Julie Clark, THE LAST FLIGHT
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[1:20]your favorite dads and daughters can check it out for free. Julie Clark is the author of The Last
[1:25]Flight, the her latest book, and also the ones we choose. She also writes weekly for the
[1:30]Debbie Tonpo. She currently lives in California. Welcome Julie. Thanks for coming on mom,
[1:35]set out time to read facts. Thanks for having me. I'm so excited to be here.
[1:40]Could you please tell listeners what The Last Flight is about? It is the story of two women
[1:45]who are desperate to escape their lives for very different reasons and they meet at an airport
[1:52]and decide to trade plane tickets, thinking that that will give them a way to vanish once they land
[1:59]in their unknown location. And when Claire, my main character, gets off the plane in Oakland,
[2:05]she sees that the plane that she was supposed to be on crashed. And she is now in Oakland. She
[2:12]has this other woman's name, her identity, her purse, her keys. And she realizes she has
[2:20]an opportunity to start over as somebody completely new. But what she doesn't know
[2:26]is what that other woman Eva was running from. And so she slowly starts to figure out that
[2:32]Eva was not honest with her in the airport and what she told her about what was going on. So
[2:38]it's a dual POV. It goes back and forth between Claire and the present time moving forward
[2:44]and Eva in the past and we kind of see what leads up to that moment with Eva at the airport
[2:49]and what was going on with her. Wow. I mean, how could you not want to read it after that
[2:54]description? Right. That's like, I mean, when I first heard it, I was like, you have to find out
[2:58]what happens, right? It's like Edgy, you're seat. That's awesome. But it also has a lot of
[3:03]relationship drama. I mean, the beginning is a lot about what you do and you're in a relationship
[3:08]that's with an abusive more powerful man and you feel kind of trapped, which I feel like a lot of
[3:13]women can relate to feeling that trappedness, if you will definitely. Yeah, I think that for me,
[3:20]the story that I mean, when I started writing the book, it was 2017. I mean, I had the idea
[3:26]for a long time and when I was finally ready to sit down and start writing it after my first book
[3:30]had launched and it was right at the beginning of the Me Too era. And so all of these women were
[3:35]starting to come forward with their stories and and watching Dr. Belizeu Ford talk to Congress about
[3:42]what her experiences were watching these women and Hollywood come forward against, you know,
[3:48]mega producers. And it just felt like to me, nobody was believing them or they were discounting
[3:54]them or they were blaming them and saying things like, you know, well, you shouldn't have been
[3:58]there or you should have been smarter. And I have hard time with that. And I think a lot of women
[4:04]I know had a hard time with that because, you know, we're not always able to control the outcome
[4:10]wherever we are. And so a lot of that time, 2017, 2018, even in 2019, a lot of that time was
[4:21]really kind of immersed in the book, you know, and that feeling of powerlessness that you have
[4:28]when you don't think anyone will believe you. That's not sure, you know. Yeah. And to be
[4:34]feeling that way and be in pain too. It's the, I mean, that's a recipe for hopelessness.
[4:40]Yeah. And I didn't really want my characters to be hopeless. So I also wanted to be really mindful
[4:47]that the stories that we tell about women these days, it's really important what we put on the page,
[4:53]you know. So I didn't want others, my characters to be broken in a way that was, you know,
[4:59]they're not crazy. They're not unreliable. You know, there's a lot of unreliable female narrators
[5:04]and they're super fun to read because, you know, who doesn't like to watch a good train wreck,
[5:08]but I am a teacher of children. I want girls to grow up and see strong women on the page.
[5:17]And so I wanted to make sure my characters both had agency. They both had a plan. You know,
[5:22]Claire worked very hard on a plan to get out and she was really smart about it and she was really
[5:27]savvy about it. And even though it fell apart, you know, at the beginning, I don't think that's
[5:32]a spoiler to say, like, things don't go as planned for Claire. She still had a plan, you know,
[5:37]and she's, you know, I wanted to show characters who when things don't go their way, they pick up
[5:42]and make a new plan because that's what most of us do, you know, that's what the women who I'm
[5:48]friends with do, you know, when things don't go our way, we say, okay, five minutes to feel sorry for
[5:53]yourself. And then, you know, let's make a new plan because we got to keep moving forward.
[5:58]And I read in your beautiful Instagram post about how you had gone through a period of time
[6:03]where you had to make a new plan. Do you want to talk more about that period of time in your life?
[6:08]In 2015, I was diagnosed with breast cancer. It was caught early, thankfully, but it was
[6:14]something that I'd always been afraid of. My best friend had died in 2012 of breast cancer,
[6:18]so I was always like, oh my god, what if it happens to me? I'm a single mom. I have two boys,
[6:24]you know, it just, it was always something I was so scared of and then it happened, you know,
[6:29]and it's like, oh my god, now what? And you really do get right with the universe or God or
[6:37]whatever you believe in. You make yourself right with that very quickly and you learn that
[6:43]there are things you cannot control and that you can sit on the ground and scream and cry and
[6:48]say, why me? And this isn't fair, but why not me? And why should things be fair?
[6:53]And so it was really, it was really a powerful time in my life that I learned a lot about
[7:01]what it means to be afraid and still move forward. So for me, it was, I don't know,
[7:08]it was transformational for me personally. It was, and I'm very privileged in that I have a good
[7:14]job and I have good health insurance. I was able to take time off work and go on disability and
[7:20]it was such a privilege to be able to step out of my life in that way and just focus on myself
[7:28]and my kids and keeping everything as normal for them as I possibly could. I know not everybody
[7:34]has that privilege. So I was very appreciative of being able to do that and I really focused on
[7:40]my mental health and my physical health and just slowed everything down. Like literally like,
[7:46]you know, if you imagine life as sort of like a rapids where, you know, everything's happening
[7:51]so quickly and you can't miss this and you can't miss that. Like you're just stepping out of the
[7:55]water and sitting down on the shore and just watching it all go by and there's a definite power
[8:01]to being able to do that, not only successful with that. Well, it's really wonderful the way
[8:08]you've taken that experience and shared it and you are using it to help people. I mean,
[8:13]it's funny. And I don't mean to in any way compare your personal, you know, struggle with
[8:19]breast cancer to the world pandemic now. But some of the things you were saying to resonate with
[8:24]what people are saying now and that everybody is forced to do just what you're saying. Spend
[8:28]time with their kids. Be it on. I don't give it. I think it's very comparable. You know,
[8:35]I think that, you know, it's very scary time. And you know, as you know, New York City has hit
[8:41]especially hard, you know, I have friends there who are not feeling well and it's scary. It's
[8:47]very scary. And you know, here in California, worse, we're hit hard not nearly as hard yet as New
[8:54]York is, but you know, there is time to like go for walks with my boys and you know, watch them
[9:00]play with the dog and it is very reminiscent to me of that time personally to like just stop
[9:07]doing everything and just think about, okay, you know, and I got into habit of always every time I
[9:14]started to feel really stressed or really worried, I would always get into habit of stopping and
[9:17]saying like in this moment right now, right this moment, I'm okay. I'm okay. I don't know what's
[9:23]going to happen five minutes from now. I don't know what's going to happen in five days from now,
[9:27]but right now, I'm okay. And that really helped me a lot then. And it helps me now every time I
[9:33]start, you know, hyperventilating. I'm like, oh my god, I can't read this anymore. And what are they
[9:38]doing? I'm like, deep breath, you know, there are some grown-ups in charge, maybe not the grown-up we'd
[9:44]like to be in charge, but there are some people who are in charge and just take a deep breath.
[9:49]Yeah, I think this is like one big exercise in mindfulness. This is like the mindfulness community
[9:55]being like, huh, hey, I got you all to try it. I definitely,
[10:00]I think that's true.
[10:01]And I'm doing a lot more meditating
[10:02]than I have in a long time.
[10:03]And it's reminding me again of like, wow, that really works.
[10:06]Oh, it's so funny.
[10:10]I mean, not funny, it's scary and awful,
[10:11]but it's funny too.
[10:12]I mean, you have to find the humor, otherwise,
[10:14]like, how do you get through?
[10:15]It's like, you don't.
[10:17]And then you make yourself sick, literally.
[10:19]Stress causes illness, I think.
[10:21]And it weakens your immune system.
[10:23]And then, you know, you're right where you need to be
[10:25]or you don't want any, I should say.
[10:27]I read that.
[10:28]I mean, I knew that obviously.
[10:29]It's like, I know that.
[10:30]But when I was reading lists of how to prepare sort of
[10:33]as this whole thing was going down a couple of weeks ago,
[10:35]and they were saying, you know, how stress
[10:37]as just what you're saying is such an immune suppressant,
[10:40]really.
[10:41]And I was like, I can't afford any immune suppressants
[10:44]around my kids right now.
[10:45]So I can't be this stress.
[10:46]I just cannot be stressed about this.
[10:48]I have to drink water and move my body to all those things
[10:53]that I usually ignore.
[10:54]I have to.
[10:55]So.
[10:56]Yeah.
[10:57]And luckily, you have lots of time too.
[10:59]Yeah.
[11:00]And we have still some days combined.
[11:02]I'm like, huh, those 12 minutes of exercise.
[11:04]When was I going to fit that in?
[11:06]I know.
[11:07]It's 937.
[11:08]Time to meditate.
[11:09]Yeah.
[11:11]Oh my gosh.
[11:12]So going back to your book for a second,
[11:14]how, so when you were writing this book,
[11:17]tell me what your process was like.
[11:19]And I know it's your second book.
[11:20]And I've heard that writing a second book is way harder
[11:22]than writing the first book, this like sophomore panic attack
[11:25]or something that happens to people.
[11:27]Did you find that or not really?
[11:29]No, because it was a totally different book from day one.
[11:33]My first book was definitely a market women's fiction.
[11:35]And it could be categorized as like a family drama
[11:39]suspense sort of, but not really.
[11:43]I mean, really, you have to turn it sideways and squint
[11:46]with one eye and then maybe.
[11:48]But sure, let's say that.
[11:49]And but this one is just totally not that.
[11:52]It's domestic suspense.
[11:54]So I had to kind of figure out how to write that.
[11:57]So that was new.
[11:58]And, you know, my process is,
[12:01]I'm noticing with the second book
[12:02]and now as I'm working on the third book,
[12:04]it's different every time.
[12:06]So I can't with the last flight,
[12:09]I wrote the first draft in probably three or four months.
[12:13]Wow.
[12:14]I knew exactly what I wanted to have happen.
[12:17]I knew exactly where I wanted it to go.
[12:19]I knew exactly how it was gonna end,
[12:22]how I wanted it to end.
[12:24]And I just needed to get everybody from
[12:26]A to B to C to D to the ends.
[12:28]And then I would go back and kind of refine it.
[12:32]And I thought that's how I work.
[12:34]That's how I work.
[12:35]And that's how I work.
[12:35]I read an interview Slesting did about her sister
[12:39]who's an engineer and the engineer motto is,
[12:43]you know, first you make it work
[12:45]and then you make it elegant.
[12:46]And I was like, that's what I do.
[12:48]You know, I'm a first you make it work
[12:50]and then you go back and really refine it
[12:52]and you make it elegant and you get all the language
[12:54]and character and backstory and emotion on the page
[12:57]after you've blocked out the scenes.
[13:00]But then you know what?
[13:01]Guess what?
[13:02]With like three, I'm not working like that.
[13:03]So that's different.
[13:05]It's kind of like building a house right first.
[13:07]Do you have to, I mean, not to bring up more cliches.
[13:10]But it's true.
[13:11]It's like you can't decorate at the beginning
[13:13]first you have to figure out where the walls goes.
[13:15]Right. And the plumbing and all the stuff
[13:17]that you don't really want anybody to see
[13:19]which are the story beats and the turning points.
[13:21]And you don't want anybody noticing those.
[13:23]You just want them experiencing them.
[13:26]So yes, it's a little bit like that.
[13:29]And how did you actively learn
[13:32]how to write this type of a book?
[13:33]Like a domestic suspense book.
[13:35]Did you like read an article or take a class?
[13:38]I know you are a teacher yourself,
[13:39]but it's a unique genre, right?
[13:41]It's like it has some formulaic elements to it
[13:44]to create drama.
[13:46]Yes, I've talked to a lot of friends
[13:47]who write exclusively in this genre
[13:49]and had a lot of help and a lot of critique partners
[13:52]who were very experienced in this category
[13:55]to give me tips.
[13:56]My agent was great too.
[13:57]And I worked with an outside editor
[13:59]who was also very good.
[14:00]So I had a lot of outside help to kind of teach me
[14:03]how these things are supposed to go.
[14:05]But a lot of it is just done by instinct,
[14:08]by reading a lot in the genre.
[14:11]So I was heavily influenced by Tana French
[14:14]and heavily influenced by Megan Miranda
[14:17]and Sally Hepport is another one, Lisa Jewel.
[14:20]Like I just literally immersed myself
[14:23]in these authors and these stories and studied it
[14:27]to see kind of like how do they pace it?
[14:31]How even like down to,
[14:34]I noticed that there's like five page chapters.
[14:37]Interesting.
[14:38]Okay, I didn't do that.
[14:39]I can't.
[14:40]I don't think I can write chapters that small,
[14:42]but you know, there's definitely like scenes
[14:45]that they do moves that they make.
[14:47]And as a teacher of writing,
[14:49]I'm already thinking through that lens
[14:52]because all of what I do when I teach writing with students
[14:55]is we study exemplars.
[14:58]We study books, we do author studies.
[15:02]And so I'm already really used to looking at books like that.
[15:06]So it's easy for me to see those author moves
[15:08]that are maybe not so explicit to straight up readers.
[15:12]How, what grade do you teach?
[15:15]Fifth grade.
[15:16]Oh, fifth grade English.
[15:17]Wow.
[15:18]It's great, everything.
[15:19]It's great, everything.
[15:20]Everything, I guess.
[15:22]Yeah, everything.
[15:23]Everything.
[15:24]I have two sixth graders right now.
[15:27]So, oh my goodness.
[15:29]Cool.
[15:30]Wow.
[15:31]Well, do you feel like this extra layer of pressure
[15:34]being like teaching what you're trying to do?
[15:37]No, because I keep my teaching and my writing life
[15:40]very separate.
[15:40]I never want anybody in my school community
[15:43]to feel like I'm not bringing 100% to my teaching day.
[15:46]As a parent myself, like I want to make sure my kids are,
[15:50]their teachers are showing up every day
[15:51]with 100% of their attention on the kids and the teaching.
[15:56]So I don't, every now and then I'll bring in
[15:58]like revised page or a chapter.
[16:01]And I'll say like, this is number 12.
[16:04]And it's like covered with marks.
[16:06]Because when I say what's time to revise your writing,
[16:09]they read it through why it's changed your word, turn it in.
[16:12]And it's like, that's not really what I meant.
[16:15]So I do use things like that, but mostly I don't.
[16:18]Since I don't write for kids, I don't.
[16:20]I don't, you know, I try to keep them separate.
[16:23]And what's your new book about?
[16:25]My new book is about an author, a struggling author,
[16:29]who is the daughter of a famous literary icon
[16:32]who only ever wrote one book,
[16:35]much beloved in the literary community
[16:37]and deceased unfortunately, but she is guarding a secret
[16:42]about him that would absolutely shatter everything
[16:46]everybody believes to be true about him.
[16:49]And so on the eve of her memoir about him,
[16:53]that's being released alongside the 50th edition
[16:57]of his iconic book, An anonymous blog post comes up
[17:02]that basically says that everything,
[17:05]everything the world believes about Frederick Solomon is wrong.
[17:09]And over the next eight weeks,
[17:10]it's going to dismantle all of the lies.
[17:12]And so my main character, Trixie,
[17:14]is trying to figure out who this is and how do they know
[17:19]and what do they know and everything that she believed to be
[17:22]true is also not true.
[17:25]Wow.
[17:26]And so how are you coming up with these great ideas?
[17:29]They just got hurt you like a dream or what?
[17:32]No, I was framed to my ideas.
[17:34]No, they kind of just occurred to me.
[17:36]And just when I start to panic about like,
[17:39]oh my God, what am I going to write next?
[17:41]Like an idea comes up and I think, oh, okay, there it is.
[17:44]And usually I need about a year to sort of just let it sit
[17:48]in the back of my head.
[17:49]And I sort of think about it on my walks.
[17:50]And I talk about it with some writing friends
[17:53]and a little bit with my agent and kind of let it percolate.
[17:58]So just, but it's one at a time.
[18:00]I don't have like, I don't have a notebook full of ideas.
[18:03]I don't have lists or note cards or anything.
[18:07]It really is literally like one idea at a time.
[18:09]And if I don't know what it is yet, I just know it will come.
[18:12]I just don't know yet, but it'll be there.
[18:14]So when I need it, that's a lot of confidence in the universe.
[18:17]So I get, I do have a lot of confidence in the universe.
[18:22]I know, it's really great.
[18:23]It's refreshing and it's awesome.
[18:25]It's snow.
[18:26]It's like you might as well.
[18:27]I mean, why not?
[18:28]Why go a different way this, right?
[18:31]Yeah, yeah.
[18:32]I'm a big believer.
[18:33]The universe will always give you what you need.
[18:35]The moment you need it and not in a minute sooner.
[18:37]So she'll.
[18:39]I feel like I'm going to have to come to you for all of my,
[18:42]you know, my fill of Zendam, I can't even speak.
[18:45]I'm like, oh my goodness.
[18:46]I just wanted to read a quote or two from the book.
[18:49]You wrote, it's a complicated grief, not just the loss
[18:51]of my name and identity, but also the life I once hoped I'd have.
[18:55]The death of any dream deserves to be mourned.
[18:58]All its intricate facets touched one last time.
[19:01]Do you feel like you have personally had dreams you've had
[19:04]to let go of or do you just feel like this is something the character
[19:07]but undoubtedly be feeling?
[19:10]I think that definitely I, everybody has dreams that they thought would happen
[19:15]and don't happen the way they want them to you.
[19:18]And I think that there is a fine line between wallowing and that
[19:24]and honoring it like what Claire is doing there and saying like, I accept that
[19:29]these are the mistakes that I made, I accept that I'm going to lose something
[19:34]as a result of those mistakes and to just, you know, give it one last squeeze
[19:41]and then let it go, you know, it's easier said than Dendam, though, you know,
[19:45]I think we all have regrets.
[19:47]Yeah, it's always nice to know that all the bad stuff in our lives
[19:51]can actually be used to become great books, right?
[19:55]If you didn't have the bed, I mean, I had coffee with a friend the other
[19:59]and she's like, I don't.
[20:00]I think I could ever write anything because like nothing that bad has ever happened to me.
[20:03]She's like, I feel guilty, but my life has been pretty easy.
[20:07]So that's why I can't think of anything to write about.
[20:10]Yeah, I think it's hard.
[20:12]You know, I think I spend a lot of time, I think for me, it's my imagination that causes problems,
[20:20]but also gives me really good writing ideas.
[20:22]You know, so I've always been a rather fearful person.
[20:26]You know, when I was little, I was always afraid of being kidnapped.
[20:29]So I was always on the lookout for like, you know, who's that person?
[20:33]What's going on with that panel van, you know, that kind of thing?
[20:37]And as a mom, I'm also very paranoid, you know, now it's not so much what's going on with that panel van,
[20:43]but it's like, boys, do not walk next to a panel van.
[20:46]Here's why, you know, but I also think that it helps me sort of imagine all of these
[20:53]what-if scenarios, you know, and so with Claire, I've always been fascinated with the idea
[21:00]of could somebody really disappear from their life, like literally vanish without a trace,
[21:07]without any like federal help from, you know, witness protection or something?
[21:11]Could you really do it?
[21:12]Could you, you know, and so I have a friend who used to work for the FBI and so I called him
[21:18]up and I'm like, got to, you know, how would somebody get a good passport, a good idea, good,
[21:26]so that it's not questioned. And he said the Russian mafia is the way to go.
[21:31]Like, they're the only game in down. And so, and you just kind of go from there, like,
[21:36]okay, so I have a character who, for whatever reason wants to leave her life, why,
[21:41]which she want to leave her life, you know, for a while I thought maybe she's a bookie,
[21:46]maybe she likes tired of the life, tired of the game, you know, but that, you know, and then you
[21:51]just kind of go down a lot of dead ends of, you know, well, then I'm going to have to like find a bookie
[21:55]and talk to a bookie and then I'm like that, back up, you know.
[21:58]Now, I'd rather talk to a privileged New Yorker or something like that who could relate.
[22:04]I think so. That's a much more pleasant conversation.
[22:07]No, I'm, no offense to any bookies listening, but, you know, yeah, no, I mean, yeah, definitely
[22:12]we don't want to offend the bookies. Okay, one more quote I wanted to ask you about.
[22:16]So, the tagline that you came up with sort of for the booker that is in all the advertising
[22:20]is not really quote, but it says, with your back against the wall, would you be brave enough to
[22:24]take the chance that you're given? So, I was wondering, did this come from the things that have
[22:30]happened to you? Like, this come from getting through breast cancer. Did this come from, or were
[22:34]you born, like, with the skill or do you not, or it doesn't not relate to you at all?
[22:40]The skill to take the chance I'm given. Yeah, just to like, oh, no, I'm a total chicken.
[22:46]I'm a total chicken. If somebody approached me in the airport and wanted to trade tickets,
[22:51]I don't care what song and dance she was telling me. There is no way I would be trading tickets
[22:56]with her. I don't know. I mean, maybe if I was running from what Claire was running from,
[23:02]maybe I would, but, you know, I don't know. I don't know that I would be brave enough.
[23:08]You know, that's why I write the characters that I write, because I like to write people who
[23:12]will do things that I can't or won't do. You know, that's the fun part of reading is going along
[23:17]for a ride that we would never in a million years take ourselves. No way. You know, that's what
[23:22]great fiction does. So, no, I'm not brave. There's no way I would probably let that chance
[23:28]pass me by be too scared. I'd be too scared, I think. Me too, by the way. I would be like
[23:35]waiting at my gate half an hour early, you know, take it in hand, you know, no one's allowed to
[23:39]go to the bathroom for like 30 minutes before we board. So, yeah, that would be me too.
[23:46]Do you have any advice for aspiring authors? Just keep doing it. Keep writing every day,
[23:52]write every day. You know, I write in the morning, very, very, very early in the morning.
[23:58]For two hours before my kids get up, before I have to get ready to go to work, because I'm
[24:02]useless after work. There's no way that I can write after teaching a full day and making
[24:07]dinner. I'm getting homework done with kids and making sure everybody is where they need to be.
[24:12]And then sit down to write like, there's no way. So, I get up very, very early in the morning
[24:17]and I can tell you that in two hours a day, you can write an entire book in a few months,
[24:24]like it's possible to do. So, do that. Find a writing community, find critique partners. There are
[24:32]tons of places online that you can go for support for classes, for conferences. Even in a pandemic,
[24:40]you can do that. Make some writing friends, read a lot of books. You know, you don't need to have
[24:46]an MFA to write a book, get an agent, sell a book. You just don't. I mean, if you want to,
[24:53]do, that's great, but you don't have to. Just write every day. I'm just kind of
[24:58]of preventable. It's pretty to all advice. Everybody says that. No, everybody has a unique point
[25:02]of view. I mean, what you just said a minute ago, I was thinking to myself, oh, I need to write that
[25:07]down. How we read for something that we would never do ourselves. See, I already can't remember it,
[25:11]but it was really great. I'll remind it. Something like that you would never do. You write
[25:17]because you can't or won't do whatever emotion is required. That's really interesting.
[25:23]I want to do like a psychological study. I feel like I've interviewed so many authors at this point.
[25:27]I want to do like, I was a psych major. I feel like I want to do like the correlation between
[25:31]different, you know, maybe anxiety disorders and authors. There's such a high correlation.
[25:39]I feel like this is why I have like found my people because like I understand like what everybody
[25:44]is saying suddenly, you know, as opposed to like consultants or any way.
[25:48]All pretty neurotic. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So it's great. I love it.
[25:58]Water here. Well, anyway, thank you so much for coming on momstone. I have time to read books.
[26:02]Thank you so much for having me. It was a blast.
[26:05]Thanks again for listening to my podcast. Moms don't have time to read books. If you liked this
[26:10]episode, please follow me on Instagram at zippyowans and at moms don't have time to read books
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[26:40]Thanks for checking it out. Thanks so much to Steve and Ryan like texture sound for the sound editing
[26:45]and thank you to Morning Moon Productions for providing this fantastic intro and now trim music.
[26:50]Thanks for listening. You could always email me at zippyatzippyowans.com.