had very small kids.
[13:39]She had three small kids and she was suddenly a widow.
[13:42]So she worked so hard to be there for us.
[13:47]And then I really became like very clingy.
[13:50]Very, she knew that something was going on with me
[13:53]but she was just trying to keep me going.
[13:55]And so, you know, typical Jewish moms,
[13:57]she was like, you know, you have to eat, you have to eat.
[14:00]But when I went away to college,
[14:01]she was very scared that this is exactly what was gonna happen.
[14:06]And can I ask her happen to your dad or is, oh yeah.
[14:09]I mean, my father died of cancer when I was 11.
[14:13]And so this is kind of a reaction to,
[14:16]I mean, this is a poor trail of my mom after that.
[14:20]But in the book, Hank's dad dies of a heart attack
[14:24]and that was actually my stepdad.
[14:27]So my mom got up the courage to go out and date
[14:31]and then she got married and like within,
[14:35]it wasn't even nine months.
[14:37]He had a heart attack on the train.
[14:40]And we were all like, we're not doing this again.
[14:43]Oh my gosh, I'm so sorry.
[14:45]So she really, yeah, she was a trooper.
[14:49]And that scene was very much how I experienced it.
[14:53]Like I came in, I got called out of school
[14:56]and you know, he had just moved into our house.
[14:59]I didn't know him that way.
[15:00]I was really not nice to him because he wasn't my dad.
[15:03]And I was so resentful of him.
[15:05]And I kept on thinking, I gave him the silent treatment
[15:08]that morning because he was like really cheery
[15:09]in the morning all the time.
[15:10]I was like, that's unacceptable.
[15:13]And my mom was in the office saying like,
[15:17]well, there's something that's happened.
[15:19]She wasn't making much sense.
[15:21]And she said, David's at the hospital.
[15:24]It wasn't connecting words.
[15:26]And I said, the first thing I said there was,
[15:29]can I still go to play practice?
[15:31]Because it was such a 16 year old moment of like,
[15:34]I don't believe you and you don't have any right
[15:38]to step in on my social calendar.
[15:40]Yeah, it was just a very surreal time.
[15:45]Yeah, how's your mom now?
[15:46]I'm gonna move on to pass away.
[15:48]Oh no.
[15:48]I know.
[15:49]I've had a lot of death in my life
[15:51]about the time.
[15:52]Actually, when I went into rehab at 30,
[15:55]she came to visit me and she,
[15:58]she came to visit me and she said,
[16:00]you know, you're doing so well.
[16:02]And then she said, do you mind if I take a nap?
[16:05]And I was so startled because she never asked to do that.
[16:09]And when she went home,
[16:10]she was diagnosed with leukemia
[16:13]and she died shortly after.
[16:15]Oh my gosh, yeah.
[16:17]That's a lot.
[16:18]It was all into your lap.
[16:19]I mean, that's a lot to go through by 30.
[16:23]Yeah, 30 was not my best year.
[16:26]Neither was 11 or 16.
[16:29]So how did writing play into this?
[16:31]Did you write to make yourself feel better?
[16:33]Definitely. Definitely.
[16:36]Did you always written or did it really start later?
[16:39]My go-to was always journals and, you know,
[16:42]like my favorite aunt who was very close with my dad
[16:46]and I speak about them a lot and my memoir,
[16:49]she always gave me journals and I was like,
[16:51]you know, you've given me so many journals.
[16:53]I would never, this would last me a lifetime.
[16:56]I haven't touched any of them.
[16:57]And then slowly I started writing.
[16:59]And when my mom passed away, that was when I was like,
[17:04]oh, I need to write.
[17:05]I can't go back.
[17:07]I was in the theater and I was not going to go put a makeup
[17:11]and go for an audition.
[17:12]There was no part of me that could like speak,
[17:15]but I could write.
[17:16]And it was so therapeutic.
[17:19]It was really therapeutic.
[17:21]So I started with, I took a personal essay class
[17:25]with a wonderful woman, wonderful editor also.
[17:29]And that's actually how the first modern love came about
[17:32]was that that was the first essay I sold.
[17:34]And that was shortly after I just decided I was just gonna write
[17:38]until I could speak again.
[17:41]Wow.
[17:41]And then I say it was the one where you dated the man Andrew.
[17:44]Yes.
[17:45]Who was old enough to be your father?
[17:46]Yes.
[17:47]And that was the one the modern love was based.
[17:49]Yeah.
[17:50]Wow.
[17:51]Did you ever tell that guy that you wrote the essay about him?
[17:53]I was just wondering.
[17:54]He didn't know.
[17:55]I'm not explaining this very well, but
[17:57]okay.
[17:57]Savvy wrote an essay about her professor that she met
[18:01]and in a beautiful way describes going to his house
[18:04]and his brown socks with the golf clothes on them
[18:07]and how she wanted to cut her up to him.
[18:09]But really, she was trying to cut her up to her dad
[18:11]and said then realize that she had to get out of there.
[18:13]Yeah.
[18:14]And he was a real gentleman about it.
[18:16]He really was.
[18:17]No, I never reached out to him.
[18:18]And some people have reached out to me
[18:21]because it was a job.
[18:22]There was my first job out of college
[18:24]with these like professors who were studying AI.
[18:27]I mean, I had no right to be in the job.
[18:30]But some other people that I met there
[18:32]have reached out and said like,
[18:33]is this the Andrew that we worked with?
[18:36]So I should look him up, I definitely should.
[18:40]But it was really helpful.
[18:41]Again, it was like I didn't know that I needed
[18:43]to express these stories until I really had no other way
[18:48]of communicating.
[18:49]And to this day, I feel that writing helps me say things
[18:53]that I wouldn't be able to say out loud.
[18:58]After you published your modern love piece,
[19:00]did that inspire you to try to do a book length piece
[19:03]or how did that all happen?
[19:04]It was all that first class, actually.
[19:07]Sue Shapiro or something like that?
[19:09]It was before Sue Shapiro.
[19:11]Sue Shapiro was another amazing influencer in my life.
[19:15]The first one was Paula Darrow.
[19:17]Oh, two classes or two?
[19:18]Did you do classes?
[19:19]Boo them.
[19:19]She's amazing.
[19:21]And she was, I forget, even what the prompt was.
[19:24]She just gave us these great prompts
[19:26]and the sky was the limit.
[19:28]And I think one of them was called a moment
[19:32]when you're out of place, when you feel out of place.
[19:36]And all I can write about was being in the elevator
[19:39]in the rehab facility.
[19:41]And then it was obviously not about being in the elevator.
[19:45]It was about going into this world that I didn't want to be in.
[19:50]And then another one was forgetting what the prompt was.
[19:55]It was such a precise phrase, though.
[19:59]And it.
[20:00]It was about, well, the essay that I wrote was about thinking that I killed someone with
[20:05]a grocery cart, and this was one of my fears and my OCD fears like for 20 years that
[20:12]I really was sure that I killed someone with a grocery cart, that it had smashed into
[20:16]their car, and they had run someone over, and my mom would try to talk me down, like,
[20:23]I was there, nothing happened, I would make her read the news.
[20:27]So I wrote about just that moment of seeing a grocery cart and thinking that something
[20:33]was, that I couldn't take it back, that somebody was dead because of me, and Paula published
[20:39]it in self magazine, and that's what led to my memoir.
[20:43]Wow.
[20:44]Yeah.
[20:45]And then what about the next, the pranks, and what did the pranks start?
[20:49]Praying was actually long before then.
[20:51]Praying was, I think as a way to cope with my dad being gone, I just like, I need
[20:57]to repeat things over and over again, and so I'd say the cottage, and then I'd say
[21:01]the schmon, then I'd say, you know, I'm sorry, and then it became, I'm sorry if I
[21:06]killed him, and I'm sorry if I did this, and it was like a litany of prayers that just
[21:13]by college, I was praying for hours a day, and it was missing classes, and then you also
[21:20]had what you have in the book too, that Zoe does, and she pretends its cat scratches,
[21:24]that she starts cutting herself as well, and you talk about it in the book, is it being
[21:28]such a release for her, and you were doing that as well?
[21:31]Yeah, that was, I mean, that was to me, that was around the same time as Edarexia, it
[21:39]was kind of another way to be like, well, I can control my body.
[21:42]You guys all think that, you know, I look sick, but you don't know what I really have underneath
[21:47]my shirt, you know, I have all these markings, and I'm in control.
[21:52]And so now you have your own kids, yeah, I hope they're not listening, so you got out
[21:58]at 30, just give me like the two second, how did you get from 30 to like sitting here
[22:03]with five folks, fellows, three kids, and all the rest of it, a miracle.
[22:08]Well, the boyfriend that got me into rehab has also my husband, so there was at least, you
[22:14]know, that bridge was nice to cross.
[22:17]Yeah, it was a slow slog out, I think that there's no magic button as far as I know.
[22:26]There's no like you enter the rehab facility and then they give you the tools and then
[22:30]you leave when you're done.
[22:32]So every day was kind of making a promise with somebody, like we were literally pinky
[22:37]swear, I'm pinky swear that I won't cut myself today, or, you know, I'm going to go
[22:41]to that bathroom and I'm not going to purge or whatever it was, it was really, they were
[22:46]very much, it wasn't, it wasn't an impatient facility, I should say, it was an outpatient,
[22:51]so you're there from nine to five or nine to six and you eat nonstop, which was horrible,
[22:57]but then you had this time where you had to be with yourself after you ate and after
[23:02]you listened to these talks and after you let out everything that you're feeling.
[23:08]So it was very much like you have to own your recovery because we can't do it for you.
[23:14]That said, I left mostly because my mom was sick and I had to get back to New York because
[23:22]I was in Chicago and, you know, as the doors were closing behind me, they're like, you
[23:26]still have work to do, don't forget.
[23:28]I think thanks, thanks for the great times.
[23:34]And then I do think that writing and walking and yoga and listening to meditation, you
[23:43]know, all the, all the things that I guess we know are good for us, but don't want
[23:48]to do, did put me on a, on a steadier path.
[23:54]And you know, my body was healthy enough to have three kids, which I'm so grateful for.
[24:01]And yeah, and I think when somebody asked me how I'm doing, then the best way I can
[24:06]say it is we're all steady, like we're all okay.
[24:11]As a parent, how do you feel like you need to approach this whole eating landmine, basically,
[24:18]of what to do with your kids?
[24:20]I know there's like so much advice out there and yeah, how do you make sure you don't
[24:24]pass along your issues to them, something that I try not to do as well.
[24:29]Right.
[24:30]This is, yeah, this is my everyday conundrum.
[24:34]I don't really have an answer for that.
[24:36]I think the most important thing I have to keep reminding myself is they're not me.
[24:41]My daughter is very much like me.
[24:44]She's built like me.
[24:45]She kind of has the same hang ups or affinities as me.
[24:50]She's much smarter than me.
[24:52]And she's, it's sometimes it's helpful for me to remember like she can draw.
[24:56]I could never draw.
[24:58]They think there are specific things that she is really good at that I was never good
[25:03]at.
[25:04]And so it helps me feel like there will be things that I think are always going to affect
[25:09]her and they won't necessarily affect her.
[25:12]She's the one I focus on the most just because I think we do have so much in common.
[25:18]But I also, she's been oldest.
[25:20]So she's 11 now and she's very aware of this book.
[25:24]She doesn't really know what it's about.
[25:26]She knows that, you know, that one person I think I've described it to her is one friend
[25:31]is doing bad things to her body and the other one has to decide if she can help her or not.
[25:36]But she's too smart to like to leave it at that.
[25:39]I know very soon she'll be like, how do you know that?
[25:41]How did you know that people do those things?
[25:44]And then I love to talk to her and I will talk to her by herself.
[25:49]Like she's a very studious person and she needs to kind of listen, process and then
[25:56]go away for a while and like knit or bake or do something that she's really good at
[26:02]that I've never been good at and come back with her questions.
[26:05]And when you were writing this book, where and when did you like to write it?
[26:09]How long did it take?
[26:10]It was your process.
[26:11]Great question.
[26:12]I'm very old school.
[26:14]I have to write in the notebook with a big pen.
[26:17]I always have to start there.
[26:19]I have tricks to get myself to write like, usually I have to start with a page or two
[26:25]of just blah, blah, blah and a grateful list every morning and then I'll give myself
[26:31]an assignment of what are 25 traits that I want this character to have or what are 25 secrets
[26:42]that this person may have.
[26:44]And then when I'm really trying to piece together a scene, it'll be like, write three
[26:49]pages of just what happens when they go to this party.
[26:54]So I try to really break it down and then once I have a chunk in my notebook, then I
[27:01]transfer it all to computer and try to make it into a chapter and so it kind of goes
[27:07]through a bunch of edits before it is really on the page.
[27:12]That's nice.
[27:13]It's like old school.
[27:14]You don't have that much.
[27:15]It's great.
[27:16]I have to.
[27:17]There's something about the physical contact of the pen.
[27:21]And I'm very particular, you know, the basic big pen with the blue cap.
[27:28]Do you have any advice to aspiring authors?
[27:31]It's right everything.
[27:33]It's right everything.
[27:35]And I would always say right by hand if you can because I think it really moves a different
[27:42]muscle when it's coming out of your brain into a pen, onto paper.
[27:47]If you can't do that, you know, record your thoughts into the phone and then write it
[27:53]that way.
[27:54]Just when you have a thought, don't let it slip away and think, oh, I'll remember that
[28:00]later.
[28:01]Yeah.
[28:02]I never remember those thoughts.
[28:03]Right.
[28:04]They never come back.
[28:05]They're really awesome too.
[28:06]Yeah.
[28:07]And what do you have coming next?
[28:08]Do you have another book?
[28:10]I do.
[28:11]Yeah.
[28:12]In September, a book called Sanctuary.
[28:15]Yes.
[28:16]I got one.
[28:17]Can you tell?
[28:18]I did not sleep fast.
[28:19]Oh.
[28:20]No, it's okay.
[28:21]Sanctuary.
[28:22]Let me get.
[28:23]And I co-wrote it with Paola Mendoza, who is an amazing artist and activist and she's
[28:28]one of the co-founders of the Women's March.
[28:31]And yeah, it's about a slightly futuristic world where everyone in America who's undocumented
[28:38]is being rounded up and taken away.
[28:41]And so a 17-year-old girl named Valentina has to get herself and her little brother to safety.
[28:48]And I think it's really awesome.
[28:50]Yeah.
[28:51]Sounds really awesome.
[28:52]Oh, my gosh.
[28:53]Well, thank you so much for coming on Monday.
[28:54]Thank you.
[28:55]Thank you.
[28:56]Thank you.
[28:57]You've been listening to Moms and have time to read books with Zibi Owens.
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[29:20]Thanks so much to Steve and Ryan at Textures Sound for the Sound Editing.
[29:24]And thank you to Morning Moon Productions for providing this fantastic intro and now
[29:27]trim music.
[29:28]Thanks for listening.
[29:29]You can always email me at zibiowens.com.