Evy Poumpouras, BECOMING BULLETPROOF
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[1:31]Today's our last day and it's a self-help inspiration empowerment Friday. So let's just call it
[1:37]empowerment Friday. I hope that you feel encouraged and inspired and just awesome after listening
[1:43]to these episodes today. Evie Pompaurus is the author of Becoming Bulletproof. She is a former
[1:48]Secret Service agent co-host on Bravo TV series Spy Games and a national media contributor who
[1:55]covers national security law enforcement and crime. She regularly appears on the Today Show NBC
[2:00]MSNBC CNN, H-L-N-G-M-A. Evie holds an M-A in forensic psychology and an M-S in journalism from
[2:08]Columbia University. That was a lot of abbreviations. Anyway, enjoy Evie's episode.
[2:14]Welcome to mom's turn to have time to read books. Evie, I'm so excited to talk to you.
[2:18]Thank you. I'm so excited to be on. Thank you for having me.
[2:21]So Becoming Bulletproof is your latest book, your former Secret Service agent,
[2:27]you're like a total badass if there was ever a female embodiment of that word. It is you.
[2:34]Can you tell listeners please what your book is about and what inspired you to write it?
[2:39]You know, I wanted to take everything I learned and put it in the book like almost like a
[2:44]live how-to manual for people out there. And because it was a training in the experience and
[2:50]all these things that I got to do over the years and the education, everything, all of it,
[2:55]I thought how can I put this in the book to help people in their day-to-day lives? Because
[2:58]that was constantly over the years, constantly I'm always bombarded with questions. How do I manage
[3:02]this problem? How would you do this? How would you, you know, deal with that situation? And I thought,
[3:07]you know, people need to know this stuff. And the stuff that I used and I learned through work,
[3:13]I used my every day life in relationships with not just in work, but also in my personal relationships
[3:19]families with friends and business and across the board. And it really also is about becoming
[3:25]resilient. And that's why I called it becoming bulletproof because you're on a constant journey
[3:30]to become better, stronger, more capable, more formidable. And it's about having and being able to
[3:37]execute that process. So let's go to the beginning of the book because it opens with the most
[3:43]dramatic scene from 9-11 that you wrote in so well. I mean, I literally felt like I was there
[3:50]with you. I was coming out like having trouble breathing because the dust was in my mouth. I mean,
[3:56]it is a graphic and very compelling introduction, if you will, to your life and your bravery and
[4:04]all the rest. Can you just speak for a minute about that moment in your life and the importance
[4:08]of tell-to-use and send? You know, I shared that story because I don't want to share the story
[4:13]per se. I wanted to share it because like there was a meaning behind it. And it was something that
[4:18]was very an intense situation. And something that happened many years ago, some of which some
[4:23]people weren't even around for. He's been so long. But I wanted to share what I learned from that
[4:28]experience because I wanted the book and every story that I put in it to be a learning lesson for
[4:34]people because it was a learning lesson for me. And I learned in that moment where you feel that
[4:40]there is no hope that you can always find hope that you always have a choice. And so in that moment,
[4:45]I stayed with some of my colleagues. We stayed to help. We worked out of the U.S. Secret Service
[4:50]offices which were located there and ended up getting caught in the collapse of the tower.
[4:55]And even in that moment, why I thought, you know what? This is it. This is my end. I realized that I
[5:01]still had power and I had a choice. And although maybe I couldn't choose whether I died or not,
[5:06]I could choose how I would face my death. And I think we don't think about that. We think that when
[5:11]something happens to us, we think that's it. All the choices are out of my hands and there's no
[5:16]where to go from here. Everything's out of my control. And I remember that moment clearly. And I
[5:21]think if I can find hope in that moment, a choice in that moment, a power in that moment,
[5:26]then you can find hope and choice in anything and have been able to do that from that point
[5:31]forward. That no matter how difficult the situation comes and sometimes they can't feel
[5:35]so overwhelming and we think, oh my gosh, how am I going to go through this? I think of that moment.
[5:40]And all of a sudden a door opened here, a window opened there. And you realize,
[5:45]I do have a sense of control. I do have a choice. May not be the choice I want to make,
[5:50]but I have a choice to change and alter this outcome in some way.
[5:54]Well, of course, having that sense of control is really the difference between feeling depressed
[5:59]and hopeless, right? The more the locus of control lays with you, the more empowerment and hope
[6:05]and ultimately happiness that you can get out of it, right? Yeah. I mean, it's really,
[6:11]we navigate our own ship. So it's like you may end up in a storm, but you can still navigate the
[6:17]ship through that storm to some degree. You still have power. It's about finding power in those
[6:22]powerless moments. Do we surrender to it and we just let everything completely demolish us?
[6:27]Or do we say, okay, I realize this is happening. This is a difficult situation,
[6:31]but then how do I navigate it? And then how do you look at it almost as a challenge?
[6:35]You can look at something like an insurmountable or you can look at it as something like,
[6:41]well, this is a pretty cool challenge. How do I do this? And I choose the latter,
[6:46]because the first one has a negative connotation. It's negative. It's hopeless, but the latter
[6:52]says, okay, this is a challenge. And it also helps you problem solve. Even the first situation
[6:58]we get stuck, we get stuck on the problem, we repeat, we repeat, we can't move forward,
[7:04]because we can't accept it in this latter situation. You say, okay, accept the situation,
[7:09]but now I'm able to move forward. I love that. This whole notion of power is something that
[7:14]I feel like courses through your book and your talks and all the rest. One thing that I found
[7:18]really interesting that you said is the person who speaks the least has the power. Can you tell me
[7:23]more about that? Yeah, it's because I learned this when I became an interviewer. And because I
[7:28]thought that that was the truth for the longest time, I never get the conversation. I'm in control.
[7:33]And what I learned is that that is not true. The person who says the least,
[7:41]that person has the most power. Because if you and I are speaking, right, and this is a great
[7:46]example. I mean, granted, it's an interview. But you're asking me all these questions. You're
[7:49]doing most of the listening. I'm doing most of the talking. You're going to learn everything about
[7:53]me. But at the end of this conversation, I'm going to know very little about you. I'm not going
[7:58]to know that much about you, but you're going to understand me the way I think my life journey.
[8:02]And then you can come into the conversation in a more thoughtful way, because you're going to know
[8:06]what resonates with me. And what doesn't resonate with me. And that is the same in any dialogue.
[8:12]Look at it as an interview process, and especially in the beginning, or even if you're going in
[8:16]to do a pitch or a business pitch for somebody, if you can have them start the conversation in a
[8:22]meaningful way, then they can guide you and help you figure out where to go rather than being
[8:27]completely in the blind. Less talking means more power because you're gathering intelligence.
[8:34]And then when you do speak, you can speak so in a more impactful way. And I also call this
[8:39]verbal economics. We should look at our words as currency. Does that make sense? The way you're
[8:45]mindful and the way you spend your money, be mindful in the way you spend your word, because it
[8:50]can be impactful, or they can lose impact because you're just thrown them out there and not thinking
[8:54]about how you spend them. I'm afraid to say anything. But you know, we should speak, and we should
[9:04]be comfortable in speaking. But what I wanted to introduce is that having thoughtfulness, and part
[9:10]of the way we do that is slowing down, not just blurting out everything we want to say, because
[9:14]we've all been there where we say something, myself included, and then I shouldn't set that.
[9:19]Then it didn't come out right. How did that have an impact? And our words impact the way our
[9:24]relationships go, whether good or bad. And again, I learned that over trial and error, and I learned
[9:31]over the years of doing of hundreds of interviews. And that's why it's like, look, I learned from these
[9:36]mistakes. Learn from what I learned. Use the best skills that all the best communicators and
[9:43]interviewers and negotiators that I know use. So it's kind of like, you don't get to go to secret
[9:48]service training. Don't worry about it. You don't need to. Here it is. But it's for your life.
[9:53]You know, it's for like the how-to for life. I mean, who can't use that? That's
[10:00]I'd like that.
[10:01]Another point that I thought was really important
[10:03]that you said was how when communicating a position
[10:05]of authority, you should show and not tell it.
[10:08]Can you explain that one a little more too?
[10:11]Oh yeah, have we not all had that boss
[10:13]or maybe even done it ourselves?
[10:15]Like I'm the boss, you need to listen to me
[10:17]or I'm the person in charge or I'm the parent, right?
[10:21]And what we don't realize is that when we do that,
[10:24]we lose power.
[10:25]Because the minute you have to tell somebody you're in charge,
[10:28]do you think they don't know you're in charge?
[10:30]Like if you're, I'm the parent,
[10:32]that your kid's not no, you're the parent.
[10:34]And so the fact that you have to say it
[10:37]shows that you're losing power.
[10:39]And the shift is to not tell people, but to show people.
[10:41]And I learned this in the interview room
[10:43]because when I started interviewing people,
[10:45]I didn't want to be an interviewer to begin with.
[10:47]I didn't want to because I didn't think
[10:48]I'd be able to get people to open up,
[10:50]especially people who commit crimes.
[10:53]And so what I wanted to do is to impact people,
[10:58]but I knew I had to show my authority in some way.
[11:01]And one of the senior interrogators told me,
[11:03]you don't tell people you're in charge.
[11:05]You show people you're in charge.
[11:07]You show them in the way you enter the room.
[11:09]You show them in the way you carry yourself
[11:11]and the way you present yourself
[11:12]to the way you dress, to the way you conduct yourself,
[11:15]to whether you're not you show up on time
[11:17]or early or late term meeting.
[11:19]All those things show people that you're in charge.
[11:23]All those things show people that you are put together.
[11:25]And when people see that, that impacts them.
[11:28]That speaks volumes.
[11:29]Instead of you throwing out the words like,
[11:31]hey, I'm in charge, you listen to me, buddy.
[11:33]It doesn't work.
[11:34]It doesn't have that impact.
[11:36]I feel like you were watching my earlier interaction today
[11:39]with my five-year-old son.
[11:40]I was literally like, I'm the mom and you're the kid.
[11:45]And you're right, it totally didn't work.
[11:47]But the problem is at least with parenting
[11:48]and I don't want to divert it to something
[11:50]as seemingly insignificant when you're interrogating terrorists
[11:55]or whatever else.
[11:56]Anyway, but you can't really communicate power
[11:59]by dressing nicer, showing up for a meeting
[12:02]at like the TV for Paw Patrol or something like that
[12:05]when you're with your kids.
[12:05]It's much harder.
[12:06]I feel like when you're on the clock 24-7
[12:09]around these little beings to maintain that
[12:12]allure of constant authority.
[12:14]You bring up a good point, but there's also ways
[12:18]in which you can do it to in the way that you address them.
[12:21]So something simple is a very simple thing.
[12:23]When you want to convey authority,
[12:25]especially for women, drop in deep in your voice.
[12:28]So when you're talking to your kid, right,
[12:31]changing the tone of your voice and the depth of your voice,
[12:34]that in that moment when you're trying to convey something serious,
[12:38]it's going to change the way it lands on your child.
[12:41]Think about that, because you're shifting
[12:44]and they're going to hear that tone.
[12:45]They're going to hear that change
[12:46]and they're going to think she's being serious
[12:48]in this moment.
[12:50]And it's going to cause them to listen differently.
[12:52]So it's about the way we move and that being fluid
[12:57]and also bringing out the version of ourselves
[12:59]in a specific moment that we want to convey to someone.
[13:02]So you don't want to be on all the time.
[13:03]It's very exhausting.
[13:04]It's very difficult.
[13:05]But for example, in those moments,
[13:07]and I do this even with my husband,
[13:08]in those moments when I want to convey something,
[13:11]while I want to be like, okay, this isn't the nice
[13:13]every you're talking to at the moment right now.
[13:15]I need to lay down law.
[13:17]I'll sit down, I'll lock in eye contact.
[13:20]I'll change my facial features.
[13:21]I'll deepen my voice.
[13:23]And now I'm conveying authority,
[13:24]rather than telling you, hey, I'm your wife,
[13:27]you need to listen to me.
[13:29]I don't need to do that.
[13:30]And so those are really some things that we can do
[13:33]that cause people to pause and listen.
[13:35]Oh, I think I might be a little intimidated
[13:37]to be your husband.
[13:38]That's some time.
[13:39]Oh, are you going to tear again as well?
[13:41]Right?
[13:42]He does the same thing to me.
[13:43]Oh, God, well, at least it goes both ways.
[13:48]Oh, my gosh.
[13:49]What has it been like going from the seriousness
[13:52]of your profession to then like translating
[13:54]into all these different areas now?
[13:56]It's like especially Bravo's spy games,
[13:59]which by the way, my kids, that was like the coolest thing
[14:01]that you did out of like everything.
[14:03]I'm talking about that and the show
[14:06]and transitioning from everything you're doing
[14:09]to everything else you're doing.
[14:10]It's like across the board.
[14:12]It is across the board.
[14:12]It's an have to say with difficult.
[14:15]I mean, it's because even being working in government,
[14:18]it's very structured, it's very linear.
[14:19]You do A's and B's and C and things work out a certain way.
[14:23]And then also the type of personalities you deal with,
[14:25]it's very different.
[14:26]And I never had to even advocate for myself
[14:29]because I would always be advocating for someone else,
[14:32]the president, the first lady,
[14:33]or when I was working a case,
[14:35]I'm advocating justice for a victim.
[14:37]So it's very different.
[14:39]And then you transition into a world
[14:40]where it's the business of you.
[14:42]And I was, oh, I was completely lost at first
[14:44]because now I have to speak for myself.
[14:46]Something I never had to do before.
[14:49]And it's amazing how difficult it can be,
[14:52]how difficult it even was for me to,
[14:55]I don't want to see demand, but to say,
[14:56]okay, this is what I'm worth.
[14:57]This is what my value is.
[14:59]And this is how I think this should proceed.
[15:01]So I have to really transition.
[15:03]But there's also this remarkable lightness,
[15:05]like with spy games because I think when you spend your,
[15:08]your career doing things that are so heavy, so serious,
[15:11]so life or death, so to speak,
[15:14]you know, you welcome the change.
[15:15]You welcome kind of putting some lightness into life.
[15:19]And I really did enjoy spy games.
[15:21]And even, you know, with the contestants,
[15:24]I loved watching the different contestants
[15:26]go through their journeys,
[15:27]especially with ones that stayed on longer.
[15:29]It resonated with me because you see people come in one way
[15:33]and you see them change.
[15:34]So I know that we're giving it to,
[15:35]it was a competition series, a game series,
[15:37]but we were also trying to transform them as people.
[15:41]And it was remarkable when you would see
[15:43]that transformation happen.
[15:44]It's almost like like when I went through training.
[15:46]I went in one way and in the end,
[15:47]I came out a whole other person.
[15:49]What made you want to go down this path to begin with?
[15:52]I've been in the U.S. Secret Service 13 years,
[15:54]and initially, I mean, I was great.
[15:56]I love my job, but NBC, a producer,
[15:58]and a NBC kind of.
[16:00]No, I mean, no, I mean, that's interesting too.
[16:02]But how did you get into wanting to serve
[16:05]as part of the Secret Service to begin with?
[16:07]Like, how did you get to be so selfless
[16:09]that you would be willing to give up your life
[16:11]to protect other people in the name of the country
[16:14]and everything?
[16:15]What was it about you?
[16:16]How did that even start?
[16:19]I think it was a process.
[16:20]I can't say like when I was a kid,
[16:21]when I grew up, I wanted to be that.
[16:23]I mean, we were going to law enforcement.
[16:25]Police would pull me over.
[16:26]I mean, if anybody didn't like police,
[16:27]it was right here.
[16:28]This person, you know, it was such a broad.
[16:31]And but I didn't think about that.
[16:33]But I think the turning point was,
[16:34]when I was in college, I entered for Congresswoman
[16:37]and I interned with her for about two years, for free.
[16:41]and everybody thought I was all out of my mind.
[16:43]My friends were like, what are you doing?
[16:44]And I was one of the most meaningful things I ever did.
[16:47]It was Congresswoman Carolyn McCarthy.
[16:50]And I began seeing constituents,
[16:52]people in her district coming in with problems,
[16:54]writing in.
[16:55]And I learned that people come in with problems
[16:57]and they ask for your help.
[16:58]And I became one of those caseworkers
[17:00]where I would help people.
[17:02]And it was such a meaningful thing to see the impact
[17:05]you could have on someone's life.
[17:07]And some of the cases that would come in were serious.
[17:09]Some of the problems people had were serious.
[17:11]Some not so serious,
[17:12]but maybe they were not so serious for me or for you.
[17:14]For that person having a really high electric bill
[17:17]that they couldn't afford to pay, it was serious.
[17:19]And so I think that's where the idea of public service came in.
[17:23]And then also too, I did grow up in an environment
[17:25]in New York City in the 80s and 90s, so much violence.
[17:29]You know, I grew up in a low-income area.
[17:31]We lived in public housing.
[17:33]So we didn't grow up in the best of situations.
[17:35]It definitely was not the worst,
[17:36]but it wasn't the greatest.
[17:38]And so being surrounded by fear and negativity
[17:41]and also being victims of crime.
[17:43]And I remember a couple of times when we were,
[17:45]when my family would call the police
[17:47]and they wouldn't do anything.
[17:49]They wouldn't do anything.
[17:50]And I would be so angry.
[17:52]And I'd be like, who we were violated?
[17:53]Don't you guys care.
[17:54]And sometimes even the law enforcement
[17:56]that I dealt with, they were kind of nonchalant.
[17:58]Like it was no big deal to them
[17:59]because there was no big deal to them.
[18:01]But my world had been turned upside down.
[18:03]And I think all those things collectively,
[18:05]over the years, it's just a little bit
[18:08]by a little bit, kind of navigated and pointed me
[18:11]into the way of serving others.
[18:13]And that's truly like how I ended up in that past.
[18:16]And then when I began doing the work,
[18:18]I realized when you do something,
[18:20]when you help other people, it's so impactful.
[18:22]And it changes.
[18:23]It actually helps you more than it helps them.
[18:25]I've found that to be true as well.
[18:28]What do you make then of all the current uproar
[18:31]about police and the movement
[18:33]to defund the police or restructure or the whole thing?
[18:36]So we don't have to really get into it,
[18:37]but it was just curious your thoughts.
[18:39]Look, people are speaking up
[18:40]because there's a reason to speak up.
[18:43]Like it's not coming out of nowhere.
[18:45]And policing has to evolve.
[18:46]It's a very, it's a very slow system.
[18:48]It's a very big system.
[18:50]And it's reluctant to change.
[18:52]It is.
[18:53]Policing typically has been very much about
[18:56]like even with the way they recruit.
[18:57]And this is something I've been vocal about
[19:00]because we have to evolve.
[19:01]Policing has to evolve.
[19:03]It's always been focused on somebody's physical capability.
[19:06]That's always been the primary thing
[19:07]when you go through training.
[19:08]I've been through four different academies.
[19:10]Can you run?
[19:11]Can you lift?
[19:11]Can you carry someone?
[19:13]Can you fight?
[19:14]Obviously important thing that you need to be able to do
[19:17]because you are enforcing the law.
[19:20]As we know, a lot of people don't go willingly
[19:22]and it creates a problem.
[19:24]But at the same time, people are demanding
[19:26]a more fair system, a more unbiased system,
[19:29]a more educated system, a system
[19:30]in where people are communicating.
[19:33]And so you have to look at how you hire police.
[19:34]So if you're hiring officers
[19:36]and plenty of police departments do this
[19:38]with somebody who just has a college degree
[19:39]and maybe a year of work experience,
[19:41]think about that for a moment.
[19:43]Think about how that's a problem
[19:44]that you're going to give somebody like that.
[19:46]Next to nothing life experience with just a high school degree
[19:49]just because they can run faster than somebody else
[19:51]and do pull up smarter than somebody else,
[19:53]they're going to give them a badge and a gun
[19:55]and the ability to impact another person's life
[19:58]by either taking away the freedom
[19:59]or taking away the freedom.
[20:00]way their life. And so we have to look at who we make police officers. I think that's
[20:04]the crux of it. The quality of the candidates for bringing in, raising the standards,
[20:09]creating national standards, even polygraph testing. Some people are, it's a very controversial
[20:14]thing like I in the U.S. Secret Service I was polygraph. And then multiple times, and then I
[20:18]would polygraph applicants coming in. And I cannot tell you how many times people were coming in
[20:22]for a job, a job, and it would end up being a criminal interview in the end, or they would confess
[20:28]having committed certain acts, and I'm thinking, you can't be an agent, carry a bad your gun.
[20:34]And we would disqualify them, but get this. Then they would leave, and they would go to another law
[20:39]enforcement entity that did not polygraph, that could not corroborate what I just did, and they would get
[20:45]the job. So that's the problem. We have to raise our standards and be very thoughtful about how we hire
[20:52]and who we hire. Because when you have an educated police for, even somebody who has a college degree,
[20:58]think about that. When you finish high school, you're in your hometown with your friends,
[21:01]and the same bubble as people you've been in your whole life. But when you go to college,
[21:06]when you're around other people, a diverse group of people, you learn to communicate
[21:09]a different sense of responsibilities placed upon you, an appreciation of other people.
[21:14]It opens your mind. The more you read, the more you learn, the more you connect with people.
[21:17]Now you have a different type of police officer. So I really do believe that they're
[21:22]in lies the crux of the issue, changing that. I feel like you need to be a main spokesperson
[21:28]for all of this. I mean, I know you aren't outspoken at all the rest, but I don't know. I feel like
[21:32]you need to be on the front page of the newspaper, getting out and getting on to you constantly,
[21:37]and I don't know. I think you know what's important, right? Because when I talk to the law enforcement,
[21:42]and it's hard because you get so connected to it, because you do it, and you're on the barrage.
[21:47]Don't get me wrong. People are brutal. Society is brutal. And cruel. I remember when I
[21:52]went into the police department, I started me in YPD. I was there very little. But we used to run
[21:57]on the FDR highway here in New York City. And the cars go like 50, 60 miles of power as you're
[22:02]cruising by. And I remember people spinning on us, like aiming to spit on us, flipping us a finger,
[22:08]calling me horrible names. And I'm thinking, what did I do to you? I don't even know you, because
[22:13]that was in uniform. You know, it is despite what I represented. And I think it goes both ways,
[22:19]because what you do is when you spit on that person, you also don't know who they are. You don't
[22:24]know why they're doing what they're doing. And the majority of law enforcement, I will tell you,
[22:28]they don't do it for the paycheck. They do it because they want to impact and have a meaningful
[22:33]life and give meaning to other people's lives. And even my students, I tell them I teach as an adjunct,
[22:39]when they see sometimes the injustices and they say, how do I change this? I tell them, go become
[22:43]a police officer, go become a prosecutor, a DA, go become a judge, change it, don't sit there
[22:51]and yell and scream and throw things and be part of the make the problem worse, change it,
[22:56]do something. And I think that's where we have to look at that.
[23:00]Gosh, you are so inspiring. You're like, I'm ready to like, you know, change gears here in the
[23:06]my mid-40s and become a prosecutor or something. Anyway, tell me about your experience
[23:14]actually writing this book. What was that like compared to your previous career and how did you find
[23:19]that experience? Hard. Hard. I envy any other person out there who's like, I love writing,
[23:26]I'm a great author. For me, it was so difficult. One because I wanted to write a book to help people.
[23:32]Like, that was a core, the principle of why I wrote the book and I kind of had to fight,
[23:36]you know, the other entities that were like, more stories about you, more stories about you.
[23:40]And I was just like, you know, this is not my memoir. And if I'm writing something to help people,
[23:45]it can't be about me. And if I'm going to share a story, I wanted it to have a reason
[23:48]up to why I was sharing that story. And look, that's just my DNA. It's just how I felt when I was
[23:53]writing it. But then at the same time, trying to articulate in a book all these different things
[23:59]that I do, these processes, because I've been doing them for so long. And even other agents,
[24:04]I would see employing some of these same strategies and skills, but they didn't have a name.
[24:08]But I would see that we would handle problems a certain way. So I'd go to work. Something crazy
[24:13]would be happening in the world, but you'd go to work. Everyone's like, hey, what's up? What's up?
[24:16]We were never stressed out or bombarded with the drama of the world sometimes, even when bad
[24:22]things were happening, because we had been able to adapt to stressful environments very easily.
[24:27]We were able to absorb and digest negativity in crises in a thoughtful way. And then you see the
[24:35]difference with the public. And you're thinking, man, I want to take this stuff and give it to the
[24:39]public so that when things are happening, you don't feel like completely lost. You don't feel like
[24:44]you completely want to fall apart. And it was like over the years, I was thinking, what if people
[24:49]come to me with over the years, the problems, the issues, and how have I given them a device?
[24:54]And then also, how have I evolved? What has helped me? And so that part was difficult in trying
[25:00]to figure out what was meaningful and impactful to people. And I wrote it as a book, too,
[25:05]because I love books. I think books really opened the mind and brought in the mind. And I'm a big
[25:09]audio book listener. I love audio books. I don't have time to read so I listen. And I would say,
[25:16]how can I help transform people? And how can I write a book that people will go back to? And that
[25:20]will finish. That was the other thing they told me. Nobody ever finishes nonfiction books. And I
[25:25]was thinking, man, I don't want that to be my book. I want someone, I don't want people to buy it
[25:29]and be like, oh, great, they bought my book. I want them to buy it and listen to it and to get an email
[25:34]and say, thank you, it changed my life. And your book is already an audible bestseller. So,
[25:40]like, mission accomplished. I know I put so much heart into the audio book because I love
[25:46]audio books. And I love it when I hear the author and the person who wrote it, like, talk to me
[25:52]because you want to feel like they're there with you. And in truth, I was like, I'm here. And that's
[25:56]what I wanted. But it came from a place of authenticity. I was like, yes, I'm here with you. Here's my
[26:01]voice. Hear me. You're going through this. It's going to be okay. I know it sucks. But let's figure it out.
[26:07]Here's the steps you can do. And I was so happy when I saw that. I was more excited about the
[26:13]the audio book than anything because of how important and valuable audiobooks have been to me.
[26:18]Well, now I have to go back and listen to the audio book. I only had the email
[26:22]new script ever, but all right, well, now I'll put that on in the car. Perfect. Do you have any
[26:28]advice for aspiring authors? Just be patient and be kind to yourself. Don't worry about making it
[26:34]perfect. In the beginning, I just kind of vomited my stuff. I really did. I spent like a couple of
[26:39]months just vomiting information. And I wasn't worried about how it sounded or the structure of it.
[26:45]I was thinking about the content. And take breaks. Because if you're just in it the whole time,
[26:51]your brain needs a little bit of a break. And I would take breaks from writing. I said, I need to
[26:56]step away. I'm in it. I'm spinning my wheels. Let me go do something completely different. That's
[27:01]not so cognitive heavy. And then go back into it. And that's really those were the key things for me.
[27:08]And then I think one more thing. And I do it now because we're all kind of like working from home
[27:13]for the most part. I would every morning I would get dressed like as if we were going out on the
[27:18]day that I would write because I would write from home. And I'd even put shoes on. And I'd sit
[27:23]down out my desk because if I were going to work because it kind of, it caused a mental shift for me.
[27:27]I'm like, nope, I'm at work now. I'm not at home. And that actually helped me be more productive
[27:32]in my writing rather than feel like I'm holding them in my pajamas. I got rooted that Bible
[27:37]wearing shoes. Who knew? I've been doing it all wrong. Oh, I do it. I do it now. Every morning
[27:43]I wake up. I put my shoes on. I get dressed as if I'm going out. It just shifts the mind, the mindset
[27:49]because you're like, no, I'm at work. Because when we're at home, we get distracted. We're home. We're
[27:54]now the home version of ourselves. And it's harder to have self-discipline in that way.
[27:59]Now you're absolutely right. Wow.
[28:01]Evie, thank you so much. This has been just so eye-opening in so many ways. And thank you. Your
[28:07]book was amazing. And I can't wait to listen to the audiobook version now. And the advice was
[28:11]invaluable. And I just have so much respect for you and what you've done. And what a role model
[28:18]of a woman you are. And that I can, you know, go tell my kids that all the things that you've done
[28:23]and you've been able to accomplish. And it's just really, really awesome. So I'm really glad
[28:28]I got to know you a little bit today. Thank you. I so appreciate the time and the conversation.
[28:33]And definitely when you're talking to them, just remember authority, drop the voice,
[28:36]lock in the eye contact, go in. And you're going to see, I'd be curious. You're going to see a
[28:40]shift on the way they receive you. Totally. I will channel you as I try to get them to bed.
[28:47]Absolutely. Okay. Thanks so much. Okay. Thank you. Be well and stay safe.
[28:52]You too. Thank you. So that's it. That's the last day of the July book blast. That's the
[28:57]last of the Empowerment Friday episodes. Go back. Listen to the last 10 days. There's so many
[29:03]amazing episodes. I really hope you've stuck with me and listened and sampled and gotten inspired
[29:09]to read more and gotten some great life tips along the way. And above all, felt connected
[29:14]through the power of storytelling. Thanks for listening. Thanks again for listening to my podcast.
[29:20]Moms don't have time to read books. If you liked this episode, please follow me on Instagram
[29:25]at Zippy Owens and at Moms don't have time to read books and sign up for my mailing list at
[29:30]Zippy Owens.com so you can always hear about the latest things I'm up to you. Thanks a lot.
[29:35]Thanks so much to Page One Books for sponsoring today's episode. I hope you'll all check out my
[29:39]summer beach bundle at page one books dot com. Thanks so much to Steve and Ryan at Texture
[29:44]Sound for the sound editing. And thank you to Morning Moon Productions for providing this
[29:49]fantastic intro and now trim music. Thanks for listening. You could always email me at
[29:53]Zippy at Zippy Owens.com.