Mary Beth Keane, ASK AGAIN, YES
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[3:43]capital Z or go to stylist.com and try it out. And let me know what you think. Mary Beth
[3:48]Keen is the author of Ask Again Yes. She attended Barnard College in the University of Virginia
[3:53]where she received an MFA. She has been named one of the National Book Foundations 5 under 35
[3:59]and was awarded a John Simon Guggenheim Fellowship for fiction writing. She currently lives in
[4:04]Pearl River, New York with her husband and their two sons. She is also the author of The Walking
[4:08]People and Fever. Hi, Mary Beth. Thanks for coming up. I'm Officer on Time to Read Books.
[4:13]Hi, Zimmy. Thank you for having me. It's my pleasure. So you are the author of Ask Again Yes,
[4:18]which has been on the bestseller list like for weeks and weeks and was such a big success that
[4:25]even Jimmy Fallon voted it on his book club is like the thing. So it's about two families who
[4:38]end up living next door to one another in a suburb of New York City in the 70s. And the book spans
[4:43]about 40 years. It begins in the 70s. It ends in 2018, I believe. And they end up living as neighbors
[4:51]and the dads in both houses are cops. And they're sort of bonded by what the dads do for a living.
[4:57]But it ends up, and the kids become kind of close. But then this tragic event happens that
[5:02]divides the families they think forever. Of course, they are not divided forever. That's not a
[5:07]plot spoiler. You can sort of feel it coming in the pros. And it's sort of about how the things
[5:13]that happen to us as kids, the traumas of our childhoods, how we end up carrying them into adulthood
[5:18]in strange ways, even when we think we're long past those things. I mean, the book is really,
[5:24]that's sort of, you know, there's the situation and the story. I think the story is really about
[5:28]love, you know, and how it changes and gets tested and morphs over time, you know, who you have
[5:34]to protect within a love relationship, yourself, the person that you're committed to, you know,
[5:39]and it's not just romantic love. It's between siblings, parents, children, and all of the above.
[5:44]You know, basically it's like what we all go through in a messy life and whether it's worth it or not.
[5:50]I've heard you describe this as Romeo and Juliet if like the families then had to,
[5:54]you know, hang out again forever. I've heard of something that struck me when I read
[6:00]Romeo and Juliet as a kid, you know, in high school, I guess was the first time I read it.
[6:03]and then I read it again in college. And I thought this is all well and good, but it's obvious that
[6:09]the author, if it was William Shakespeare, you know, knew it could only end one way because otherwise
[6:16]it's sort of even more depressing. You know, how does that love look? 10, 20, 30 years later,
[6:22]if they have to, if one of, you know, if they lived and they had to be with each other's families
[6:27]or they had to share grandkids and all that. So yeah, it's sort of, I said that sort of tongue
[6:31]and cheek once, but now I keep saying it over and over because it is accurate. I'll
[6:36]sorry to make you say it again. Okay, it's a good description. So what, how did you come up with
[6:42]the story? You know, it's hard. I feel like a lot of writers, I come up with an answer, but the
[6:47]truth is I don't, I don't totally know, you know, why this story felt most important to me at
[6:53]the time I started writing. I think it's because some of the themes of the book, like
[6:58]estrangement over a long time, mental illness, alcoholism, all of these things were coming up
[7:05]in my own life, not necessarily my own direct life, but my friends and family I was having to
[7:11]talk about these things a lot and consider them. I've said before that my, we have a long
[7:17]estrangement in my family, my, between my husband and his parents, and we also knew each other
[7:22]since we were young. I don't necessarily, I don't want, the people who don't maybe have a good
[7:27]imagination immediately think this is not fiction then. It is. It's a total fiction, but those
[7:33]things that I was thinking about in real life certainly inspired the fiction that came out of it
[7:37]and Kate and Peter's story. So I think I was just trying to manage becoming a mother and my kids
[7:42]getting older and imagining what it would be like if I, you know, we're in a situation where we
[7:47]didn't speak, you know, and how that happens to a family. It is hard to imagine as a parent now
[7:53]that you could put in all this work and time and then they grow up and you don't talk to them
[7:57]when you're so intimately connected, particularly now because we're talking during the quarantine
[8:01]and the fact that they could just be out in the world and not talk to you is sort of hard to even
[8:06]wrap my head around and forget that you made them sandwiches every day during this two hot lunches,
[8:11]two hot meals a day. Yeah, I think, you know, I think it's over and over after my oldest son,
[8:16]he'll be 12 in July. And at every stage, there are things that happened that I thought I would
[8:22]never do. You know, I'd never hand my kid an iPad in a long car ride. You know, this is before I had
[8:27]children. Now I happily give it up, you know, just to get five minutes of silence. And that's
[8:32]just a funny example, but there are lots of things like that. And I think that I, you know, worry
[8:37]about what's coming for us, I guess. What thing can I not imagine now that we'll be here before I
[8:44]know it? You know, just scary thought, but it has to be a real one if it happens over and over again.
[8:49]I also think, I don't know whether it's like the Irish character or what, but there is a lot of
[8:54]estrangement within Irish families. My parents are foreign, so are my husbands. And so it's the
[9:00]culture that I'm most familiar with. But I've noticed that it never happens all at once. You know,
[9:05]it's not like someone says something that rents the air and then it's over. It happens
[9:10]little by little by little. And then 20 years have gone by and you're at a funeral. And that's
[9:16]scary to me too, that making no decision is also a decision in a way. The same is probably true for
[9:22]alcoholism. You know, people don't just become alcoholics overnight. You know, it's bit by bit by bit.
[9:28]And I have friends, you know, and loved ones who struggled with this. And I've wondered why I
[9:33]don't. I had my first drink when I was like 12, which was pretty normal the way I grew up. And
[9:38]I just know that I don't. So, you know, why is that? Things like that. I thought about a lot.
[9:43]And I was starting to write this book. Those are all really interesting things. It's like,
[9:48]why can some people try something once and they're addicted forever? And then other people,
[9:52]it's like, okay, I can manage this on my own some way. But and that is also a scary to think for
[9:57]your kids. Like, you don't know. They're just sitting there. What is
[10:00]They have what genetic predispositions,
[10:02]maybe one of them is gonna, you know,
[10:04]you just don't know.
[10:06]And could I be doing something that like is the seed,
[10:09]you know, that just starts whatever journey that they're on,
[10:12]you know, just by one day I yell a particular thing
[10:15]or, you know, you just don't know why things happen
[10:18]and it's scary.
[10:19]I'm gonna take that guilt off you and they're saying
[10:22]that there is no way there's one thing you could yell
[10:24]that will turn the child down, that's me y'all.
[10:28]So I can imagine.
[10:30]I feel like quarantine is not exactly
[10:32]bringing the best out of me as a parent at times.
[10:35]So I get it.
[10:37]The other night I yelled,
[10:38]no one can have their ice cream
[10:39]until you've finished your popcorn.
[10:41]And I was like, what do I care?
[10:43]They're eating like junk after junk.
[10:45]I know, I said to say, I'm like,
[10:46]no, no, does that tell your pizzas all gone?
[10:49]Like one, really?
[10:50]Like eating pizzas is gonna make them better off.
[10:53]They should just skip the pizza.
[10:54]It's like, yeah.
[10:55]It's very, that's fine.
[10:56]I mean, there's so little we can control now.
[10:58]It's like these little rules.
[10:59]That's all we have left to sort of cling to
[11:01]with the little ropes, you know,
[11:03]that we're swinging through the jungle.
[11:04]It's like, dinner before dessert.
[11:06]That's it.
[11:07]That's all I can say.
[11:08]It doesn't matter how bad the dinner is.
[11:09]Or everything at that age.
[11:11]I mean, it's the way.
[11:13]So true.
[11:14]The plan.
[11:15]And what you said about how if you don't resolve something,
[11:18]it just grows over time, right?
[11:20]It's so true.
[11:21]And I feel like actually that happens
[11:22]in a lot of marriages where things just go unsaid
[11:25]or unfixed.
[11:27]And then before you know it, it's like,
[11:29]it's been gears and whatever that little,
[11:31]you don't even remember what the little thing was
[11:33]in the beginning.
[11:34]It's just like snowballs.
[11:35]And it can happen with friendships and marriage
[11:37]and so many other things.
[11:39]Or you get used to like skirting it one round it.
[11:42]It just becomes second nature.
[11:43]And then one day, 20 years down the road,
[11:46]you have to look at it.
[11:47]You know, I'm like, wow, this thing has been sitting here
[11:50]for a really long time.
[11:51]And it's gotten awfully big.
[11:53]And now, and it's even harder to deal after a long time.
[11:56]But I think that happens a lot.
[11:58]I agree, it's so true.
[11:59]Do you have a lot of cops in your family?
[12:01]The descriptions, I know you said you've done a lot of research
[12:04]on this book, or I read that you did a lot of research,
[12:06]but do you have a lot of cops in your family?
[12:08]Or is that just?
[12:09]I don't want for an Irish family.
[12:10]We don't have any cops.
[12:11]I don't know why we were mostly for our tenders
[12:13]and construction workers.
[12:15]But I have a lot of friends whose dads were cops
[12:17]or now whose brothers or spouses or sisters are cops.
[12:22]So I had access, I guess.
[12:23]I grew up in a town that was a lot of NYPD
[12:26]and a lot of FDNY.
[12:27]And so I was able to interview a lot of detectives
[12:31]who were active in the 70s and 80s,
[12:33]and then people who are active now.
[12:36]And I think the force is quite different than it was then
[12:39]as something that was interesting.
[12:41]But I did talk to a lot of cops.
[12:43]And I think most of them are really interested
[12:46]in telling stories about the job.
[12:48]They see crazy things.
[12:50]But I was not that interested in the crazy stories,
[12:53]which was confusing to some of them.
[12:55]I mean, they were interesting to an extent,
[12:58]but what I really wanted to know was how they felt maybe
[13:00]or how their spouses felt,
[13:02]even about being a cop in the first place.
[13:05]I don't think that that's something
[13:06]that I don't know a lot of personalities
[13:09]allow themselves to examine fully.
[13:12]But I do think a lot of the people I talked
[13:16]who did think a lot about that.
[13:17]They weren't used to maybe talking the way
[13:19]that I wanted to talk.
[13:20]But I wore them down.
[13:22]Nice.
[13:23]And got them to talk.
[13:24]And some people wanted, they were very delighted.
[13:26]Some I mentioned in my acknowledgement.
[13:28]Some I didn't because they didn't want to be mentioned.
[13:31]Maybe because they weren't sure what sort of book I was writing.
[13:34]Maybe they thought I was weird.
[13:35]I don't know.
[13:36]But yeah, I was lucky to be able to talk
[13:38]to a lot of people pretty frankly about what work was like.
[13:41]And I love the scene when a rookie cop has his first
[13:44]like really bad night and has to call home.
[13:47]And the wife is like, were you really scared?
[13:51]I mean, there's like this long band.
[13:52]He's like, no, no, no, but you know he was.
[13:54]And she knows he was.
[13:55]And I don't know.
[13:56]I could just see that happening so easily.
[13:58]Well, I think true, that's another thing
[14:01]that I think happened sort of incrementally.
[14:02]I think there's something about being a police officer
[14:06]where at least in that era, that was the 70s when that happened.
[14:10]I don't think they felt like they were,
[14:12]I think it was like part of the job to say they weren't afraid.
[14:15]You know, and of course you were afraid.
[14:16]You know, that's what courage is.
[14:18]But I think if you pretend to yourself
[14:21]for a period of years that you're not afraid,
[14:23]you know, that's how this, you know,
[14:25]this thing builds up inside, you know,
[14:28]and the force now, NYPD has a problem with depression.
[14:32]I mean, I can't remember how many suicides
[14:35]that were in 2019, but it was a lot
[14:39]to the point where it's now considered a crisis.
[14:41]And I think they've gotten much better about that,
[14:44]about counseling and psychology for their, you know,
[14:47]for everyone, but I think it still has a ways to go.
[14:51]And in the 70s, I don't think that existed pretty much at all.
[14:55]So.
[14:56]And tell me about your process writing this book.
[14:58]I understand it took you about four years to write,
[15:00]but tell me the whole thing,
[15:01]like where and when, how old are your kids?
[15:03]Like the whole, pay me a picture.
[15:05]Whose book was awful to write?
[15:07]Like, I have no advice when it comes to that.
[15:11]I don't think writing one book teaches you how to write
[15:13]another.
[15:14]I love hearing other writers answer this
[15:16]because I hope to learn something.
[15:18]I just kept, I think because this book felt so personal to me,
[15:23]I just kept writing to where the energy was,
[15:26]if that makes sense.
[15:27]So I saw this one character, Francis, early.
[15:30]I could see him sort of on the beat,
[15:32]maybe not that comfortable with being a cop in the first place,
[15:35]but it was a good job, it had benefits,
[15:37]it was respectable, you know, and then he's in it.
[15:40]And then what do you do then?
[15:42]You can't really be something else.
[15:44]And so I saw his sort of ambivalence
[15:46]and I saw how he looked and I saw his, the neighborhood.
[15:50]So I wrote that, you know, for a couple of months
[15:52]and the things that happened.
[15:53]Then I saw Peter, who's a different generation
[15:56]and I knew he wasn't Francis's son.
[15:59]And I saw all the things that like he was doing.
[16:02]So I'd sort of write, I didn't know whether I was writing
[16:04]two books or what they had to do with one another,
[16:08]but it was a total mess.
[16:10]I mean, I had people going off to Vietnam
[16:12]and coming back and I mean,
[16:14]everything that could have happened happened.
[16:17]But then I had to wheel it down to what was essential
[16:19]and it ended up being like a puzzle piece.
[16:22]You know, I had to sort of cycle backwards and forwards.
[16:25]In any case, it ended up, I just wrote a lot of different drafts
[16:29]and structured it a lot of different ways
[16:31]and then finally found this way,
[16:33]which seemed to work the best.
[16:34]But I didn't have readers for a long time,
[16:36]partly because I didn't know what this thing really was.
[16:40]And so that, you know, I guess it would have helped
[16:42]to get readers earlier,
[16:43]but on the other hand, they might have directed me
[16:45]to do something that I didn't want to do yet
[16:47]since I wasn't quite sure what it was.
[16:49]Anyway, it was a mess and there's no approach
[16:51]and I don't outline.
[16:53]So I love when people have these like boards with string,
[16:57]you know, an index cards.
[16:59]It looks like they're like invading a foreign country
[17:01]or something and it seems so straightforward.
[17:04]And I've tried to do that, but I can't.
[17:07]The minute I know what's gonna happen next,
[17:10]it's like, all the pros just goes dead.
[17:12]It's just totally flat.
[17:13]So, you know, I don't know.
[17:14]I think I just am messy writer.
[17:17]I don't know, backwards and forwards.
[17:19]But that's okay.
[17:20]I mean, it sounds, I mean,
[17:22]I mean, you shouldn't feel badly about that.
[17:24]Yeah, no, you know, I don't want to take, you know,
[17:26]this much time.
[17:27]Also my kids were little.
[17:28]My husband used to have a job where he commuted
[17:30]between New York and Chicago.
[17:34]And then I don't know, the kids were little
[17:36]and they weren't in full time school.
[17:38]My youngest is in third grade now.
[17:40]And I guess I finished the book in 2017 or 18.
[17:44]So, you know, it takes a while.
[17:46]And then I try to grab time where I can.
[17:49]And sometimes getting childcare I found wasn't.
[17:52]It wasn't as helpful as just getting up
[17:54]in the middle of the night by myself on my own time.
[17:58]I don't think that makes sense to a lot of people,
[18:00]but it makes sense.
[18:01]Maybe to writers sounds like it makes sense to you.
[18:03]You're nodding.
[18:04]You know, so it's a weird mind game.
[18:07]Well, it's so funny because right before you today,
[18:09]I interviewed Jay Courtney Sullivan
[18:11]who I realized blurbed your book.
[18:13]And she just said the exact same thing.
[18:15]Like that she wrote her most recent book
[18:17]basically in the middle of the night.
[18:18]And that was like her time when, you know,
[18:20]as a new mom and everything.
[18:21]So I'm nodding because like that's not a rare thing at all.
[18:26]It's like, good, I'm glad to hear that.
[18:28]Yeah.
[18:29]Nor is it rare to not have it organized like that.
[18:32]I feel like it's actually more rare to have it color-coded
[18:35]and perfect before you write it.
[18:37]I guess those are the people who are always posting things
[18:40]about they're like organized boards and stuff.
[18:43]I wouldn't dare show my desk
[18:45]because it would give people a migraine if it would go.
[18:48]That's why there's a misperception
[18:50]that that's more frequent.
[18:51]It's not.
[18:52]It's just more frequently posted.
[18:54]Yeah, good point.
[18:55]Yeah, maybe.
[18:55]I don't know, good.
[18:56]Anyway.
[18:58]Well, this was your third book.
[18:59]Do you now want to write any more books?
[19:02]Like do you seem a little down on the whole thing?
[19:05]And this is just me.
[19:06]I mean, this is just the way I am.
[19:08]I'm overwhelmed.
[19:09]Well, I just mailed off 100 pages to a reader friend of mine.
[19:13]He's also a writer.
[19:14]So maybe that's why I'm in this weird mood.
[19:15]You know, I'm a little bit anxious.
[19:17]But yeah, I mean, I think I start having a novel.
[19:20]I think start bubbling up a little bit before I'm done
[19:24]with my last one.
[19:26]But then you have to talk about the book
[19:28]that's come out for a long time.
[19:29]So sometimes you can't quite look at it.
[19:31]But yeah, I'm in a good spot.
[19:33]Now, I mean, this is the silver lining of this strange time
[19:37]that we're in right now, is that I feel
[19:39]like I can think about a new book.
[19:41]A lot more than I would have if we weren't stuck at home,
[19:43]I'd be on a paperback tour and doing press and stuff like that.
[19:47]And the other weird thing is my second book
[19:50]is weirdly relevant to what's going on now.
[19:54]It was about an asymptomatic character
[19:57]who we all know as typhoid Mary.
[19:58]But she was a real person.
[20:00]So I find myself thinking about her a lot too, but yeah, I definitely hopefully I have lots of more
[20:05]books in me.
[20:06]I was reading, I didn't read that book fever, but I was reading about it and I was thinking,
[20:11]wow, well this could so easily be happening to somebody now.
[20:14]I mean, yeah, really be anybody.
[20:16]I have more sympathy for her.
[20:18]I had sympathy then, but even more so now that she never had any symptoms of typhoid fever
[20:25]and she was in her 30s, lived alone at that time.
[20:28]She supported herself was really unusual and to just be taken out of your life
[20:33]and isolated from society without ever having been arrested.
[20:37]There was no due process and imagine how frustrating that was.
[20:42]You know, I sort of could imagine it then, but now I can really imagine it.
[20:45]Did you see the movie Richard Jewell that came out very recently?
[20:48]Because that might be worth watching while you're in quarantine,
[20:51]but it was about the Oklahoma City bomber and that basically is what happened to him
[20:57]without due process and suddenly removed from life and surrounded by the FBI and there was no court
[21:02]trial or anything.
[21:03]Anyway, it has some similar themes to that and it was really well done as a movie with
[21:07]Clint Eastwood directing or whatever.
[21:09]Anyway, just as an aside.
[21:11]Thank you for looking for a movie recommendations for me, but just throwing it out there.
[21:17]So I don't want to ask you for advice for new authors.
[21:19]Is there anything else about asking and yes that I have missed that maybe you'd want to
[21:26]relate to people that maybe I didn't think to ask or anything?
[21:29]I don't know.
[21:30]I mean, a lot of people have taken different things out of this book, which has been,
[21:35]I think the nicest experience, the nicest part of this has been people from other cultures
[21:40]and countries identifying with it.
[21:42]I did not see that coming at all.
[21:45]Now, you know, I thought this was my sort of like private book, felt very personal.
[21:51]I had to write it so I might as well try to publish it since I'd spent all this time on it.
[21:56]And that it's now I think it's in 21 languages, which is lovely.
[22:01]But the thing that really gets me are the letters from you know like an editor in
[22:05]Macedonia or Israel to say like this could be my family.
[22:09]And I was afraid that I was writing about people that no one else would care about or understand.
[22:14]And that's been really nice.
[22:15]And I think I mean, I hope I don't sound too.
[22:17]I've been stuck in my house for a month.
[22:19]So if I sound grumpy, it's only because of that.
[22:22]But to people who want to write a novel, you know, and are thinking about it, I think this has
[22:27]been a great lesson to not try to write to the market or to what anybody else, you know,
[22:33]says is a good idea or not, you know, just write the thing that you have to write.
[22:38]And that will, if you do a good job, hopefully it'll find an audience because you just can't
[22:42]predict anything else except your own, you know, perseverance and your own commitment to your
[22:47]story, I think.
[22:49]And also this was in development perhaps as a limited, is that still the case?
[22:54]That has been really exciting.
[22:56]Fever is too.
[22:57]And it's been a little while.
[22:58]Elizabeth Moss option that when she's been doing handmaids tale now for a while.
[23:02]But this is two producers who option to ask again, yes, and that's the idea limited series.
[23:07]So it's very, it's only a couple of months ago now that they, that everything came through.
[23:12]so hopefully that all wheels will start turning pretty soon.
[23:15]I hope that's exciting.
[23:17]Very exciting, yeah.
[23:19]Well, thank you for coming on this podcast.
[23:21]And I hope that we all get out of our home soon.
[23:25]And thanks for talking about your great book and all the rest of it.
[23:28]Thank you.
[23:29]I'm problem.
[23:30]Okay, bye.
[23:31]Bye.
[23:31]Thanks again for listening to my podcast.
[23:33]Moms don't have time to read books.
[23:35]If you liked this episode, please follow me on Instagram at Zibi Owens and at Moms don't have
[23:41]time to read books and sign up for my mailing list at Zibi Owens.com.
[23:45]So you can always hear about the latest things I'm up to you.
[23:48]Thanks a lot.
[23:48]Today's episode has been sponsored by Stylist.
[23:51]Please try out Stylist.
[23:53]Again, it's text to number 926-848 and text Zibi Capital Z or go to Stylist.com and try it out.
[24:00]And let me know what you think.
[24:01]Thanks so much to Steve and Ryan at Texture Sound for the Sound Editing.
[24:05]And thank you to Morning Moon Productions for providing this fantastic intro and out trim music.
[24:10]Thanks for listening.
[24:11]You can always email me at Zibi at Zibi Owens.com.