Margarita Montimore, OONA OUT OF ORDER
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[1:55]I'm talking today to Markarita Montemore, who's the author of Una Out of Order,
[1:59]a Good Morning America Book Club pick and a USA Today bestseller.
[2:03]Her previous book is A Sleep From Day.
[2:05]She has a BFA in creative writing from Emerson College and worked for a decade in publishing and
[2:10]social media before writing full time.
[2:12]Born in Soviet Ukraine and raised in Brooklyn, she currently lives in New Jersey with her husband
[2:17]and their dog.
[2:18]Welcome, Markarita.
[2:19]Thanks for coming on Momstone.
[2:20]Have time to read books.
[2:21]Thank you so much for having me.
[2:23]I'm really excited to be part of the podcast.
[2:26]Okay, Una Out of Order.
[2:28]I already told you how much I just loved this book.
[2:30]So original, so interesting and captivating.
[2:34]How did you come up?
[2:35]First of all, tell listeners who may not know what this book is about.
[2:39]Please.
[2:39]First of all, thank you so much for all your kind words.
[2:42]So a book is about a young woman named Una.
[2:45]So her start that was her in 1982 on New Year's Eve.
[2:50]She is about to turn 19 kind of facing this crossroads in her life.
[2:54]And when the cluster extracts midnight, she passes out and wakes up in 2015 in her 51-year-old
[3:01]bodies, still a young woman on the inside.
[3:05]So, you know, she's 19 now.
[3:06]But all of a sudden, she has traveled in time, decades, to inhabit her older body.
[3:11]And she discovers that every year, the same thing is going to happen to her,
[3:15]where she's going to leap into her body at a different age,
[3:20]thereby digging her adult life out of order.
[3:22]And yeah, it's a pretty wild concept.
[3:25]The origins were kind of, it came out of me being in my late 30s
[3:30]and having those similar moments where I kind of, I didn't know what,
[3:35]what is her 30-something year old supposed to feel like?
[3:38]You know, I'm approaching 40.
[3:40]Like, and I still sometimes wake up feeling like I'm 19 on the inside.
[3:45]other days, I wake up feeling like a way old lady on the inside
[3:48]and that jarring feeling of, you know, wondering, what does it mean to, to be your age,
[3:55]to feel your age?
[3:56]And what are you supposed to have done with your life?
[3:59]And it kind of sat and thinking, and then in the back of my head,
[4:02]along with all of the pop culture influences that I grew up
[4:06]on all of the time travel, books and stories and movies and shows that I inhaled
[4:13]the kind of my entire life just one day.
[4:15]I was kind of brainstorming, talking to my husband,
[4:18]and just bouncing ideas off of home, and then it's like in a flat,
[4:21]I was like, what about a woman who lived her adult life out of order?
[4:25]And like, both of us were kind of set up and like as soon as I had that like pitch
[4:30]of like every year, she's a different age.
[4:33]And I was like, yes, that's it.
[4:34]And the title came just instantly after that.
[4:38]And I knew like that's it.
[4:40]That's the next thing that I have to write.
[4:42]And did you know Una's name from the beginning?
[4:45]Yes, I am something about because as soon as I had out of order,
[4:48]I love alliteration.
[4:50]So Una just came smoothly after.
[4:52]I don't remember if I referred to.
[4:53]I have like a little spreadsheet where any time I come across the name,
[4:57]I really like, I'll just add it to the spreadsheet.
[5:00]And I have like first name, last name,
[5:03]unisex, names, and just anything that catches my eye.
[5:07]And I don't remember if I referred to it or if I just was like,
[5:10]nope, it's gotta be Una because I know that's a name I like for a long time.
[5:14]So yeah, it just, it gelled very, very quickly from that first inception.
[5:20]And then how soon from having the idea, did you sit down and start writing?
[5:24]Or did you, or did you outline the whole thing?
[5:26]I mean, you must have had to outline it forever.
[5:28]I mean, I was thinking, didn't you?
[5:29]I was thinking, how did she keep this straight?
[5:31]You didn't?
[5:32]Oh my gosh.
[5:32]So and that's like what makes me such a crazy person.
[5:36]I actually had very, very loose notes for a couple of the weeks.
[5:42]And I really, it sounds like such an insane thing to ring it on a book like this that requires
[5:49]so much kind of intricate connections and spotting and a pretty revising.
[5:55]That was a whole other thing.
[5:57]And I wrote it quickly and had a loose timeline of like what happened just to her chronologically.
[6:05]And then what happens to her, like almost chronology, like week by week versus consecutive year
[6:11]by year.
[6:12]And that's how I sort of talk of it.
[6:14]And then I would have things that, you know, any time I try to outline a story,
[6:19]when I actually sit down to write it, it keeps off and veers in this whole other direction.
[6:24]So at week half of the initial notes that I had, I ended up kind of just starting
[6:29]because the characters, they just, they have a rule of their own.
[6:32]And then it just went on its own kind of in its own directions.
[6:37]And yeah, so I mean, the first step is less than eight months maybe,
[6:43]but then it took much longer than that and many, many, many positions,
[6:48]including rewriting like a good third of the book, probably, and having writing a whole
[6:52]week that then did not make it into the final version, writing a new leap that did.
[6:58]So yeah, I wish I was as organized as some writers I know that can map out the entire story
[7:05]and then adhere to it when they sit down and write.
[7:08]But for me, it's a little bit more chaotic, but I find magic it might get us.
[7:13]Well, I mean, whatever you're doing, it's working.
[7:17]So don't, you know, nobody said you had to outline.
[7:20]And I didn't mean to imply that you should have.
[7:22]I was just impressed by how many little things you would have had to keep track of
[7:27]between, like, even as a reader, I was like, wait, did that happen then?
[7:31]Or had this happened yet?
[7:32]And so, you know, that just that kind of mental, you know, no, no keeping.
[7:37]As I went, oh, for sure, for sure.
[7:39]And then even like the little threads that, like, say, when I would go back and revise and,
[7:44]you know, okay, let's, let's include this element kind of throughout the story.
[7:48]Then it was just a matter of like going back and like sort of leaving little breadcrumbs
[7:54]and retracing my steps.
[7:55]So yeah, I mean, of course, everybody has a different system.
[7:59]I, it's sometimes I just wish that I was much more kind of organized and regimented in that
[8:05]way because I know that writers who outline really well, they tend to have a much easier
[8:10]time revising, but I mean, I love revising too.
[8:13]I kind of permeate follow-up process of discovery.
[8:15]So like you said, whatever works.
[8:17]I wish I was one of those people who could eat whatever they wanted and not gain weight.
[8:20]But I'm just not going to be one of those people.
[8:22]So like, I'm going to take what I have.
[8:24]Do I mean, like, there are so many things I wish that I did differently, but I don't know.
[8:28]This is just who I have become.
[8:30]Maybe it's the same type of thing.
[8:32]I feel you.
[8:33]I feel I'm one of those people too.
[8:36]So how much did this timeline dovetail with any of your own experiences?
[8:41]Because I found myself wondering how old you were when I was reading it,
[8:44]and you're obviously not as old as Una.
[8:47]How did you decide when to start it?
[8:49]Like, was there an age you wanted her to be at a certain time, or how did you figure it out?
[8:55]Yeah.
[8:56]So I wanted, initially, I actually, one of the reasons I set out to write this book,
[9:01]I thought a lot more of it would take place in the 80s, because I feel like I would
[9:06]born 10 years too late.
[9:08]So I made Una older than I was, so that she could be a teenager in the 80s.
[9:14]And the way that, again, the best way plans, as I wrote it,
[9:18]it just turned out that more of her lease took her to the 90s and the end of the subsequent decade.
[9:25]So I also wanted to, I wanted her to experience kind of a broader range of ages.
[9:32]So I did have to take her up older than I know, like 12, 13 years older than I was,
[9:40]where I could still kind of write to certain experiences of like a certain age,
[9:46]but at the same time, you know, still kind of recapture the different kind of decades
[9:51]of her life and the different moments and kind of the phases of life, but still keep like a
[9:56]a personal scope of, you know, chill.
[10:00]her coming of age as as a woman really but also kind of through all of these
[10:06]different kind of bigger milestones in her life. I feel like you used music so much
[10:11]throughout the whole book. Like I was like I was like this author must love
[10:15]music. Do you love music or was it just a device that you used in the book? For me
[10:20]I would say like my teens and twenties is where music was like air for me and I
[10:27]just it was such a huge part of my identity and it's such a big part of the
[10:32]way that I would connect with other people and you know I would just I would
[10:36]have friendships form around dance that we love the clubs that we went to the
[10:40]music that we danced to and so for me it's very much kind of I would say
[10:46]because she starts out as an 18 year old. It made so much sense for her to
[10:52]also have that deep connection with music and and have it be such a
[10:57]part of her identity and it wasn't a conscious effort either it was just I
[11:02]it just sort of came to me sort of out of not out of nowhere but it was just
[11:07]like this is who she is and even like some of the bands that she's in too
[11:11]like obviously we have a lot of clap in her taste and you know most of what
[11:17]she loves I love too but at the same time certain things like the fact that
[11:21]her favorite band of silver underground like I don't know where that came
[11:24]from and they're not you know they're gonna appreciate but don't listen to it
[11:28]Donna's I was like okay but this is this is what she's telling me so I'm just I'm
[11:33]just a note keeper here like I just got to get this down and you know shared
[11:37]this is like who she is. No it's so funny I just have so I interviewed Betsy
[11:43]Johnson earlier today about her memoir Betsy a memoir and I read both of your
[11:48]books in close succession and in her book she did all a lot of the real things
[11:52]that that who did in your book so she actually like married somebody from
[11:58]the velvet underground and then and she designed closer than and she like
[12:03]sold her clothes in Patricia Field and then I'm reading your book and I'm like
[12:06]this is so crazy it's like all worlds coming together anyway. Wow I love this
[12:11]little crossover moment and I I love her as a colorful creative figure too so
[12:17]that's all so you guys are just a random aside but so a lot of the themes
[12:24]that you write about are like loss of memory, loss of like having to find
[12:31]yourself again having to find your path again and I read in one interview
[12:34]that you attribute this to that sense of not totally belonging being an
[12:39]immigrant as a child and maybe correct me if I'm not getting the
[12:42]strike but there was an essay when you said because you
[12:44]immigrated to America when you were four from Soviet Ukraine
[12:47]and that being straddling two different cultures and speaking Russian
[12:51]in English you've always felt like a little sense of
[12:53]other nests and that that's how the same came into the book so just talk more
[12:58]about that now that I've barely been able to say that right but
[13:01]don't know you you actually got it 100% nailed it no I
[13:06]I think that there is that feeling of you know kind of where
[13:11]where does it do I you know where do I belong you know like
[13:14]I came from this other culture that's so very much part of my heritage and
[13:18]especially you know that that my parents growing up were very
[13:22]so rooted in and made sure that I I knew where I came from and
[13:27]so had certain like traditions and parts of my culture that
[13:31]remained with me and at the same time of course you know I'm learning the
[13:35]language because I am assimilating and but I always have that
[13:39]perspective of comparing like where and from versus where I am or even
[13:44]I would say it's even more strongly within language
[13:47]have to express yourself in different languages and just the way that
[13:52]certain words even to this day even though my Russian is so rusty some words
[13:56]just will not express what I want to say as well as a specific
[14:01]Russian word will and it's so strange even to this day that that happens
[14:06]but I think it's not just a sense of belonging but
[14:09]it's in a broader sense of that search for home and that
[14:14]feeling of kind of being and it can be it can be described as
[14:21]that feeling of belonging it can be the physical place it can be that
[14:24]emotional place where you feel at ease with who you are
[14:29]so I think that I I'd like to explore that in my story because I feel like
[14:34]we're always looking for something you know we never stop
[14:37]we're never fully formed we're always evolving we're always whatever it is
[14:41]that we achieve we always set new goals or new
[14:45]quest for ourselves so for me I kind of
[14:48]encompass that as that feeling of home that you know what is it that's
[14:53]that's missing in our lives and that you know what what
[14:57]kind of sense of completion are we looking for and how are we trying to
[15:02]get about it so and you know again it can stem from
[15:05]our identity it can stem from like our external circumstances and usually
[15:10]my third a little bit of both I thought it was so interesting in the book how
[15:14]it was only her mother that you let into the secret right like that their mother
[15:18]knew what was going on but no one else and how that
[15:21]relationship had to be translated over time
[15:24]right right and yeah then and because some extent also can see
[15:28]later on because she needed to have one at least one
[15:33]constant and you know certainly for me I would say
[15:37]my whole life my mother has been that for me and so
[15:41]there certainly were kind of some parallels I think it was also an interesting
[15:45]way to explore that mother daughter parent child dynamics where
[15:49]you know both everybody has something that they can
[15:54]some wisdom that they can impart and certainly a parent
[15:58]is the one that has more of that wisdom and the life experiences but
[16:02]as a child you know there are certain times because of her unusual
[16:05]circumstances una is older or she has a different sort of wisdom because
[16:10]she's seen the future she knows what actually happened so
[16:13]you know to use that time travel as a metaphor of kind of
[16:17]what a parent and child can learn from each other and how that can
[16:21]affect their their relationship and have their relationship evolve where
[16:26]you know una is that so key teenager at point you know at
[16:31]times in her life but it'll be jarring for her mother because
[16:35]externally she will be completely different even you know considerably
[16:39]older and so to have that and also just that sense of
[16:44]growing with another person and trying to accommodate
[16:48]their kind of evolution as an individual that's awesome
[16:53]so how did you become a writer to begin with
[16:56]like I know this isn't your first book but I know you worked in publishing
[17:00]but that's so vague so how did like how did you
[17:03]when did you know you were a writer and what led you down this path
[17:06]all the rest oh I mean I knew I knew at 16
[17:11]really I didn't probably even before that in my world little stories and poems
[17:15]but I took a creative writing class when I was 16 that
[17:18]completely just it blew my mind it kind of took me from just
[17:22]a writing of something I do in my third time to I have
[17:27]things that I want to share I want to learn how to save things and express
[17:31]myself through this medium and I want to tell stories and
[17:35]you know I've read I've been a book or my whole life
[17:38]that but that was when I I knew I was curious about it so I was a creative
[17:41]writing major in college and you know they don't exactly come knocking down
[17:47]the door when you graduate like we're looking for creative writing
[17:50]majors we've got a nice figure salary for you full
[17:54]benefits please just come write whatever you want so
[17:57]I kind of gristed for a little bit not you know just
[18:01]blue that I had so so develop a career and that took me from publishing to
[18:05]social media to meeting a really really wonderful man
[18:10]who said hey you know if you want to write books come
[18:14]move to the suburbs and you know when when I
[18:17]got married to my husband I left my career in social media and
[18:21]put on some freelance editorial work but really focused full-time on
[18:25]writing books and that's when I could I admire the writers who are able to
[18:31]have full-time careers and families and or even part-time
[18:36]come here and families and so write books because for me
[18:40]I am so all in on whatever it is that I'm focused on so when it was my career
[18:46]I was all in on what I was doing work-wise
[18:49]and I knew that in order to like really write and
[18:53]the right to the best my abilities I needed to be all in I needed to have that
[18:58]full-time like be in my cocoon and create
[19:01]things and I've forced very very fortunate I've been able to do that for
[19:05]the last five years now so yeah I'm incredible
[19:09]and so what's coming next do you have more book ideas are you just going to
[19:13]write this I mean were you and also were you just so excited
[19:16]when this was picked as a GMA book club pick like what what is this whole
[19:19]thing been like I don't want to skip forward too fast what was it like when
[19:22]this actually came out and you got this attention and all the rest
[19:25]oh my gosh I've been incredible because I mean
[19:31]it took I've published my first book and I wrote another book in between
[19:35]that book and Luna that I just set aside and didn't do anything with and
[19:40]so and during the years you know it took four I think four and a half years
[19:44]during that time I saw a lot of writers that I knew you know get agents and
[19:49]editors and book feels and I one writer I knew hit the New York Times best
[19:53]seller list so I saw how what a tough road that was and how many kind of
[19:59]obstacles
[20:00]you had to serve out and how tough the odds were.
[20:03]So every time I kind of crossed another hurdle,
[20:07]for me it was just I tried to be very present
[20:11]and grateful about every one of those moments,
[20:13]whether it was getting the agent,
[20:14]whether it was getting that folks deal.
[20:16]And so everything on top of that has just been kind of,
[20:22]it just blows my mind on levels that I truly, truly never
[20:27]affected.
[20:27]I mean, when I found out about the morning America,
[20:31]it was just, I always think of this line
[20:34]from my so-called life.
[20:35]It's like a sun gun to your brain.
[20:37]And that's how I felt like, oh my God,
[20:39]like there's been so many moments where I have true
[20:43]than like, is this real life?
[20:45]Like, no, but really, it have I drifted off
[20:49]to a parallel world or a dream state.
[20:51]Like, is this really my life?
[20:53]And what I've heard from other offices,
[20:57]especially during their debut year,
[20:59]the biggest issue for them has been that it goes by
[21:03]in such a blurb, they wish that they had time
[21:06]to really stop and enjoy it when worried about it less.
[21:09]And I always, I try to keep that in my mind.
[21:12]So that every time something wonderful happens,
[21:15]whether it's just somebody posting about the book
[21:17]on Instagram or seeing my book on a time before a billboard,
[21:21]but I stop and just really go like, wow,
[21:24]I feel so lucky and I'm so grateful for this.
[21:28]That's amazing.
[21:29]It's so nice to see like all this hard work rewarded, you know?
[21:33]I mean, not everybody can be in Times Square,
[21:35]but how great to appreciate it so much.
[21:38]And just, I don't know, it's just really awesome.
[21:40]Well, and that was the thing too.
[21:41]I knew that there are no guarantees
[21:43]and I really tried to kind of remind myself
[21:47]that essentially I'm signing up
[21:49]to be a professional lottery winner.
[21:51]And all I can do is like, you know, every book,
[21:54]every story is a ticket.
[21:56]And you know, you keep getting piling up those tickets
[21:59]and hope that like something is gonna break through.
[22:02]So yeah, I mean, of course it takes hard work and dedication,
[22:07]but I will never discount the fact that luck
[22:10]also plays a factor.
[22:12]And you know, I so fortunate that my number has worked off.
[22:17]So does this mean you wanna keep playing lottery?
[22:19]Like, are you gonna write more books or are you gonna just...
[22:21]Oh, yes.
[22:22]Yeah, 100%.
[22:23]I go back to your earlier question.
[22:25]I have a lot of stories, ideas in mind.
[22:28]And right now it's just about narrowing down.
[22:31]What is it that I think over the last couple of years,
[22:34]I have started part of, I kid you not at least five
[22:40]different books.
[22:41]And one of them is sequels to Matt of Order.
[22:44]And funny enough, as much as I don't outline,
[22:46]I do have a loose outline for about reporters
[22:50]of another una book.
[22:52]I don't know when that's gonna happen.
[22:55]I know that her story is not over,
[22:57]but there's definitely more that, you know,
[23:01]I want to explore in the una book.
[23:03]At the same time, I also want to write something
[23:06]that is different, that standalone, you know,
[23:09]kind of explore new characters, new places, new events.
[23:14]So I think the next couple of months
[23:17]are gonna be really, really kind of...
[23:19]So I'm back into that writer to tune
[23:21]and figuring out like, okay, what are we gonna like,
[23:24]really, really buckle down and develop Matt.
[23:27]But I'm so excited.
[23:28]And yeah, this is like my life's work.
[23:32]I feel like this is what I have been put here to do.
[23:36]So the fact that, you know, I'm able to get a readership
[23:40]and have people actually, you know,
[23:43]read and enjoy my work is tremendous.
[23:46]So awesome.
[23:47]I know you've already included a lot of this just now,
[23:49]but do you have any specific advice
[23:51]for aspiring authors?
[23:54]Well, I think it was really, really comes down
[23:57]to tenacity and, you know, very,
[24:01]however much you think you're gonna be rejected short.
[24:05]There are some lucky ones that have just the right story,
[24:09]at the right time or know the right people
[24:11]and are able to kind of make it through.
[24:12]But you really, it's so few and far between most people,
[24:16]they really hustle.
[24:17]And they, you know, I, of all the writers I know
[24:20]that have made it and has gotten published,
[24:23]nobody has just kind of lived through.
[24:26]They've all worked so tremendously hard.
[24:29]They put in the hours, they've revived.
[24:32]I say writing is revising more than it is actually drafting.
[24:36]So you need to, however many times,
[24:39]you think that you're gonna need to revisit that work
[24:42]and tighten it and polish it.
[24:44]Double triple quadruple it.
[24:46]I mean, and get used to people saying no
[24:49]because it's gonna happen.
[24:51]And hundreds of people said no,
[24:54]before somebody said yes.
[24:56]I mean, we're like, we're talking over 200 agents
[24:59]come down earlier versions of the manuscript.
[25:01]And that's what revision and sheer stubbornness can do.
[25:07]You know, you really have to believe in what you're doing.
[25:10]And then I would also say find that,
[25:11]find your tribe, find that support system
[25:14]of other writers of friends who will just be there
[25:18]to prop you up because there are gonna be moments
[25:21]where you feel like, oh, like, they can't go any further
[25:24]with it and you can't keep trying.
[25:27]But I always think of this cartoon
[25:31]where it's this man who is digging with a pickaxe
[25:35]in a mine and there's like two of them
[25:38]and the one on top, he's like, just had it
[25:41]and he's like, that's it, I'm done and give up
[25:43]and he turns around and then you see in the next frame
[25:47]that like, if he just kept like,
[25:49]there's like a pile of diamonds, like maybe six inches
[25:52]if he kept digging.
[25:55]So I always think of that that like, I can't ever give up
[25:59]because that treasure might just be a little bit further
[26:04]out of reach and I'll never know.
[26:06]It's like that's the only kind of ultimate rejection
[26:09]is if you kind of reject that dream yourself
[26:13]and give up on it.
[26:15]So yeah, really you have to keep going
[26:18]and you always have to keep learning
[26:21]here, you know, reading, writing, you know,
[26:23]there's however good you think you are
[26:26]and you can always get better.
[26:27]And however bad you think you are,
[26:29]you can always, you can always get better.
[26:32]So, you know, just really be in it for the long haul
[26:35]and do it for the love.
[26:37]Like I think everybody has a story in them or stories in them
[26:40]and find the story that only you can pile
[26:44]in this specific way you can tell it.
[26:46]Thank you.
[26:47]That's so awesome.
[26:47]That's great advice and thank you for your book
[26:50]and for all your time and insights.
[26:53]And thank you.
[26:53]I really appreciate it.
[26:54]Thank you.
[26:55]Wow, such a pleasure.
[26:57]No, thank you for having me.
[26:58]Of course.
[26:59]Thank you.
[27:00]You've been listening to Moms and have time to read books
[27:03]with Zibi Owens.
[27:04]Please make sure to sign up for my newsletter
[27:06]at zibiowens.com to get more updates about episodes
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[27:12]Thanks for listening.
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[27:26]And go check out the we found time.com essays.
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[27:31]and think and feel and all the good things.
[27:34]Have a great week.
[27:35]You can follow me on Instagram at Moms.
[27:37]Don't have time to read books.
[27:39]Thanks so much to Steve and Ryan,
[27:40]like Texture Sound for the Sound Editing.
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[27:48]You could always email me at zibiatzibiowens.com.