Laura Munson, WILLA'S GROVE
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[1:22]Laura Menson is the author of Will is Grow for debut novel. She's also the author of This Is Not
[1:28]the Story You Think It Is, a season of Unlikely Happiness, which is a memoir based on
[1:33]her New York Times modern love essay, which was so popular, it actually crashed the New York Times
[1:39]website. How about that? She founded a writing retreat in Montana called the Haven Writing Program,
[1:46]and I hope you enjoy our conversation. I sure did.
[1:49]Laura, thanks so much for coming on moms. Don't have time to read books.
[1:52]It is my pleasure to be here, Zippy. Thank you so much for inspiring people to read books and
[1:59]support their local bookstores and thank you for supporting authors.
[2:03]I pleasure. And if anybody, by the way, who's listening wants to see us live,
[2:07]they can go to our IGTV interview, which is on my IGTV channel. They can watch our little interview
[2:13]that we did a few weeks ago. Just shouting out to that. Anyway, so your latest book is called
[2:19]Willis Grove. And on the cover, it says four women one week, one question, which is like,
[2:24]oh my gosh, I have to open up this book. Can you please tell listeners what the book is about?
[2:30]Sure. I'd love to. Well, so this is a book about four women who are each in a major crossroads
[2:39]moment of their lives. And as a result, they're isolating and hiding and pretending like so many of
[2:46]us do when we're in those crossroads moments because we're afraid of being judged or we feel guilty
[2:52]or ashamed. And so finally, one of the women will, the protagonist, reaches out to an old friend and
[2:59]she spills it. And her friend comes up with this idea that perhaps they should have a week away
[3:06]from their lives. And they should invite people who are also at major crossroads moments all looking
[3:12]at the question that we're all looking at right now, which is so now what? And so these four women
[3:18]get together. And the recipe that they follow is one that I hope others will do. So, so Willa invites
[3:23]her friend, Bliss, and Bliss invites her friend, Harriet, and Harriet invites her friend, Jane.
[3:29]And so each of them has at least one good friend. And they convene in Montana for a week,
[3:33]and they help each other find their answers to so now what? And they do so by having those
[3:39]conversations that we all need to be having and so often aren't. So that's the question. Four women,
[3:44]one week, one question, and the question is so now what? It's awesome. It's such a great encapsulation
[3:50]of women's friendship, even just the reticence at the beginning for people to want to start
[3:54]spilling the fact that the women didn't even really, they all thought about canceling the trip.
[4:00]And then they finally got there. And of course, all the different personalities start coming
[4:03]through from somebody who wants to pop open champagne to someone who wants to basically crawl
[4:08]under a rock to, you know, everybody has their own take on how to do it. And yet, of course,
[4:13]the book unveils how everybody gets so much out of the trip. And the greatest part about this
[4:17]book is that you actually lead these retreats yourself, right? So tell me more about that.
[4:24]Well, in no way is this book about a writing retreat, but it is absolutely inspired by
[4:29]the last eight years of my life, which has had a very surprised chapter in my life,
[4:36]because suddenly I became a teacher, I've always been a writer and a mother and a horse person
[4:40]and a city girl, even though I've lived in Montana for 30 years, but something happens when people
[4:45]gather in these intimate safe circles, especially when they're there for the express intention
[4:50]of having some sort of result. And so I've been leading even, let's see, I've got six different
[4:56]programs now. I've got a thousand alums of my programs and it is ranked in the top writing retreats
[5:01]in the US. So I'm really proud of it because a few years ago, I was able to start the Haven
[5:06]Foundation, which is a 501c3 nonprofit. So Haven is able to serve people in a very demographically
[5:13]diverse way. And that just makes for a richer circle of people and self-expression, because that's
[5:19]really what we're doing at Haven, whether you're doing the advanced program for bookwriters,
[5:23]or the initial program, or working with me one on one, or doing a writer and residence,
[5:28]what ultimately Haven does is help you raise yourself awareness. And it helps you to find
[5:35]the intuitive nature of what it is that you have to say. Because I think you can turn a phrase
[5:40]or twist a plot or have a fabulous command of the English language all day long. But if you don't
[5:44]have your finger on the pulse of what's behind what you have to say, it will never build that
[5:49]bridge to the reader. And so every single time I lead one of these things, the group says,
[5:55]we're your best group, right? Like there's no way it could be this great every time. And I just
[6:00]have to break the news to them that it is over and over and over again. And that's what I wanted
[6:04]to capture in this book. So there is some writing in it. In fact, I've been leading workshops
[6:08]and using some of the writing prompts that the women in the book use later on in the book, but
[6:13]in no ways that are writing retreat. But it is about what I call bridge community. Because I
[6:18]think sometimes you have to leave your daily community in order to, as the poet Emma Mellon says,
[6:25]allow yourself to be spelled differently. And I think that's what people do when they leave home
[6:30]and they hang out in a safe circle with new people who are kindreds, but aren't in each other's
[6:35]daily lives so that they can more authentically, you know, bridge back to the people in their community
[6:41]and their family and friends. So in no way is this book a call to action to not rely on your life
[6:48]during hardship. But it is a call to action to seek new community. And right now we're doing it online,
[6:54]totally. This is sort of like what happens after the bachelor at parties. I feel like there's a
[7:01]time in your life with all the weddings. And you know, when you're in your 20s or 30s and you're
[7:05]meeting all these friends of friends all the time. And then it stops. And you go into your mom
[7:10]circles, but it's not the same as before when it's like a one degree of separation. So your book,
[7:16]your writing communities, your book community in the not book community, but your retreat in the
[7:22]novel that it's like the continuation of that in a way. I want people to read this book and say,
[7:29]I want to throw a zibby's grove, you know, or Elizabeth's grove and then do the same thing and
[7:34]buy a friend who's in a crossroads moment. She can invite a friend and then she invites a friend
[7:38]and then convene somewhere and help each other. You know, it's like one of the things that I love
[7:43]about this book is that it's not prescriptive. Once I finally allow the characters to write it,
[7:48]you know, they had to have these conversations that I didn't necessarily want them to have.
[7:52]And I think most fiction writers know that's true that when they truly know their characters,
[7:57]the characters write the book. And so they wanted to talk about what was supposed to happen,
[8:01]you know, and then what actually happened? And something tells me that anybody who
[8:06]goes away for a week on a retreat likely has different answers for what was supposed to happen
[8:12]and what actually happened. And one interviewer said, did you think there was too much conversation
[8:18]at the beginning of the book? And I said, you know, I think that anybody who thinks
[8:22]there's too much conversation in this book is the exact person who needs to be having those
[8:26]conversations. That's an interesting piece of feedback. I've never felt like that. I love dialogue
[8:31]and books. Yeah, me too. Me too. And these women are, I mean, they are being rudely honest.
[8:38]Even like you said, a few of them are resisting it. But I have found that when you resist
[8:43]something, that's usually where you need to go. And that's what they do in the book.
[8:46]Totally. I love if I could just read this one paragraph,
[8:48]Willis talking. She has recently lost her husband, which we find more and more out about as the
[8:53]book goes on, but is also dealing with the aftermath, even the financial aftermath and trying to save
[8:58]her, well, her town really and all the rest. But you have this moment where she's confiding in her
[9:03]friend Bliss and you say, Bliss, I have no idea what I'm going to do with the rest of my life.
[9:07]And you know as well as anyone that it's killing me to pack it all up. There are half
[9:10]empty boxes in every room. It's a mess. I'm a mess. I don't know this person I've become.
[9:14]I wake up in the morning and just feel this low ache in my chest. And I can't shake it every
[9:19]night. I hope that when I wake up, it's going to be gone. But when I open my eyes in the morning,
[9:23]even before I open my eyes, I know it's still there. Which by the way is sort of how I feel about
[9:28]now. It's like, I'm going to open my eyes and, you know, our world will be back to what it was,
[9:34]you know, recording this while we're still in the coronavirus era. But this is such a great
[9:39]encapsulation of grief. And just when your life gets turned upside down, which so many people
[9:45]can relate to, especially now. Right. And you know, when I wrote this book and it took me about eight
[9:51]years to write it, I never did. I think it's seen would be so timely. You know, when I was crushed
[9:55]because I was out on book tour and I, you know, I had been planning it.
[10:00]or a year, and so we had to call it Midway.
[10:03]And it was so amazing to watch this book deliver its message.
[10:07]And one of the things that was so interesting
[10:08]is that I was doing a poll across country.
[10:10]So I was in New York, Boston, Chicago,
[10:12]and then Minneapolis, and then I was on my way to the West
[10:14]when I went home.
[10:16]And the poll showed something so interesting to me.
[10:20]And I was asking people, raise your hand.
[10:22]If you or someone you know isn't a so-now,
[10:23]what moment right now?
[10:24]And about half the room would raise their hand,
[10:26]or maybe three quarters.
[10:27]Now everybody would, right, you know?
[10:30]And then I asked people just to kind of call out
[10:32]what they thought were those,
[10:33]so now what crossroads moments in our collective.
[10:36]And it was fascinating to me,
[10:37]the top three were career, relationship, and parenting.
[10:44]And what I thought was so interesting about it
[10:46]is that it's no surprise that we go through,
[10:48]so now what moments all of our lives, that's what life is.
[10:50]But I think it is new news that we isolate when we're in them.
[10:54]And what I figured out, and I didn't even realize this
[10:57]in writing the book, was that those top three things,
[11:00]are things that we sign up for, right?
[11:02]Like we choose our partner, we choose our career,
[11:05]and we choose to have children.
[11:06]So things go wrong, of course it's going to be shame.
[11:09]And then of course we're going to isolate.
[11:12]And so I think right now, more than ever,
[11:15]we need to be connecting.
[11:16]And I love that you're doing what you're doing,
[11:18]because it allows us to do just that.
[11:20]No, thank you, that's nice.
[11:23]Yeah.
[11:24]So eight years to write this book,
[11:26]tell me a little about that process.
[11:28]And why, how did you get yourself to keep at it,
[11:31]and not give up?
[11:33]Well, the one word non-elegant answer is obsession.
[11:38]I graduated from college in 1980 and realized
[11:43]I was a writer, much to my parents' children.
[11:45]And so I've just been nose-down writing since then.
[11:49]And I've written probably like 24 unpublished books
[11:52]and some of them are even good.
[11:53]But I've got about eight that are lined up ready to go.
[11:56]I've mostly written fiction,
[11:57]but I'm known for non-fiction and essay writing.
[12:00]So it was a delight to not be the main character
[12:03]when I was out on the road in this book.
[12:05]But it's sort of a more in-depth question
[12:07]about writing.
[12:08]And I work with lots of people who want to write
[12:11]and who are word wanders.
[12:13]And I think you really have to work on the process.
[12:16]And some people are out there saying
[12:18]that you have to write every day.
[12:19]I disagree with that.
[12:20]I think that you have to create a flexible writer
[12:23]in yourself.
[12:23]And I think that you have to find a practice that works for you
[12:27]based on who you are and how someone else does it.
[12:28]So based on your responsibilities and your habits
[12:32]and your personality, and to be kind to yourself
[12:36]if you don't write every day.
[12:37]So like I always say, I've raised flexible children.
[12:41]And I like to believe that I've raised a flexible writer
[12:44]in myself.
[12:45]But I often will say that writing is my practice, my prayer,
[12:48]my meditation, my way of life, and sometimes my way to life
[12:52]as it was in the time depicted in the memoir.
[12:55]I wrote, so you have to love the process.
[12:58]And that's what I teach people how to do, since I vote.
[13:02]Well, let's back up because I know I jumped into your life
[13:05]towards the most recent parts where you wrote this novel
[13:08]because it just came out.
[13:09]But actually, you're quite known for a modern love piece
[13:12]that you wrote years ago, which ended up becoming
[13:15]a New York Times best-selling memoir called,
[13:17]This Is Not the Story You Think It Is,
[13:19]The Season of Unlikely Happiness,
[13:20]based on that modern love essay.
[13:22]So tell listeners a little more about the essay,
[13:26]why it was such a shock, and then how it became
[13:28]such a popular book.
[13:30]Oh, yeah.
[13:31]It was a shock to me.
[13:34]I have an incredible agent.
[13:36]And she had been shopping some novels around.
[13:38]And we'd run into some problems because I hadn't
[13:41]developed a platform.
[13:42]And so I wrote my way through this difficult time
[13:45]in my marriage.
[13:46]And I applied so much of what I learned
[13:49]as a writer dealing with rejection over the years
[13:51]to a marital crisis.
[13:53]And really, that book was about how the mind, both serves
[13:56]and sabotages us.
[13:58]So the idea was that we don't have to become emotional victims
[14:01]because of the things people do and say to us.
[14:03]And at that time, I heard the words nobody wants to hear,
[14:06]which is, I don't love you anymore.
[14:07]I don't want to hear that.
[14:08]And so my agent read it and said, I love it,
[14:11]but we need to work on your platform.
[14:13]So why don't you send it to modern love?
[14:16]Why don't you write the short version and send it
[14:17]to modern love?
[14:18]And of course, like anybody who's submitted to modern love,
[14:21]I've been rejected by Dan.
[14:23]Joan's there, several times.
[14:24]But I know my whole career to him.
[14:26]And in an act of utter desperation and surrender,
[14:30]I wrote an author statement, like I had never done that
[14:33]in all the years.
[14:34]And this is what I wrote.
[14:36]It says, and it's still unopposed to it
[14:38]by my computer, my author.
[14:39]I write to shine a light on a dim or otherwise pitch
[14:43]black corner to provide relief for myself and others.
[14:46]And I never realized that I was writing out
[14:49]of a place of service to others.
[14:51]And I have to believe that that informed how I wrote that essay
[14:54]because I had an hour before I took up the kids from the school
[14:56]and I just banged it out.
[14:57]And I sent it to Dan Brown's at Modern Love.
[15:00]I didn't even pitch it.
[15:01]I think I wrote, see what you think about this one?
[15:04]And he took it.
[15:04]And that little essay went crazy viral.
[15:08]And they tell me that it temporarily shut down
[15:11]the New York Times website with the comic.
[15:13]Oh my gosh.
[15:14]Oh my gosh.
[15:15]Oh my gosh.
[15:16]But I could do that again, right?
[15:17]And that was published all over the world.
[15:20]In fact, my favorite bit of a Dan mail,
[15:22]and so this is something I love sharing with people who
[15:24]are afraid to write in the mark because they're
[15:26]afraid to write past the fear of exposure,
[15:28]which I can completely understand.
[15:30]I heard from a woman from Tel Aviv.
[15:32]And she said, I'm a blind woman from Tel Aviv.
[15:35]And I've never been married nor have I ever had children.
[15:39]And I heard about your essay, and I downloaded it.
[15:44]And it helped me get through the greatest loss of my life,
[15:47]and that was the death of my seeing eye dog to cancer.
[15:50]Aww.
[15:51]Isn't that amazing?
[15:51]Oh my gosh.
[15:52]I think when you're willing to be honest and emotionally
[15:55]responsible on the page, I never exposed my husband
[16:00]outside of what he was comfortable with.
[16:02]Nor did I expose my family.
[16:04]It was really about my journey.
[16:06]I think it crosses genders and race
[16:09]and culture and ethnic groups.
[16:11]And goes from my little office in Montana,
[16:14]my heart to someone else is out there.
[16:17]That's what writing memoir and personal essay does
[16:20]and why I still do love to write in that genre.
[16:23]It helps people know they're not alone.
[16:25]It's so true.
[16:26]I mean, as someone who likes to write essays,
[16:29]but more than that, somebody who reads essays,
[16:32]I love, I mean, there's nothing that helps more than reading
[16:36]an essay and thinking, oh my gosh, me too.
[16:38]Or that totally helps me or makes me feel
[16:41]seated or makes me understand the world a little better.
[16:44]And it's just such a gift.
[16:45]So I don't know.
[16:46]I feel like the personal essay is such an important sort
[16:49]of connecting device, really.
[16:52]Yeah, I agree.
[16:53]And that's what I tried to do with Will is Grove.
[16:55]Even though it's fiction, I tried to create conflicts
[16:58]for each of these women that are really relatable.
[17:01]And questions that I have too, but I
[17:03]like to say none of these characters is me
[17:05]and none is anyone I know.
[17:06]However, they are all of us.
[17:08]Right.
[17:08]And it's a lot of people are reading it right now.
[17:11]So I'm getting feedback.
[17:12]And people are saying thank you for asking that
[17:16]inconvenient question or having that one character share
[17:20]her dirty secrets or her inconvenient truths
[17:23]because I need to go there and I've been afraid
[17:26]and just being with those women helped me to not feel so long.
[17:29]So that makes me happy.
[17:31]That's awesome.
[17:32]There's one other part of the book, if you don't mind,
[17:34]that I just wanted to flag.
[17:35]They're playing this little game where they all
[17:37]go around the room and talk about everything
[17:39]they used to feel ashamed of, but they're not.
[17:42]And so they have to keep all the girls have to girls.
[17:44]All the women have to say a phrase.
[17:47]And it's, for example, they go like this.
[17:49]Shame that I'm rich and didn't work for a penny of it.
[17:51]Shame that I'm afraid to be alone.
[17:52]Shame that I'm a hermit.
[17:53]Shame that I'm broke.
[17:54]Shame that my kids are ungrateful.
[17:56]Shame that I'm afraid to let go of my house.
[17:58]Shame that I let ambition ruin my life.
[17:59]Shame that I'm ungrateful.
[18:01]Shame that I will go down in history as the
[18:02]the motivational speaker anti-Christ.
[18:06]That's so awesome.
[18:07]And that just speaks to the humor that, like,
[18:08]courses throughout this book, too.
[18:10]It's just like all these funny little moments
[18:13]interspersed with some of the sad heartfelt moments
[18:15]so that it ends up with everybody just
[18:17]feeling completely understood.
[18:20]Yeah, you know, it's funny that I love
[18:22]that you pulled that out of the book.
[18:24]Well, I say that none of this is autobiographical.
[18:26]You can bet that writers mine their lives, right?
[18:28]That's part of what we do, even if we're writing sci-fi
[18:31]and the character spreads wings and flies out the window.
[18:34]You know, even Stephen King, when he wrote Koojo,
[18:36]probably was somehow mining his psyche, right?
[18:39]So that scene is the closest to something
[18:42]that really happened in the whole book.
[18:44]I was sitting with three friends in a cabin
[18:46]in the woods in Montana, and we started talking about shame.
[18:50]And we just started going around the table like that.
[18:52]Shame that I, shame that I, shame that I,
[18:54]and it was just like this chorus of truth.
[18:57]And, wow, I can do something right now.
[18:58]And I just, I have to put that in the book
[19:00]because what if we would that real more often, you know?
[19:03]And I think right now with COVID going the way it is,
[19:06]it's like people who would have resisted this book
[19:10]or even resisted some of the things
[19:12]that come out of these women's mouths
[19:14]even a few months ago or a few weeks ago
[19:16]are having to be real, you know?
[19:19]Right now, they're having to really expose
[19:22]how they're feeling.
[19:24]And that's why I'm happy this book came out now,
[19:26]even though the tour got canceled,
[19:28]I think it could never have been more timely
[19:30]than for a salon, right now.
[19:32]It's true.
[19:33]Still.
[19:34]I also feel like this is such a movie.
[19:36]Like this is such like a, I don't know,
[19:38]Meryl Streep, Diane Keaton,
[19:40]all sitting around the cabin, total movie.
[19:43]Was it already optioned?
[19:44]Is that in the works?
[19:45]I hope so.
[19:48]It's not easy.
[19:49]I don't have a movie feel.
[19:51]I have a couple friends who are movie producers
[19:53]and I've sent the book to them
[19:55]and I'm just sort of hoping that they'll grab it.
[19:58]Because, but I love about this book is that it's.
[20:00]sell out. You know, I mean, whoever writes the script to it, if it does become a movie,
[20:04]I think would have a real blast with it. Because to me, it's just, it's very real. And these
[20:09]women are very real. And like I said, their conflicts are really real. They're willing to go to
[20:13]the heart of the conflict. You know, and if we don't do that, how are we ever going to find
[20:17]resolve? You know, this book in no way is tied up in a pink bow at all at the end. And I think
[20:24]sometimes I feel sort of allergic to those movies or books about like four women, you know, in a cabin
[20:29]in the woods. But I'm proud of the way this book ends. And I'm proud of how deep these women
[20:35]are willing to go. So yeah, so I would love for it to be made into a movie. I'll take you to the
[20:41]Oscars. How about that? Like my oldest dream right there. That's a dream of mine too. I always hope
[20:47]to go to the Oscars. Who knows? So what is coming next for you? Are you going to write another novel?
[20:53]Did you love this process enough to do it again? What do you think? Yeah, I've written like
[20:57]I said many novels, but I'm working on a book right now about the power of authentic self-expression.
[21:02]And it all is based on what I've seen for the last eight years leading haven. And I want that
[21:07]book out there because it's not just about writing. It's about what I was saying before tapping
[21:11]into your intuition. So that's what's next. And normally I'm in my high retreat season right now.
[21:16]So those are obviously canceled. So I think I'm going to take the next month and really focus
[21:21]on that book. And then I also have a memoir that I wrote a year ago all about emptiness. And
[21:28]you know, I think that's a conversation a lot of people aren't having. A lot of women are in
[21:32]menopause and emptiness and alone if they're divorced or single months for the first time in
[21:38]their lives. And they're not having those conversations. The book is full of those conversations.
[21:42]But it's a sad book for me to read. So I don't know if you're editing it right now. So,
[21:48]but you know, funnily enough, both of the kids are home right now. And I've got a very full
[21:52]nap. So yeah, the next book is all about word wandering and I'm excited to finish it.
[21:57]Awesome. Do you have any advice? You probably have more advice than probably anybody I've
[22:00]talked to now that you lead all these writing and treats and all of that. But do you have any
[22:04]parting advice for aspiring authors? Oh sure. Let's see. The first thing is read. Please read and
[22:13]read outside of your genre as well as in your own. Because often you can see things outside
[22:18]of your own genre that you can't see in the one in which you write. And also just take
[22:23]tons of notes in your books and never lend them out to anybody because we'll think you're crazy.
[22:28]And just treat them like your textbooks. And like I said before, you got to love the process.
[22:33]And then here's something. A lot of people are using this very lofty phrase,
[22:36]including me, find your voice. What does that even mean? Well, to me, when you're in your voice,
[22:43]you know it because you lose track of time. It's even if it's dark or difficult material,
[22:49]it flows. And that's what I want people to start paying attention to.
[22:56]That's when you're in your true voice when there's ease, even if it's not easy.
[23:01]And it also really helps to write a one line statement about why you write in the first place,
[23:06]knowing that it can change season by season in your life. So I'll leave with mine again because
[23:11]I think it's helpful. I write to shine a light on a dim or otherwise pitch black corner
[23:16]to provide relief for myself and others. I'm telling you, the minute I wrote that, I have to believe
[23:22]that that's why that essay came out. And you know, the book was already written. So I was able to
[23:27]get a publishing deal with a great and almighty Amy Einhorn. I was very lucky to work with her.
[23:31]And sort of the rest is history. Wow, that's amazing. And such an inspiring story also
[23:38]good to note that you should have a book in the way in this when you pitch modern love because
[23:42]you never know. You never know, never know. And yeah, they got the essay was made into not
[23:50]one of their Amazon Prime films, but they did do the podcast, which was really fun. And they
[23:55]allowed me to go on and talk to it years later because a lot of people misunderstood that essay.
[23:59]And so it was really fun to be able to represent the message. But hopefully that's another bit
[24:04]of advice for writers. Whatever your writing needs to stand alone. And once you put it out in the
[24:09]world, it's between that book or that essay or that poem or that short story and the reader.
[24:13]And you got to let go. And that's hard to do. And so final advice would be find somebody who
[24:18]can help you not do it alone. Writing is done in solitude, but it is born of community. And that's
[24:24]part of all the retreats. Love it. So great. Laura, thank you so much. Thanks so much for coming
[24:30]in momstone time to read books. Thanks for doing my Instagram live show. And thanks for
[24:34]just being such a source of inspiration. Oh, triple you're welcome, Zibi. And thank you for all that
[24:40]you're doing in the world. We need more people like you. So thank you. So sweet. Okay. Bye,
[24:46]thank you. Bye. Bye. Thanks again for listening to my podcast. Moms don't have time to read books.
[24:53]If you liked this episode, please follow me on Instagram at Zibi Owens and at Moms don't have time
[24:59]to read books and sign up for my mailing list at Zibi Owens.com. So you can always hear about
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[25:24]Thanks for checking it out. Thanks so much to Steve and Ryan at Texture Sound for the Sound
[25:29]Editing. And thank you to Morning Moon Productions for providing this fantastic intro and
[25:33]out trim music. Thanks for listening. You could always email me at zibiatzibi Owens.com.