Valerie & Lynne Constantine, THE WIFE STALKER
[0:08]Hi, I'm Zivi Owens, and you're listening to the award-winning podcast,
[0:11]Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books. Thanks so much for listening to my podcast.
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[1:15]Check out Modern Majang and get this set. Why not? I'm here today with Lynn and Valerie
[1:20]Constantine. They are the duo behind the pen name Live Constantine. Their debut thriller, The Last
[1:25]Mrs. Parish, was a Reese Witherspend book club selection, a people magazine book of the week,
[1:30]a target book club selection, and is in development for television. Their second book, The Last
[1:34]Time I Saw You, was published by Harper Collins and is also in development for film. Now they've
[1:39]just released The Wife Stalker, and I'll tell you a little bit about each one of them. So Lynn
[1:44]Constantine is an internationally best-selling author who writes conspiracy thrillers under the
[1:49]pen name L.C. Shaw, and also of course psychological thrillers with her sister under the
[1:54]the pen name Live Constantine. Following me still, I hope so. Lynn is a former marketing executive
[1:59]and has a master's degree in business from Johns Hopkins University. She lives with her family
[2:03]and two large dogs in Connecticut. Valerie has a degree in English literature. Early in her career,
[2:08]she served as a White House assistant in the president's scheduling an advanced office planning
[2:14]presidential trips and travel and is visited over 44 in countries. She has a degree in English
[2:20]literature, which I already said so to ignore that, and she currently lives in Maryland with her
[2:24]husband. So welcome to everybody for guys and loves that. I do books all your different names
[2:30]and pen names and whatever. So I'm here with Lynn and Valerie Constantine, known together as
[2:37]Live Constantine who wrote The Wife Stalker. So welcome guys. Thank you. Let's start with this pen
[2:44]name situation. Okay, go with the pen name situation. When Lynn and I actually wrote a book quite
[2:51]a while ago together and we used our real names. Well, of course, our maiden names,
[2:56]Constantine, Lynn Constantine and Valerie Constantine. When we got the publishing contract with
[3:02]Harper Collins for the last Mrs. Parish, we went to lunch with our agent and with the editor.
[3:08]And that was one of the things that we talked about that day was what we were going to do
[3:12]in terms of names for the book. And so of course, the first thing we said was, well, we
[3:17]wanted to be Valerie Constantine and Lynn Constantine. And they said, oh, that'll just take up too
[3:24]much room on the cover. We don't think so. And they were worried about sometimes it could be off
[3:30]putting to readers to see two names on a book, you know, that they just felt like a lot of times it
[3:35]looked better and a beautiful one. Yeah. So then we said, well, why don't we just use our initials?
[3:42]They'll make it LV, L for Lynn, V for Valerie, LV Constantine. And one of them said,
[3:50]there's an initial fatigue, right? Which there was when you think about a great expression,
[3:56]right? I have not heard that expression, right? Yeah, right. There were all of those for a long
[4:01]time. There were all of those and those come back. Right. So we kind of looked at each other.
[4:08]And I said, well, why don't we just take those two initials and we'll put a vowel in between them?
[4:14]How about like live? And they both said, oh, great. Yeah. And we, and we liked it. And then
[4:21]yeah. So that's how live came about. I'll let you talk about your other name that you hide behind.
[4:28]Yeah. Oh, right. Right. It could be that we're in the witness protection.
[4:31]I wonder. I wonder. I wonder. I can't really say. So then when I decided that I wanted to write
[4:39]this conspiracy thriller series, which is quite different from what Valerie and I write because we're
[4:43]right psychological thrillers. And we talked about names for that. And, and, and I agree when they said
[4:48]Lynn Constantine is so similar to live Constantine, that, you know, it's the worry was that if people
[4:54]picked up the network book, they would think it was another psychological thriller and be disappointed
[5:00]because, you know, you want to give readers obviously what they're expecting. So then I was going
[5:04]to use my dog's name. Oh, my son. Well, maybe Grayson and the park and the other dog. And I thought
[5:11]he would be upset. So then I was going to go by. Oh, then they said, why don't we do initials? So
[5:16]the initial fatigue was over. Oh, my gosh. So it's Lynn, LC is for Lynn Constantine and Shaw is
[5:23]an abbreviation of Open Shaw, which is my married name. So, wow. Yes. So that's how that came
[5:28]about. So we still have lots of options for other names for other boys. Not to keep talking
[5:32]about this, but why wouldn't you just be Lynn Open Shaw? It just didn't sound that exciting.
[5:39]I don't know. Even my husband's like, I don't use Open Shaw. Shaw sounds better.
[5:43]Okay. All right. Okay. Whatever. Well, it's working.
[5:46]Yeah, it's going on. The marketing is working. Yeah. Right. I think the pen names are fantastic.
[5:51]But I don't know. You just don't hear about pen names as often as I feel like in the past.
[5:56]No, you're right. I mean, my husband jokes and says, I don't know who I'm sleeping with tonight.
[5:59]What are you doing? Who are you? So I'll be pretty exciting for him.
[6:03]So what is the wife's doctor about? So the wife's doctor takes place in West
[6:08]Poor Connecticut. And it is about a woman whose husband is just coming out of a deep depression
[6:13]that has affected their marriage. And she thinks that it's because he is getting healthy,
[6:18]but what she doesn't realize until it's too late, it's that it's the woman running the retreat
[6:24]in health center that's making his spirits perk. And they have two small children. And so
[6:31]when he leaves her for Piper, she begins to look into Piper's background and is horrified to
[6:37]discover a wake of dead husbands in Piper's past. And is, you know, so she has to try to
[6:44]save her family before it's too late. I'm never letting my husband go to a yoga school.
[6:50]So let's just back up before we started changing all of your names to when you even began
[6:58]writing and what made you start writing and why these two different types of books, psychological
[7:02]thrillers and the other. I'm sure. So we've always been big readers. And Val and I are 13 years apart.
[7:08]So we didn't really grow up necessarily together. I mean, we did, but you know, we were in different
[7:13]different generations. But when I have the same parents, same parents, we have two brothers in
[7:18]between. Okay. So then when I became a teenager is really when we got close and we and my mother
[7:23]and her sister, we all used to read the same book. We've got a library and pick a book out and we
[7:27]would talk about it. And we were reading a lot of ethnic fiction at the time. A lot of stories,
[7:32]you know, Chinese, Italian, Irish, Jewish. And so later, I guess I was in my 20s at that point,
[7:39]maybe in your 30s when we wrote Circle Dance. We were talking, we said, you know, there are
[7:44]no books about Greek families. And we, you know, we wanted, we neither of us are married to Greeks.
[7:51]And so we know our children really were not going to have the same experience. We had growing up
[7:54]in our, and our grandmother had was gone. From Greece. And so that we said, let's, well,
[8:00]then let's write it. So I went and bought a book cut, had a right and sell your first novel.
[8:04]I guess how to books on everything that's any problem. I'm like, okay, let me get
[8:09]Amazon. It wasn't Amazon then probably. And so we read the book and we began writing. We were
[8:15]working and we would get together once a week. And there was no internet or email at that point.
[8:20]So, you know, we print our pages and go over them weekly. And then I think after about a
[8:26]half a year, six months, we said, let's just take a week off from work. And Valerie brought her
[8:31]huge desktop over to my house. Oh my God. Put it on, you know, and we worked and worked and we,
[8:36]and we finished it. And we thought we were going to be on Oprah. And it was going to, you know,
[8:40]because I'm moving everywhere. Right. And so we got, we eventually got a small publisher,
[8:44]Greek publisher. And it was came out in 2000, right? I think so. Because I hit my kids
[8:51]2000 right when I had my twins. And right. And then we, and then I moved to Connecticut. And so,
[8:56]what were your day jobs at that point? I was working in banking. So I was a vice president
[9:00]of marketing for, I was a city bank. And then I ended up with a couple other banks. And you were
[9:05]with, and I was working for, I was working in ministry for a large church. And so then I moved.
[9:11]And we did a little bit of marketing with it. And we just kind of, I homeschooled my kids for
[9:15]five years. And so that took all my creative energy. I really hadn't left at that point. And so it
[9:20]was, I guess, what are we in? I don't even, I never know what year we're in because we're always ahead
[9:25]with the books. We're in 2020. So I think it was about 2014. I went to thriller fest. And my
[9:32]kids were back at school. They were in school at that point. And I decided that I wanted to finish
[9:37]the thriller. I had begun, which was the network that is now out. And so I told Valerie about it. And
[9:43]I told her you've got to come. I got very inspired at thriller fest, just meeting other
[9:47]writers and going to the classes. So I finished my book. And Val came with me the next year and said,
[9:52]I think, you know, I'd like to collaborate again. So we began writing together again at that point.
[9:57]Right. And why did you homeschool your kids?
[10:00]Well, I mean, like with the coronavirus looming and the thought of the school's closing and having all my kids here.
[10:07]I'm like, oh my gosh.
[10:08]Yes, you can.
[10:09]Oh, Linda and twins.
[10:11]Right, yeah.
[10:12]Oh, okay.
[10:13]My eldest kids are twins.
[10:14]Yeah.
[10:15]We were in Maryland at the time.
[10:16]And when I had them, most people were putting kids in private school.
[10:20]So I was in a moms group.
[10:22]Another woman was telling me she was going to homeschool.
[10:24]And so I started looking into it.
[10:26]And I really, what I my primary reason was I liked the idea of the bonding that you have with your children of them becoming being more reliant on you in those early years than their peers because a lot of the research said what ends up happening as a five or six year old child goes into a classroom of 20.
[10:42]They maybe get 10 minutes of individualized attention from the teacher.
[10:46]So their peers opinions become really paramount to them.
[10:51]And so the research showed that a lot of children who were homeschooled in early age were less impervious to peer pressure when they were older.
[10:59]And so I just thought, well, that's, and I wanted to give them a classical education.
[11:03]I wanted to do more living books and that sort of thing.
[11:05]So then you bought how to homeschool your kids.
[11:07]I did.
[11:08]I did.
[11:09]I did a lot of, you know, we went through tons of curriculum and it was, it was great.
[11:12]I mean, there were obviously ups and downs.
[11:14]And I don't know about your twins, but mine fought a lot.
[11:17]And that was the hardest part because it was just.
[11:20]twins, the same sex or they did.
[11:22]Same.
[11:23]And then I think sometimes I think that and they're very different and that was hard.
[11:27]So there were just times that was pulling my hair out like, okay, you got to get along.
[11:31]So it was, it was good.
[11:33]I don't, I don't regret it.
[11:34]I don't know.
[11:35]They think I'd kind of run them for math.
[11:36]But they're doing okay.
[11:38]Now like the rest of it is good.
[11:40]And they're close now.
[11:41]So it was, it was a good time, but it was not easy.
[11:44]It was, it was a very time consuming.
[11:46]It was.
[11:47]And then my daughter turns out has dyslexia.
[11:49]So that's why we went through a ton of reading.
[11:51]You know, so then that was what happened.
[11:53]She needed to go to school.
[11:54]And then he was by himself and he wanted to go.
[11:57]And now both in college now.
[11:58]Yeah.
[11:59]So I'm doing well.
[12:00]Yes.
[12:01]Wow.
[12:02]And now you're a smash hit.
[12:03]So it all worked out great.
[12:05]So how do you two come up with the ideas for all your books?
[12:08]That is one of the most fun parts.
[12:10]And we, and usually we're traveling when that happens or that's just the way it's happened.
[12:15]And maybe because that's the time that we're together.
[12:18]And it's just the two of us.
[12:19]We're not.
[12:20]It's Lynn.
[12:21]Isn't it my house with family around her?
[12:22]I'm not at hers.
[12:23]So just Lynn and me and mine.
[12:27]And so we just start talking about maybe, you know, common circumstance or something.
[12:36]That it is a very, you know, that happens all of the time.
[12:39]And then, well, how could we, how could we change that or turn that on its head?
[12:44]And it really evolves over months.
[12:47]And it's usually, we usually talk about the next book when we're at the very end of the book we're working on.
[12:54]We started last night to talk about the next book and we're right.
[12:59]We're heavily in the midst of book number four.
[13:03]And it was really difficult.
[13:04]We just couldn't because we were so.
[13:06]Our heads are so in this place right now.
[13:09]And we couldn't go to the next place.
[13:11]And sometimes it's organic.
[13:12]It's not always sitting down to say like for the last Mrs. Parish.
[13:15]I happen to be visiting Val at the time.
[13:17]And we had written another book that we put in the drawer before Mrs. Parish.
[13:21]And we were just talking about these women who target rich men for the sole purpose.
[13:26]Not because they fall in love with them, but because they want the lifestyle.
[13:29]And we were saying, gosh, wouldn't it be nice if instead of it turning out the way they wanted this happen?
[13:35]And we looked at each other and said, that's what we had to write.
[13:38]So we knew the twist from the beginning with that one.
[13:41]And then the next book that we wrote, the twist changed.
[13:44]Actually, the killer changed in our book on a second or third round.
[13:48]So it's different every time.
[13:49]And I think our process has evolved as well.
[13:51]So, you know, we used to be more strict about assignments.
[13:54]But now I might be writing.
[13:56]And then I'll say, all right, I'm bored of this.
[13:58]And I'll email and see.
[13:59]You want to finish this chat.
[14:00]And I'll do so.
[14:01]And vice versa.
[14:02]So it's become a lot easier.
[14:04]Yeah, a lot more collaborative.
[14:06]I definitely am.
[14:07]Definitely.
[14:08]Yeah.
[14:09]And I'm impressed.
[14:10]How do you get your writing style to be like, how does it come together so perfectly?
[14:13]Can't tell when it starts.
[14:14]I mean, it's kind of amazing.
[14:16]It is.
[14:17]Yeah.
[14:18]We must have similar writing styles at some level.
[14:21]But I think when Lynn said she'll begin writing a chapter and I might end it or vice versa.
[14:27]And so our writing is completely interspersed with each others.
[14:32]And then when we edit,
[14:34]that really brings a whole another level to it that makes it mesh even more.
[14:40]It's like you're both perfect ghost writers too.
[14:43]Right?
[14:44]Yeah.
[14:45]Because as you feel so good, you can emulate someone else's voice.
[14:48]Yes.
[14:49]Right.
[14:50]Because you have to both somehow or find a middle ground or something.
[14:52]No, it's true.
[14:53]And it's funny because when we're in the middle of a project too,
[14:55]we even begin to think alike.
[14:57]So to the crazy things, we'll try to come up with a character name.
[15:00]And sometimes we'll the same thing or an idea.
[15:02]And we'll say, well, we think they should be.
[15:04]And we'll both say twins at the same time.
[15:06]Okay.
[15:07]Well, so it's like a little magical.
[15:09]It's like a little magical.
[15:10]It's super exciting.
[15:11]I mean,
[15:12]I mean,
[15:13]a couple times we've had disagreement.
[15:15]We definitely,
[15:16]I mean,
[15:17]I think that's gotten better because we instead of having a set opinion,
[15:22]we bring things to the table and say,
[15:23]all right,
[15:24]let's discuss what if this would if that.
[15:26]So it's not like well,
[15:27]I think it should be such and such.
[15:28]So we've had a couple times when we had them,
[15:30]we would take it to our editor.
[15:31]We don't say who's opinion is who's right.
[15:34]Yeah.
[15:35]We just say which.
[15:36]And then you know,
[15:37]neutral third party key.
[15:39]And we hope that each of our, you know,
[15:41]we win.
[15:42]And what was it like when you got,
[15:44]when blasphemous as parish got picked as a racist book club pick?
[15:47]I mean,
[15:48]so we tell you the moment you found out.
[15:50]Like,
[15:51]like,
[15:52]take me through the whole.
[15:53]You can.
[15:54]Okay.
[15:55]So we were,
[15:56]in November, I think.
[15:57]I can't remember.
[15:58]October.
[15:59]Anyway,
[16:00]we were in an Apple us at a book club.
[16:01]And I got a phone call from our agent and she said,
[16:04]do you and Valerie have some time to talk to Emily is our editor?
[16:08]And I was like, are we in trouble?
[16:10]But she's like,
[16:11]oh no,
[16:12]yes,
[16:13]everything is fine.
[16:14]So she said our economy.
[16:15]So we were back to Valerie's house.
[16:16]And her husband was sitting there around the kitchen table
[16:18]and we were on a landline.
[16:19]We each were on one.
[16:20]So they said,
[16:21]are you sitting down?
[16:22]So we said,
[16:23]yes.
[16:24]And they said,
[16:25]you've been,
[16:26]we've been picked for a reason.
[16:27]So of course we were like,
[16:28]you know,
[16:29]screams of joy.
[16:30]And her husband is looking at us like,
[16:32]what?
[16:33]So then they said,
[16:34]but listen,
[16:35]you can't tell anyone.
[16:36]Oh no.
[16:37]They were like two weeks,
[16:38]which we had,
[16:39]or like,
[16:40]or the time before it was done.
[16:41]It was like a month
[16:42]because they went out to the middle.
[16:43]Yeah,
[16:44]they said because you know,
[16:45]they don't want anybody to know
[16:46]and you can't even tell your husbands
[16:47]and don't even Google her.
[16:48]Don't write.
[16:49]So,
[16:50]Colin,
[16:51]my brother-in-law
[16:52]is a doll,
[16:53]but he's very loose-lipped.
[16:54]So,
[16:55]he can't cause his husband.
[16:56]Yeah,
[16:57]so we hang up the phone
[16:58]and he says,
[16:59]what?
[17:00]And I was like,
[17:01]oh,
[17:02]they're going to do an article about us.
[17:03]And he just looked
[17:04]and was like,
[17:05]okay,
[17:06]so it was,
[17:07]it was really exciting,
[17:08]but we were,
[17:09]I mean,
[17:10]we were bursting,
[17:11]but we couldn't,
[17:12]we couldn't wait to share it
[17:13]or tell anybody that.
[17:14]So every day we were waiting
[17:15]for the,
[17:16]for the sign
[17:17]and then the announcement
[17:18]and then,
[17:19]you know,
[17:20]it was amazing.
[17:21]It was thrilling.
[17:22]And Sean,
[17:23]you know,
[17:24]no,
[17:25]no idea that that was even a possibility
[17:28]for the book or whatever.
[17:30]So it was,
[17:31]I mean,
[17:32]to see,
[17:33]and then she,
[17:34]I was just getting to know how to do Instagram.
[17:36]And so she,
[17:37]she did a story.
[17:38]And so I said to my daughter,
[17:39]what am I supposed to do?
[17:40]She's like,
[17:41]well,
[17:42]you have to like it,
[17:43]mom,
[17:44]and you know,
[17:45]send her a message,
[17:46]which I did.
[17:47]And she wrote back to me.
[17:48]And then I was like,
[17:49]so starstruck,
[17:50]like a teenager,
[17:51]I'm like,
[17:52]this is really exciting.
[17:53]And did you ever meet her?
[17:54]We did not.
[17:55]She was,
[17:56]you know, it was close to Christmas.
[17:57]So they said,
[17:58]she didn't have time,
[17:59]but maybe one day,
[18:00]I don't know,
[18:01]we love her.
[18:02]So,
[18:03]what happened after,
[18:04]and I'll stop trying,
[18:05]I wanted to talk more about the book,
[18:06]but when you become
[18:07]a racist book pick,
[18:08]they ask you to put the little logo on your book.
[18:10]Yes.
[18:11]So it has the seal.
[18:12]And now,
[18:13]Barnes and Noble has all of them.
[18:14]It's wonderful.
[18:15]Yeah,
[18:16]I said,
[18:17]I took a picture
[18:18]of them.
[18:19]I have to post that.
[18:20]Yeah,
[18:21]it does great.
[18:22]I mean,
[18:23]so we're part of the Hello Sunshine family,
[18:24]which we're,
[18:25]I mean, it's just a huge honor.
[18:26]It is.
[18:27]We love them.
[18:28]And then isn't,
[18:29]aren't your books in the process of being developed
[18:31]one for Phil and when?
[18:32]Yes.
[18:33]Yes.
[18:34]Mrs. Parrish is with in development
[18:35]with Amazon.
[18:36]So,
[18:37]you know,
[18:38]we just wait for news for that.
[18:39]Yeah.
[18:40]It takes a lot.
[18:41]It takes a lot.
[18:42]And then we have,
[18:43]we have an option for the last time I saw you for film,
[18:46]which again,
[18:47]can't make an announcement,
[18:48]but there is an actor and actress
[18:49]attached to that.
[18:50]And then hopefully something will happen
[18:52]with a wife's talk, right?
[18:53]Right.
[18:54]So let's talk about the wife's talker,
[18:55]which was really great.
[18:57]Did you come up with this?
[18:58]I was wondering because the villain question mark
[19:02]is this like size two yoga,
[19:05]aficionado,
[19:06]wellness center woman.
[19:08]And I wondered,
[19:09]did they see a woman like this
[19:11]and wonder like what was going on?
[19:13]Like what's her backstory?
[19:14]Did that start anything?
[19:16]Or did I just make that up?
[19:18]Like,
[19:19]did you make that up?
[19:20]That's kind of a good story.
[19:21]You don't want to go forward,
[19:22]but you don't know.
[19:23]No, I don't think so.
[19:24]We came.
[19:25]It's difficult to talk about it without sort of doing it.
[19:28]Right.
[19:29]When we were discussing about,
[19:30]and we don't intentionally,
[19:32]I don't think that maybe we do,
[19:34]seems like all our books have two female protagonists.
[19:36]You know,
[19:37]it just has ended up that way
[19:39]other than the next one doesn't.
[19:40]So,
[19:41]it's great.
[19:42]But when we were talking,
[19:43]we actually made Valerie made a joke.
[19:45]I said,
[19:46]well,
[19:47]what if she's and she said something?
[19:48]Then we said,
[19:49]oh, you know what,
[19:50]maybe that would work.
[19:51]And that's what we ended up,
[19:53]so then we said,
[19:54]how would we do that?
[19:56]And that's how it went along.
[19:58]You know,
[19:59]I think we've all known the papers.
[20:00]Right, those beautiful, you know,
[20:03]tie the cheerleaders in school, you know what I mean?
[20:05]Right, yeah, they're like the perfect people
[20:08]and they're happy and they're nice
[20:09]and they're like, wow, how did you get all of that?
[20:13]Yes, really.
[20:14]Right, but nobody's really perfect, right?
[20:16]So then that's looking behind.
[20:17]And we certainly don't mean anything mean
[20:20]toward yoga instructors.
[20:21]Absolutely.
[20:22]No, no, not at all, no, no.
[20:25]I mean, I'd love to be yoga until I would go.
[20:28]And then you contrast her a bit with Joanna,
[20:30]who's Leo's wife and the mother of kids and blah, blah, blah.
[20:35]And then Joanna is dealing with her own issues with her mother,
[20:38]which I found very interesting.
[20:40]And I just wanted to read this passage
[20:42]because I feel like this should win the award
[20:43]for the best guilt trip in literature with my friends.
[20:46]And I've heard a lot of guilt trips in real life
[20:49]and everything, so this one like took the cake.
[20:51]So Joanna's mother breaks her leg
[20:53]and needs lots of help at home.
[20:55]And she says, I took, so Joanna says like,
[20:58]no, I have to get home to my kid soon
[21:00]and her mother's not having it.
[21:01]She's like, I took care of you for your whole life
[21:03]and you can't sacrifice a few weeks of yours for me.
[21:06]You care more about that hot shot lawyer than your mother.
[21:09]The children have sitters and their father, they'll be fine.
[21:11]And she says, fine, Joanna, abandoned your mother.
[21:14]Just remember that I gave up my career for you.
[21:16]I stayed home with you when you had mono.
[21:18]Remember for six months, I couldn't work
[21:20]and they gave my promotion to someone else.
[21:22]It was what direction my life would have taken
[21:24]if I'd been made a manager of my company instead.
[21:26]I lost my job.
[21:28]Your father left us for that woman and her daughter.
[21:30]And I took care of you after he was gone.
[21:32]Even though you were already 18,
[21:34]I could have kicked you out like a lot of parents
[21:35]do when their kids come and age.
[21:37]And then she went and throws up her hands and just says,
[21:38]okay, I'll stay on this.
[21:41]That was awesome.
[21:43]All right, where does this come from?
[21:44]What is your mom like this?
[21:46]All right, where are these guilt trips?
[21:47]Do you give these guilt trips?
[21:50]Our mom was wonderful, but she could do.
[21:52]She could pull a guilt trip occasionally.
[21:55]And our grandmother, for sure.
[21:57]Or a grandmother, she was a great guilt tripper.
[21:59]I'm highly susceptible to be gilted into things.
[22:04]And our children, as we all know as mothers,
[22:06]they can still do the guilt trip.
[22:08]They'll wrap it around in something they need.
[22:10]That's really critical to their survival
[22:13]and their well-being if you don't do it.
[22:15]And then like ourselves, I guilt trip myself, right?
[22:19]Don't we all do that not being a good enough mom
[22:22]or not being a good enough daughter?
[22:23]So, and being Greek, the guilt trip comes with the territory.
[22:30]Absolutely, I guess.
[22:32]I love that.
[22:33]I also found interesting Leo, the lawyer,
[22:35]the hot shut lawyer, just discussed Joanna's husband,
[22:38]in the beginning had been battling depression.
[22:41]And I found interesting the way you sort of treated that
[22:43]and the way Joanna treated it,
[22:44]sort of kid gloves almost like you've had this.
[22:47]Did you do research on this or how did you come up
[22:49]with that element of his backstory?
[22:52]Yes, I mean, I have a good friend
[22:54]who is a clinical psychologist.
[22:56]So, I always talk to her about her.
[22:58]We use her a lot, you know,
[23:00]kind of run things by her.
[23:01]And, no, you know, no people would press it.
[23:03]You could do a triple pen name.
[23:04]Yes, exactly, right?
[23:06]Yes, yes, yes, yes.
[23:07]She's definitely in it.
[23:08]She's always in the acknowledgements, Carmen, is she?
[23:11]And so, you know, we do run things by her
[23:13]and we always read a lot about whatever personality disorder,
[23:16]not that that's disorder, but in other books.
[23:18]or, you know, any kind of thing, mental health issue,
[23:22]you know, to try to know about it.
[23:23]Yeah, we do research on that.
[23:25]We should work on that.
[23:27]There's a quote in the book referring to marriage.
[23:29]And it says, it's not magic, it's love.
[23:31]It's believing in the power of love
[23:33]and the powers of our years together.
[23:36]How much credit should we give to the past
[23:40]when we're debating on the future, right?
[23:42]Everybody who's been married has all this past.
[23:45]When does the past become like in the past?
[23:48]Versus when can it stop affecting your decisions
[23:51]about whether or not to go forward?
[23:53]What do you think?
[23:54]I mean, I think weighing everything, I guess, you know,
[23:56]obviously if someone's in an abusive relationship
[23:58]or something that's harmful, then it doesn't,
[24:01]I mean, I don't care how many years you have together.
[24:03]You have to look at how that's affecting now.
[24:06]But I think also, depending upon if it's a transitional thing,
[24:09]right, if we all go through our ups and downs
[24:11]and all of our relationships.
[24:12]So if you can stick it out, if it's something
[24:15]that can be worked through, and I think
[24:17]if you have a lot of good years together,
[24:19]it's worth it because no matter what,
[24:21]you're gonna get into a new relationship,
[24:22]you're gonna be faced with problems
[24:24]in that relationship as well, right?
[24:26]I think that's true.
[24:26]I think, but then I think there's also the situation
[24:30]where maybe the past and what you've been going through
[24:33]is not a good thing.
[24:35]Right.
[24:35]But there's such a fear often of leaving,
[24:40]something that you know and something
[24:41]that feels familiar even though it's painful
[24:45]and moving into the unknown.
[24:46]And then what a lot of psychologists would say
[24:50]is that you really won't leave a situation
[24:52]that's painful until it's so painful
[24:56]that the fear of the unknown seems less painful.
[25:00]Absolutely.
[25:01]Yeah.
[25:02]So I think that can be a really difficult thing
[25:04]for people who are in a bad marriage,
[25:07]in a bad relationship, or even with family
[25:09]that might be toxic or where they were
[25:11]in abusive situations.
[25:13]Because we do tend to want to stay
[25:16]in what's familiar and what we know
[25:18]and what feels safe even though it's not safe
[25:20]because out there is scary.
[25:22]What's true, even in a job, anything, right?
[25:24]Right.
[25:25]Whatever seems.
[25:26]And I think too, there's a tendency
[25:28]to not want to make the wrong decision, right?
[25:31]As opposed to saying, well, you know,
[25:33]it's not necessarily right or wrong, it's just different.
[25:35]And the only way to know is to try,
[25:38]but there is, I definitely think fear can really stop.
[25:42]It can stop you at times.
[25:43]So, did you read a book called,
[25:46]How to Write a Psychological Thriller?
[25:47]No, you didn't know we were writing a psychological
[25:51]when we were in the actual way.
[25:52]We thought it was women's fiction.
[25:54]I mean, that's what we intended as women's fiction.
[25:57]And when we got an agent and we signed our contract
[26:01]and she said, you know, this is a psychological thriller
[26:04]and we said, really?
[26:05]Yeah, so this sort of goes over,
[26:06]the nice thing it's both.
[26:07]And we made it both.
[26:08]And so we did, because as you know,
[26:10]with Paris, there's no murder in Paris,
[26:12]but then we graduated to murder in the past.
[26:15]It's killing people.
[26:15]It's killing people.
[26:16]Yeah, we got to work towards something.
[26:19]Well, maybe you can write a little thing
[26:21]called How to Write a Psychological Thriller.
[26:22]You can add your to that or to the ask you genres
[26:26]since you're so familiar with them.
[26:27]Right.
[26:28]Maybe like a little giveaway and a little thing.
[26:29]Yeah, that's true.
[26:30]Yeah.
[26:31]People sign up for your mailing list.
[26:32]Right, I'll just stop it.
[26:33]Yeah.
[26:34]And do you have any advice for aspiring authors?
[26:38]Lots of advice for a lot of reading, reading, reading,
[26:41]and reading classics.
[26:43]I'm in addition to modern fiction and whatever,
[26:47]but I think reading the classics is always helpful.
[26:50]And I think, I mean, really studying the craft for me,
[26:54]I remember when I first started,
[26:55]I was worried about taking any writing classes,
[26:56]because you think naively assume, oh,
[26:59]that's going to change my voice, but it's really important.
[27:03]I learned, I worked in Westport
[27:05]with a small group called Write Yourself Frei
[27:06]and Patrick of this man, Patrick McCourt,
[27:08]who was amazing.
[27:09]And he, for two years, I attended workshops
[27:11]where there were only eight of us, and you'd
[27:13]bring your writing in.
[27:14]And they didn't critique, because I
[27:16]think that sometimes that can be tough
[27:17]when you have other people that are just as green as you are.
[27:20]But he would give good advice.
[27:21]And I really learned how to embody, I hope so anyway,
[27:25]my writing through those workshops.
[27:28]And then attending Thriller Fest, again,
[27:31]there's all the craft classes.
[27:32]And you know, you're going to find some advice
[27:34]that you agree with and some that you don't.
[27:36]But I think continuing to write, practicing,
[27:39]having a good mentor.
[27:41]And we've learned a ton too, too,
[27:42]where we have an amazing editor at HarperCollins.
[27:44]And we have learned so much working with her over the years,
[27:47]just each book.
[27:48]You think that you're, as a new writer,
[27:51]I think a lot of times they're finished,
[27:52]and they're submitting.
[27:54]And they don't know what they don't know,
[27:56]because I know that was the case for us.
[27:58]So the other thing is when, if you can,
[28:01]to find a good editor before you try to find an agent
[28:03]to just take it that next step, can really
[28:05]be the difference.
[28:06]To go to the next step.
[28:07]Yeah, definitely.
[28:08]I think a lot of times, often people think of editors
[28:12]as the ones who go in and they fix punctuation
[28:14]and they maybe change a word here or there,
[28:16]they fix spelling, but there's so much more
[28:19]to the editing process where they'll talk
[28:21]about story development and why maybe this should be placed
[28:25]instead of being in the first third of the book,
[28:27]maybe this should be in halfway through,
[28:29]because that will increase the tension.
[28:32]Or what is this person thinking when he says that?
[28:36]I'd like to know what the emotions are and why,
[28:40]what does she think when he says blah, blah, blah,
[28:42]back to her.
[28:43]And so now when we're writing,
[28:47]in fact, when I was reading one of Lin's chapters
[28:49]and I wrote, why did you?
[28:51]You know, so the editors, like constantly in our head too.
[28:56]But that, I think hiring a freelance editor
[28:59]for Mrs. Parrish was incredibly helpful for us
[29:02]before we submitted it.
[29:03]It was.
[29:04]I mean, we actually hired her just to do a quick line at it
[29:07]just before we did.
[29:08]And she, and she's terrific too.
[29:10]And we've worked with her on other books.
[29:11]And she just pointed out one thing
[29:14]that she felt cut the tension in the middle of the book.
[29:17]And we, over the course of an hour, we said,
[29:19]all right, we talked about it.
[29:20]And we said, well, what if we just stopped it here
[29:22]and moved this over here?
[29:23]So the reader doesn't know what happens until,
[29:25]and which is what we did.
[29:27]And I really wonder if we hadn't done that,
[29:30]if it would have been picked up as quickly as it was.
[29:33]So, but we couldn't, you know, you're so close,
[29:35]you can't see it.
[29:36]So that's the other thing.
[29:37]The editor can see things that are just make those
[29:40]little things that are really aren't little things.
[29:43]And I would also say just keep persevering.
[29:45]I do it every day, don't give up.
[29:47]If that's really your dream,
[29:49]just keep doing it and doing it.
[29:51]And if you feel like you're stuck on something,
[29:54]put it away, put it in the drawer, and start it.
[29:57]And start something new.
[29:59]And also.
[30:00]don't get a book called Rotten Rejections,
[30:02]and read, I think it would be out of print,
[30:04]but I'm not sure if you can even find it online.
[30:06]Yeah.
[30:07]Rejections that amazing classics and bestsellers
[30:11]got to just, you do have to have a thick skin.
[30:14]I think Jonathan, Jonathan,
[30:15]living soon, see if someone wrote and said,
[30:17]you know, no one wants to read about birds.
[30:18]I mean, they're just all in animal forms.
[30:20]Nobody wants to read about animals anymore.
[30:22]And then, you know, obviously they've been read the books,
[30:25]so yeah, just so yeah.
[30:28]Yeah, great.
[30:29]Well, thank you, both so much for coming out.
[30:31]Thank you for bringing the trust, thank you, thank you.
[30:33]She left me all the way in to do this in person.
[30:35]I really appreciate it.
[30:36]Oh, absolutely.
[30:37]We're happy to.
[30:37]Thank you so much.
[30:39]Thanks again for listening to my podcast.
[30:41]Moms don't have time to read books.
[30:43]If you liked this episode, please follow me on Instagram
[30:46]at zippyowens and at moms don't have time to read books
[30:50]and sign up for my mailing list at zippyowens.com,
[30:53]so you can always hear about the latest things I'm up to.
[30:55]Thanks a lot.
[30:56]Thanks to modern Majang for partnering with us today.
[30:59]Modern Majang.
[31:01]We will think of you anytime we need to give gifts
[31:04]to a Majang playing person.
[31:06]Thanks so much.
[31:07]Thanks so much to Steve and Ryan at Texture Sound
[31:09]for the Sound Editing.
[31:11]And thank you to Morning Moon Productions
[31:12]for providing this fantastic intro and out trim music.
[31:15]Thanks for listening.
[31:16]You could always email me at zippyowens.com.