Zaina Arafat, YOU EXIST TOO MUCH
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[1:22]St. Airfat is the debut author of You Exists Too Much A Novel. I had the great pleasure of
[1:29]interviewing Zena through the Center for Fiction during part of their inside and out 2020
[1:35]Pride Event Series, which was fantastic. Zena is a Palestinian American writer, teacher,
[1:42]and editor. Her stories and essays have appeared in publications, including The New York Times,
[1:46]granta, the believer about the Washington Post, the Atlantic, vice, and many others. Her work has
[1:53]been an anticipated book for June of 2020 by O the Oprah Magazine, Elle, Lidhub, and so many others.
[2:01]She has an MA in International Affairs from Columbia University, and an MFA from Iowa. She has
[2:07]taught writing at the University of Iowa, the School of the New York Times, the International
[2:11]Writing Program, and Sackett Street Writers, as well as Broad in Jordan, Egypt, and Eritrea,
[2:17]where she taught creative writing as part of the U.S. State Department
[2:20]International Writing Program delegation. She's also lead workers for dreamers and DACA recipients
[2:27]through the Writers Guild Initiative. As an editor, she also curated a portfolio of prose and poetry
[2:32]in response to the travel ban and a Q&A series with Muslim writers for the margins. She's also
[2:38]served as managing editor of VinePare, the largest online publication on Y News and Culture.
[2:44]I say no? Hi. Me too. How funny. Virtually we're talking to you. I wish it was in real life,
[2:53]but such is life these days. Well, congratulations on you exist too much. I know this is my
[2:59]advance copy, but this awesome cover for everybody watching. Your debut novel, June 9th,
[3:05]it just came out. How does it feel to have a book out in the world, especially now?
[3:09]It's exhilarating, to be honest. Of course, you know, I couldn't have predicted the circumstances,
[3:15]global circumstances, that the book, the world that the book would be arriving into,
[3:21]but as a Palestinian, I feel as though, you know, resistance is such a part of my experience and
[3:30]my background, that it just sort of felt kind of right to be putting a book that has Palestinian
[3:36]characters in it out into the world at this time. So that's been nice, but yeah, it's been
[3:42]exhilarating and exciting and, you know, everything really. We were chatting before they started
[3:48]about that, you know, maybe there are some perks to doing a whole virtual book tour. You get to
[3:53]save a lot of exhaustion for traveling all over the world despite the disappointment of not being
[3:57]able to be in those places. Oh, yeah, absolutely. Yeah, and it's great to have this virtual platform
[4:03]because you can connect with people and readers and writers that are everywhere in the world.
[4:07]So that's really the plus side, I think. Yeah. So let's let's back up to your book a little bit.
[4:14]I know you're going to read a little bit to introduce everybody to your beautiful, beautiful writing.
[4:19]And as you know, I've picked this as like some of my top books in the Good Morning America article
[4:24]and all the rest. And I think your book is fantastic. And so we didn't give them a little
[4:30]preview. Okay, excellent. Well, thank you so much for all of that support. It's been, it's meant
[4:34]a lot to me. And I'm going to read, yeah, I'm going to read from, it's cool because it shines when you
[4:39]put these little amazing things, these stripes. I'm going to read from the very opening of the book
[4:43]just a few pages. So no setup needed because these are the opening pages. In Bethlehem, when I was
[4:50]12, men in airy white gowns sat at a three legged table outside the church of the nativity.
[4:57]They ran prayer beads through their fingers and sift mint tea in gold rimmed cups,
[5:02]shaped like hour glasses, steam floating off the surface and up into the bright blue sky.
[5:09]I walked past them with my mother and my uncle as we wandered through the holy city.
[5:14]One of the men called out, Haran, forbidden for the especially devout among us,
[5:20]it's haran to eat meat unless the animal has been killed in a specific way.
[5:25]Haran to drink alcohol, Haran for a pubescent girl to expose her legs in a biblical city.
[5:31]It occurred to me then that I wasn't a flat chested kid anymore, that curves had begun to appear
[5:37]along the length of me. I was no longer indistinguishable from a boy child. What should we do?
[5:43]I asked my mother. I felt a pulsing lump take shape in my throat as I noticed her jaw extended
[5:50]and temples shimmering. My great grandparents house was where we were staying and where all of
[5:55]my clothes were. 36 miles and three checkpoints away. I should have had more sense than to dress
[6:01]in such a way when we were visiting the birthplace of a prophet. I'll be it not our own.
[6:07]My mother had and still has a native's knowledge. She knows the rules instinctively in that part
[6:13]of the world and I only ever learned them by accident. Basita said my uncle. It's okay.
[6:20]We approached the main door of the church and the men hissed again. My uncle ran the tips of
[6:26]his fingers across his mustache. Then looked to my mother and me. Come, he said. I have an idea.
[6:33]We followed him into a gift shop just off my manger square. He dropped a few coins on the
[6:38]counter. Then asked the shopkeeper if we could use his bathroom. My mother grabbed a kit cat off
[6:45]the shelf and tore it open, breaking apart two sticks without a second thought. My uncle dropped
[6:51]three more coins on the counter. The man pointed toward the back. My uncle thanked him and led the way.
[6:57]His master plan was that he would trade me his trousers for my roxy surfer shorts. He went into the
[7:03]bathroom first and I could hear sounds of fumbling. His belt jangling as it hit the floor.
[7:10]He opened the door slightly and handed his pants to my mother so she could administer the swap.
[7:16]She then stood in front of me while I took off my shorts. Yellow, she said, her most frequently
[7:21]used word, hurry. I pulled on the pair of pants. They sagged on me. I had to tighten the belt buckle
[7:29]all the way up to the last hole and then rolled away so that they wouldn t fall off, leaving me
[7:35]even more exposed than I had been before. I stepped out of the bathroom and looked at my uncle.
[7:41]I examined my new curves against his pasty legs, gangly and covered in sporadic patches of hair.
[7:49]My shorts tight against his thighs. It occurred to me in that moment to question why, as a man,
[7:56]his bare legs were somehow less troubling than mine. It was a double standard, a shame I had
[8:03]simply accepted until then. In acquiring my gender, I had become offensive. But as I stood in front of
[8:11]him, an unexpected pride began to swell inside me. I liked the way his trousers made me feel.
[8:19]Like I could get attention from boys, from girls. I felt for once seen.
[8:25]In Tiwella, Willa Bennett, are you a boy or a girl? A security guard at the Intercontinental
[8:31]Hotel in Amman, Jordan, had once asked my cousin nor this question when deciding whether to lead
[8:38]her into the curtain shrouded women s check for an intimate pat down before she could enter the lobby.
[8:44]Bennett, nor had responded. Girl, she ve been insulted by the question, the uncertainty it revealed.
[8:52]But not me. Not that day. Wearing my uncle's baggy trousers, I enjoyed occupying blurred lines.
[9:00]Ambiguity wasn t unsettling yet exhilarating space. I ll stop there. Thank you.
[9:09]So I have to say, when I first started reading this, I kept flipping into the cover and I was like,
[9:13]wait, is this a memoir or is this novel? Is this actually what happened to her or not? Not that you have
[9:18]to go into every detail. But in general, how did you come up with the idea for this book and was it
[9:22]in some way autobiographical? So the elements of the book that are, in fact, autobiographical
[9:29]are the protagonists identity markers. She s Palestinian American. I am too. She is queer. She s bisexual.
[9:38]I am too. And one of the first reasons for wanting to create this book was to see those
[9:48]identities reflected on the page. Because I hadn t encountered a lot of literature with,
[9:54]you know, bicultural, bisexual characters. And, you know, the other
[10:00]there's sort of all of the stories within the book
[10:02]are fictional, but those identity markers
[10:06]derived from my own life.
[10:07]And so yeah, did you also ask where the idea came from?
[10:10]Is that, or did I just imagine that?
[10:13]I think I asked it.
[10:13]I don't know.
[10:14]I chose a bunch of questions into what?
[10:16]So, data, where'd you put up with the idea for this book?
[10:19]So, the book really began with a question pertaining
[10:24]to unattainability and why it is that things
[10:28]that are often the distance could be more appealing
[10:32]than something that you had right in front of you.
[10:34]And I tried to imagine what kind of person would
[10:38]set their sights on something unattainable
[10:41]and why they might do that.
[10:42]And I initially kind of located that question in love
[10:47]and the character setting her sights on people,
[10:51]primarily women, that she can't, that are unattainable
[10:54]for various reasons.
[10:56]And in sort of circling around that question
[10:59]and drawing those storylines, I tapped into a sort of larger
[11:05]unattainability, both in the context of her relationship
[11:09]with her mother and her mother as a force in her life
[11:13]who is very unattainable and so far as she's withholding
[11:17]and also kind of from a different world
[11:20]because she's an immigrant and the daughter
[11:22]is first generation.
[11:24]And then also a larger, more political, cultural element
[11:28]of Palestinianness and being part of a community
[11:33]where your existence has not really, hasn't been validated
[11:38]because Palestinians don't have statehood,
[11:41]they don't have the right to self-determination.
[11:43]So there were these multiple levels of unattainability
[11:47]and it was basically the process of writing
[11:50]was very circular where I just began in one circle
[11:53]and then moved to another circle
[11:55]and found connections between them.
[11:57]So yeah.
[11:59]I found one of the first interactions between the mom
[12:02]and the main character who goes unnamed,
[12:04]but the main character, so I'm not gonna say you,
[12:07]but if I do, the main character and her mother,
[12:11]she was afraid given the mother's lack of acceptance
[12:16]of her life's element, she imagined would be a lack
[12:18]of acceptance, she hadn't told her mother
[12:20]that she had a serious girlfriend with him,
[12:22]she was living and that she was in love
[12:24]and wanted to spend her life at someone and all the rest.
[12:27]And of course, the girlfriend was not happy about that,
[12:30]especially after she's pretending that her boyfriend
[12:33]is off on a business trip all the time.
[12:35]Anyway, then the mother comes and they have a meal
[12:37]at a restaurant and so the main character gently asks like,
[12:41]well, if I were to marry a woman, how would you feel?
[12:44]And the mother's like, I would be very upset
[12:47]and it becomes a whole big explosive thing
[12:49]where the mother runs out and the two women
[12:51]are left sitting there and it's like a whole thing.
[12:53]So just tell me a little more about that moment
[12:55]because I feel like it's probably something
[12:57]that a lot of people have gone through
[12:59]in any similar, and for this reason,
[13:02]for other reasons, when they're afraid
[13:03]that their partner won't be accepted
[13:05]by their parents in some way, which is very common.
[13:08]Current.
[13:09]Yeah, absolutely.
[13:11]So I mean, I think that one, there are many ways
[13:14]to sort of look at the trajectory of the book,
[13:17]but for me, this entire book is about this character
[13:21]coming out to her mother.
[13:24]And at that moment, I've, you know,
[13:28]going to dinner with the girlfriend and the mother
[13:31]and like deceiving the mother
[13:33]into thinking that the girlfriend is just a friend,
[13:37]is something that in the context of the book sort of sets,
[13:41]I wanted to show what the stakes were,
[13:44]to show the resistance that this character
[13:47]was facing when it came to gaining acceptance
[13:50]from her mother.
[13:52]And, you know, on a personal level of course, you know,
[13:55]there is especially given like cultural
[13:59]and religious background.
[14:00]I mean, like gaining that acceptance is
[14:04]and remains a journey.
[14:08]And there are many ways that parents react to it,
[14:11]at least in my experience of friends
[14:15]and, you know, members of my community.
[14:17]And I wrote it in such a way that would allow
[14:21]for this journey to sort of persist
[14:24]where, you know, the mother remains in the narrator's life.
[14:27]The narrator is really close to her
[14:29]and wants her approval and wants her love.
[14:32]And how does she go about being true to herself
[14:36]and, you know, being honest and authentic
[14:40]and gaining that approval and love, you know,
[14:44]and can she, are these things compatible?
[14:47]So that was a question that drives that narrative.
[14:51]Yeah.
[14:53]You also had this theme of eating disorders
[14:55]that ran through the narrative as well.
[14:57]And that's actually where the protagonist
[14:59]and her girlfriend at the opening had met
[15:02]and keeps coming up over and over again.
[15:05]Tell me about the decision to make that
[15:07]one of the central parts of the book as well.
[15:09]Yeah, absolutely.
[15:10]So by the way, I close my eyes sometimes when I talk,
[15:13]don't be alarmed.
[15:14]So the eating disorder components speaks to appetite,
[15:19]essentially, because this book, in many ways,
[15:22]the character struggles with or feels this,
[15:25]the need to suppress appetite,
[15:28]both in her romantic longings, as well as, you know,
[15:32]in a literal sense of starving herself.
[15:36]And so that's why that history of anorexia exists
[15:39]in the book and in this character's backstory,
[15:42]along with the fact that so much of her impulse
[15:48]is to sort of erase herself and to self negate
[15:52]because of the shame and internalized homophobia
[15:56]that she is living with.
[15:58]And so, you know, you mentioned that the narrator has no name,
[16:03]which is in that's an intentional decision
[16:06]to have her sort of exist less on the page.
[16:09]And there are some relationships
[16:11]in which she doesn't even have any dialogue
[16:14]where we never hear her speak.
[16:15]And so, an eating disorder like anorexia
[16:18]is also a way to kind of erase, try and, you know,
[16:22]exist less to negate oneself.
[16:24]So that's why the eating disorder is part of her,
[16:27]her backstory and her experience.
[16:30]Yeah.
[16:31]And I feel like it also details with this whole notion
[16:34]of deception, which you've already touched on,
[16:36]deceiving the mother, the whole secrecy behind having
[16:39]the eating disorder and that you have to keep it very,
[16:42]you know, you're hiding what's going on.
[16:44]Sometimes in plain sight, but you're trying
[16:46]to hide the mental anguish you're going through
[16:49]by an external manifestation of it.
[16:51]You had one quote in the book that said,
[16:53]keep secrets, keep us sick,
[16:55]which I felt like it was presented within the context
[16:58]of like a group therapy type of situation.
[17:01]But I feel like that's something
[17:02]that sort of pervaded the whole story.
[17:05]So talk to me about your relationship to secrets
[17:07]and why you put it in the book
[17:08]and how you sort of feel they affect our lives as well.
[17:12]Well, yeah.
[17:13]So I think that for me,
[17:16]I'll just say like for me as a queer woman
[17:21]growing up in a rather unaccepting culture
[17:24]and family, I suppose.
[17:25]There is a lot of my experience has been hiding
[17:32]and my own personal journey has been
[17:36]from coming to a place of,
[17:38]or coming from a place of hiding,
[17:40]to coming to a place of like existing louder
[17:44]and authentically, really.
[17:46]It's been a journey that's,
[17:48]the end goal is authenticity.
[17:51]And I think that for this character, you know,
[17:54]so much of her behavioral patterns,
[17:57]which are really destructive and painful to watch
[18:00]are motivated by this urge
[18:05]or this feeling she has that she has to hide who she is
[18:10]because of the fact that so much shame
[18:11]has been projected onto her.
[18:13]Some people would reject that in her case,
[18:16]she internalizes it.
[18:17]And so yeah, her behavior is motivated primarily by hiding.
[18:22]By locating love in these unattainable women,
[18:24]I mean, she's sort of pouring herself into them
[18:26]without any, she's not really even involved
[18:30]in those relationships because they're asymmetrical.
[18:33]So her journey, and I guess she has a sort of epiphany
[18:38]when she hears that quote of like secrets keep us sick,
[18:41]is that like the way out of these destructive patterns
[18:45]is to be honest with not only the people around her,
[18:49]but with herself.
[18:50]She can't even face herself.
[18:52]And that's a huge part of her pain and struggle.
[18:59]So yeah.
[19:00]Did you go through a situation similar to this
[19:04]and that you had to tell your family
[19:06]or that you kept it secret or like what happened?
[19:10]And tell me about the most emotional parts of your life.
[19:14]Tell me about your sexuality to your family.
[19:15]Go ahead.
[19:16]Just to be honest,
[19:19]without, you know, it's, yeah, of course it's been a journey.
[19:23]But it's been, it's my own journey of coming out,
[19:27]followed a different trajectory than the character's journey
[19:30]as an even so with her family as well.
[19:34]I think that what I can really relate to
[19:40]is that internalizing of there's, you know,
[19:45]homophobia around us everywhere.
[19:47]And what is interesting to me, I suppose
[19:52]and what I relate to is the way that
[19:57]that homophobia can be internalized.
[20:00]and it can lead to such sort of negative, painful repercussions for a person.
[20:10]So, you know, I understand that experience, but like the way that it manifests in her life
[20:17]is different than the way that it's manifested in mine, but and the way that her family
[20:22]responds is different than the way that my family responded. However, it's not
[20:28]been easy for either of us, I think. And I'm so sorry to cry, but you know, I think it's
[20:35]um, okay. You know, of course, like I I can't I would never write a character who was why would
[20:43]it's anyway, it makes sense that I would share some of her experiences. How did you feel once
[20:50]you got all of this down on the page? Like is this the topic that you had tried to write a lot
[20:54]about? I know you're a journalist for a while and you have an MFA and all the rest is
[20:59]something you like kept going back to to try to crack or it's something like how did it feel to get
[21:04]this version of it on the page? Well, I think fiction was a perfect vehicle for this kind of story
[21:10]for a number of reasons. I mean, one, I wanted to really challenge. I wanted to be subversive when
[21:16]it came to creating characters that were Arab and and specifically Palestinian and Muslim and to
[21:22]challenge stereotypical depictions of Arabs and Muslims. And similarly with, I wanted to challenge
[21:30]stereotypical depictions of queer people as well. And to really just three-dimensionalize,
[21:36]which I felt I had more room to do in fiction. And you know, getting the story on it,
[21:45]yeah, I mean, there was so much, it was very hard to get to write the story and to communicate
[21:54]the precise nature of her struggle because of the fact that so much of it was coming from within.
[22:03]And in many ways, she was up against herself more than anyone else. And so trying to really
[22:10]capture the psychological dynamics. And I mean, there was I just remember the moments of
[22:16]epiphany where I was great when I would realize like, ah, yes, this is this is exactly where her
[22:22]shame lies or this is exactly why her shame exists as it does. This is exactly why she's destroying
[22:31]this this potential for a healthy relationship. Like, understanding that was at once
[22:38]revelatory and really, you know, a breakthrough and also like really hard to depict in writing.
[22:45]So or how hard to depict in a way that was artful. And yeah, so so yes, it was
[22:52]exhilarating and difficult. And how how long did the whole book take to write and where did you
[22:58]write it? Like, did you outline? I know you had talked about these concentric circles essentially,
[23:02]but did you outline any of it at what point did you see the whole thing coming together?
[23:10]So yeah, so the book took six years to write. And I wrote a lot of it while I was in Iowa
[23:16]in my MFA program. And I the way that, you know, the process of writing it because the book
[23:23]involves so many flashbacks and memories that are placed within the present text, the present day
[23:32]scenes, you know, as a way to suggest how one's present reality is impacted by one's past and,
[23:42]you know, collective cultural traumas, as well as personal trauma. Because the book has that
[23:47]structure, it was really hard to kind of put that all together. And I spent a lot of time,
[23:54]because I was actually just looking through my photo album on my phone and I found all these pictures
[23:58]of pages that I would I taped all the pages of the book to the wall and would move them around and
[24:03]figure out like what should go where and how what memories spoke to which scenes and how to like
[24:10]transition into them without being heavy handed. So that was a huge part of the process was
[24:17]figuring out the structure of the book for sure. And the circles, I mean, like,
[24:23]each circle had a sort of question attached and I would often find the question and then just
[24:28]write it on a note card and tape it above my desk and hope that it would like trickle into the
[24:34]story and like just like close my eyes and allow it to infuse my brain and like just marinate in my
[24:41]so that is weird. And all these weird tactics that it wasn't like a straight-through process.
[24:48]Although there were big chunks that I wrote like in sort of like one or two months at a time.
[24:56]But yeah, a lot of this, it took a while to write this book because there were just so many
[25:01]parts I think that I wanted to fit together. How about the journey to getting it published?
[25:08]Yeah, so that journey was also interesting. I, what was the journey? That was a journey
[25:15]as it was. So one of the things that is I think I was thinking about this yesterday is that
[25:24]there is an expectation when you're writing a book and the character is let's say Arab or the
[25:30]character is Muslim or the character is queer. And if characters, if readers, let's say
[25:37]editors or agents, they don't feel that that expectation is being met. They're uncomfortable with
[25:43]that. Or they want more. Like for example, I would hear a lot of feedback from, you know, agents
[25:49]or saying things like they wanted more slices from the marketplace, things that were really,
[25:55]you know, just particularly I guess emblematic of Middle East. And I was not trying to do that
[26:03]because like I wanted the Palestinianness of the character to be just sort of woven into her
[26:10]eye debt to her and to the story and to not have it be this. And I was trying to like challenge
[26:15]these traditional images in any way. So a lot of, and similarly with creating a queer character,
[26:20]there is a host of expectations and like, you know, sort of limits as to what kind of queer
[26:26]characters you can write. And this queer character defies a lot of those expectations and
[26:31]transcends a lot of those limitations. So it was, when I found the agent that read the book
[26:38]as like a story, just a human story with a series of like, you know, love stories and one
[26:45]primary love story, that was like the right agents because she wasn't reading it in the context of
[26:53]like just reducing it to those identity markers and what the expectations around them were. And so
[27:01]that was so important to me. I felt like, I mean, I felt like, yeah, she saw the book the way I
[27:05]wanted her to or I would hope that a reader would. And it was the same with my editor. That was my
[27:11]criteria, the what I hoped for. And I and finding that was part of the process. And in the end
[27:17]was that much more rewarding because like both my agent and editor saw the story first. And that
[27:23]was what I really had hoped for. It just goes to show that having the right agent editor makes
[27:28]all the difference because then you end up with a book. It's good and authentic and honest and open
[27:33]and believable as yours, right? I mean, that's why I feel like that's why it seemed so much like
[27:40]memoir that characters were so real. It felt like you were living somebody else's experience. And
[27:46]you know, it doesn't, it's like watching a play like the background, the setting is just
[27:52]the, the, it's just the setting. It's not about, you know, the curtains and all the rest. That's just
[27:57]where the drama takes place. Right. Precisely. And that's exactly what I wanted. And to really
[28:02]and to have those elements like be a part of the story, but not like driving the story, you know,
[28:09]so that was I because I wanted her to be real human because like rather than being
[28:14]other, which is what happens with members of marginalized communities when they are depicted as
[28:19]characters and literature, they're often, you know, other than somewhere. Like I just didn't want
[28:24]that to happen. So yeah, we can, we can buy a bunch of cookbooks with all the spices if we want
[28:29]to, it's the one that's markets. And they fill a spice back to the front of every book.
[28:38]I love it. That's perfect. So how do you feel with like you're all of this hard work in these
[28:44]years of time and attention poured into this manuscript that it's out in the world. Like
[28:51]the night before it came out where you worried. And I know this is a weird time. And I know we
[28:54]talked about this at the beginning a little, but just the feeling of having to let it go and having
[28:58]that, you know, sort of let it set sail on its own out there. How do you feel about that? I mean,
[29:03]so we're using the word exhilarating, but it was it was so then it was at once terrifying
[29:12]and exhilarating because yeah, I mean, as you said, it was this book was like here like for a long,
[29:19]long, long time. And then it would gradually be here like with my agent, an editor, then like, you
[29:25]know, ARC goes. And so then just like really letting it go off to college was a, I was nervous. I
[29:35]was scared. I felt emotional. I was excited to see. I would have, you know, and what's happened
[29:42]I suppose since then has just exceeded my imagination in terms of what what I could have
[29:49]exposed what to expect. I've never published a book before so I didn't know what to expect. And just
[29:53]having people reach out and say, you know, that the book meant something to them.
[30:00]and then what, and specifically telling you the ways that it did, was everything I could have
[30:04]hoped for. I mean, that's the best part, you know? And yeah, I mean, I think that so much of,
[30:13]I think that really the beautiful part about books is, as a writer, is that process of writing
[30:19]the book, I think. And this period now, when it's in the world, I guess, is also a beautiful
[30:27]and sort of a beautiful payoff. But at the same time, like, I feel as though my connection to
[30:34]the book hasn't broken. Like, it's still, I was afraid, right? By, like, sending it off, it's what
[30:38]I'm trying to get at. Like, by sending it off, I would just sort of, like, lose something that was
[30:42]so close to my heart. But no, I feel like, by sharing it and by connecting with readers, it's become
[30:48]that much more like, close and in a different way. And so I just really, I don't know. I've enjoyed it,
[30:53]I think. Yeah. But it's like one of those, you know, those paddles used as a kid where, like,
[30:59]the ball was connected by a string. You would hit the ball. Like, I feel like you just hit the
[31:03]ball out. And now it's like coming back to you because you're bringing with all of these stuff.
[31:07]It's the perfect metaphor, right? That's exactly what it is. So, so you're coming back.
[31:14]So have you been writing since this book has sort of been shipped and sealed? Have you worked
[31:19]on something else or did you work in quarantine on another project or have you been like,
[31:26]that's enough for now? No, it's never enough. It's never enough. You think it's going to be
[31:31]another, like, okay, but it's never enough for some reason. I guess it's, I don't know. It's just,
[31:36]yeah. So I've been working on other, I've been writing essays. I've been writing another novel,
[31:41]which is very different than this novel and centered, yeah, it's very different. But the,
[31:47]I've been writing a collection of essays as well that, you know, also similarly can
[31:54]are the characters in the essays are bear a lot of the same identity markers as this protagonist.
[32:03]But that's still something that's, it's not about, you know, the essays have queerness
[32:11]as a sort of overarching theme, but they're about like their human stories. And that's been my
[32:17]goal. And, you know, I find that I keep returning to love for some reason. And so I do write a lot
[32:24]of essays that explore love in different contexts. And yeah, so that's been, it's been really fun
[32:32]and very different than writing a novel, of course. But I do work on that second novel a little bit
[32:38]every day as well because you have to keep, you can't. I'm afraid of losing momentum. I think that's
[32:44]one of my biggest fears is losing momentum. So, you know, I always insist on going.
[32:52]I've heard advice that just even opening the manuscript every day can help.
[32:56]Yeah. We just keep getting back in there. Sometimes you just stare at it. I mean, honestly,
[33:01]and that's part of the process. And that's you have to be easy on yourself. And also we're going
[33:06]through some really challenging times. And there's so much happening in the world. And like,
[33:10]yeah, it's hard to, you can't block all of that out. You don't want to. And so sometimes you're just
[33:18]like focusing on all of that instead. And that's okay.
[33:22]You feel sometimes the more the world feels unstable in and of itself,
[33:28]worth everything changing from where you're allowed to go from one day to the next and
[33:33]different rules and different up. I mean, it's just like insane. So clinging to love, like,
[33:40]you're doing in your essays is sort of the most fundamental place you could possibly write
[33:44]from right now because that's really what binds us as humans. It makes us different from
[33:49]everyone. It's like that feeling of connection when we can't be with people. It's so
[33:54]central to everything. So I mean, you said, I don't know why I did, but it's great that you're
[33:58]writing about who I think it's true. And I think that in these last few months, if anything has
[34:02]come forward, it's love. You know, I mean, truly, like just the way that people reconnect,
[34:07]the way that I watch people outside interacting with each other, the generosity, the camaraderie,
[34:12]the community. Like, so if anything, like, that's just been one of the most beautiful aspects,
[34:18]I think of all that's been happening. So, so yeah, why not think about love?
[34:23]Why do you think about love?
[34:26]Do you have any advice for aspiring authors?
[34:28]Yes, I do. So I teach writing, actually. I've been teaching writing for nine years,
[34:34]and I have lots of advice, but I'll limit it to. First of all, read, right? I mean,
[34:41]obviously reading is, I guess, the best instruction for writing. I found it to be so. And I think
[34:48]that really do two things. One is to exercise that muscle as often as you can, and to make it
[34:57]like a routine, where it's like every morning, if you have like, even if you only have 15 minutes
[35:03]to try and do a few reps, right? Or if it's once a week, but just really stick to a sort of
[35:10]routine where it becomes a part of your life, because so much of writing and becoming an author
[35:16]and is writing, right? Like, that's really the only training there is for it, besides reading,
[35:22]or the best training that there is for it. And I think another thing that's really useful
[35:26]is to find community as a writer and to find places that help forge a sense of community
[35:34]around books and literature like the Center for Fiction, right? Or to find a writing group,
[35:40]or to find, you know, a reading group. Like, all of, because writing is such an alien,
[35:47]it can be a lonely process, of course, with many hurdles. Having support is so from others.
[35:53]It's just so important, because like, I think persistence is like 60, or I don't want to put in
[36:02]percentage of how much a percentage of the process, but persisting is a huge part of like writing
[36:08]and having community helps with persisting. So, yeah.
[36:12]Yeah. And I knew you taught writing. I didn't even know that the New York Times had like a writing
[36:17]school around me until I saw that you taught there. It's like, how great is that?
[36:21]Yeah, I do. And yeah, I know. A lot of people don't know that they have a school, because I think
[36:26]a relatively new thing, but it's fun. Well, that was it. So much, really, I'm so much, that was fun.
[36:35]And for everything, it's been lovely. So yeah, I'm not only thank you for hosting this. Thank you
[36:40]to the Center for Fiction, so thank you. Thanks again for listening to my podcast.
[36:45]Moms don't have time to read books. If you liked this episode, please follow me on Instagram
[36:50]at Zibi Owens and at Moms don't have time to read books and sign up for my mailing list
[36:56]at Zibi Owens.com, so you can always hear about the latest things I'm up to.
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[37:30]at Zibi at Zibi Owens.com.