Holly Martyn, WOULD IT KILL YOU TO PUT ON SOME LIPSTICK?
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[1:44]Holly Martin is the author of Would It Kill You to Put On Some Lipstick. She's a writer,
[1:49]storyteller, memoirist, mother, frequent flyer, and former Wall Street executive who shares her
[1:54]many adventures in life, travel, and dating. Welcome, Holly. Thanks for coming on Mountain
[1:59]Time to read books. Thanks for having me on Zebi. We spoke what wasn't about a month ago on my
[2:05]Instagram live show, which was so much fun, and I loved talking to you then, so I wanted to hear more
[2:10]from you now. So that's how we got here. And I know, and I think our conversation kind of lit up
[2:16]the last time we spoke was when you're a divorced mom as well, or now you've remarried.
[2:21]But we had started to get into some of the psychological aspects of being a single mom,
[2:29]and being divorced, and dating, which I think you could relate to as well.
[2:33]Yeah, you want to talk about that? That sounds juicy and good.
[2:37]I mean, I think part of what you have to do when you are deciding to get divorced,
[2:42]or I'm going through that process and dating is to kind of get your head on straight.
[2:47]And one of the things that I realized, as I was writing a book, was that I felt this huge sense
[2:53]of shame about being divorced. And I felt like in many ways our society reinforces that view of
[3:02]women, particularly single women and single moms. Would you agree with that?
[3:08]You know, I think just sometimes people don't know what to do with things that don't fit in
[3:13]all the right boxes necessarily. I think like when you go from the world of being part
[3:18]of a couple to then not as particularly the people who are still part of couples don't exactly
[3:23]know how to handle it. And I think they immediately feel badly for you. When maybe they
[3:28]you don't need any sympathy or people make a lot of assumptions, I think, about what you must feel,
[3:33]or you must think, or I think some people, and I don't know if you experience this,
[3:38]you didn't know how to, like, I know at least when I got separated in the divorce,
[3:42]didn't exactly know how to deal with me or talk to me or, you know, what it meant for them.
[3:48]And I think that's the other thing. I think when a close friend or something gets divorced,
[3:51]and I don't know if this happened with your friends, people are like, oh, if it could happen to her,
[3:54]it could happen to me, or like, you know, I better like stay away, like it's contagious or something.
[3:59]Yeah, divorce kudos, right? Yeah, exactly. Well, back up for two seconds and tell everybody
[4:04]the name of your book, why you wrote your book, what's in your book, and then let's go back to
[4:08]this. Okay. So the name of my book is, would it kill you to put on some lipstick a year and a hundred
[4:15]dates? And it's a memoir slash manual about the year after, first year after my divorce, as I
[4:23]grappled with being a single mom, and having to date again, I was absolutely flabbergasted that I
[4:32]was twice divorced. I thought I'd never have to date again. And frankly, I'd never really
[4:35]dated that much ever. So I decided to chronicle the experience of trying to rebuild my life.
[4:42]And how to go? Well, you know, at the back, I think we talked about this last time. The back
[4:48]story was that I had been sitting in a spa, feeling sorry for myself, and I happened upon an
[4:53]article about a woman in a position similar to mine. She was a young, she was a widow in her late
[4:59]30s with a newborn, her husband had died of cancer, and she crossed paths with the late Joan Rivers
[5:05]who knew the woman well enough to look at her and say, you know, you're kind of letting yourself go,
[5:11]would it kill you to put on some lipstick, set up an online account, go in a hundred dates,
[5:17]and you'll meet somebody? And I was struck by that, and I thought, wow, could it really be that
[5:25]and so that's sort of the motivation and the idea behind my memoir. And I found that, you know,
[5:33]the book got away from me in the best of ways. It's a little bit like sex in the city meets
[5:39]eat prey love. I talk about a lot of the funny dates, the heartbreak, and then also what's
[5:46]happening with me and my head and my heart is I tried to reconcile my life up until this point.
[5:53]And that became a big thing that I was looking at as I was dating again. I really didn't want to
[5:59]make the same mistakes I'd made in the past. I wanted a fresh start, and I thought, this is really
[6:05]my chance to get it right this time. The town, so I always make proclamations like that like, well,
[6:11]this time I'm not gonna, you know, snap at my kids or like, you know, this new year, you know,
[6:17]now I'm gonna be patient or I'm gonna not repeat the same things that have been my default
[6:22]coping, but somehow they keep creeping back in. Did you find that happen to you?
[6:26]Well, I, you know, one thing I did do well is that I decided to keep an open mind because what
[6:34]I found was that because I had already had a child, I had my attempt at a happy sort of traditional
[6:43]family. I thought, you know, this time around, rather than dating and maybe being with someone
[6:49]somebody that I quote unquote should be with, what if I just cleared the decks and kept an open
[6:54]mind about age, income, all of those things, like just being totally open-minded and open-hearted
[7:01]to who I might date and to not be bound by societal ideas of what I should be doing?
[7:10]That sounds like something you can achieve.
[7:13]And it was, you know, what is great is that what was different this time around for me when I was
[7:19]dating is, you know, dating apps and online dating didn't exist the last time I was single and
[7:25]suddenly the dating landscape had changed and it really opens up opportunities for you to meet
[7:32]people that you would have never crossed paths with otherwise. You know, in the past we tended to
[7:38]and marry the people we worked with or the people we went to school with or the people that we met
[7:43]at church or synagogue, right? People in our circle and technology allows us now to really break
[7:49]right out of that and it's exciting. So how did your daughter handle your 100 dates?
[7:54]She, you know, at the time she was like eight, nine years old and, you know, she was a hilarious,
[8:02]you know, peanut gallery. I don't know if you saw my book trailer but there's a moment in the
[8:08]book trailer which literally happened exactly as in real life. I, you know, I thought I'm going to
[8:14]update my wardrobe. I'm going to, you know, try to be a little more chic. I'm going to get out of
[8:20]my mom garb and I go out and I buy this big fluffy jacket and, you know, get on some cool jeans
[8:27]getting ready to go out on a date and I walk out and I say to my daughter, how do I look? And
[8:32]she looks me up and down head to toe and says, you look like a werewolf. She was always,
[8:41]always correcting me like I come out. She goes, don't you think you need a camisole under that?
[8:46]Like she's, and I, you know, I tried to be really honest with her about the things that we're going
[8:51]through my head and I wanted her to start to think about who should we be with and who shouldn't
[8:58]we be with and why? And she would find, I would only introduce her to somebody if I had become
[9:04]serious about the person but, you know, even if she hadn't met the person, she would say, well,
[9:08]how is it going with, you know, XYZ? And I would, I would, you know, give her a cleaned up version
[9:14]for a child and, but explain. I broke up with him because he treated me this way or it's going well
[9:20]because because I wanted her to learn, you know, it was something that I was never taught.
[9:25]How do we be treated well in love? Yes, it's so important. I remember, I mean, I think the whole
[9:31]thing of dating when you have kids is such a crazy experience. I remember when I, before I was
[9:39]already in a relationship with Kyle who became my husband, but I was about to introduce them. And I
[9:43]remember asking the kids, you know, well, if you could design like a perfect guy for me to date,
[9:48]like what characteristics would be important to you. And I remember like holding my brother,
[9:52]he like, I hope they picked some of the things that he has, you know. And did they? They did. They did.
[9:59]I mean, you know,
[10:00]Yeah, he's pretty great guy.
[10:01]I mean, it's, I mean, I was lucky,
[10:02]but I was sort of holding my breath there.
[10:04]And I mean, they weren't, I mean,
[10:06]I think that one of them said like he had to play with dolls.
[10:09]I mean, I had like a little kid too.
[10:10]So he didn't meet all the boxes,
[10:12]but the ones that he could meet, you know,
[10:14]that were reasonable, I think.
[10:15]But at least I wanted them to know
[10:16]not that they could pick who I ended up with,
[10:18]but that their input really mattered to me
[10:21]because it was a decision that was gonna be for all of us.
[10:24]Absolutely.
[10:25]And not just something that would benefit or affect me
[10:27]that they were sort of like integral players
[10:29]and the whole thing.
[10:30]Well, it's a new, it's a member of the family.
[10:34]It's a big deal.
[10:35]Yeah, it's like adopting a grown-up.
[10:37]Exactly. And their family and maybe their kids
[10:41]did Kyle bring children as well?
[10:43]He did not.
[10:44]Yeah, no, he's just been a great stepdad to my four kids.
[10:48]And no, I told him I was like, I'm not having more kids.
[10:51]So you should just like run the other way
[10:53]and go marry some young, pretty big
[10:55]who wants to have her own family
[10:56]and you should just go do that.
[10:57]And he's like, no, one of the youth youth.
[10:59]So, wow, I don't know.
[11:01]He probably regrets it and I'm sure he does not.
[11:05]But yeah, no, so that would also,
[11:07]I mean, obviously that would add
[11:08]a layer of complications to things.
[11:10]So at least that, no, we didn't have to deal with that.
[11:12]But going back to your book,
[11:14]I've been gone on all these dates
[11:15]and realized perhaps what's more important to you
[11:18]and what's not as important to you,
[11:20]going forward, what are some of the most important things
[11:23]you've learned?
[11:24]What are some of the things that if somebody else
[11:26]was like, oh gosh, where do I even start in this process?
[11:30]I'm totally overwhelmed,
[11:31]but would your advice kind of be for that person or all that?
[11:34]Okay, so I would say the first thing is to ask yourself
[11:38]if you're really serious about wanting
[11:41]to have love in your life again.
[11:43]Because some people kind of approach it halfheartedly
[11:47]and say, oh yeah, maybe,
[11:48]or maybe they're not really being honest with themselves.
[11:51]And for me, I realized I did want to find my person
[11:55]and I did want love in my life.
[11:57]And I was willing to commit to it.
[11:59]And I wasn't gonna do this in a half-assed way.
[12:03]I was gonna go for it.
[12:04]And the whole premise of the book kind of set me up to do that.
[12:08]It gave me the discipline.
[12:09]So I started to approach dating in my 40s
[12:14]with a plan and a commitment.
[12:16]So I told myself that whenever my daughter was with her dad,
[12:20]I would not stay at home and Netflix and eat pizza.
[12:24]I would go down to the local wine bar
[12:28]or go into the city to a restaurant
[12:31]and eat dinner up at the bar.
[12:32]And if someone spoke to me or started a conversation,
[12:35]I would talk to people.
[12:36]I would start to expand my circle.
[12:39]And so that opened up a whole new world.
[12:43]And it opened up a whole new world for me
[12:45]not only in terms of people that I might date.
[12:48]I made great women friends.
[12:50]I've made great professional contacts.
[12:53]And that's one thing that happens to people
[12:55]when they get divorced is you kind of lose some of your friends.
[12:59]And you lose some family members, right?
[13:03]People tend to take sides.
[13:04]So it's really important when you get divorced
[13:06]to expand your circle.
[13:08]And expand your circle with fresh, positive people
[13:12]who are gonna support you in this new phase of your life.
[13:16]And to kind of do, it gets an opportunity.
[13:18]It's painful, but it's also an opportunity
[13:20]to do some spring cleaning.
[13:22]And then the other thing I did to get the dates
[13:25]was I did go on dating apps and set up on,
[13:29]try different apps, which I got some dates that way.
[13:32]And I met some wonderful people that way.
[13:34]And then the third thing that I did was I put the word out
[13:36]to friends and family, hey, I'm single.
[13:39]And if you know of anybody who's single
[13:42]and you wanna set me up on a blind date, I'll go on it.
[13:44]And I was really open minded about it.
[13:47]I figured it's one hour out of your life
[13:49]to go have a coffee or go have a drink.
[13:52]And again, I met wonderful people that way too.
[13:56]And so can you share where you ended up
[14:00]like in relationship land?
[14:02]Well, you know, it's funny.
[14:03]I wrote, would it kill you to put on some lipstick
[14:06]about four or five years ago.
[14:08]And it covered a year of my life.
[14:10]And I don't wanna give away the ending,
[14:12]but let's just say the formula worked.
[14:15]I did meet somebody really wonderful.
[14:17]Since then, he and I are not together,
[14:20]but remain good friends and our daughters remain good friends.
[14:23]And not too long after that,
[14:26]I ended up being in a two year relationship with somebody
[14:29]who set me up on a blind date.
[14:31]So he and I are not together anymore.
[14:33]We're still actually very close friends.
[14:35]And, you know, I can't say that I've regretted
[14:39]anybody I've dated or any relationship I've been in.
[14:42]And I think the further I get into dating,
[14:46]more I realize that every combination of two human beings
[14:49]is like new chemicals, right?
[14:51]It's like everything, it's always new and fresh.
[14:54]Just when you think that you've seen it all
[14:57]met every personality type,
[15:00]you just never know what's around the corner.
[15:02]And it's really exciting.
[15:04]So I'm dating, I have a few stalkers.
[15:07]And of course, I haven't really been able
[15:11]to see anybody very much in this pandemic.
[15:15]I love what you just said about every new interaction
[15:18]between two people creates new chemicals or whatever.
[15:21]Because it's so true.
[15:22]I feel like in every relationship,
[15:25]every, it's not just you learning about them,
[15:27]a new piece of view kind of rises up to meet them as well.
[15:30]And like in the version of yourself
[15:33]and it can like snap into it so quickly,
[15:36]not like dramatically different.
[15:37]But just like a, you know, slightly, you know,
[15:40]different version.
[15:41]Does that make sense?
[15:42]Absolutely. I read something today on Instagram.
[15:45]Someone had a quote about just how dating
[15:48]can trigger us positively or negatively
[15:51]into parts of ourselves, parts of our childhood
[15:55]that we may not even know is there.
[15:57]And whether we can face those triggers
[16:00]and those feelings,
[16:01]both positive and negative will sometimes determine.
[16:04]And then this is also happening in the person you've met
[16:06]can also determine whether you choose
[16:09]to stay in that relationship
[16:10]or in some cases, it's burned you to bolt, right?
[16:13]Totally.
[16:14]I also realized, and I try to like give advice
[16:17]to friends who are dating about this.
[16:18]Like I used to say like, oh, well, you know,
[16:21]what was wrong with this guy?
[16:22]Well, I don't know, he, I don't know.
[16:24]And I would like highlight something about him.
[16:26]Like it, I didn't like his shirt.
[16:28]I didn't like the way he folded up his sleeves
[16:29]or like, I didn't like that he wore necklace
[16:31]or I don't know, something stupid, right?
[16:33]But it wasn't that at all.
[16:35]It's just sometimes it's so hard to put a finger
[16:38]on when you just like don't know why,
[16:41]but it just wasn't right.
[16:42]So it's so much easier to say,
[16:44]well, this particular external thing is what did it?
[16:47]When that has nothing to do with it.
[16:49]So like don't even met me just,
[16:51]and it's hard to come up with the shorthand for friends
[16:55]or even acquaintances.
[16:56]Like, oh, you're not with so and so anymore.
[16:58]What happened?
[16:59]Right.
[17:00]That too.
[17:01]What's the sound bite to get them off your case?
[17:05]I mean, relationships are so multi-layered.
[17:09]There's so much that goes into every relationship,
[17:13]dating, marriage.
[17:14]I mean, your ex, like our ex husband,
[17:16]it's just like, it's so impossible to sum up any of it,
[17:19]I feel like, right?
[17:21]Oh, let's just, what happened with your tenure?
[17:23]I'm like, no, there's no one answer.
[17:25]It's like it was a lifetime of something.
[17:28]And, you know, and I write about this in lipstick as well
[17:31]is my relationship with my ex husband,
[17:34]the father of my daughter, has completely changed.
[17:38]We are truly friends and he has a girlfriend
[17:42]he's been with for six or seven years now.
[17:44]And we get along great.
[17:47]It wasn't that in the beginning.
[17:48]We were all just, I don't wanna say enemies,
[17:52]but we were just, there was no trust.
[17:54]We had to build a new relationship
[17:56]and a new extended family for our girl that we love.
[18:00]Yeah, I think time is so critical.
[18:03]Like, things change so much over time
[18:05]with after divorce, even with the friends.
[18:07]I don't know if you found this with your friends.
[18:09]Like, some people who I felt like at the very beginning
[18:12]were sort of vocal opponents or did things
[18:15]that really hurt my feelings right at the beginning
[18:18]and have since now that it's been, I don't know, five years
[18:20]or so had come around and said, you know what?
[18:23]I would like, I regretted my behavior.
[18:25]I'm really sorry for that or whatever.
[18:27]Not that I don't know.
[18:28]I just feel like time in divorce and probably in everything,
[18:32]but it just changes so much for you and the people around you
[18:36]and also, you know, all your relationship afterward.
[18:40]So I don't know, time itself just changes so much.
[18:43]And it's like what we were talking about a minute ago
[18:46]is that when one couple splits up,
[18:48]it often, you know, motivates your circle
[18:51]to look at their own marriages and their own relationships.
[18:54]And sometimes what you're hearing in terms of their feedback
[18:58]about your split up is really more about what's going on
[19:01]with them than what's going on with you.
[19:03]Yes, I wish I had known that the day
[19:05]that I was going around telling everybody
[19:07]and some people would burst into tears
[19:09]and some people would be like, well, how do you feel?
[19:12]And some people would just be like, you know,
[19:14]how could that happen?
[19:15]Yeah, so it's a lot.
[19:16]You have to deal with like, you have to take on everyone else's
[19:19]stuff.
[19:20]Yeah, at a time when your feeling chances are pretty depleted.
[19:24]Yeah, probably.
[19:26]I don't know.
[19:27]Anyway, your book.
[19:28]So how long did it take the actual writing of the book?
[19:31]And did you like it enough that you would want to do another book?
[19:34]And if so, what would that be?
[19:36]And if not, what's next?
[19:38]OK, so it took me, OK, so it took a year to live it.
[19:43]And then it took about another three years to write it.
[19:45]I have about, I literally have 10 different incarnations
[19:50]of the book.
[19:50]The 10th was the one that went to press.
[19:53]What's exciting, what's happening in the last few months,
[19:57]and I can't give too much detail.
[19:58]But I've actually been approached.
[20:00]to turn it into a television series.
[20:03]That's awesome, I'm so happy for you.
[20:05]Thank you.
[20:06]So moving along, it would be sort of like a divorced
[20:09]sex in the city, because there is this episodic nature
[20:13]to 100 dates.
[20:14]So I'm definitely interested in being a writer
[20:18]on that project.
[20:19]I would definitely commit myself to that.
[20:22]I don't see myself as someone who's
[20:24]going to spend the rest of her life writing about her love
[20:26]life, I've started my next book, which
[20:30]is called Drinking with Mimes.
[20:32]And it's stories of me back in the day
[20:35]when we could still do this, jump on an airplane,
[20:37]show up in a new country, unscripted by myself
[20:41]and write about the people that I meet on the road,
[20:43]the stories, the crazy adventures.
[20:45]And that book has been going really well.
[20:47]And I wanted to kind of not only, I think it's a great sequel,
[20:51]but not only just sort of show that just because you
[20:54]get divorced, and even if you haven't found somebody yet,
[20:57]you can still have these great adventures.
[20:59]And I did.
[21:00]Like the first trip I did, I went to Cantimita, Mexico,
[21:06]then I went to Copenhagen for Christmas,
[21:10]who I, by the way, randomly met Katy Perry at the time.
[21:14]She was like, that's fair.
[21:15]That's a good title, by the way, Copenhagen for Christmas.
[21:18]Yeah, and then I got a bonus trip on Christmas
[21:21]a friend of mine who's a writer said, oh,
[21:23]he got to go over to Sweden and meet my brother.
[21:26]He's a mom.
[21:26]And so that's why it's called drinking with mom.
[21:28]So he's a literal mom, the people that don't speak, right?
[21:32]Yeah, you're with me.
[21:34]I'm with you, I'm following you.
[21:36]And then from there, I went to Lisbon for New Year's
[21:39]and ended up meeting this fabulous gay man
[21:42]who owned a small palace and invited me
[21:45]to his New Year's party.
[21:47]So why not?
[21:48]Why not?
[21:48]That was a star of the book.
[21:49]So once we get out of this COVID situation
[21:53]and I'm able to travel again, I want to finish off that book.
[21:55]Excellent.
[21:56]Do you have any advice to aspiring authors?
[21:59]The only advice I have is don't give up and just keep at it.
[22:04]It took, I literally got up at five o'clock in the morning
[22:07]for 14 years before I got published
[22:11]and to just dig in and don't give up.
[22:15]And the writer that I thought I was at year one
[22:18]and what my voice was then bears,
[22:21]almost no resemblance to what I write now.
[22:23]It's a process that you just have to go through
[22:27]and there's no shortcuts and enjoy that process.
[22:31]And if you enjoy the process,
[22:33]then whether you're published or not,
[22:36]really becomes irrelevant.
[22:37]Very true.
[22:38]Awesome.
[22:39]Well, Holly, thank you.
[22:40]Thanks for, I feel like I had like a little mini therapy
[22:43]session in my own year about like,
[22:46]all the stuff that I'm five years ago,
[22:47]but thank you for sharing your experiences
[22:50]and your great book and all the rest.
[22:52]And thank you.
[22:53]Thank you so much.
[22:54]All right.
[22:55]Take it apart.
[22:56]Thank you too.
[22:57]Bye bye.
[22:58]So that's it.
[22:58]That's the last day of the July book blast.
[23:01]That's the last of the Empowerment Friday episodes.
[23:04]Go back.
[23:05]Listen to the last 10 days.
[23:06]There's so many amazing episodes.
[23:09]I really hope you've stuck with me and listened and sampled
[23:12]and gotten inspired to read more
[23:14]and gotten some great life tips along the way
[23:17]and above all felt connected through the power of storytelling.
[23:20]Thanks for listening.
[23:22]Thanks again for listening to my podcast.
[23:24]Moms don't have time to read books.
[23:26]If you liked this episode, please follow me
[23:28]on Instagram at zippyowans
[23:31]and at moms don't have time to read books
[23:33]and sign up for my mailing list at zippyowans.com
[23:36]so you can always hear about the latest things I'm up to.
[23:39]Thanks a lot.
[23:39]Thanks so much to Page One Books for sponsoring today's episode.
[23:42]I hope you'll all check out my summer beach bundle
[23:45]at pageonebooks.com.
[23:46]Thanks so much to Steve and Ryan at Texture Sound
[23:49]for the sound editing.
[23:50]And thank you to Morning Moon Productions
[23:52]for providing this fantastic intro and outram Music.
[23:55]Thanks for listening.
[23:56]You can always email me at zippyowans.com.