Aminatou Sow & Ann Friedman, BIG FRIENDSHIP
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[1:15]day of my 10 days of a July book blast. I hope that you've enjoyed all these 10 days, and if you
[1:21]miss them, go back and listen to memoir Mondays and debut Tuesdays and body blast and all the rest
[1:27]of the episodes that hopefully will have made to your July just a little bit better.
[1:31]Today's our last day, and it's a self-help inspiration empowerment Friday. So let's just call it
[1:37]empowerment Friday. I hope that you feel encouraged, inspired, and just awesome after listening
[1:43]to these episodes today. I mean, not to tell, so, and Anne Friedman are co-authors of the big
[1:48]friendship, how we keep each other close. I mean, not to is a writer, interviewer, and cultural
[1:53]commentary. She's a frequent public speaker who talks in interviews linked to candid conversations
[1:58]about ambition, money, and power. I mean, not to lives in Brooklyn, and Friedman is a journalist,
[2:03]essayist, and media entrepreneur. She's a contributing editor to the gentle women. Every Friday,
[2:08]she sends a popular email newsletter, and lives in Los Angeles. They also co-host an insanely
[2:15]popular podcast called Call Your Girl Front. Welcome, and I mean, not to welcome to
[2:21]Mom's Turn Out Time to Read books. I'm so delighted to have you on today to talk about friendship.
[2:25]Thank you so much for having us. It's my pleasure. So can you please tell listeners what your
[2:30]book is about and what inspired you to write it? We are the authors of big friendship, how we keep
[2:36]each other close, which is a memoir of our decade-long friendship with each other. And so we write
[2:43]about art story, and there are also interviews with experts and other people who are friends and
[2:48]other people who are our friends. And we really just wanted to take a look together at the
[2:55]relationship that we have with each other, because we think that a lot of people have the kind of
[2:58]friendship that we have, which is someone who, you know, the best label to call it really is your
[3:04]best friend. But as we know, that can mean so many, many, many, many different things. And we
[3:09]really wanted to talk about the importance of those kinds of really long-lasting, impactful
[3:15]friendships. Yeah, and we also wanted to put some language to many of the experiences that we had
[3:20]within our friendship. You know, the fact that, right, this term best friend is one of the only
[3:26]words that we have for a super intimate friendship where someone might be as much a part of your
[3:32]life or more important to you than blood relatives or has no longer than a spouse. We really
[3:39]wanted to elevate this relationship to the place that it belongs in the sense of, you know,
[3:45]not all friendships are the same. But if you have one like this, here's some language that might
[3:50]apply to the situations that arise within it. And so our book is really about what's great about
[3:56]that, you know, why it feels so incredible to be intimately known in this way by someone who is a
[4:01]friend. And also many of the difficulties that arise with that, you know, like any intimate relationship,
[4:06]why it can be hard to really stay close to each other for the long term through a lot of life
[4:11]changes. I was actually surprised by the opening of your book in that the two of you were a way
[4:16]to spot and had come to a point where things were not perfect between the two of you. I thought
[4:21]that when I opened the book it would be a whole thing about the perfection of your friendship. And
[4:25]yet you started it so openly and honestly that like, you know what, things we had been collaborating
[4:29]for a while. And it wasn't always perfect. And you go to even host a podcast together where you
[4:34]talk about everything and you come off as, you know, perfect friends. And the pressure even behind
[4:39]that kind of performance level of your friendship. So tell me a little about the dips and how you
[4:44]got back to to closeness when you had that period to kind of a rough patch. Yeah, you know, I think
[4:50]that what's interesting about our friendship or where they're all say this. I think that a thing
[4:56]that is true about our friendship that is not true of every friendship is that we are two people
[5:00]who host a podcast together. And so it just means that a lot more people that don't know us can make
[5:06]assumptions about what our friendship really is. Right. And so I think that that's just something
[5:11]to like get out of the gate. And it doesn't mean that the way that we do our show, I think that
[5:15]if you're actually listening really closely, you can tell is that we were just like two professionals
[5:19]who are good at editing each other. Like it's not a show about like, like, I'm going to air
[5:23]out of my grievances or I'm mad about this thing that you did in private. So I'm going to talk about
[5:27]it on the show. That's just not how people who our professionals are. But I think that the idea
[5:32]that there is a kind of relationship that is perfect, whether it's a friendship or a marriage or
[5:36]whatever is, you know, that's just not true. Everyone knows that that is not true. And I think that
[5:41]what we were really trying to get to is, you know, how do we explain that like all relationships,
[5:48]our friendship is not perfect. And how do we make time to work on it, not on the podcast? Because
[5:53]we actually do not, I'm like, I'm not working anything out. That's personal on that podcast.
[5:57]I don't think that that's the point of it. But, you know, I think that just like all relationships
[6:02]we have had are highs and are lows. And the thing that Anne said earlier about finding the
[6:07]vocabulary for again is because in other kinds of relationship, there is really easy shorthand and
[6:12]really easy understanding of, oh, like, you know, if you were married to someone or you're dating
[6:16]them and you say, oh, we're growing apart. Everyone knows exactly what that means. But if you say
[6:20]that about your friend, what does that mean? You know, like, can you grow up out from your friend?
[6:24]Can you feel, you know, what are ways that you can try to save a relationship that you have with
[6:29]a friend? Is it okay to go to therapy? Or is that sound something like is completely extravagant?
[6:34]And so I think that we were just trying to have out loud a conversation that the both of us
[6:40]have been having in private for a really long time because by talking about kind of how our friendship
[6:45]works, we are just trying to encourage other people to tell us how they're doing a friendship,
[6:49]right? And I think that in, I think we say this very clearly in the book, like we're not
[6:54]experts at all. If we were, like, I don't think there's any such thing as an expert in friendships,
[6:59]but we are two people who just really like each other and want to stay friends for a long time.
[7:03]And the only way to do that is to be really honest about the fact that it's hard sometimes.
[7:08]Especially as long distance friends, which you two are as well. I mean, now I feel like with Zoom
[7:13]and all the rest, there's somehow more incentive to connect with friends from far away. But I feel
[7:17]like you two have been working on this for years now with the podcast and have really sort of
[7:22]put your stake in the ground as like not experts for say, of course, but just that you can do it
[7:27]that there's hope for people who miss their friends who are far away.
[7:30]Yeah, I think that, you know, we have long had the belief that it requires a different kind
[7:38]of prioritization if your friendship is not in person. And often that's during the transition
[7:44]period, right? It's not so much once you're used to being far apart because by this point,
[7:49]we are pretty comfortable long distance friends. You know, we know more or less like the ways we
[7:55]like to be checked in on and we know like how to kind of prioritize each other and let each other
[8:00]know that we're important even though we're not seeing each other every day. But those are things
[8:04]that aren't necessarily obvious if you've spent most of your friendship in the same place or in
[8:10]one context. And, you know, we've done a lot of thinking about this as it relates to the global
[8:17]pandemic that we're all in right now. We're in even friends who are in the same city are essentially
[8:23]long distance friends, you know. And, you know, really that challenge of how do you transition a
[8:28]friendship where, you know, maybe your routine in the past was that you always went to the same
[8:34]like exercise class together every week or you always like met up with each other after work or
[8:40]whatever it was. Once that changes, you kind of have to say like, oh, what actually is the way
[8:45]we check in with each other now. And that is very similar to one person moving away.
[8:50]And having to navigate that challenge is really laying some groundwork for other changes that you
[8:56]might have to navigate in a friendship, right? So like other big life shifts that might prevent you
[9:01]from keeping with an old routine. And so I think, you know, we've discussed it as really, you know,
[9:06]not to say that like there's anything good about again, a terrible global pandemic. But it
[9:12]really is a skill set that if you want your friendship to survive, you have to figure out how to
[9:16]hone together. So true. You know, one of the parts of your friendship and the book that I found
[9:21]really interesting was when I mean, not too good sick and was her diagnosis was unclear at the
[9:27]beginning. And I know, I mean, not to you. And the book we're saying you were pretty private about
[9:31]it. And Ann, you kept trying to help and see what you could do. And was this really the end
[9:36]diagnosis and what could happen? And tell me a little more about how the two of you sort of traverse
[9:40]that challenging time together. And and also, you know, what do you do when you're a friend,
[9:45]when you worry about a friend and their health and yet you're not right there and you can't help,
[9:49]like what can you do? What's the best thing you can do for your friends?
[9:54]It's a big one. Sorry. I know. Sorry about that. You can take that one apart. But one
[10:00]Just did it at a time.
[10:01]Yeah, I guess.
[10:02]I think you're talking about a part of the book
[10:04]where we talk about this concept called stretching
[10:07]that is really, how do you just like keep up emotionally,
[10:12]physically, whatever with people that are in your life
[10:14]when two of you are just very different, right?
[10:16]And sometimes you have to stretch for very tiny reasons
[10:20]like your friend likes a kind of music
[10:22]that you don't like and it means that every time
[10:23]in the card you're gonna play it
[10:24]and you just have to learn how to live with it.
[10:26]And sometimes the stretch is something bigger
[10:28]like your friend is, you know,
[10:30]they're moving across the country.
[10:32]How are you gonna stretch to be there for them?
[10:34]And so one of the examples of stretching
[10:37]that we have both had to do is that I experience chronic illness.
[10:41]And it means different things for the person
[10:44]who is sick than it does for the person who, you know,
[10:46]is the friend, but I think that it's fair to say
[10:49]that it is challenging for both people in a way
[10:52]that unless you are open and kind of generous
[10:55]with each other, it just can become a real problem
[10:57]in any kind of relationship.
[10:59]And so, you know, on my side, it was a real stretch to say,
[11:04]I don't actually know what is wrong with me.
[11:06]I'm working with my doctor to figure that out.
[11:08]The diagnosis is not something that is neat and easy,
[11:12]but my life is very different in the sense that I can't do
[11:16]all the things that I used to do.
[11:17]Like I'm gonna have to skip your wedding
[11:19]or I'm gonna have to skip a trip that we had planned taking
[11:22]or, you know, or just like I'm just too tired
[11:24]to get on the phone to talk to anyone
[11:26]and on top of that, just being really private
[11:28]and not wanting to have every single detail
[11:31]of my medical life just up for, you know,
[11:33]up for discussion all the time, you know?
[11:36]And at the same time, like I had to stretch in that,
[11:39]it means that I had to ask my friends and my community
[11:41]for more help, right?
[11:43]Because I just can't take care of myself in the ways
[11:45]that I needed to do.
[11:47]And so this was a time in our life
[11:48]where we were both like, even though we weren't talking
[11:50]about it explicitly, we were both trying to figure out
[11:53]like how can I stay friends with someone
[11:56]when my life is very different
[11:58]or when a situation that is happening
[12:00]that has nothing to do with a personal preference is there
[12:03]and we both have to learn how to navigate it.
[12:05]Yeah, and I think that, you know,
[12:07]the flip side of that for me was feeling like,
[12:11]okay, here is a new situation that someone I love
[12:14]very much is dealing with
[12:16]or maybe some new information about an ongoing situation.
[12:19]And I am 3,000 miles away, which means I can't do
[12:24]some of my normal, like, friendly,
[12:27]I'm thinking about you activities, you know,
[12:29]like dropping off some food on the doorstep or whatever,
[12:32]you know, I'm a big food drop off person.
[12:34]That is not possible from the other side of the country.
[12:37]And, you know, we had already by this point
[12:40]in our friendship been long distance for a while.
[12:43]You know, I think we kind of had a routine
[12:45]of how do we check in with each other,
[12:47]but that is really different when, you know,
[12:50]for example, like, I mean, not too saying,
[12:52]like, she doesn't want to necessarily give a full health
[12:55]read out to all of her friends.
[12:57]Like, sometimes she just wants to catch up.
[12:59]And I respected that always, but at the same time,
[13:02]I'm like, I'm far away and I wanna know what's going on
[13:04]with you and I care about you and trying to really pull
[13:08]apart what is supportive of her
[13:11]and what is just making me feel more secure in the friendship.
[13:15]What do I need in order to feel like I'm still
[13:19]in an intimate friendship with this person?
[13:21]What does she need?
[13:22]These are the kinds of questions that we really,
[13:25]we kind of had to work through.
[13:26]And, you know, some of that is helped by knowing
[13:29]each other very well.
[13:30]We write in the book about how I know and love,
[13:33]I mean, not too.
[13:34]So I know that sometimes, you know,
[13:36]she will use humor to kind of gently deflect
[13:38]when she doesn't wanna talk about something.
[13:40]And so if I noticed her doing that
[13:42]when I asked about something specific about her health,
[13:45]I had a choice to make, which was either kind of like,
[13:48]explicitly keep poking or like kind of respect
[13:51]that she didn't wanna talk about it just then.
[13:53]And I don't know that I have any like big picture advice,
[13:57]you know, in terms of what does it look like
[13:59]to support a friend?
[14:00]Because all of this is so specific to the friendship
[14:03]that you're in and to the people who are in it.
[14:06]And yeah, it really is one reason why we wanted this language
[14:10]of the stretch to be a part of the book
[14:11]because then it's less about here is what you do,
[14:14]step one, two, three, and it's more about describing
[14:17]the kind of situation that is pretty likely
[14:20]to occur in every important friendship.
[14:22]Got it.
[14:23]And I mean, not too.
[14:24]How is your health now?
[14:25]Not to pry into your private life,
[14:26]which I know you don't like talking about,
[14:27]but I don't know.
[14:28]Having read it, I'm like concerned.
[14:29]So just wanted to make sure you were doing okay.
[14:32]Thank you so much for asking.
[14:34]I am doing great.
[14:36]Good.
[14:37]I'm glad to hear that.
[14:37]Another part of the book that I thought was pretty awesome
[14:40]was when you had come up with the idea of the shine theory
[14:44]and then somebody stole it.
[14:46]And the two of you decided to pull your resources
[14:49]and just fight it legally and that you overcame
[14:52]the people who had sort of trademarked your original idea.
[14:55]I just wanted to hear about that story
[14:58]because it sounded like there was a lot more
[15:00]than was on the page about that one.
[15:01]Well, yeah, like shine theory really began as something
[15:04]that we spoke about and practiced within our friendship.
[15:09]And it was really not something where we were like going
[15:12]to make a concerted effort to unveil it to the world
[15:15]and announce it and be like, hello, here is our idea
[15:18]about why collaboration is superior to competition
[15:22]and why we always try to prioritize long-term investment
[15:26]in people.
[15:26]Like we did not have like a press conference
[15:28]where we rolled out this idea and thought
[15:30]it was going to be a big deal.
[15:32]And so yeah, we were very much taken by surprise
[15:35]when we realized that someone who we did not know
[15:39]who we had not been in conversation with about this concept
[15:42]had purchased the URL and registered the trademark
[15:46]for shine theory without our knowing it.
[15:48]And yeah, that's sort of the backstory you're referring to,
[15:53]I think, right?
[15:54]Yes, yes, yes.
[15:55]And then we sort of represented with a choice
[15:57]about whether to just let that stand
[15:59]or whether we wanted this person who was really using it
[16:02]in more of a context of I think she was like a fitness guru
[16:06]of some kind.
[16:07]I don't know there were a lot of women's abs
[16:09]on the website that she had set up.
[16:12]We had a choice whether to kind of let her continue
[16:16]to associate this very weird interpretation
[16:20]of what it is with this concept we had originated
[16:23]or whether we wanted to fight for that trademark ourselves.
[16:27]And yeah, we chose the latter path.
[16:29]I don't know.
[16:30]Do you have any memories about this?
[16:31]I mean, I do.
[16:32]I'm trying to like, I think that's very accurate
[16:35]to what happened.
[16:36]So I know I just like always like hearing about people
[16:40]struggling and working together to solve problems
[16:42]anyway, it maybe there was not too much more to it than that,
[16:45]but I'm glad you persevered.
[16:46]So what was your process like of co-authoring this book?
[16:49]And I know you'd collaborated for years and years
[16:51]and years on your podcast,
[16:52]but perhaps a book in a different form was a new way
[16:56]of communication and how did the two of you tackle it
[16:58]and accomplish it?
[16:59]Yeah, a book is definitely, you know,
[17:01]is one of the larger projects we've done.
[17:03]I think I could say it's the biggest thing
[17:05]we have had to deliver all at once.
[17:07]And yeah, it was, you know, it was a lot of fun
[17:11]and it was also really, really, really challenging
[17:13]because, you know, on the podcast, for example,
[17:15]we are able to work remotely
[17:17]where we don't have to be in the same place to do it.
[17:20]And with so much of the writing of the book,
[17:22]we did have to make time to essentially go
[17:25]on long stretches of writing retreats with each other.
[17:28]And the process is not unlike a lot of the other things
[17:31]where we do.
[17:32]We talk it out to death until and then we go away
[17:35]in our own respective corners to actually do the work.
[17:38]And here because we wrote in a joint voice
[17:41]and meant that we had to outline it together.
[17:43]We talked about like what the stories were
[17:44]that we were trying to illustrate
[17:46]or the ideas that we were trying to bring to the forefront.
[17:48]We would go, you know, in our separate corners of the room
[17:51]and write the assigned word count
[17:53]and then come back and edit that all together.
[17:56]Got it.
[17:57]And was it something that you would want to write?
[17:59]Like, did you enjoy it?
[18:01]Or did you want to write another book together?
[18:02]Or was it one and done?
[18:03]How did you feel about it?
[18:04]I will work with Anne Friedman and all mediums
[18:07]for as long as she will want to work with me.
[18:09]I mean, the pleasure was exquisite as was the pain.
[18:12]But I also don't know that that's any different
[18:16]than what anyone would say about writing a book, right?
[18:19]I think that I am extremely grateful
[18:22]to have had this other kind of window
[18:25]into the way I mean, not to think
[18:28]and like really like works over an idea
[18:32]and also really just grateful for the opportunity
[18:34]to come to a joint understanding
[18:37]about what some things in our friendship
[18:39]have meant to each of us individually
[18:41]and also to us together because, you know,
[18:44]even if like no one really ends up reading
[18:47]or liking this book, like I feel really, really good
[18:50]about like what this process has brought to me personally
[18:54]and what, you know, what a gift it was for us
[18:57]to be able to examine our friendship in this kind of depth.
[19:00]Do you have any advice to aspiring authors
[19:02]having to survive the process?
[19:04]Write a little bit every single day.
[19:06]That's my advice.
[19:07]Bye.
[19:08]Amen.
[19:09]Okay.
[19:11]Well, great.
[19:12]Okay, well thank you guys so much for coming
[19:14]on mom's time to read books.
[19:15]You have made me, as I mentioned earlier,
[19:18]I now want to just call my best friend
[19:19]even just the thought of thinking about friends
[19:22]and today's day and age makes things
[19:24]just seem so much better even despite all the chaos
[19:27]and everything else.
[19:28]So thanks for even highlighting the importance of friendships
[19:31]and giving some tools to help navigate them
[19:35]over time and raising the origin story
[19:37]and just all the rest of it in your book.
[19:39]So thanks for sharing your story with me
[19:41]and with readers and good luck.
[19:43]Of course.
[19:44]Thank you so much for having us.
[19:45]Go call your friends, Debbie.
[19:47]I'm going to.
[19:48]I'm going to.
[19:49]My friend or name's Jen.
[19:50]Anyway, I'll call her soon.
[19:51]Bye.
[19:52]Bye.
[19:53]Bye.
[19:54]Thank you.
[19:55]So that's it.
[19:56]That's the last day of the July book blast.
[19:59]That's the last.
[20:00]of the Empowerment Friday episodes.
[20:02]Go back, listen to the last 10 days.
[20:04]There's so many amazing episodes.
[20:06]I really hope you've stuck with me and listened and sampled
[20:10]and gotten inspired to read more
[20:12]and gotten some great life tips along the way
[20:14]and above all felt connected
[20:16]through the power of storytelling.
[20:18]Thanks for listening.
[20:20]Thanks again for listening to my podcast.
[20:22]Moms don't have time to read books.
[20:23]If you liked this episode, please follow me
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[20:44]Thanks so much to Steve and Ryan at Texture Sound
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