Rachel Friedman, AND THEN WE GREW UP
[0:08]Hi, I'm Zivi Owens, and you're listening to the award-winning podcast,
[0:11]Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books. Thanks so much for listening to my podcast.
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[1:02]page one book summer bundle by it is a gift housewarming. If you actually go somewhere or just give
[1:08]it to yourself, everybody needs a treat without a long spring page one books.com. Hi, happy Monday.
[1:15]Actually, I don't like when people say happy Monday. I don't know why I said that. Anyway,
[1:18]welcome back. I hope you guys had a great weekend. This is the second week of my July book last.
[1:24]So get excited. The first day is advice Monday. So it's a sorted advice all day for this
[1:32]Monday. I hope you enjoy it. And stay tuned all week. We're going to have kids books,
[1:37]be treats, self help, and more. And we're kicking it off with advice Monday. Stay tuned.
[1:43]I'm including Rachel Friedman on advice Monday because her advice is about creativity,
[1:48]but her book is also memoir as well. So anyway, that's where I put her. Rachel is the author of
[1:54]The Good Girls Guide to Getting Lost, a memoir of three continents, two friends and one unexpected
[1:59]adventure that was from 2011 and was a target breakout book and selected by Goodreads
[2:04]readers is one of the best travel books of 2011. Now she's come out with her second book,
[2:09]which is called, and then we grew up on creativity, potential, and the imperfect art of adulthood.
[2:14]I received a star review from Publishers Weekly. Her essays and articles have appeared in the best
[2:19]women's travel writing, McSweeney's book of politics and musicals, New York Times,
[2:23]creative nonfiction, and the chronicle of higher education among others.
[2:27]Graduate of the University of Pennsylvania and the creative nonfiction program at Rutgers
[2:32]Newark with her MFA. She has taught literature, journalism, and writing at Columbia University,
[2:37]New York University, and John J. College of Criminal Justice. She currently lives in Brooklyn
[2:41]with her son. How are you? Hey, good. How are you? I'm good. I'm glad we're finally connected.
[2:47]I do. I can't believe I have to follow Mary and keys, but I'm very close to something too.
[2:53]Perhaps I should have put her at the end. But whatever. No, I'm kidding.
[2:57]Well, thank you. Your book was so interesting. I didn't have a big idea of what it would be about
[3:03]other than the cover when I started it. And I did not realize you had been this like virtue or so
[3:07]viola player and that you had to give away your knockable way, that you had to pivot so early in
[3:13]life when most people are just like sort of getting upwards on the trajectory. You had already
[3:17]reached a peak and had to regroup while everyone was like, you know, at college bars,
[3:23]tell me about this whole experience and how it informed your book. Well, in many ways, I think
[3:27]I had your route because I wasn't a virtuoso. I was I was very good from a young age. I played
[3:34]first guitar in the piano and then viola and viola was the instrument that really hooked me.
[3:40]And from a young age, I became quite obsessed with becoming a professional musician. And I went
[3:45]to a very intense performing arts cam called Interlockin, which is the setting for the book because
[3:50]I reconnect with eight former campmates of mine. But yeah, so I was sort of small fish in
[3:57]the big pond growing up, you know, and I'm sure a lot of people have this experience
[4:01]maybe not with music, but with debate or with a sport, you know, where they're very, very
[4:06]very good. And to the point where you can start to think about professionalizing what you love.
[4:11]And then somewhere along the way, you hit a ceiling and you realize, okay, like I was pretty good,
[4:17]but I'm actually either not good enough to make it doing what I want to do or in order to make
[4:23]it doing what I want to do, I'm going to have to give up everything else to, you know, to such
[4:27]exclusion of the rest of my life that maybe I actually don't want the thing I thought I wanted.
[4:32]So both of those things happened to me, I think I had a talent ceiling and I hit kind of like
[4:37]an ambition ceiling with music. So like I saw that a lot in college with the athletes who had
[4:43]had been training all their life and then suddenly that was not to be all in dull anymore,
[4:46]and it was time to be great. I think a lot of us have, you know, images of what our grown-up life
[4:51]is going to look like, even if it's not a specific kind of thing we're pursuing, you know,
[4:55]a lot of us when we grow up are facing this gap between like the fantasy of our adult life,
[5:00]and what it actually looks like, and that's really what the book is about.
[5:03]But then after this transition, you regroup and suddenly by age 26, you've published a
[5:09]book and gotten married and you're like on cloud nine, like this is amazing. And then again,
[5:16]you have to realize that like that was another peak in a valley was coming.
[5:21]Yeah, yeah, that's a really lovely way of putting it. So yeah, I had kind of this
[5:25]precocious start to writing, I guess, publishing my first book felt a little bit like a
[5:29]fluke in some ways, although I'm very proud of that book. But I was young when I published it
[5:34]for better and for worse. And I thought, okay, now I've published a book. Now I'm a writer,
[5:39]now everything just goes uphill from here. And I'm going to be able to make my full living as
[5:45]a writer. And I'm going to have, you know, famous author friends. And I'm going to get a
[5:50]port. It's like the whole fantasy of the writers. Like, you know, I realized that like with music,
[5:55]I had developed this whole, this whole ideal of what it meant to be a writer. And these very kind
[6:00]of rigid definitions of success that weren't really based on what I wanted or what was important
[6:05]to me, but what I had kind of like absorbed external voices. And so like with music, I was at this
[6:12]moment where I felt like if I didn't grapple with that artist mythology and what it meant to
[6:17]make an artistic life and what was important to me, I didn't think I was going to give operating
[6:22]because writing had already proved to be something that had endured unlike music. But I thought,
[6:28]oh, I'm going to be really like bitter. If I don't get a grip on this at some point. If I don't
[6:33]really kind of take stock of, you know, what matters to me and what, what do I really need to feel
[6:39]content as a writer and to endure? So I went to track down all these people from this camp where
[6:45]this was a time when everyone I knew, you know, at this camp had very specific ideas about who they
[6:51]wanted to be when they grew up in Interlockin, which is a camp in Michigan is just full of so
[6:56]much incredible talent. And it felt to me kind of like the last place when I had really been so
[7:03]sure of who I wanted to be and what that would look like. And I was really curious to see if other
[7:09]people had, you know, grappled with this gap and what had become of them. And this was pre Facebook.
[7:14]So, you know, you didn't have updates on everyone in the same way when I went to campus,
[7:19]pre Facebook. And even if you do, you don't really have any idea what's going on with someone
[7:24]when you see their social media posts. I love how it all came back to when you kind of
[7:29]drowning your your sorrows about taxes by going to a movie and seeing one of your fellow Interlockin
[7:35]friends having success like that. And I think like everyone can relate, although it's not like
[7:39]we don't all say it out loud, that like there's always something when you're happy for someone else,
[7:43]like, oh my gosh, how did they do that? And like, what have I done? Like, it's just like, look at
[7:48]that. Yeah, this comparison issue we all have. And so yeah, we went to camp with Ben Foster,
[7:55]who's a very well-known actor. He's not in the book, although interestingly, as I was working on this
[8:00]book, at many points, people encouraged me to try and interview him. And I always felt like,
[8:05]well, that's not the point of the book. I want to hear from people who are, you know, like,
[8:09]nothing. It's not at either end of the spectrum. Haven't completely felt like they failed at what
[8:14]they're doing, or maybe they maybe they have, or kind of middle of the road. And they're trying
[8:19]to figure out, too, how to endure. And you know, Ben Foster, you can read about him in kind of any
[8:24]magazine-y pickup, right? But that was the impetus behind the book. So I was feeling very depressed
[8:29]about my financial situation as a freelance writer. And I went to a movie and there he was,
[8:35]you know, larger than life, starring in it. So that was quite a reckoning. I'm sorry, I've had,
[8:41]I've been there. Those are not fun feelings. Oh my gosh. So what was your main takeaway? You
[8:48]went and you found out all of these people and then you end up actually dating somebody who's friends
[8:52]with one of your, like, with Adam and, like, all these fun things just start happening as you
[8:57]as you retrace your steps and everybody has different things to share. What do you think were some of
[9:02]the main findings? Yeah, it's a very interesting journey tracking down people who knew you when
[9:07]you were young. I do recommend it. But yes, it can be a winding journey follow of many surprises.
[9:13]So, you know, everyone in the book really gave me another framework from which to view the issues
[9:21]that I was kind of dealing with. You know, I mean, the book kind of breaks down the mythologies
[9:25]that I had about what it means to succeed, what it means to feel ordinary, what it means to compromise,
[9:32]what ambition looks like, what freedom looks like. You know, all these very amorphous terms,
[9:37]we have, you know, and like, we have a succession with perseverance in this country and
[9:42]sure many other countries where, you know, it's kind of like, you only fail when you quit and,
[9:47]you know, that's really not true. I mean, if you have a, you have a quitting problem, that's one thing.
[9:52]But most of us work really hard and then at some point, often at least some goal at some point
[9:57]point, we're pursuing, you know, we do hit a ceiling and we-
[10:00]have to kind of refocus our energies and that's really good for us. So I think the main takeaway
[10:05]of the book is that, you know, our lives, we have to design them. There's no like expert
[10:12]out there. There's no like internet article that is going to teach you what successes or tell
[10:17]you, you know, if you do X, Y, and Z, this will happen. Like we love formulas, we love this idea
[10:23]that you put in the work and then you reap the rewards. And, you know, I think it's really important
[10:28]dismantle the kind of cliches and mythologies and really ask yourself the hard questions about
[10:35]your fulfilling life would look like. It's awesome. By the way, you had probably my favorite expression
[10:40]I've ever heard the art internship, where you have like people that is so perfect. Because I
[10:44]sometimes I feel like my husband and I were both like very creative and whatever and like that's
[10:48]a nice way. I said, oh, we have an art internship. That's so great. So tell me about that.
[10:53]Yeah, that's not my phrase. I think that's, that's definitely, oh, well, I'm going to credit you
[10:58]anyway. Yeah, this is, you know, we have the idea of the art internship is, you know, your partner,
[11:04]the person that you end up making a life with is also an artist. And so it's just like kind of
[11:08]romantic ideal of what that looks like. And that too is kind of like a complicated reality, of course,
[11:14]but that's one of the many things I thought about my life, like I need to end up with a person
[11:20]who does X, you know, because I do why. So that's the term of an art internship. I loved it.
[11:26]I just, that was so great. And then you're watching in post article recently was great about teaching
[11:31]your son and not about, well, about evaluating the current theory that people should not allow
[11:37]their kids to quit anything, right? That we should teach all of them to persevere and like,
[11:41]really, you're not good at the piano, just keep going. And you said, you know, you also have
[11:45]to teach kids the flip side of that, which is like not every extracurricular is for everybody.
[11:51]And that you have to be ready to cope with when things don't work out, which I love to such great
[11:56]parenting advice and also just life advice. Tell me more a little more about that. Yeah, I think we're
[12:01]really focused on resilience as it relates to perseverance, but there's also resilience in terms of
[12:08]being able to be disappointed that something didn't work out, like not to follow in that disappointment,
[12:13]but to understand that there are real setbacks. And most of us, you know, the experience of not
[12:19]getting what you want is such a common human experience, but we talk, we don't talk a lot about it.
[12:25]You know, this idea of disappointment or longing or quitting in a way that is not kind of like
[12:30]rebranding it as opportunity or turning into some other narrative, but just, you know, I wanted
[12:36]this thing. I tried really hard. You know, and again, it's not about kind of wallowing in that
[12:41]disappointment, but I think giving it a little bit of space to say, you know, I didn't turn out to
[12:48]be an astronaut or whatever it is. You know, I did notice in your book and maybe I missed where
[12:53]you explained to her saying, but I feel like you talked a lot about your dad and that he was a retired
[12:57]film critic and he came up a lot and what he would think and what you would say to him. And there
[13:01]wasn't a lot of mention of your mom and I was just wondering about that. Yeah, I think my dad was
[13:05]probably just a more a stronger influence to be totally honest in terms of the way I
[13:14]thought about my grown-up life. My mom was very like practical. You know, I mean, my mom supports
[13:21]my writing and supported my music, but I think for her, she grew up poor and became a lawyer and,
[13:28]you know, really felt like her focus understandably was on financial security and financial
[13:33]security is very important. Then I talk about in the book kind of reckoning with that. And my
[13:38]dad, who is a professor and has a different background, you know, grew up in a more comfortable middle
[13:44]class background. You know, for him, the message was always do what you love. You have to be
[13:49]passionate. You know, it was like, you have to be passionate about what you do. There's no such
[13:53]thing as just a job. You know, I think he's wrong about that. Ultimately, of course, you know,
[13:57]plenty of people have work-life balance where their job is not the thing that drives them and
[14:01]they derive their fulfillment in other ways. But for me, he was just a very powerful influence,
[14:07]and I saw his life too, this life of the professor, the life of the mind, you know, he writes books,
[14:13]all of that really was influential for me as a kid. Justine. And I was wondering if you had advice
[14:18]for aspiring authors and maybe you could weave in the fact that after you sold your first book,
[14:23]your second book didn't sell and you had to regroup and find the way to back, which obviously you
[14:29]did because now we have this amazing book and we're sitting here talking. So yeah, I think it's
[14:33]important to say like you have that book nine years after the first one. You know, so that's a good
[14:38]amount of time. It took me a long time to write the second book as you get pregnant in the middle
[14:43]of the writing process, you know, which I'll slow things down a little bit. But yeah, my second book
[14:48]was, I just didn't, I couldn't figure out. I think the right framing for that second book, and
[14:54]it didn't get a contract and I was really disappointed, obviously. But you know, I think too,
[14:59]after a first book, you feel a lot of pressure to have this momentum and it's very common
[15:03]experience for the second book and that's to work out. So that's just one of the kinds of examples
[15:09]of enduring through disappointment. But I think is useful and that we should talk about more,
[15:13]you know, marrying keys had great advice for writers, which is essentially you write, you sit
[15:18]down and you do it and try to get out of your own way. I think a lot of times people
[15:23]who want to write, who aspire to write, they need permission. You know, I'm not sure who we're
[15:28]looking for permission from, but we are the ones who need to give it to ourselves. You are entitled
[15:35]to write, you are entitled to self expression, like you are entitled to that space. And so to try to
[15:40]like quiet those inner voices and you know, she was saying like that, we're all writing as
[15:45]Anne Lamont would put it in Bird by Bird, which is a brilliant book if people are looking for
[15:50]inspiration in the writing life. You know, we all write shitty for straps. Maybe some people don't,
[15:55]but we won't just consider them outliers, but most of us, the way you endure as a writer is
[16:00]through rewriting. You have to have a tolerance for repetition and for revision because what comes out
[16:05]first is messy and often incoherent and not very good. And you can't edit, I think, out that part
[16:13]of it. Like you have to go through that part of it. You know, there's a different part of your brain.
[16:17]This is like the right drunk at its sober expression, which doesn't actually drink drunk,
[16:21]but I think means writing for some people does not mean writing without kind of that inner critic,
[16:28]you know, telling you that something is no good. You just have to get it out and you have to
[16:32]you have to take time to do it. Writing is a job like anything else. You know, you put your hours,
[16:39]and I think sometimes people think, and you're going to use this thing to do that sort of
[16:42]of magical. And of course, there are magic moments, but I don't think that you have the
[16:47]space for those magic moments unless you're doing the disciplined work of carving out time regularly.
[16:53]I'm not even saying every day, but consistently to put words on a page.
[16:57]Well, thank you, Rachel. Thanks for coming on. You're so nice to connect with you.
[17:01]And hear your thoughts. And I felt like such pride for you when you are detailing your journey
[17:06]and then knowing that because I was reading the book that you eventually got to success again.
[17:10]So it was like sort of this wonderful thing that could be holding the answer to what happens
[17:16]to the main character in your hands. Anyway, I hope you enjoyed this episode of Advice Monday
[17:27]on the July book last. I know that some of these were from the quarantine and some might seem
[17:32]even old even though they've just come out, but I just had to get them out in one big sweep,
[17:36]and I hope that you've gotten some useful life tips as you've listened today.
[17:41]Thanks again for listening to my podcast. Moms don't have time to read books.
[17:45]If you liked this episode, please follow me on Instagram at zippyowans and at moms don't have
[17:51]time to read books and sign up for my mailing list at zippyowans.com so you can always hear about
[17:56]the latest things I'm up to you. Thanks a lot. Thanks so much to page one books for sponsoring
[18:00]today's episode. I hope you'll all check out my summer beach bundle at page one books.com.
[18:05]Thanks so much to Steve and Ryan at Texture Sound for the sound editing,
[18:09]and thank you to Morning Moon Productions for providing this fantastic intro and out trim music.
[18:14]Thanks for listening. You could always email me at zippyowans.com.