Jasmine Guillory, PARTY OF TWO
[0:08]Hi, I'm Zibi Owens and you're listening to Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books.
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[1:22]I had a really great time talking to Jasmine Gillery about her latest novel called Party
[1:27]of Two.
[1:28]Jasmine Gillery is the New York Times best-selling author of five romance novels, including
[1:32]The Wedding Date and the Proposal, which was a Reese's Book Club pick.
[1:36]Her work has appeared in Oh the Oprah Magazine, Real Simple, and Cosmopolitan.
[1:40]She currently lives in Oakland, California.
[1:43]Welcome Jasmine.
[1:44]Thank you so much for coming on Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books.
[1:46]Thank you.
[1:47]It's a pleasure to be here.
[1:48]I have to say I listened to your book, which I don't always do, but I've been getting
[1:52]more into audiobooks and I was going on a run and I was listening to all these descriptions
[1:56]of like desserts and pies and cakes and I was like, oh my god, I don't even think I should
[2:01]run anymore.
[2:03]I wanted to just go right to the nearest bakery and forget the exercise.
[2:06]Both things are great.
[2:09]My most important question that I have to start this with, was there actually a bakery
[2:13]in LA that had a cake that was this good that you had in mind when you wrote this because
[2:16]if so, I have to get there?
[2:17]No, but there are a lot of cakes that I have had in mind that are that good and so I sort
[2:23]of based all of my cake knowledge on cakes that I've either baked or had in my life.
[2:28]So I put those in the book.
[2:30]Okay.
[2:31]Because I was ready to like text you, not that I have yet and be like, I have to get
[2:34]to this bakery.
[2:35]The pie place in LA is real, though.
[2:37]It is.
[2:38]Yes.
[2:39]Yes.
[2:40]My favorite cakes in LA are from Susie Cakes.
[2:41]Have you had those cakes?
[2:42]Yes.
[2:43]They have them in the Bay Area as well.
[2:44]Oh great.
[2:45]Okay.
[2:46]Well, anyway, now that we've gotten that out of the way.
[2:47]So congrats at the time of our talking, your book just came out the day before yesterday.
[2:51]So that's really exciting.
[2:52]Yes.
[2:53]Very exciting.
[2:54]Would you mind just telling listeners what this book is about, please?
[2:57]It's called Party 2.
[2:58]It's about, it's a romance.
[2:59]It's about a layman row who moves to LA at the very beginning of the book.
[3:04]She's just left New York and she's starting her own law practice in Los Angeles with
[3:10]one of her best friends.
[3:11]And at the hotel bar early in her time at LA, she gets into a conversation with the
[3:16]charming stranger.
[3:17]She's a little suspicious of him because he's maybe a little too charming, but they chat
[3:22]for a while.
[3:23]She goes back to her room and she turns on the news and realizes that the guy that
[3:26]she'd been talking to was a senator from California.
[3:30]And then they run into each other again, a few weeks later, Max, who is the senator, has
[3:35]been thinking about Olivia the whole time and it's very excited to see her again.
[3:40]And he starts wooing her by sending her a cake and so they start a little relationship of
[3:45]it.
[3:46]There's one scene right at the beginning after they first met when she goes back to the
[3:50]hotel room and you talk about it and you say, she turned on the TV, but she took out
[3:54]her contacts.
[3:55]I was like, oh no, she's going to hear but she's not going to know and she's going
[3:58]to keep missing each other and only we're going to know and I'm going to have to live
[4:01]with that knowledge that I know and she doesn't.
[4:04]So thank you for not doing that.
[4:05]That would have been torture.
[4:06]Yeah.
[4:07]That would have been torture.
[4:08]So I know this is like book five in your whole series of dating books and all the rest.
[4:13]How did this whole thing come about?
[4:15]Did you have an idea for all of these stories at once?
[4:17]Did you see them all as the series was one, the first idea?
[4:20]Like how did this whole thing happen?
[4:23]I definitely didn't see them all at first.
[4:26]I wrote the wedding date, which is my first book and that book is about Olivia Sister
[4:30]Alexa and Olivia appears in that book and so, you know, there are a number of characters
[4:36]who first appear in one book that I enjoy writing and I sort of think maybe someday
[4:42]I could write their book too, but it sometimes takes a while to like either figure out what
[4:48]their story is or to like work up the ability for me to really write that story and give
[4:54]it justice.
[4:55]And so with Olivia's story, I actually have the dream of an idea early on, like maybe
[5:01]I'm a little data politician, but I didn't.
[5:04]I think I needed a lot more time both, you know, in writing and just like figuring
[5:11]out really what that story would be, what struggles she would go through and what struggles
[5:16]she would go through and how they would come together.
[5:18]So it was really fun to come back to Olivia and get to write her story this time.
[5:22]And how did you get the background information about Max and even the loneliness of being
[5:26]a senator and like his relationship with Wes and how like senators are just people too?
[5:31]And like how did you research that?
[5:34]Did you know a senator or it's imagination or what?
[5:36]It's a little combination of everything.
[5:38]I used to work on Capitol Hill a long time ago, it's a little bit it comes from that,
[5:42]also doing research, you know, it's funny because like a lot of senators and members
[5:47]of the House are roommates, you know, they have to have two different places and a lot
[5:52]of them don't want to spend a lot of money on a place in D.C. so they kind of like
[5:56]shack up in apartments and in houses together and so learning kind of that, talking to
[6:01]friends who have also worked on the Hill and worked in politics.
[6:04]So a lot of that background came from reading articles and then just talking to people
[6:09]about what that kind of life is like, especially as a new senator or as a new politician
[6:15]because it's very different than people who has been there for a long time.
[6:19]So how did you get from Capitol Hill to here?
[6:22]Well, you know, that's a long story.
[6:25]Okay.
[6:26]And between those times I went to law school and was a lawyer for a number of years and
[6:30]then started writing and so, you know, for a while I was both a lawyer and writer at the
[6:36]same time at first I was just sort of writing for fun and to learn something new and
[6:43]to give myself something to do after work and then it became a passion for me and then
[6:47]a career and so I managed to kind of do both for a while and then now I'm mostly concentrating
[6:52]on writing.
[6:53]So your first novel is that was that actually the one that got published or did you have
[6:58]a few you tried that never sold or how did it work?
[7:00]I had kind of one and a half that I tried and never sold.
[7:03]The first one I wrote was actually not a romance but I, well, it was a young adult romance
[7:08]so kind of different and so I wrote that one and then I kind of worked on another book
[7:14]that I wrote the first half of kind of over and over again but working on that taught me
[7:19]a lot about what I need and who I am as a writer so I really love both of those books
[7:25]and working on them and working on them both taught me a lot and I learned so much from
[7:29]them.
[7:30]And what is your process like now?
[7:31]How do you show people as you go?
[7:33]How did you just teach yourself how to write great romance novels?
[7:36]And by the way, when I was looking for this book, I was looking in the fiction section
[7:40]and then the book star I went to was in the romance section with only like two other books
[7:44]to be on it.
[7:45]I mean, they're like slim pickings these days and bookstores but I was sort of surprised
[7:48]to see it there because I had already listened to it and I was like, well, what's the difference?
[7:52]Why was it in that?
[7:53]There's so many books that are fiction that also have romance as a theme.
[7:57]What's the differentiating factor?
[7:58]I think, you know, sometimes it can be a little vague.
[8:01]I mean, the really romance, like the key story is about the romance and is about the couple
[8:07]but a lot of romances can blend over and go back and forth.
[8:11]So it honestly really depends on how bookstores shelves things, right, to see what section
[8:16]I'm in or who I'm next to in a bookstore.
[8:18]But you had another question before that.
[8:20]No, that's okay.
[8:21]I don't remember.
[8:22]That was a good thing.
[8:23]We'll go with that one.
[8:25]So tell me about how much you love writing about food because I love reading about food
[8:29]and I love eating food and I know that that was probably the best part for me.
[8:34]It was going through all these different, you know, discussions about food and LA versus
[8:38]food in New York and just so many different food conversations, which I could have all
[8:43]day long myself.
[8:44]So did that just happen on its own or you just love food or you just love writing
[8:49]about food or what?
[8:50]I just love food and I love writing about it.
[8:51]But I also, I'm always curious as to what people are eating, right?
[8:55]Like when, like if I'm watching a TV show and they go out to dinner, I want to know what
[9:00]they're ordering.
[9:01]Like I'm interested in that.
[9:02]I want to know where they go or, you know, if someone's a picky eater or not or do they
[9:08]like to share or don't they?
[9:09]I think all of that is just interesting and tells me something about a character and just
[9:14]build on that.
[9:15]And so that's something like I tend to have even a lot more about food in my first drafts
[9:19]and then I have to edit stuff out because I just find all of that and mostly fascinating
[9:25]when I'm writing characters and when I'm writing stories.
[9:28]And a lot of times I feel like that's ignored.
[9:30]Like sometimes, you know, I'll be reading books and see them going or doing things from
[9:35]like morning to night and I think they stop to eat like when you should be hungry.
[9:40]I was so upset.
[9:42]The show 24, I used to be obsessed with that show for like a period of time in my life,
[9:46]I think before I had kids.
[9:47]And I remember thinking how did he not eat in 24 hours?
[9:50]Right.
[9:51]Like I couldn't go 24 hours that eat.
[9:52]Where is the food in the Sims TV show?
[9:54]Just like even need a power bar or something.
[9:56]Right.
[9:57]Yeah.
[9:58]Yeah.
[9:59]I feel like.
[10:00]Yeah, food is such a, such a through line.
[10:02]In second grade, in second grade one, my mom tells me
[10:05]I called everybody in the class
[10:06]and asked them what they had for dinner.
[10:08]So anyway, I love you.
[10:12]And it tells a lot about people.
[10:13]I mean, they always say in fiction, right?
[10:15]Show, don't tell.
[10:15]I feel like what people eat and the way they eat.
[10:17]It says a lot.
[10:19]That's why like when you go on a date at a restaurant,
[10:21]you get a lot of information.
[10:22]Exactly, exactly.
[10:24]So funny.
[10:25]Did you ever have something where you had like a big
[10:27]disagreement over like how to eat or sharing, not sharing?
[10:31]I know that was like a question in the book.
[10:32]Like do you like to do family style
[10:35]or not anything like that or everything?
[10:37]Well, it's funny because I have some very good friends
[10:40]who are not sharers and I am very much a sharer.
[10:43]But you know, as long as like we establish
[10:45]that at the beginning, it's fine.
[10:47]You just have to, I think sometimes people are anxious
[10:51]about saying how they feel about one or the other.
[10:55]And I think just communication
[10:57]is the most important part of all of that, you know?
[10:59]And talking about it and talking it through.
[11:01]It's so true.
[11:02]My first date with my husband, he was like,
[11:03]oh, you wanted to share everything?
[11:05]And I was like, no, no, I don't.
[11:07]This is not gonna work out.
[11:09]But anyway, I got over it.
[11:11]So what's your writing process?
[11:12]Like when you sit down to start one of the books
[11:15]and obviously it must have changed over time now
[11:16]that you've become more of a pro at writing,
[11:18]knowing what you like to write and everything.
[11:20]How long does each book take?
[11:21]Where do you like to write?
[11:23]It has changed over time.
[11:24]All the certain things have stayed the same.
[11:27]I mean, I try, I'm not always successful with this,
[11:29]but I try to write every day when I'm working on a draft
[11:32]just to keep the universe in my head
[11:34]of who I'm writing, what the story is,
[11:38]who these people are, it just sort of helps me,
[11:40]because then even when I'm not writing it
[11:43]when I'm just sort of going through my day
[11:45]or, you know, running errands and driving on the street,
[11:47]something will pop up then I'll think about them
[11:49]and make a realization about the book.
[11:51]I tend to try to come up with the story
[11:54]and advance sometimes it's a detailed outline.
[11:58]Sometimes it's a very vague one.
[12:00]It just sort of depends on what I think of, you know,
[12:04]at the beginning, but I need a path in order
[12:07]to start something a lot of times it changes a lot
[12:11]on that path as we, you know, as I get through the book
[12:14]and as I figure out more and more about the characters,
[12:17]there's sometimes certain things that, you know,
[12:19]a scene I had in mind when I started a book
[12:22]and when I get halfway through I realized,
[12:23]oh, these two people would never do that.
[12:25]And so then I have to, you know, figure it out again
[12:28]and go back to the drawing board and think that through.
[12:31]But it is always, you know, a little bit of a process.
[12:33]I usually don't share it with anybody else,
[12:36]at least until I've gotten a few drafts in,
[12:39]mostly because I'm still trying to figure stuff out.
[12:41]So sometimes I will talk through if I'm trying to figure out
[12:44]like a certain plot point or something that happens,
[12:48]I'll talk it through with other friends of mine
[12:50]and see, okay, what would you do here, you know,
[12:54]should it be this or that or what do you think?
[12:56]And that helps me work through things.
[12:58]But a lot of times there's no point in me
[13:00]sharing something with someone too early
[13:02]because I already know it's not working
[13:04]and I'm trying to fix it.
[13:05]And then once I've done as much as I can,
[13:09]then I share it with other people and think,
[13:10]all right, help me fix this part.
[13:12]What do you think does this work, does it not?
[13:14]And I know this doesn't work.
[13:16]So help me figure out how to fix it.
[13:19]It is a lot of the conversations that I have
[13:21]with other writer friends.
[13:23]That makes sense.
[13:23]In my editor.
[13:24]In your editor.
[13:26]For Olivia, so much of what made her so likable
[13:29]is all the interior monologue that you share?
[13:31]Like, is he telling the truth?
[13:33]Did he just stand me up?
[13:34]Should I trust him?
[13:35]What do you think?
[13:36]Did it, like, is that something you relate to?
[13:38]Like, are those the thoughts that you would have
[13:40]or is that all character?
[13:41]Like, do you relate more to different characters
[13:43]that you've created or is that like,
[13:45]in those situations, that's probably what you would be thinking?
[13:47]You know, sometimes it's one and sometimes it's another.
[13:49]I mean, I try to think of,
[13:51]I have a constant interior monologue for everything I'm doing.
[13:54]And so I try to think of what would this character think through?
[13:58]Like, what would she be anxious about?
[14:00]Would she not be anxious at all in this situation?
[14:03]And why would she be perfectly confident?
[14:05]Would she be excited about this or dreading it?
[14:08]Like, and those are all the emotions
[14:10]that I'm trying to think through.
[14:11]And then I want to reflect those emotions
[14:14]in their interior monologue and then in what they say
[14:17]and what their body language shows to the other person.
[14:20]And that's why it's good.
[14:22]So what was the impact on your life
[14:26]on being a Reese's book club pick?
[14:27]Did that have like, did that change things?
[14:29]Like, what did it feel like when you found out?
[14:31]Tell me about that experience.
[14:32]That was really exciting.
[14:34]My editor called Me, I Freaked Out.
[14:35]We all freaked out.
[14:37]And, you know, it was really heartwarming.
[14:40]You just see all of the people who really came to embrace my book
[14:44]because of the Reese's pick.
[14:46]And to really join a community, like, you know,
[14:48]all of the her picks have been women.
[14:51]And the Reese's book club is really supportive
[14:54]of its authors.
[14:55]And it's really lovely to see.
[14:56]I've met a number of the other authors.
[14:58]And they're all so great.
[14:59]And I love so many of the books.
[15:01]And so it's really been an honor
[15:03]to be kind of in that little sorority.
[15:06]And to get to know so many of the other women
[15:08]who have written these books.
[15:10]It's excellent.
[15:10]Do you ever feel like there's more pressure now?
[15:12]Like, it's harder to sit down and write.
[15:13]Like, what if I can't do it again?
[15:15]Or does it just bolster you with more confidence?
[15:17]You know, it's a little combination of the two.
[15:19]Obviously, there were times when I feel confident.
[15:22]And then times when I feel like I can never do this again.
[15:25]For me, I started writing to see if I could find something
[15:28]that I enjoyed doing.
[15:30]Because I wanted some sort of creative outlet.
[15:33]I didn't know if I was like writing.
[15:35]I started it.
[15:36]I loved it.
[15:37]And so for me, I always just sort of try to come back
[15:40]to that love of writing.
[15:41]And even when I'm feeling stressed or anxious or unsure
[15:45]about my writing, I just want to find some joy there.
[15:48]And so that's the thing that always just keeps
[15:50]bolstering me and bringing me back.
[15:52]And so what do you work on now?
[15:54]Like, were you able to be productive during the quarantine
[15:56]time or are you?
[15:58]I mean, it is a really hard time to be creative and to be
[16:00]a writer.
[16:01]I think what I have tried to remind myself during this time
[16:04]is that writing is a practice.
[16:06]And I have to just keep doing it in order to keep myself
[16:09]as a writer, to keep myself remembering how to do it.
[16:12]And so I am working on things, but I'm just
[16:16]trying to enjoy the process of writing.
[16:19]And I'll worry about if it's going to be a book
[16:21]a little bit later.
[16:23]Love it.
[16:24]Has the quarantine affected your baking?
[16:25]I feel like you referenced that you bake a lot too.
[16:27]And I've been making so much.
[16:30]I've been making it done.
[16:31]You have any secret, any secret tips you can share?
[16:34]For me, I think the most important thing in baking,
[16:37]one of the things that I've really learned
[16:39]is that you have to take your time with it.
[16:41]Like, be patient, try not to bake something, especially
[16:44]not something new in a rush.
[16:46]Because then you'll realize that there's
[16:48]a step that you missed, that you should
[16:50]sort of like refrigerate something for four hours
[16:52]that you didn't know, or you'll misread something
[16:55]in the recipe or something like that.
[16:56]And so I try to just take a lot of time
[16:59]and think of it as kind of a meditative process
[17:02]and have fun with it.
[17:03]And so the times when I have been most successful in baking
[17:07]are when I have tried to not rush myself
[17:11]to just chill out and relax and do this for fun.
[17:14]And then it is fun in the midterm halfway.
[17:16]It's also a good metaphor for writing,
[17:18]or making it the same, same kind of thing.
[17:20]I feel like I'm so impatient when I bake
[17:22]that I find myself microwaving butter to soften it,
[17:25]which just ruins the whole project.
[17:27]So it's like, why do I even bother?
[17:30]If you can't take the time to put the butter out
[17:32]in the morning and the eggs, forget it, just forget it.
[17:36]Do you have any advice to aspiring authors?
[17:38]My biggest piece of advice is just to read a ton,
[17:41]read lots of different genres.
[17:43]And then if there's a book that you really like,
[17:46]reread it, figure out what it was that drew you to that book,
[17:49]why did you love it so much?
[17:51]Do they do the dialogue really well?
[17:52]What was it about that, that worked for you
[17:55]and take notes on that?
[17:56]But just keep reading because everything builds up
[18:00]in your mind and helps you remember
[18:02]and helps you learn how to tell a story.
[18:05]I think that's huge, you know?
[18:06]There's lots of great writing books that I've read,
[18:08]but I've learned the most just from reading so many books.
[18:12]What are some of your favorites?
[18:14]Do you have a genre you like the most?
[18:15]Is it your genre?
[18:16]I love romance.
[18:17]I've read a ton of romance that I love.
[18:18]I also love young at all.
[18:20]I love middle grade books, literary fiction, mysteries.
[18:24]Like I read a lot of different kinds of stuff.
[18:26]I actually tend to read a lot of non-fiction
[18:28]when I'm in like deep into writing
[18:32]because it's little, it's always harder
[18:33]for my brain to attach to fiction
[18:36]when I'm trying to tell my own story.
[18:38]And so non-fiction is really great for me during those times.
[18:41]Has there been a time where you have just felt
[18:44]like no matter what you did,
[18:45]you just can't focus on it
[18:46]and you just had to put a project aside?
[18:49]I've never really put anything.
[18:51]Well, no, that's not true.
[18:53]One of the books that I early on tried to write,
[18:56]that one I think were on that book taught me
[18:59]that I really needed outline first
[19:01]because I just started that one kind of with an idea.
[19:04]And then I wrote the first half of that book
[19:07]three different times and then ended up putting it aside
[19:09]because I didn't really know where I was going.
[19:12]I didn't know kind of what the ending of the book would be
[19:15]or really what it was about.
[19:17]Like I knew the vague beginnings of it, but not too much.
[19:20]So I know that I need to think through a book now
[19:24]before I start writing and that process
[19:27]has really helped me to even though
[19:30]I never ended up finishing that book.
[19:32]I learned a lot from working on it.
[19:34]Interesting.
[19:35]And I know one of the themes of party of two
[19:37]is about interracial dating and the effect
[19:41]not just on the couple, but on everybody else
[19:43]and how people perceive that.
[19:44]What did you learn from writing this book about that?
[19:47]You know, I mean, for writing this book,
[19:48]I just sort of learned a lot about,
[19:51]for me it was more about like the public-private nature
[19:54]of relationships and of society, right?
[19:58]Max has a very public-
[20:00]job. People are paying attention to him. Olivia doesn't like that part of dating Max. And so
[20:06]they have to learn to negotiate that. And that is a much bigger deal in their relationship
[20:11]than the interracial aspect of it. And so I really had to think about what would be the things that
[20:18]she would care about in that part of the relationship that would worry her, that would make her
[20:23]anxious, and that she would kind of see but not quite understand. So those are some of the
[20:28]the biggest things that I really thought about and learned as I worked on this book.
[20:32]So do you think you'll stay with the same type of book going for it? You have to give me a little
[20:36]more about what else is coming because now I'm going to honor you. I'm not sure, you know,
[20:39]I think right now we're all kind of figuring stuff out. And so so I guess we'll see. Awesome.
[20:45]Excellent. Well thank you so much for coming on mom's no time to read books. And thank you for your
[20:50]totally amusing entertaining fabulous story that got me through a lot of workouts which I really
[20:57]need to do. So you're like the one, you know, having, you know, keeping me going on the road there.
[21:01]So thank you. Well thank you so much for having me. This is fun. Okay. Thanks Jasmine. Thank you. Bye.
[21:08]Thanks for listening to mom's don't have time to read books. Please don't forget,
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[21:19]so much for listening. I really appreciate it. Thanks so much to page one books for sponsoring today's
[21:23]episode. I hope you'll all check out my summer beach bundle at page one books dot com. Thanks so much
[21:28]to Steve and Ryan at the texture sound for the sound editing. And thank you to morning moon
[21:33]productions for providing this fantastic intro and out trim music. Thanks for listening. You can
[21:37]always email me at zibi at zibiowans.com.