Amy Fish, I WANTED FRIES WITH THAT
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[1:38]Today I'm on Skype who is Amy Fish, who's the author of I Wanted Fries With That.
[1:43]How to ask for what you want and get what you need.
[1:45]She is the ombud's person, also known as the Chief Complaints Officer at Concordia University
[1:50]in Montreal, Canada, and regularly teaches, speaks, and writes about how to complain effectively.
[1:56]Her work has been published in Reader's Digest, Hippocampus Magazine, Costco Magazine,
[2:00]Fost, and several other publications she currently lives in Montreal.
[2:05]Welcome, Amy.
[2:06]Thanks for coming on Moms.
[2:07]Don't have time to read books.
[2:08]Thank you for having me.
[2:09]It's my pleasure.
[2:10]Can you please tell listeners what I wanted Fries With That is about and also how you
[2:14]came up with that fabulous title?
[2:16]Sure.
[2:17]The book I want to Fries With That is about how do you ask for what you want and get what
[2:21]you need.
[2:22]There are 27 chapters.
[2:24]It starts off with little things, how to get greener lettuce and we work up to the bigger
[2:28]things, like how to get the right break at work or how to negotiate with your spouse.
[2:33]How did you become the Chief Complaint Officer in life?
[2:36]How did you know that was something you would be good at?
[2:39]How did you get there?
[2:40]I'm always fascinated by people getting these really cool, perfect jobs and how they even
[2:46]knew they were around.
[2:49]This is a really good story.
[2:50]I told it out my book, lunch, actually, which is that I was working with my history as
[2:54]in healthcare.
[2:55]I've always worked in healthcare.
[2:56]I've been masters in health and men.
[2:58]My husband was selling, so Pete decided to start his own business.
[3:03]I went in the office to help him and I was doing collections on the phone.
[3:06]After a few years, thankfully, the business did well and outgrew my non-expertise.
[3:12]I said to him, listen, I'm going to go back to my own career, but it's going to take
[3:17]me a really long time because quality in healthcare at such a narrow field.
[3:22]The next day, I was putting down newspaper for my kids to paint.
[3:25]This was a long time ago.
[3:28]I put the career section down and I saw an ad for an ombudsman at a Jewish nursing home.
[3:34]It was here in Montreal.
[3:35]They were looking for someone bilingual English and French.
[3:37]They were looking for someone with a degree in health and men.
[3:40]They were looking for someone from the Jewish community.
[3:42]It practically had my picture.
[3:44]It was all of my qualifications.
[3:46]I said, ombudsman, that's interesting.
[3:48]I'm going to try it and I went for the interview and within a week, I had a new job.
[3:53]Wow.
[3:54]Something that's like fall into your lab, but you can't ignore the sound.
[3:58]Really, I learned how to do it on the job, but I realized right away that it was a hand
[4:03]in the club and it was a great fit for me.
[4:05]Your job, dovetailed with your ability, natural ability to speak up for yourself.
[4:11]Then you've shared this expertise with all of us now in this fantastic book, which I
[4:16]thought was so brilliant, you organized by the complaint, which is just, I love when the
[4:21]structure of books is a little bit like a wink-wink.
[4:24]Yeah.
[4:25]Awesome.
[4:26]Yeah.
[4:27]I learned how to do it, right?
[4:28]Because I could have organized it by skill set, but I think this led me the opportunity
[4:33]to be a little funnier, like how did, you know, keep someone alive when complaining
[4:39]or how to get on the ferris, like it was a little, it gave me a little more opportunity
[4:43]for humor.
[4:44]So when did you know you had a book in you?
[4:47]This is actually my second book.
[4:48]My first book is called the Art of Complaining and it was a similar idea, but more of
[4:52]a gift book.
[4:53]I've been blogging since 2011 and my great uncle, Maggie Reston, piece was a philanthropist
[5:00]and he said to me, you've so much to say, like, why don't you write a book and I'll
[5:04]publish it.
[5:05]And I knew nothing about books.
[5:06]So I sat down on my computer and wrote a book and handed it to him.
[5:10]But I weren't, and he published my 12,000 word little book and then it ended up doing
[5:17]really, really well-knock with the deal I had with him was that I was not allowed
[5:20]to make money off the book.
[5:22]And so I ended up with 2,500 books in my garage and I was like, what am I going to do
[5:30]now?
[5:31]And I just, no knowledge.
[5:32]Like I had no idea what the publishing industry was, what in each, what I knew nothing.
[5:36]And I just got on the phone and started booking myself on doing a lot of public speaking and
[5:42]a lot of touring and getting rid of the books.
[5:44]That's how I looked at it.
[5:46]And then that's how I became a writer.
[5:47]And then after that, I started going to writing conferences and learning about writing and
[5:51]writing columns and doing more and more writing.
[5:53]And then that's how it all came together.
[5:56]And you got rid of all the books.
[5:57]Oh yeah, easily.
[5:58]It ended up to distribution was my biggest problem because everybody wanted the books.
[6:02]I was so lucky.
[6:03]So I had books in my car, I had books in my purse.
[6:06]I was like, in the grocery store and people were like, aren't you the one that wrote that
[6:09]book?
[6:10]I'm like, sure, here you go.
[6:11]Hey, it's forward, or they would give me money and I just give it to the next charity
[6:15]that I've opted to.
[6:16]Wow.
[6:17]So nice.
[6:18]Yeah.
[6:19]Yeah.
[6:20]My gosh.
[6:21]Are you doing something similar with this book?
[6:22]Well, it does book.
[6:23]It's a different situation because I have a publisher and it's more formal.
[6:26]But I knew that that's what I wanted just because I'm not very good at logistics.
[6:30]And I didn't want the headache of having to track on Amazon and ship.
[6:34]And I'm just not talented that way.
[6:35]And I would for sure be misshipping everything and my books would be all wrong.
[6:40]And I have no, I'm like the Lucille ball of office management, no skills in that area.
[6:47]So why do people not stick up for themselves?
[6:49]Why do people need your book?
[6:51]Which they obviously really, really do both your books.
[6:54]What is wrong with us that we can't say what we need?
[6:57]Oh, wrong with us is strong.
[6:59]I think a lot of us are reluctant because we don't know how.
[7:02]That's what I really believe.
[7:03]And I think that if you start with the smaller things, you really can build up the muscle
[7:07]so that when it's more difficult to complain, you're used to it and you have your voice ready
[7:12]and you're less intimidated.
[7:14]I think a lot of us don't want to make waves.
[7:16]We don't want to cause trouble.
[7:18]I think we want to be liked and we want to be friends with everybody.
[7:21]But we have to remember that when we're standing up for something, it's not only for ourselves.
[7:25]It's everyone in line behind you whose life is going to get better because you spoke up.
[7:30]And I tell this to people all the time who come to me for advice.
[7:33]If you do nothing, then nothing's ever going to change.
[7:37]And that's my name.
[7:38]Yeah.
[7:39]So that's why I wrote the book.
[7:40]Well, thank you for that.
[7:42]You have some really good tips and one of the chapters I like the most was how to get somebody
[7:47]to stop using their cell phone at the dinner table because we have sort of a recurrent
[7:51]issue with that, with two tweens and my husband and everybody else.
[7:56]So what is the secret to getting somebody you're with to stop using their phone at the
[8:00]table?
[8:01]First of all, you can't use your phone at the table.
[8:03]I'm good.
[8:04]I don't.
[8:05]I use it everywhere else.
[8:06]One place I put a debt.
[8:09]Well, my story there is really about negotiation.
[8:11]I'm finding something you could live with.
[8:13]And so it maybe it's not realistic to have every single meal phone free at least at the
[8:19]beginning, but you could probably negotiate for a couple of meals a week.
[8:22]So what I suggest is coming up with what you could live with, let's say it's three meals
[8:26]a week, no phone.
[8:28]And then on the other night, you say nothing because you got your way on the three nights.
[8:33]Right.
[8:34]If that doesn't work for your family, then I would also try it with a timer.
[8:38]So 15 minutes, phone free or 20 minutes, phone free.
[8:42]And then you could have your phone at the end of dinner or at dessert or whatever works
[8:46]in your particular situation lately.
[8:48]I've been using the timer just to keep people at the table for that one.
[8:52]I was like, can we do eight minutes?
[8:54]All of us is good.
[8:56]Let's go for 10.
[8:58]And a lot of the book is about communication, well, I mean, a lot of it is communication,
[9:03]even between, even when it's not yourself, you're sticking up for it.
[9:06]So the example you gave with the mother who only, who brought a giant cupcake in a birthday
[9:11]party for her child.
[9:12]And then the rest of the kids, she didn't bring cupcakes for, tell me about that one.
[9:17]Can you imagine?
[9:18]Oh my gosh.
[9:19]So we're at a birthday party and I think the kid was turning three.
[9:25]And it comes time for the birthday cake to come out.
[9:28]And the mom brings a giant cupcake that almost looked like a cake, icing dripping everywhere
[9:34]and puts it in front of her kid and then passes around dry bakery cookies.
[9:40]I'm not sure if you have them in New York, but do you have a visual on them there?
[9:43]Almost like the chocolate chips are sitting on top.
[9:45]They're not the delicious, tall house cookies and passes those around for the other kids
[9:50]and the kids start crying because they don't understand what's happening.
[9:53]And so you have a little tiny table with all the little chairs and all the kids pointing
[9:58]at the cupcake and going nuts and I thought.
[10:00]I have to tell this woman that that's not appropriate,
[10:02]but I can't tell her now in front of everybody.
[10:05]So in my mind, I was helping her.
[10:07]I thought, I'm gonna make this situation better for her.
[10:10]So she doesn't make this mistake again.
[10:12]That's what was in my hand.
[10:13]And so I waited till I've one had left,
[10:15]and it just gently went over to her,
[10:17]and I said, look, I know this is your first kid.
[10:19]This is my third.
[10:20]And you really have to bring the same treat for everybody.
[10:23]But what I didn't know, Zibi,
[10:25]is that this poor mom was hanging on by a thread,
[10:27]and my comment to her was just the last straw.
[10:29]And she, yes, and she took the cupcake,
[10:32]and she threw it rest of it in the trash,
[10:35]and said, they are now are you happy?
[10:37]And words were exchanged, and I felt terrible.
[10:41]But on the other hand, I thought, well,
[10:44]I did everything I could to kind of make it better
[10:46]in the sense that I didn't go on and on
[10:48]on social media about her.
[10:49]I didn't talk behind her back.
[10:51]I waited till everyone was gone.
[10:52]I was as gentle as I could be.
[10:55]And you know what?
[10:56]I'm not sure if it was a mistake or not.
[10:58]I left with a giant question mark.
[10:59]Years later, I'm sitting in the movies,
[11:02]and who sits next to me, but this woman.
[11:05]And I joke in the book that I start rifling
[11:08]through my bags for dark sunglasses,
[11:10]because I'm still embarrassed I just wanted disguise.
[11:12]But she just said, I just really wanted to thank you.
[11:14]You know, I was having a dark day,
[11:16]but you were 100% right, and I did the wrong thing,
[11:18]and I should have known better.
[11:20]And you taught me valuable lesson that day.
[11:21]Wow.
[11:22]Don't you feel like so much of the behavior
[11:24]that comes out of people that's so awful
[11:26]is really just when they're the ones
[11:29]having the worst days of their lives.
[11:30]And it's not that they're bad people,
[11:32]like, and if you just can tap into that,
[11:35]it kind of makes it all better.
[11:37]Yeah.
[11:38]I think finding compassion is really key
[11:40]to getting along with people.
[11:42]That's a much better way to say what I was just trying to say.
[11:44]Thank you.
[11:45]What about people who are running late?
[11:48]Because this is another, you have tips for this as well.
[11:51]Well, my number one tip for when someone is running late
[11:53]is that it's not fixable by you.
[11:55]And no alarm clock that you're gonna get them,
[11:57]or no gadget that's gonna help them organize their keys
[11:59]is gonna help get them out the door on time to meet you.
[12:02]So that is where I talk about the serenity prayer,
[12:06]which is accepting the things you can change
[12:08]and knowing what you can't change
[12:09]and knowing the difference.
[12:10]I think it's not in front of me,
[12:11]but it's very beautiful.
[12:13]Quote, that has always resonated with me
[12:15]because I can't make you on time.
[12:19]And that's the story in the book
[12:20]where someone has a family member
[12:21]who's always, always late and your drives are crazy,
[12:24]but she can control what time dinner starts.
[12:26]So if you invite people to your house
[12:28]and you have a recurring family event,
[12:30]let's say Passover's coming up
[12:32]and every year you have the Seder
[12:33]or you have your Easter dinner
[12:35]or whatever your family celebrates, spring solstice.
[12:37]And people are always late.
[12:39]Then you don't have to wait for them.
[12:41]You can start dinner when you start dinner.
[12:43]And that's how you cope with someone who's always late.
[12:45]You don't change them.
[12:47]You just decide what you're willing to live with
[12:48]and what you're not willing to work.
[12:50]Okay.
[12:50]What about like the fake time?
[12:52]I don't think it works.
[12:53]No.
[12:54]I mean, look, whenever people have other solution alternatives
[12:58]to what I suggest,
[12:59]I always say like if it's working for you,
[13:00]you don't need me, right?
[13:01]Like if you have set up a fake time
[13:03]and you have a girlfriend who's always late for lunch
[13:05]and so you just always tell her 30 minutes early
[13:08]and it always works, then great.
[13:09]It doesn't know you like that's why I need you.
[13:12]Yeah.
[13:13]But I just think it's more about like,
[13:15]if I'm gonna have lunch with that person,
[13:16]I have a decision to make.
[13:18]Either I'm gonna bring some work with me
[13:20]and I'm gonna sit and wait for them
[13:21]or I'm gonna tell them to pick me up on their way
[13:23]so that I'm not stuck waiting
[13:25]or I'm gonna do something to modify the situation
[13:28]so that it's not final warnings and frustration
[13:30]because something internally is making them late
[13:32]and it's not for us to cycle analyze
[13:34]and we're not gonna be able to resolve it.
[13:36]So we just have to figure out the best way
[13:37]to work around it with the least amount of aggravation
[13:39]for us.
[13:40]This is all very wise advice.
[13:42]Thank you.
[13:43]You mentioned in the book that you used to go to Weight Watchers
[13:45]which I did for years and years,
[13:47]which I don't even know why I bothered because it all came back
[13:51]after I passionate five years since.
[13:54]Tell me a little bit about that.
[13:55]Oh, I don't even remember talking about it in the book.
[13:57]That's funny, but me and Weight is longer than a podcast.
[14:01]That's a journey that we could go on a retreat
[14:05]and discuss.
[14:06]That's just very long and I guess at some point
[14:07]I must have been on Weight Watchers.
[14:09]I was very young the first time.
[14:11]I think it was fifth grade,
[14:12]the first time I went on Weight Watchers
[14:14]and then there was a certain extra allotment
[14:16]like I got an extra cup of milk or something in those days.
[14:19]But I don't even remember talking about it.
[14:22]That's funny.
[14:23]Well, I feel like I have an extra sensory detector
[14:27]for that since it's something I lived with for so long.
[14:31]So you also just to switch tones a little bit.
[14:34]Most of your book was hilarious,
[14:36]but then you also referenced how you had lost over 100 people
[14:40]in your family and your extended family during the Holocaust.
[14:43]And that's a lot of people to know that you had lost.
[14:46]So I just wanted to talk to you about that
[14:48]and what part of your family
[14:50]and tell me a little more about that.
[14:52]Sure, my dad's family,
[14:55]so my baby and my daddy, both my grandparents,
[14:59]had lost siblings and also the siblings
[15:02]that were married and had children
[15:04]and then that entire branch of the family almost got,
[15:07]almost wiped out.
[15:09]So two brothers escaped to Israel
[15:11]one saw his wife and children perish, watched.
[15:16]And the other one, they were separated.
[15:19]And they somehow made it to what was Palestine at the time
[15:23]and came to Israel for the purpose of this conversation.
[15:28]So they were there when Israel was declared a state
[15:30]and they were part of the original original settlers.
[15:34]And then my grandparents came to Montreal
[15:37]and then there were some that ended up in South America.
[15:40]Where were they from originally?
[15:43]From Poland.
[15:44]Wow, I'm so sorry.
[15:46]Thank you.
[15:48]Thank you.
[15:48]Perhaps as a result or not related,
[15:51]you said in the book, how you really make a point
[15:53]of celebrating Shabbat dinner every Friday night
[15:55]if you're not like Disney on ice concert.
[15:58]So what do you think are the best parts
[16:00]about that ritual for you in your life?
[16:03]Well, actually, I can tell you where it came from
[16:04]when I was pregnant with Ezra, who's my oldest.
[16:06]He's 20 now at a very difficult time.
[16:09]I was in and out with the hospital, I was really sick.
[16:11]And I made a pledge that if I make it
[16:13]and this baby makes it,
[16:13]I will make Shabbat every week.
[16:15]Wow.
[16:16]And I've almost not missed, like almost not.
[16:18]Like I could probably less than 10 times.
[16:21]I'm really strict about it, even if we're away
[16:23]or even if like we've been known to bring a hala
[16:25]into a restaurant, if it's that kind of week
[16:28]where we're just not gonna get to dinner.
[16:30]And for sure my kids have to be home for Shabbat
[16:33]for sure 100%.
[16:34]They're allowed to bring people,
[16:35]but for sure Friday night is mine, no matter what.
[16:38]That's smart.
[16:39]Wait a minute.
[16:40]We're gonna claim that early.
[16:41]Yes.
[16:42]So it's always been like that
[16:43]because that's my oldest kid.
[16:44]So that they've grown up.
[16:45]So the most important thing to me is that's one for sure.
[16:48]We see my sister and her family and my dad
[16:50]if he's around.
[16:51]And that's the most important part
[16:53]that the cousins grow up together is just me and my sister.
[16:55]So that the cousins all grow up together
[16:58]and that they're used to seeing each other
[16:59]every Friday.
[17:00]That's the most important thing for us.
[17:01]That's so nice.
[17:02]Yeah.
[17:03]I remember once ending up at a hotel in Vegas
[17:05]and it was like four o'clock.
[17:06]And I was like,
[17:07]I called down and I was like,
[17:09]I'm gonna need a hala.
[17:11]It was a, did they joke for you?
[17:15]They did it.
[17:16]It wasn't exactly what I would call a hala,
[17:18]but it was a close enough.
[17:20]And they were deeply apologetic about the whole thing.
[17:22]How could we not find it?
[17:23]I'm like, you have every cuisine in the world here.
[17:26]Just one loaf of bread.
[17:28]That's funny.
[17:30]I've been like, we were once on a cruise
[17:32]and I made them go to the Habad cruise Friday night.
[17:34]Like I'm really not nice about it.
[17:37]You know, like there was a sign like for Jewish people,
[17:41]they're doing services and I made everybody come
[17:44]to services and have dinner.
[17:45]I feel like I do not want to be on your bedside.
[17:47]I feel like you make people do what you want to do.
[17:50]And I am gonna just like coast along with this.
[17:53]Oh, that's funny.
[17:54]Pleasant relationship.
[17:55]That's that too.
[17:57]He says that to me all the time,
[17:58]I don't want to be on your bedside.
[17:59]But usually I'm very gentle
[18:01]and you don't even realize it's happening.
[18:04]I'm not surprised about that either.
[18:07]So when you're writing, where do you like to write?
[18:10]I'm we're doing Skype and I'm looking at you
[18:11]and I think your office is that where you have to do or is that
[18:15]where you work or do you like to go out to coffee shops
[18:18]or what's your what's your ritual?
[18:20]My ritual for this particular book for my fries with that
[18:24]was I wrote in bursts.
[18:25]So I bought an apartment or I bought my dad's country
[18:28]and I just went 24 hours right sleep, right sleep, right sleep
[18:31]and then I came home.
[18:33]That's why I did it because my timeline was very, very tight
[18:35]for this book.
[18:37]I only had a few months and I was working full-time
[18:39]during the whole thing, plus the kids.
[18:42]So the only way I could figure out to do it
[18:44]was in these really intense moments.
[18:47]In general, if I'm working on an essay or doing research,
[18:50]then I could write at my desk or in a coffee shop.
[18:53]And did you like the process?
[18:54]Like, you know, you've written two books.
[18:56]So do you want to do more?
[18:58]Is there you like, what I love to do?
[18:59]Oh, yeah.
[19:00]100% I would love to do more.
[19:02]I'd love to write a narrative.
[19:04]Like, I would like to do something a bit different,
[19:06]not necessarily a self-help or prescriptive nonfiction,
[19:09]but something with more of an arc.
[19:11]OK, a narrative arc.
[19:13]Yes.
[19:13]I feel like I'm actually interested in the Holocaust.
[19:16]So it's funny that you brought that up.
[19:17]I know it's very popular topic right now,
[19:19]but that kind of theme makes my interest.
[19:22]Yeah, well, it's so personal.
[19:24]And I mean, I don't know.
[19:26]I know, I feel like I'm like, I can't accept another historical
[19:31]novel about the Holocaust.
[19:32]I have like 57 or anyway.
[19:34]Oh, yeah.
[19:35]No, then you never know.
[19:36]Because then one is really good for that.
[19:38]Right.
[19:40]So what is coming next for you now?
[19:42]Like, what do you want to do next?
[19:43]Well, right now, I'm still promoting
[19:46]fries and loving doing that.
[19:48]And I'm still talking about fries a lot.
[19:51]And I'm just, like I said, researching what my next thing
[19:54]is going to be.
[19:55]I'm going to be starting a new writing workshop this week
[20:00]student. I'm going to be taking a writing class called narrative nonfiction. So I'm hoping that
[20:04]with that and kind of the theme somewhat of been reading somehow magically a project will emerge.
[20:09]If you say it will, it will. Did you do for the publicity for this book? Did you do any tie-ins with
[20:17]like any sort of fast food or fried places or anything like that? That's funny. I didn't specifically
[20:23]wherever I went, people got fries. Like, at a lot of the talks, people served fries or had fries on display,
[20:30]which was really cute. Are you NASA good friends? Well, I mean, the point of the fries title was because
[20:37]when I was 14, we were allowed to leave campus for our little lunch. And my friend Julie went and
[20:43]ordered fries at the counter and they never came. And she said, I ordered the fries, but I'm not sure
[20:48]if they heard me. And we're all still friends. And so for the past 35 years, we've all been
[20:54]using this expression to me and standing up for yourself. And so for me, the theme and the title
[21:00]were more about standing up for yourself than the actual French fries, if that makes sense.
[21:03]So if there's a girl out there, let's just say as an example, who is just really struggling with
[21:10]being able to get the words out and be assertive and stand up for what she wants. What advice
[21:15]would you have for her? My advice would be you have to start. Even if it's not perfect,
[21:19]you have a better chance of changing things if you open your mouth. But if you don't say anything,
[21:25]then nothing is ever going to change. And do you have any advice for aspiring authors?
[21:30]You know, the advice that someone gave me was you just have to write. And I didn't think it
[21:35]was fair advice because if I knew how to write, then I would have probably been doing it.
[21:40]So I think my advice for aspiring authors would be if you're interested in a lot of
[21:45]different projects and you're not sure what to work on, just our brainstorming and making lists
[21:50]and write easy things. Lists are easy to write or how is your day journaling are easy. Those
[21:56]are easy things to write and just get in the habit of exercising those muscles so that when you're
[22:01]ready to be an author, you'll have the skills and your voice will. You'll learn your voice.
[22:05]Perfect. Well, thank you so much for sharing your advice and your great stories with everybody
[22:11]for mom's no time to read books. So thanks. Oh, thank you. Thank you. You've been listening to
[22:15]mom's and have time to read books with Zibi Owens. Please make sure to sign up for my newsletter
[22:20]at zibiowans.com to get more updates about episodes like these and also lots of live events.
[22:26]Thanks so much for listening today. Again, please go check out WeFoundTime.com. WeFoundTime.com
[22:33]For this week's new five essays from authors who have been in the podcast and also go to
[22:38]goldbelly.com and order some ninnies treats crumb kicks. They are so good and you will not regret
[22:45]it, although your clothes might be a little tight next week. I hope you all have a great week,
[22:50]but bye. Thanks. You can follow me on Instagram at moms don't have time to read books.
[22:55]Thanks so much to Steve and Ryan at Textures Sound for the Sound Editing and thank you to
[22:59]Morningmoon Productions for providing this fantastic intro and outro music.
[23:03]Thanks for listening. You can always email me at zibiatzibiowans.com.