Dibs Baer, LADY TIGERS IN THE CONCRETE JUNGLE
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[1:22]on my ad ziviowens account. Thanks. I'm here today with Dibs Bear who's the author of Lady Tigers
[1:28]in the concrete jungle. How softball and sisterhood saved lives in the South Bronx. Dibs is an
[1:33]entertainment writer and editor who worked in the magazine industry for 15 plus years. She has
[1:38]written or co-written six books, including The New York Times bestseller, I didn't come here to make
[1:43]friends. Dibs currently lives in Palm Springs, California. Welcome, Dibs. Thanks for coming on
[1:47]mom's and have time to read books. Thank you for having me. So Dibs is actually short for
[1:51]something else, right? I read what's your real name? Deborah. Deborah. Yes. How long have you been Dibs?
[1:56]I was in 20 years. Wow. How did it start? Yeah. My mom, it's sort of a silly story. My mom,
[2:04]when I was a kid wanted me to have a nickname and she tried Dibs but it was too contrived.
[2:10]So nobody did it. And I made the mistake of telling my best friend that story in grad school
[2:16]and then she just started calling me Dibs and it kind of stuck after that. And then I just kind
[2:20]of grew to love it and now I'm Dibs. That's it. It's so cool. A lot of people call me Zibs. So we're
[2:24]like Zibs and Dibs. Zibs and Dibs. We should have like an cartoon. We should. We should.
[2:28]We should. Take it on the road. Yeah. So your latest book is called Lady Tigers in the concrete
[2:34]jungle. Tell listeners what this book is about. Okay. So it's about a guy named Chris Estacio who
[2:41]got his first job as a PE teacher at one of the most dangerous poverty stricken neighborhoods in
[2:47]America really in the South Bronx. And when he got to the school, it was his first job and he noticed
[2:53]the girls were going after each other in a way they could have such a vicious violent way and he
[2:58]had never seen anything like it. He was like, so shocked by it. And he was like, how can I help
[3:01]the girls? And there was no extra curriculars for the girls at the school. They didn't have the
[3:05]money for it. And he decided to start the softball team. And the first try out for girls showed up.
[3:10]And he said, I don't care who it is. Bring all your friends back so we can have a team. And the next day,
[3:17]like 15 of like the worst girls in the school who all hated each other walked through the door.
[3:23]And it was because they didn't want to go home and they didn't have anywhere to go. They couldn't
[3:27]go outside in the neighborhood. They just wanted to be in the gym. They didn't care about softball.
[3:30]So they just showed up to kind of hang out in the gym. And it's sort of about
[3:35]how he turned that group into a team of sisters really. And just it's just this crazy year of him
[3:42]finding out all of them have an issue in their personal life. And it was about him kind of navigating
[3:48]that. They weren't doing well in school. Most of them. And it was just it was really not about softball.
[3:53]The book gets about some, you know, Lance Armstrong's book is not about the bike. This is not
[3:57]really about softball. It's really about girls coming together and like forming learning how to be a team.
[4:03]And that's sort of the basic thing just of it. How did you discover this whole story?
[4:08]So I played competitive softball when I was a kid. And a woman that I played with is now a coach.
[4:13]And she introduced me to coach Stasio. And we just hit it off like we had like instant
[4:17]like chemistry. And I just like, he's such an amazing person. And when he told me about the
[4:23]first year of the team and everything they went through, I was just kind of blown away. And I was like,
[4:27]this is one of the most amazing stories I've ever heard. And then that was it. And then we just
[4:31]started working and talking all the time. And that's how it came about. Yeah. I noticed near
[4:37]acknowledgements at the end. You were like, you talked to him as the last person. And you were like,
[4:41]we did it. Was it hard? Like, did you? Yes. Well, first of all, you know, it was we have one publisher
[4:48]say yes barely. You know what I mean when I say barely? Yes. And I love our publisher thing.
[4:56]You know, I think God, she did say yes. And she got it. But you only need one. You only need one.
[5:01]That's it. Don't whoever's out there listening. Don't give up because there might be somebody out
[5:06]there that gets it and just keep pushing. And if you believe in it, at the same time I had had
[5:12]three proposals out like way more like commercial things. Never thought this book would go anywhere.
[5:17]And it was the only one that sold. Really? Yes. Of the three projects that was working on where
[5:21]they collaborations or where they all come to you. This was the other proposal. Yeah. Collaborations.
[5:27]And then this is the biggest long shot. You know, and it was the one that went. And so from that
[5:33]the logistics of getting all the girls back together again and getting them to talk and wanting to
[5:40]talk, it was it was about a year and a half, two years. It was really the emotional toll of it on
[5:46]everyone. But it was so amazing and inspiring. Like the maybe the I feel like the greatest thing
[5:51]I've ever worked on. I'm so passionate about it. You know, and I just like that's why I'm so
[5:55]excited to be here because I want more people to know about it. You know, I do too. Yeah, that's why
[6:00]you're here. Yeah. No, it's true. I mean, and all these girls, it's like, I can't flip in the
[6:05]page. Like one person after the next, like then they see this her friend gets murdered next to her
[6:10]and then like they're in jail with the mother. Like every, I'm like, now what's going to happen?
[6:14]I mean, that's the thing. I didn't know this was going on. I mean, these girls have no one to protect
[6:21]them. No champion for them. And it's happening like not only at this school, but in so many places
[6:27]these young girls. And again, these are middle school girls. And I think when you read the book,
[6:34]a lot of times people have said this to me that they felt like they were older because of the
[6:37]things they were going through. No, they're in junior high. And you just can't believe that
[6:42]they're having to go to school. No one or they're not learning anything. When their homelives are
[6:47]a disaster, their school is a disaster. I mean, you read in the book that no one's going to
[6:53]all the basement doing horrible things in the basement, right? Yeah. No, the faculty keeps quitting.
[6:57]The faculty keeps quitting. And they can't go out. They can't even like play in the neighborhood.
[7:02]There's nowhere for them to go. There's nothing for them to do. And so there's stuck at home in
[7:05]these terrible situations, really. And so Chris kind of pulling them out of that and being a father
[7:11]figure. There's so much to the book. It's almost like overwhelming. Yeah. And I get that, you know,
[7:16]this is own cancer journey, which was like horrific terrain about stomach cancer and the pain. And
[7:21]I feel like you captured that so well because I felt like reading it, I was going through it. Like
[7:25]his excruciating pain and having to be taken care of by his wife. And like just just, oh, my gosh,
[7:31]it was like so intense. I know the whole thing is so intense. It's just, yeah, he went through his own
[7:36]childhood trauma, just like the girls had. And then on top of that, he battled stomach cancer.
[7:41]And then even after that, he was doing this. He's just, he's amazing. I hope you get to meet him
[7:46]someday because he's incredible. I was so afraid that I was going to get to the end of the book and he
[7:49]would not be alive. Oh, he's doing well. He gets tested frequently. And you know, he is,
[7:55]he's sick a lot because he has a lot going on, but he's doing very well. Yeah. What do you think it
[8:01]was about him that made him be able to connect with these girls and have them open up? Because a
[8:07]lot of the time you were talking in the book about, it wasn't even about the softball, right?
[8:10]Sometimes he would just sit and talk and figure out what was going on with them, right? And how
[8:14]much they needed that. And because of that, they could be a team and could be more successful. But
[8:18]what do you think it was about him that let them open up so much to him? Well, he does have an
[8:22]incredible personality. But beyond that, I think they trusted him because they knew that he went
[8:28]through the same thing. He's from their neighborhood. And he was like one of the first adults in
[8:32]their life to actually care about them. And that matters. And also structured, you ever watch a
[8:38]supernanny? No. Okay. I like that show. I love supernanny. But if you watch a show, the common theme
[8:45]in that show that she does this structure, that children actually like structure and a schedule.
[8:52]And actually being told, like, come here at this time and we're going to do this and have a plan.
[8:58]I think that their lives were chaos and he made it not be chaos. And then, of course,
[9:03]like the whole like father figure thing. I would say all but one or two of the ones in the book had
[9:10]no father living at home or even in their lives at all. So here's this guy, the first guy that
[9:15]they can trust and cares about them isn't going anywhere. He stuck it out. He didn't leave like
[9:21]the rest of the teachers there. And he actually cared like, you know, you see in the book that he,
[9:26]they're not going to class and he walks around school finding them and being like, you know,
[9:30]poking his head through the window of the class and watching them as they're goofing around in
[9:34]the class and being like, you know, stop. So it just, it worked. And nobody had thought to tell
[9:41]their story until you came around really. Well, they had been on Ellen. Oh, okay. So that was another
[9:46]part of it. So my friend who her team invited their team to Chicago to play like an exhibition match.
[9:54]Okay. And then Ellen had them on the show, a later team. So a couple years later. Okay.
[10:00]And so they got, they went kind of viral for that.
[10:02]Oh, I see.
[10:03]So they did have a little bit of attention.
[10:05]And is that why she blurbed your book?
[10:07]Yes, I see.
[10:08]Yes.
[10:08]Which was so cool.
[10:09]Yeah.
[10:10]Well, well, multiple reasons.
[10:12]No, I was going to say that was sort of a publisher
[10:15]like trick, like putting on the cover.
[10:18]You know what I mean?
[10:18]Like she said that on the show with them.
[10:20]OK, yeah.
[10:21]It's OK.
[10:22]I mean, OK, the quote by the way is,
[10:25]I hope this inspires you as much as it inspires me.
[10:29]I love the story Ellen DeGeneres.
[10:31]Yeah, so you're saying she didn't love the book.
[10:32]She loved the story of it.
[10:33]She loves the story of the team.
[10:34]Yes.
[10:35]Are you about to get in trouble?
[10:36]Should we not talk about this?
[10:37]No, I mean, I just feel like they ask her.
[10:41]I don't know.
[10:41]OK, whatever.
[10:42]We're going to just put this down and move right along.
[10:44]Yeah, so we were right along.
[10:45]OK.
[10:46]I mean, yeah, I mean, she, yeah, OK.
[10:49]And moving on.
[10:49]OK, moving on.
[10:51]OK, well, anyway, so they were on the show.
[10:53]Yes.
[10:53]And so you had heard about them that way too.
[10:55]And they, yes.
[10:55]And they were on the Today Show too.
[10:57]Not that there was a story.
[10:58]Yes, on Today.com, at least.
[11:00]When they referenced your book.
[11:01]That was after.
[11:02]That was after.
[11:02]Yes.
[11:03]So the Ellen thing happened before that
[11:04]actually helped sell the book.
[11:05]Because they had gone viral because of the Ellen thing,
[11:08]because of the story.
[11:09]Excellent.
[11:10]Yeah.
[11:10]And are you in touch with the girls?
[11:12]Yeah.
[11:12]Oh, yeah.
[11:13]I mean, not all of them.
[11:14]How I would say they're busy, but there's probably four or five
[11:18]that I keep in touch with regularly.
[11:19]But that must mean a lot to them too.
[11:20]Yeah, I mean, I love them.
[11:22]I mean, I love all of them.
[11:23]I, they're, they're so brave.
[11:26]Like the fact that they opened up
[11:28]and I mean, they really like talk.
[11:31]They go really empty out.
[11:32]They needed it.
[11:33]They needed it.
[11:34]Yeah, yeah.
[11:34]I talk to Genesis.
[11:36]Robin is doing amazing, you know, Angie Solaris.
[11:40]She's great.
[11:41]Yoshi.
[11:42]I talk to a lot because she still talks to Kosh Stasio a lot.
[11:46]So yeah, it's like this is something that is not going to be
[11:49]something that I forget about ever.
[11:51]Yeah, you know, it's, you know, a real relationships.
[11:56]When you go that in depth with people, you know,
[11:58]even Chris's life.
[11:59]I mean, and then after it's doing the cancer
[12:01]and then his child has autism.
[12:03]Right.
[12:03]I mean, like all this stuff's never in it.
[12:05]I was like, what is going to, what now?
[12:08]I know.
[12:08]He's incredible.
[12:09]And yet he has this like intrepid spirit.
[12:12]Completely.
[12:13]Yeah, amazing.
[12:14]Yeah.
[12:15]I feel like this should be a movie.
[12:16]Right. Like a lead on me.
[12:17]Like I hope so.
[12:18]We'll see.
[12:19]Yeah, are you working on that?
[12:20]We're working on it.
[12:21]All right.
[12:22]Yeah, good.
[12:23]You know, I just feel like the girls don't have those movies.
[12:25]The boys get Friday night lights and they get Rudy
[12:28]and they get blind side.
[12:30]What are the girl books?
[12:31]Like the girl movies like that, a lead of their own,
[12:35]which I love.
[12:36]I was going to say, yeah.
[12:37]I mean, can you think of any other female girl sports team
[12:42]when they like Beckham?
[12:43]Been it like Beckham when was that?
[12:45]How long ago?
[12:45]Well, right.
[12:47]Ten years in a minute.
[12:47]Right.
[12:48]She's the man.
[12:49]You remember that one?
[12:50]With a man to buy in?
[12:51]No.
[12:51]Or she dresses like a boy to be on the boys team.
[12:53]I know, but I remember just one of the guys.
[12:55]Did you see that?
[12:56]I love that movie.
[12:57]That was great.
[12:58]I follow her on Facebook.
[13:00]No way.
[13:01]Joyce, hyzer Robinson, I think.
[13:02]Oh, my gosh.
[13:03]She's amazing.
[13:04]I love her.
[13:05]It was so funny.
[13:05]My brother and I, I don't know why we used to watch them.
[13:07]I mean, all the time.
[13:08]Right.
[13:08]And I was telling my husband Kyle about it.
[13:11]And I was like, well, I don't even know why,
[13:12]but she dressed up as a boy.
[13:14]And then she wanted to be on the football team.
[13:15]And my brother was like, no, no, no, let me tell you why.
[13:17]She was like doing this new scene right.
[13:19]He remembered the whole thing.
[13:20]Yeah, she was doing the newspaper.
[13:21]Yeah, she's saying, I forgot about that part.
[13:22]Anyway, I have to go watch it again.
[13:24]I've seen that movie about 40 times.
[13:25]Yeah, we watched it like we were in over and over again.
[13:27]That's what we did in the 80s.
[13:28]Yeah, this red is totally every 80s movie
[13:31]I watched like 100 times.
[13:32]Right.
[13:33]I'm trying to answer your question now about more movies
[13:35]about girls' team, which is crazy.
[13:37]Right.
[13:38]I'm trying to think about like surfing.
[13:40]That doesn't really go.
[13:41]Oh, yeah, the girl's surfing was bitten by the shark.
[13:43]Right.
[13:43]But anyway, good point.
[13:44]Yeah.
[13:45]Yeah, I mean, why not?
[13:47]Why not?
[13:47]I don't know.
[13:49]I mean, I'm going to Google it this time, really.
[13:50]Yeah, I won't waste more time.
[13:52]So but this book was a departure for you
[13:54]from some of your of your, right, if you will.
[13:58]So you were a celebrity editor in touch for like seven years.
[14:02]Yeah.
[14:03]You would interview all sorts of famous people
[14:05]from Mariah Carey to Angelina Jolie
[14:08]and a million other people.
[14:09]Yes.
[14:10]And that was your thing.
[14:11]Yes.
[14:12]And then you started working on books with some of those people.
[14:14]Yes.
[14:15]And maybe not quite that one.
[14:16]Not okay, fine.
[14:18]And it should be fun.
[14:19]Literally, I know this is my town terrible
[14:21]because you wrote a whole book with this woman read it.
[14:23]But I had not heard of read it until lunch yesterday.
[14:26]And then I was like, wait, I'm arguing.
[14:29]You read a whole fucking read it.
[14:30]Oh, that's so weird.
[14:31]What that happens.
[14:31]Crazy.
[14:32]Yeah.
[14:32]Because her show just started the third season
[14:34]just started last night.
[14:35]Yeah, I don't watch this a lot of TV.
[14:37]And her book that you wrote with her is so close
[14:39]to being the shit y'all don't even know.
[14:41]Yeah.
[14:42]I like that title.
[14:42]By the way, you are the best title person ever, ever.
[14:46]Like all of your folks have the best titles.
[14:48]And then I didn't come here to make friends.
[14:49]I didn't come here to make friends.
[14:50]I was also worried about that last night.
[14:51]I was like, many times somebody doesn't want to make friends.
[14:53]Oh, no.
[14:54]No, I do.
[14:55]I don't care.
[14:58]Talk to me about how you pictured that type of book
[15:01]to go straight and to work on with other people
[15:03]and then transitioning to this one.
[15:04]OK, so yeah, I'd worked in magazines for 15 years
[15:08]doing celebrity stuff, highbrow and lowbrow,
[15:11]in touch, lowbrow.
[15:12]And then, you know, interviewing some really big A-list stars
[15:15]for like Gotham, Hampton's, like women's health and stuff
[15:18]like that.
[15:19]And then the magazine industry kind of imploded a little bit.
[15:22]And I moved out here, and I was freelancing.
[15:25]And I just, Courtney Robertson, who's the star of the bachelor,
[15:29]we had a mutual friend.
[15:30]And right after, it was funny because when I was working
[15:32]in touch, I was in charge of putting her on the cover,
[15:35]like naked on a bathtub.
[15:38]And then my friend was like, she wants to do a book.
[15:40]Do you want to talk to her?
[15:41]And I was like, she want to meet me?
[15:44]And then I met her.
[15:45]And I said, look, I just have to say right now,
[15:47]I need to be totally full disclosure.
[15:50]Like, I was a main reason that your life was kind of a living
[15:53]hell after you were on the bachelor.
[15:55]And she laughed about it.
[15:56]And then we were like, good, they're good to go.
[15:59]And that was another book where, I mean,
[16:01]it was the first thing I ever did.
[16:03]And I didn't know what I was doing.
[16:05]And we did a proposal.
[16:07]And I just knew, like, we were the first ones to actually
[16:09]say, you know, all those girls on those shows,
[16:12]they have that disclosures.
[16:13]And they're not allowed to talk about the actual process
[16:15]of the show.
[16:16]And Cordy had been so torn apart by that show.
[16:20]Like, she wanted to talk about what had happened to her.
[16:23]And I, we just basically said, we're doing it.
[16:26]We don't care if they sue us.
[16:27]Go ahead.
[16:27]We're not worth the shirt on our backs.
[16:29]You want to sue us?
[16:29]Go for it.
[16:30]We know that it's not, you can't tell someone.
[16:32]They can't tell their story.
[16:34]And we did.
[16:35]And I knew if we did it in the right way,
[16:38]that it would be really big because the bachelor has,
[16:40]you know, a built-in base of 8 million people.
[16:43]And if we just got a percentage of those people,
[16:45]and then sure enough, it was my,
[16:47]the first one I ever did, New York Times bestseller,
[16:50]they'll probably never ever happen again.
[16:51]Stuff.
[16:52]And I was just kidding.
[16:53]But it was incredible.
[16:54]And this, another thing about that book was that we had
[16:57]an original agent and after we turned in the proposal
[17:00]to her, she said, this is so crass and disgusting.
[17:04]And, you know, I can't shop this.
[17:06]And I literally couldn't get out of bed for like two days
[17:09]because I was so distraught about it.
[17:11]And then I, all of a sudden, I woke up and I was like,
[17:13]well, who said she's right?
[17:15]Good for you.
[17:16]Yeah.
[17:17]And I was like, I'm gonna find the right person.
[17:19]And we did.
[17:20]And the rest is history.
[17:21]And I just knew, like, you have like a feeling about it.
[17:26]I knew that if we did it the right way,
[17:27]it would, like the fans of that show would eat it up.
[17:30]And they did and they loved it.
[17:31]And I loved that book and I love Courtney.
[17:32]And then now they, now all of them are doing it.
[17:36]Like we were the first to say,
[17:37]like what they were doing in the fantasy suite,
[17:39]you know, like all that stuff.
[17:41]So anyways, that was a really long story.
[17:42]Sorry.
[17:43]So that's how I kind of got into the ghost writing thing.
[17:46]Was that book?
[17:47]And it's funny because you think,
[17:49]oh, New York Times, but seller,
[17:50]I'm gonna have all these, you know, things coming away.
[17:52]It doesn't work like that.
[17:53]You have to hustle and be out there constantly.
[17:56]And, you know, I'm still working hard to get like,
[17:59]you know, the ghost writing thing going.
[18:01]I've done some really fun ones.
[18:03]But it's tough, you know, like kind of,
[18:05]I think you just take kind of what you can get.
[18:08]And you're always up against a million people
[18:10]to get those gigs.
[18:11]Well, I mean, I think the real problem
[18:12]is the implosion of the magazine industry,
[18:15]which has left so many talented writers
[18:17]and editors without a good place to land.
[18:20]And so the competition to be a ghost writer
[18:23]escalates, right?
[18:23]Absolutely.
[18:24]Yeah, definitely.
[18:25]Which is so sad to me as somebody who loved magazines.
[18:28]Right.
[18:28]I put that in the past tense.
[18:29]I shouldn't.
[18:30]Love is loved, I don't know.
[18:31]Yeah, it's different.
[18:32]But yeah.
[18:33]And then so much talent.
[18:34]So, so much talent out there.
[18:36]I mean, I'm actually in a Facebook group
[18:38]called After Mags.
[18:39]Oh, interesting.
[18:40]And it's run by, I don't know if you've ever heard of her.
[18:42]Her name is Chandra's app.
[18:43]And she did add 2010.
[18:44]OK, that comment.
[18:46]It's a networking thing for all the people
[18:47]who are like left jobless from the magazine industry,
[18:50]imploding and we all help each other out.
[18:52]And it's kind of cool.
[18:53]I mean, and everyone's like pivoting
[18:55]to really interesting stuff.
[18:56]So I guess that's another good thing,
[18:58]like when window closes and other opens kind of thing.
[19:01]And this is where I ended up just kind of ghost writing.
[19:03]And then I got to do the Lady Tigers book.
[19:06]So now I'm, I guess, an author.
[19:09]Yes, you are an author.
[19:10]Yeah.
[19:11]Yeah.
[19:11]Which is cool.
[19:12]Yeah, I like it.
[19:12]It's fun.
[19:13]And do you have other projects?
[19:14]Or you still hustling for your next project?
[19:16]So my next one is I am helping an Instagram influencer
[19:21]who has 14 million followers.
[19:23]OK.
[19:24]Do his book.
[19:25]Yeah, so that's starting up.
[19:26]Like we're meeting on Friday for the first time.
[19:28]So that'll be new doing something with an influencer.
[19:31]He's really funny and stuff.
[19:32]So I think it's good after this book being so heavy.
[19:36]He's the opposite of that.
[19:37]It's just like light.
[19:38]And so that'll be nice.
[19:39]And then I'm working on a book about,
[19:41]I think I was telling you that I live with my mom
[19:43]now after my dad did.
[19:44]So I'm doing a book about kind of becoming best friends
[19:46]with my mom later in life, you know, sort of.
[19:51]So and then living in the retirement community.
[19:54]It's like that movie, the Cameron Diaz movie.
[19:56]Yeah.
[19:57]And her shoes.
[19:58]And her shoes.
[19:58]It's I, I say have that.
[20:00]mixed with Kramer from Delbokavista.
[20:02]Did you know Seinfeld?
[20:03]Yes, everyone he was.
[20:04]No.
[20:05]Yes, trims himself.
[20:06]Yes, yes, yes.
[20:08]That's awesome.
[20:09]Well, that'll be a great book, too.
[20:10]Yeah, I'm just starting that.
[20:12]So I'll let you know how it goes, hopefully.
[20:14]Do you have any other advice for aspiring authors?
[20:17]No, that you're an author.
[20:18]Let's see.
[20:19]I definitely think, you know, the big thing is,
[20:22]like I was saying before about not letting one voice
[20:26]tell you you're not gonna make your book happen.
[20:29]Like, just keep looking.
[20:30]That's a big one, I think.
[20:31]Because it's a tough business.
[20:33]It's really hard to sell a book.
[20:35]I don't care who you are, you know?
[20:36]Like, you could be famous and it's still hard.
[20:39]So that would be my best advice, I guess.
[20:41]Okay. Yeah.
[20:42]That's good.
[20:43]Yeah.
[20:43]Yeah.
[20:44]All right.
[20:45]Well, thank you so much for coming on, Mom.
[20:46]So I don't have time to read books.
[20:47]Thank you for having me.
[20:48]This was awesome.
[20:49]I really hope that people listening get inspired
[20:51]by the story of the girls in your book, Lady Tigers,
[20:53]and that they read it and spread the word about all the great
[20:56]things that get happen when somebody believes in it.
[20:59]Please spread the word.
[20:59]Please relieve reviews.
[21:01]Tell everybody, you know, all that good stuff.
[21:05]Thank you. Thanks.
[21:06]Dips and tips, signing out.
[21:07]That's right.
[21:08]You've been listening to Moms and have time to read books
[21:10]with Zibi Owens.
[21:12]Please make sure to sign up for my newsletter at zibiowans.com
[21:15]to get more updates about episodes like these
[21:18]and also lots of live events.
[21:19]Thanks again for listening today, everybody.
[21:22]And don't forget to check out WeFoundTime.com.
[21:25]And it's also available on zibiowans.com as a tab,
[21:28]but also at WeFoundTime.com, check out the essays
[21:31]and go to Instagram at zibiowans
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[21:40]where I interview four to five authors live
[21:42]for a few minutes each.
[21:43]Please check it out.
[21:44]And thanks for listening.
[21:45]I really appreciate it.
[21:46]You can follow me on Instagram at Moms.
[21:49]Don't have time to read books.
[21:50]Thanks so much to Steve and Ryan at Texture Sound
[21:53]for the Sound Editing.
[21:54]And thank you to Morning Moon Productions
[21:56]for providing this fantastic intro and out trim music.
[21:59]Thanks for listening.
[22:00]You could always email me at zibiowans.com.