Amy Poeppel, MUSICAL CHAIRS
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[1:04]by it is a gift to housewarming if you actually go somewhere or just give it to yourself. Everybody
[1:09]needs a treat without a long spring. PageOneBooks.com. Welcome to day three of my second week of my
[1:16]July book blast. So I guess technically this is day eight of my July book blast. And today is
[1:23]Beach Reads Wednesday. I'd love Beach Reads. I wish I had more time to just sit on the beach and read
[1:28]as I'm sure we all do. But instead of that, I'm offering up all these amazing Beach Read
[1:33]books, which you should definitely check out this summer and beyond. Amy Popol grew up in Dallas, Texas.
[1:38]She graduated from Wellesley College and worked as an actress in the Boston area appearing in
[1:42]a corporate industrial for Polaroid, commercial for Brooks Pharmacy. Oh gosh, I remember Brooks
[1:47]Pharmacy. And a truly terrible episode of America's Most Wanted along with other TV spots in
[1:52]several places. While in Boston, she got her MA in teaching from Simmons College. She married a
[1:57]neuroscientist at NYU. And for the past 30 years, they've lived in many cities all over the world
[2:02]from San Francisco to Berlin and had three sons. Amy taught high school English in the Washington
[2:07]D suburbs and after moving to New York, worked as an assistant director of admissions at an
[2:11]independent school where she had the experience of meeting and getting to know hundreds of applicant
[2:15]families. She attended sessions at the Actor's Studio Playwrights Director's Unit and wrote
[2:20]the theatrical version of Small Admissions, which is one of her three novels, which was performed
[2:25]there as a stage reading in 2011. Her writing has appeared in The New York Times, the
[2:29]Rumpus Working Mother, points in case the Belladonna and literary mama. Her novels include
[2:35]Small Admissions, Limelight, and Musical Chairs. Welcome, Amy. Thanks so much for coming on
[2:40]Monster and have time to read books. I'm so happy to be here. Thanks for having me, Zippy.
[2:45]Congratulations on your latest novel, Musical Chairs. So exciting. Can you please tell us
[2:50]listeners what this book is about? Absolutely. So I actually just received the hardcover.
[2:57]Look at me. And they're just so pretty. That's always exciting. I mean, I have to say that's even
[3:02]even three books in. That is such a thrill when your books arrive. This is a book about a woman who
[3:07]is spending the summer at her sort of Bram Shackle Country House in Connecticut. And she's in a
[3:13]piano trio, a classical piano trio with her very best friend in the world who's a man named
[3:19]Will. And they've hired a new person to be the violinist in their trio. And all they have to do
[3:24]is survive the summer. And they're going to have a new fresh start in the fall. So Bridget goes out
[3:29]to her house in hopes of spending a very romantic, three months with this new boy for not sort of
[3:35]sort of a new boyfriend that she has, but it's getting kind of serious. And he breaks up with her
[3:40]over email. Partly on the advice of his ex-wife, who thinks that maybe they should just take things
[3:46]a little bit more slowly. So that's just kind of a disappointing way for Bridget to start her summer.
[3:51]And from there, her adult kids smooth back home, her 90-year-old father announced that she's getting
[3:56]married. And it's just a summer of everybody sort of having to rethink and reinvent themselves and
[4:02]figure out how they're going to move forward and under-change circumstances.
[4:06]I didn't really like Starling from the beginning, though, I have to say. I was kind of not upset
[4:10]when they broke up. You introduce him as like sending like a read my email right away. And I
[4:16]don't know. I just sort of, I didn't think he really cared enough when she was accidentally
[4:20]electrocuted, like right at the beginning when she first went out to her house. So I don't know.
[4:24]I feel like, you know, things happen for a reason, even in fix it. Probably most of us
[4:29]will feel like that was a good written situation. But even when you're in those situations, it's
[4:33]sort of hard to see it sometimes for yourself. I've got a lot of friends and family and
[4:39]serious relationships. And in the moment, it just seems like the worst thing that could possibly
[4:44]happen. But then you sort of rethink. And yeah, I think sometimes you come out better for it. And
[4:50]I think in British case, you're absolutely right. I agree. It doesn't make it easier for Bridget, of
[4:55]course. Yeah, she doesn't have the luxury of the distance from us reading about her.
[5:00]Or even of her character friends in the novel who can maybe see it for what it is. But anyway,
[5:04]but yes, that's one of many things. And she goes through this summer. I love, by the way, how
[5:09]you structured the book, how you had it over a course of the summer with the prelude and then
[5:13]June, July, August, and Dakota in September. Like, that's just so perfect. I love when
[5:18]there are clever structures to books that sort of echo the content. So check plus on that.
[5:24]There was one other little structural element that I don't think readers would pick up on
[5:29]necessarily, but it was just something that was important to me in my own brain to kind of
[5:34]work it out. So it's a trio. And every series starts with Bridget, you get a chapter from Bridget,
[5:41]you get a chapter from Will, and then there's the empty chair. So that third chapter is filled
[5:48]by Gavin, who is their first ever violinist, once in June, once in July, and once in August.
[5:55]But every other third chapter, you get a surprise voice. So it's just sort of, for me,
[6:04]in my head, it was kind of representing Bridget and Will as the two stable anchors in this trio,
[6:09]and that that third seat always is rotating. So I sort of wanted to mirror that in the structure
[6:16]of the book. So it's not something anyone would necessarily see when they were reading, but it
[6:19]was really helpful for me in writing it to kind of have that blank third chapter. See, I thought
[6:25]I was analyzing it and I missed it. Sorry. That overarching structure was exactly what I wanted.
[6:32]I wanted the prelude and I wanted the coda and I wanted the three months in between. And then
[6:38]as a little miniature structure, I put the every three chapters structure in on top of all of that.
[6:44]So no, you got it completely. What is the role of music in your life? You obviously know a ton
[6:50]about it. Did you research it for this book? Are you a musician? How did you learn so much about it?
[6:54]Zibi, I cannot read music. I don't understand music and I can't carry a tune to be honest.
[7:01]I'm a huge appreciator of music. And somehow I raised three children who are very musical,
[7:08]and two of them so far are sort of following a career in music. So I got a lot of help from them.
[7:14]My youngest son is a classical pianist and he's studying musicology and composition in college.
[7:20]So he helped me so much. And every time I would sort of have an idea,
[7:26]like I sort of feel like I need them to be listening to something or I need them to be rehearsing
[7:29]something, I would research, go to my son, get somebody to help me. It was a really fun
[7:35]world to dive into, but it was also nerve-wracking because I wanted to make sure that I got things
[7:40]right. In an early draft, I think this happens to a lot of writers. In an early draft, I sort of went
[7:46]too far and it was just so infused with music that my publisher, my editor said, that's great.
[7:54]Now let's just pull back a little bit for readers who are not classically trained musicians like
[8:01]me. So I feel like there's enough of it in there now to sort of really put you in that world.
[8:06]But if you don't know anything about classical music, that is no hindrance to understanding or
[8:11]reading the book. I would say though, that there are some nice references to pieces of music that
[8:17]if you have your Spotify nearby while you're reading, it might be fun to plug in some of those
[8:23]titles and composers and take a listen because the stuff that I chose to put in there, the pieces
[8:28]that I chose were selected carefully and the beautiful Spotify now has playlists. You can make
[8:34]so you can always just make a playlist. I know you actually have a really good idea. I think I'm
[8:40]going to sit down and go back through the book and find every piece of music that I referred to
[8:45]and make a playlist. Yeah, thank you. I love how you had to interview essentially your own
[8:52]children to get the research done for this book. I mean, it's actually a genius way to bond with
[8:57]your kids. I'm writing a book about something that I know interests you more than anything. So
[9:02]you're the one who's going to have to help me. That must have made them feel so great. Did it bond
[9:07]you guys in the process? I would think that it did in a way that you couldn't necessarily get
[9:12]it in another way. Oh, absolutely. I mean, it was really amazing that you spend so much of your life
[9:19]teaching your children how to do things, tie their shoes, use a spoon, any of all of the things that
[9:26]we manners, all the things that we try to teach our kids. But it is so much fun. The first time
[9:31]this happened to me was I lived in Berlin for two years and when we got there, my kids didn't
[9:35]speak German at all and I spoke really terrible German. Really, really. I can massacre that language
[9:41]like nobody. But when we got there knowing that my kids, they went into school, they went into
[9:46]German speaking school and they really struggled and I was helping and teaching and helping and
[9:51]teaching and helping with their homework. And then all of a sudden that flipped on its head
[9:55]and their German was so much better than mine. And I was constantly asked.
[10:00]them for help and we would go into a store and I would say could you please
[10:04]can you help me ask the saleswoman this question and they were suddenly the
[10:08]experts and able to help me and now I just remember thinking that's what you
[10:12]want as a mom you want to see your kids get even better like way better than
[10:16]you or the things that they are you know that they excel at and have interest in
[10:20]so that was a lot of fun especially with my youngest Luke because he's the one
[10:25]who's really the most classically trained and saying to him like you are
[10:29]the expert here and I am not and I need your help and he was very generous
[10:34]with his time really slow things down for me he would read my draft and he
[10:39]would explain like that is not what a rehearsal process is like that is not
[10:42]the way a musician would ask that question he would even say meet that
[10:46]sounds like a non-musician trying to talk about music and I would be like help
[10:50]me help me you know help me get that so that it sounds right especially in
[10:54]dialogue is dialogue is really important to me so I finally asked my kids
[10:59]further help again and we just filmed a book trailer because I'm in Connecticut
[11:03]right now in a house that is somewhat dilapidated we'll say and I need help it
[11:09]was an all hands on deck kind of project so the whole family came together and
[11:14]we filmed this book trailer it should be out I hope in about a week that's
[11:18]exciting the last hangout the last hold of getting this book trailer out in
[11:22]the world is the music it's always because there's certain places where it
[11:26]needs to get louder and it needs to get softer and my oldest child is a
[11:29]sound engineer so he's 26 and works in music studios all over New York City and
[11:36]he's got the file right now and he's doing all of the adjustments to make sure
[11:39]that the sound is right and that the music that's in the background is right so
[11:42]I am so lucky I had these experts right in my house totally you should have that
[11:47]now you should you could easily start a podcast you know you could just have your
[11:50]son help you with the intro out show me a sec I mean you could do like free
[11:53]production maybe I'll call them really good he hearing in the background
[12:01]music in the book trailer he kept saying do you hear that hum I was like I'm
[12:05]like you're a hum and he's like yes there's just listen I would listen it's my
[12:08]old lady years I was like I don't hear a hum and he's like I have to take that out
[12:12]that sounds terrible so I'm happy to have him oh that's awesome I love this part in
[12:18]the book speaking of adult children Bridget is the protagonist of this book you
[12:22]said Bridget did not want to get high with her children she never had never
[12:25]would never the less her feelings were hurt that they hadn't even invited her
[12:29]to join them and then they asked them videos and you said they asked when they
[12:33]asked Jackie Bridget would have said no anyway but they could have at least
[12:37]included her just to be nice when they came back to the porch talking loudly
[12:40]and laughing uncontrollably she left them out there and went into the kitchen
[12:44]where all three dogs who were soggy from having waited into the bunch twice were
[12:47]under foot and pacing in search of dropped food she'd lost control of the
[12:51]evening has that ever happened that's just a funny like I had I mean my kids are
[12:57]that oh so I haven't thought about what happens when your kids start doing
[13:01]things like that or that you would feel left out or anything like that tell
[13:04]me about that scene well and I think there are times when your kids are
[13:08]really little when you think that their things it could never happen or
[13:11]would never happen well now I so speaking of life imitating art I came out
[13:17]here and of course when quarantine hit all three of my adult children moved
[13:22]back home and this was long after I had written the book the book was submitted
[13:26]ages ago but here I am for three months now I had all three of my kids 20 23 and
[13:32]26 so the twins in the book are 26 and they've all moved back home and it's
[13:39]just such a funny on two levels it's funny to me because one it's just a
[13:44]strange thing that I never thought would happen again I just didn't think I
[13:47]would ever have a situation where there would be this extended period of time
[13:51]where my kids would be living here and they both regress sometimes to more
[13:56]child or sort of like what life was like when they were younger and then at
[14:00]other times they're so grown up and so mature and I don't have to take care of
[14:04]them at all so that's just been funny and then the fact that it's exactly the
[14:09]situation that happened in the book so it's just been it's been really funny
[14:13]do my kids engage in behaviors that I sometimes don't approve of yes they do
[14:18]they probably wouldn't invite me I'm just way too anxious a person for that
[14:24]to be my drug of choice so yes these things these things happen these things
[14:29]definitely happen I wrote a piece that's on a comedy site called the
[14:33]Belladonna which is hilarious if nobody's ever looked at it the Belladonna is
[14:36]really a great four-women humor site online and I wrote a piece I can't
[14:43]remember what the number was but it was like you know you're growing child it
[14:46]was sort of like what to expect when you're expecting but it was like the
[14:49]219th trimester and beyond so it was just sort of a humor piece about sort of
[14:55]what to expect when your kids are like 18 and up and I hadn't seen in there
[15:00]where you know your little tyke might have tender date sleepovers like what do
[15:07]you do when you walk in and there's a man in boxers in your kitchen making
[15:12]pancakes
[15:14]and I just for fun and then I don't know somehow being here with these three
[15:20]very grown boys slash men has been it's been really enlightening
[15:25]so yeah you have another character in the book and I just wanted to read this
[15:33]quote you said one of Isabel's biggest flaws she'd be willing to admit was
[15:37]that she was convinced she could straighten out everyone else's life while
[15:40]her own was to the objective observer a shit show so that just spoke to me because
[15:45]I don't know I can so relate to always wanting to like have the answer went
[15:50]like I don't necessarily have the answer myself so is that something that you
[15:53]tend to do as well or was this just you've seen this so many times from other
[15:57]people I think we've all done that I mean other people's problems it's so
[16:01]you're you're you have some distance and that distance gives you clarity and it
[16:06]just can sometimes be so easy to look at somebody else's problems and just be
[16:11]like I always joke my husband because he sometimes says well you know what you
[16:14]should do and I said you should have a podcast called you know what you should
[16:18]do and I think we all could because I think we all feel like we have this sense
[16:26]of I know what you should do but when it comes to your own situation it's just
[16:30]always so much more complicated to look at somebody else's to look at your
[16:36]own problems and sort of sort through what to do that's why we have friends
[16:39]that right that's why we run our problems past other people because they can
[16:43]so often give us a little bit of insight that we somehow miss ourselves because
[16:48]we're too close to the problem it's the same with writing the reason that you
[16:51]get beta readers and people because you get so close to your own material and
[16:55]your own circumstances and your own situation and issues that you just can't
[16:59]see what's really happening anymore so you get it to somebody else let them take
[17:04]a look at it and then they say you know what you should do I say that all the
[17:08]time by the way I say that in like I don't know probably half the podcast like
[17:12]this is a great idea you should do that like the playlist I just said that it's
[17:16]like so obnoxious of me really I mean I don't know what I should do so but it's
[17:21]the same thing so we all appreciate it because I especially when it's friends
[17:26]and experts and people who really know what they're talking about I mean who
[17:29]doesn't want to hear sort of a fresh perspective on your own situation I think
[17:33]helpful sometimes when I have like a problem I like I usually write when I'm
[17:37]really upset about something not for anybody just like to sort out my own
[17:40]feelings and I often will say like pretend that this is a friend's problem like
[17:44]what would you say to the friend and I'm so much more lenient on my friends
[17:48]and on myself right and I can see it but when it's me it's so different so
[17:53]we're so much harder on ourselves I mean I think that's absolutely true and I
[17:59]actually think you know what you should do would be the great a great title for
[18:03]a podcast I think it would be so perfect and in Isabel's case she has that
[18:07]sense that she always knows what somebody else should do but her life really
[18:11]when you when you laid out on paper at that stage of the book it does not look
[18:16]great I mean she is really in turmoil and you do find out toward the end of the
[18:21]book sort of what was the origin of all of this I also want to just sort of
[18:25]tap into a little bit of humor for moms when our older kids get really proud
[18:30]of ourselves for something that they've done that they think is very empowering
[18:34]and very wonderful and we look at it as the mom and we're sort of like are
[18:38]sure that was the right thing to you or positive that was and in this case and
[18:43]this isn't a spoiler because it happens quite early on since Isabel has quit a
[18:48]job that was a very good job and you know how we all feel about good jobs
[18:53]especially these days and she just felt she wasn't quite living her best life
[18:57]and she just quit burns bridges just walks out and then says to her mother I'm
[19:04]so proud of myself right now and you don't want to say to your kid well are you
[19:07]sure you should be proud because we're trying to do confidence but I think we
[19:12]may have taken that to such a big degree that we somehow have told our kids that
[19:16]they should be proud of almost any step that they take and that can be
[19:20]trouble that can be troubling but I do think and even in Isabel's case I think
[19:24]by the time you get to the end of the book you feel she's probably done the
[19:27]right thing because life is short and we have to put ourselves in if we can
[19:32]and this is not always the case but if we can you know we don't always ask our
[19:37]kids to think what do you want to wear to work every day do you want to be sort
[19:41]of suited up when you go to work or do you want to have a more casual lifestyle
[19:45]and this is a ridiculous conversation to be having this day and age where jobs are
[19:48]just so hard to come by but when I was you know writing the draft of this book
[19:53]we were in a slightly different era and I felt like from
[19:56]Bridget she could look at that and think you just walked out of it
[20:00]good job where you're thinking and Isabelle would think of something else will come along.
[20:04]That's a very privileged. And Jackie says that it's a, that's a, that they are very privileged
[20:11]kids and that that seeps out of lots of conversation. And she sees it. So.
[20:18]So tell me a little more about your writing process. How long did it take to write musical
[20:22]chairs? Like, where did you write it? Did you write it in the house that you're in now? I know
[20:25]we're on Skype, but in this kind of a Connecticut and need to fix things up, although it looks
[20:29]perfectly beautiful to me from what I can see. Oh, this is a well curated background.
[20:34]Oh, you'd be like, oh, I did write a lot of the book here. I'm actually just starting
[20:42]Susie Schnell's book. We came here to shine. And I was just listening to her speak about her writing
[20:48]process. And I know we're not comparing ourselves, but it really makes me want to be Susie Schnell.
[20:56]Oh, and Fiona Davis, who write such beautiful historical fiction, both of them.
[21:00]They were both on my podcast too. So we can listen.
[21:04]So for anyone who doesn't know, they are both planners. They plan, plan, plan. It's not shocking to
[21:11]people who know me and my personality that I am not a planner. I am not a planner. I go into these
[21:18]books with situations in my head and people in my head. And then it takes me a really long time
[21:25]to figure out who these people are and therefore how. And I know they say, well, we start with
[21:29]drafts and then we throw them out and have to rewrite them as we get to know our characters.
[21:32]That's of course true. But I do wish I could be a little bit more like them and sort of
[21:37]map things out a bit more from the get go. I did not do that with musical chairs at all.
[21:42]I threw out about 50,000 words of musical chairs in the process of writing it. That's
[21:48]for people who don't know easily half a book. And that was actually in one of the major rounds.
[21:53]So it was probably more like 75,000 words. If you look at the entire course of writing the book,
[21:58]I just think that's really inefficient. I think that writing those scenes that I throw out maybe
[22:03]teaches me something about writing. So maybe it's not a waste of my time. But it is inefficient.
[22:08]So I'm working on a fourth book right now. And I have tried to do my version of an outline.
[22:15]It's just rough. But I've sort of given myself a little bit of a shape that I'm trying to follow.
[22:21]So we will talk again in a year. Let you know if it worked for me because I don't know how
[22:26]much of this is personality driven. How much of this is work just your work style, your writing
[22:33]style. I just know that for me with my first three books, I really figured it all out as I went
[22:39]along. And that's joyful sometimes. It's so much fun sometimes. It's also painful and perhaps
[22:48]really inefficient at times. So, you know, they're good sides and bad sides. But I am going to give
[22:57]the Fiona Davis, Jamie, Brenner, Susie, Schnoll outline the old college try this time around. I'm
[23:04]just going to see what happens. And we'll and I'll let you know. Yeah, K-Fest posted.
[23:09]We've thrown it out in half a book again. I would like to do that. I just don't know if it's
[23:13]possible for me. Well, it's an it's an art, not a science. So you'll just play with it.
[23:21]Experiment. Nothing wrong with. I mean, in fact, it's a great thing to listen to other writers
[23:27]hear how they do things. See if you can't pick up on some of their skills and have it and incorporate
[23:35]them into your own process. And I'm definitely up for trying to do that. And if anyone's too
[23:41]rigid and too structured, I would say try being a fly by to see your pants are for a little while
[23:46]because it can be really fun. I think it was Susie who also said that she writes out sort of like
[23:51]diary entry type things from her character's point point of view. I sort of feel that I do that
[23:58]as well. I like to really understand who that person is before I just start. So I think I do a
[24:03]lot more work on the character side and less work on the plot side. And that is fun, but it can
[24:08]get me into trouble. That was all great advice. Do you have any advice to aspiring authors in
[24:14]addition to all of that good stuff? I would say just keep at it. Keep trying. Don't be afraid
[24:21]to write something terrible and throw it out. I very much believe in the An Lamont
[24:26]advice of just write a terrible first draft. You can't edit until you have something on the page
[24:33]and don't be afraid. Like no one's going to see it. Don't worry about it. Just write a first chapter.
[24:38]Let it be awful. It might end up being the 10th chapter. It might end up being in the trash bin.
[24:43]You don't know. But you can't move to the next step until you get that lousy first draft
[24:51]written and finished. And then the second thing, the other piece of advice that I would give,
[24:56]it's sort of two things combined. Develop a fixed skin or a little bit of a wall between you and
[25:02]the criticism because there's going to be a lot of it. There's going to be a lot of rejection.
[25:07]Figure out who do you trust? Who's eyes and sensibility? Do you really trust and put yourself
[25:16]in that person's hands? Whether it's a beta reader, I would not say a family member or best friend,
[25:20]they're going to be too nice to you. Find somebody who's willing to be mean to you and let them read it
[25:26]and don't take it personally and don't say they just don't understand what I was trying to do.
[25:31]They don't understand what you were trying to do. There's a problem. So just learn to find people
[25:38]whose sensibility and aesthetic you trust and then take the criticism. I go to bed sometimes for
[25:45]a day after I get a bad editorial letter. You just have to kind of let it wash over you and just
[25:51]accept it and then you just get back in the chair and you, I mean, resilience is key. Get back in
[25:57]the chair, keep going. So yeah, resilience and get that first draft on paper. Just get it down
[26:05]and you're laptop in whatever. Just get it written. Love it. Thank you. Amy, thanks so much for
[26:11]sharing your experience and your advice and your stories and the music and all the rest. So
[26:16]thanks for coming on. Thank you for having me and keep reading and doing what you do, Zibi. You're
[26:22]just amazing and thank you for having me on. Thank you. Bye Amy. Have a great day. I need to. Bye.
[26:28]I hope you've enjoyed this. Be treat on Be Treats Wednesday, part of my July book blast.
[26:35]Thanks again for listening to my podcast. Moms don't have time to read books. If you liked this
[26:40]episode, please follow me on Instagram at zibi Owens and at Moms don't have time to read books
[26:46]and sign up for my mailing list at zibi Owens.com so you can always hear about the latest things
[26:51]I'm up to. Thanks a lot. Thanks so much to page one books for sponsoring today's episode. I hope
[26:56]you'll all check out my summer beach bundle at page one books.com. Thanks so much to Steve and Ryan
[27:01]at Texture Sound for the sound editing and thank you to Morning Moon Productions for providing
[27:06]this fantastic intro and out trim music. Thanks for listening. You could always email me at
[27:10]zibi at zibi Owens.com.