Sophie Mackintosh, BLUE TICKET
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[1:49]to read. Sophie McIntosh is the author of The Water Cure, which was long-listed for the 2018
[1:54]man Booker Prize, and won the 2019 Betty Trask Award. In 2016, she won the White Review Short Story
[2:01]Prize, and the Virago Stylist Short Story Competition. She has been published in The New York Times,
[2:07]Elle, and Grant to Magazine, among others. We're going to be talking today about her most recent
[2:11]novel called The Blue Ticket. Welcome, Sophie. Thanks so much for coming on, mom.
[2:15]Don't have time to read books. Thank you for having me. That's such a pleasure.
[2:19]I was just saying the blue ticket is so fresh in my mind because I just finished it,
[2:23]and now I have like a zillion questions about it. Would you mind just telling listeners
[2:26]quickly what the book is about? Sure. So it's set in a world where on the day of your first period,
[2:32]girls are sent to a sort of lottery station, they pick a ticket from a machine, and the ticket
[2:37]dictates whether they can have a child or not. So if you pick a blue ticket, you are kind of given
[2:42]without children, and if you pick a white ticket, you have to have children. So then the book follows
[2:46]a protagonist's colour, as she grapples with her tickets, she picks up the ticket. It's got a spoiler
[2:51]to say that she kind of feels the ticket is the wrong colour for her. So she wants to change her
[2:57]ticket, so to speak, and then we follow her on this journey towards motherhood. Well, imagine if that's
[3:02]the way it really works in the world. At least you would know, I guess, what fate awaits you
[3:07]or perhaps was intended. How did you come up with the idea for this? Tell me about the inspiration
[3:12]for this story. Well, I turned my whole life just being really sure that I didn't want to have
[3:16]children, and then something sort of happened when I got to my late 20s. I'm still kind of not sure
[3:21]whether it was, you know, social stuff, seeing it run around me, having babies, or whether it was,
[3:26]it just, you know, the time was right, but suddenly I just got really booty, like so booty.
[3:31]And I thought it would be interesting to kind of explore that in fiction, because it was really
[3:35]kind of disappointing to have, you know, to have this really strong idea that I knew how my life
[3:40]was going to be, and it was going to be childish, and I was really happy with that. And then suddenly
[3:44]just to be, you know, seeing a pregnant lady or a friend, do baby, and just suddenly wanting to cry
[3:50]and thinking, I want that. I want that so much. And yeah, and I thought this would be kind of a
[3:55]cool way to explore it. But I actually kind of thought about as a horror novel because I was, yeah,
[3:59]again, I was kind of looking into pregnancy and kind of learning more about the physical side and
[4:04]seeing, again, friends having babies, and hearing the kind of horror stories of labor and thinking,
[4:09]you know, it's just, it's such a bright area for exploration and, you know, how could I kind of
[4:15]do a different take on it as someone who has not yet had a baby, but really wants one.
[4:20]And I know you said in your knowledge, I mean, how you had spoken to a lot of women about it.
[4:24]And then I read an interview that you did recently where you said you just didn't realize
[4:28]like some of the physical pain and some of the, like how much the body of the mother is just
[4:33]still so invested in the child and how like, you know, you still have to wake up all throughout the
[4:37]night and every couple hours and your body has to heal and just some of these more like physical
[4:43]things that came out were surprises to you. Do you still want to have kids?
[4:49]It's funny. I just remember I always think about seeing my sister-in-law and just after we had a
[4:53]her first baby and she'd been to like 40 hour labor and, you know, it was just, she was in such pain
[5:00]and she wasn't really prepared for it. And then I saw her like a week after them just happened
[5:05]and, you know, met my loving nephew and she was just exhausted. I think I've never seen anyone
[5:10]that tired before. It was like she was on another planet and it was really, it was really an eye
[5:15]opener because she just seemed totally different to the woman I knew. And I was like, wow, this is,
[5:20]you know, in my brain, I'm like, you have the baby, you carry the baby around and it's lovely
[5:25]and it's sweet and you're just like hanging out and it's like, no, there's a whole level of like
[5:30]physicality that I actually can't go brand. And it's also one that mothers forget sort of right
[5:36]away and enables them to do it all over again, right? And it's like you forget the intensity of
[5:41]all the bad stuff and you're just like, look at my cute little thing, you know, let's do it again.
[5:46]Every time I asked my mom, I was like, it's like, it's like, it's like a painful,
[5:49]someone's a baby painful, my mom was like, oh, I mean, you hold your baby and you get it all in
[5:54]to see and it wasn't until recent issues. Like, yeah, it really, really hurts.
[5:59]So funny. I was actually wondering about your views on having kids and all the rest after reading
[6:04]your book because I felt like throughout the book, you had all these different quotes about, well,
[6:08]you had all these different things that you wrote about childbirth and having kids and I just wanted
[6:13]to read a few of them as quotes. You wrote, as I got older, and this is Callis speaking,
[6:17]as I got older, babies seemed to become malevolent with their power. You also said,
[6:22]childbirth is a kind of death and that your body is hijacked by the baby. You said later,
[6:29]you'll watch the baby every second of the day. You'll be convinced they're dying. You'll hold
[6:34]them to your body and weep. Sometimes you'll think of killing them yourself. So I just want to raise
[6:40]as kind of a big question mark on to the mixed feelings that come with motherhood. What do you think
[6:45]about that? I think it's just that kind of viciousness of the love of it, like from what I kind of
[6:49]what I've learned from people, but also what I've imagined myself and like what friends are
[6:53]told me and my mom. And so I think that kind of, that sense of fear, but also kind of you'll
[6:59]do anything with your baby. That was something, it kind of is self-indegative for the same time.
[7:04]But yeah, I guess the thing about having your body hijacked, that was me grappling with the kind of
[7:08]of physical realities and like, you know, reading science behind it and looking into watching
[7:13]labor videos on YouTube, which I like don't remember necessarily. Yeah. I think I just,
[7:18]I was really interested in as someone who has not had a baby. So I'm always kind of aware that
[7:22]my perspective is obviously as an outsider, but I'm kind of looking at it in a different way,
[7:27]I guess, if someone who has had a baby is kind of this fascination and it's kind of like an
[7:32]almost like enviousness, I guess, because yeah, wanting to have a baby and looking at people having
[7:37]babies and wondering what it would be like. I'm kind of grappling with those feelings.
[7:42]Interesting. So what made you do this book after the water cure, which was nominated for the
[7:48]man Booker Prize and came to so much like literary acclaim and all the rest. And I've heard that
[7:53]your sort of sophomore novel can be a stress-inducing one because of all the pressure of the success
[7:58]of the first novel. Tell me about like starting this versus your last book. Did it feel
[8:03]different? Were you nervous about it? Did it just come naturally? Like, what was your process
[8:08]like both times? I had the idea for a while and I think I wasn't really, I think there was a
[8:15]part of me that was just a bit afraid that I wouldn't be able to do it again. Like, I thought I'd
[8:19]written one book and I was just afraid that maybe I only had one book in me. Even now I had these
[8:24]ideas, things I definitely wanted to write about. I was kind of motivated a little bit by that kind
[8:29]of fear. And I wasn't at all under any pressure for my daughter, so they've always been
[8:33]amazing. I'm like the person who puts the most pressure on myself all the time in kind of everything.
[8:39]I gave myself a deadline basically to kind of try and spare myself on, which is I wanted to have
[8:43]a first draft of due to get ready before the water cure was published because I thought it would
[8:48]kind of, you know, I had no idea what publication was going to be like. I had no idea that things
[8:53]would kind of kick off us. And so having something in reserve that I could focus on and
[8:59]something I could work on, I thought would be really helpful for me. So I did, I gave the
[9:03]first draft of Blue Ticket to my agent the week before the water cure came out. And then even
[9:08]though it wasn't, we didn't have a big deal for it, I just kind of knowing that I had done it,
[9:12]I'd done something even if it was, you know, terrible first draft. It was something to kind of
[9:17]work towards. And how long did it take to write both of these books? Like, did you write, when
[9:21]where did you like to write them? Like, to give me a little visual into your process of writing,
[9:25]please. Oh, yeah. So I think each of them took about two years. I'm going to write the water
[9:29]cure as working full time. I used to be a content manager for a big brand in the UK. So I used to
[9:34]work in the morning for I went to work or I would work after work and like on the weekends.
[9:40]And I had little stations that have been my old in my old flat, a little desk in my living room.
[9:46]It was a tiny flat, but you know, it was cozy. And that's kind of what happened and I used to
[9:51]get a lot of cafes. Seems funny thinking about cafes now because, you know, I've actually written
[9:56]my, like, third, I'm writing my third book, like, sounds cafes, like, no cafe.
[10:00]because of the lockdown. But yeah, for the blue ticket, it was much the same, except I was
[10:06]breaking freelance for that point. So I just had more time. And yeah, I mean, I feel like my
[10:12]process is quite boring, so you kind of wake up and get some words done and just, yeah.
[10:17]That's okay. I read your modern love essay about your partner Christopher and going through
[10:24]battle cancer in your obsession with watching Love Island, The Reality Show, as you
[10:30]grappled with your own emotions. Tell me a little more about that experience and sort
[10:35]of what has happened since, like is everything okay or what's the, I don't know, this
[10:39]is like such an insensitive question. What was the aftermath of that essay?
[10:43]I was a really strange year. I think probably that experience was something that also
[10:49]now looking back on it, because I was kind of, that was just before I started writing
[10:52]well, it was while I was writing the ticket. I'm trying to think, yeah, I think it was
[10:56]one of the things that kind of really influenced my feelings on children, because, you know,
[11:00]suddenly we were having to make, or think about these things and having to think about
[11:03]the future and, you know, think about the potential, if he was going to get chemo and things.
[11:09]Since then, things have been really good. He's doing really well. He's currently in remission,
[11:14]which is amazing. It has been strange to think about because with the lockdown, obviously,
[11:19]it was a strange experience having the book out while also kind of grappling with the
[11:22]cancer. And now kind of having a book out and there's like a massive, actually kind of
[11:27]global disaster happening. I've never really had like a normal book complicated experience,
[11:32]but yeah, I think in some ways, at least everyone's kind of involved this time, because
[11:37]it was quite lonely to be having such an amazing thing happening at the same time with having
[11:42]such a, you know, really heartbreaking, scary thing happening. But yeah, things are kind of weirdly,
[11:47]really more stable now. And how open were you at the time about what you were going through
[11:52]with Christopher? Like, as did everybody know when it came out that this was going on, or is this
[11:57]something that happened after? Because I'm just like jumping into your life now.
[12:01]It was like nose, a week before the wood cure came out. Yeah, no, 10 days. So I gave it my,
[12:07]I gave it the drafted blue ticket and that he was diagnosed and then what it came out was a really
[12:12]intense video. But I had to be really open with everyone because he started going through
[12:17]surgery and stuff kind of almost immediately they needed to get the tumor out. And so I just,
[12:23]yeah, I was really open about it because everyone could see that I was kind of not in the state.
[12:27]I would normally be in and I had to sort of really, really pull it together a bit. I think in a way,
[12:32]it's always like, I was kind of on autopilot and I remember doing things like, you know, I spend
[12:36]a day at hospital and then I'd go to do my dream event is the bookshop called the London Review
[12:42]Bookshop in London. And like, I love it. I love it since I moved to London and I was so excited to do
[12:46]my first event and I just kind of went this trip from the hospital and I was almost in this like
[12:49]weird stage. Oh, I have these little genontotics at a tin in the UK and I was like drinking one
[12:56]to try and get into kind of event mode. There was strange, but everyone was really amazing about it
[13:03]and no one kind of, everyone kind of really understood that it was the strangest time.
[13:07]Wow. I'm so sorry you had to go through that and then it all happened at once, but I'm so happy
[13:12]he's doing well and all the rest. But gosh, what a intense period of time for you. Wow.
[13:19]So this is your first book post all of that sort of trauma in your life, the one that you're writing
[13:24]currently, correct? Yeah. So do you feel like everything that's happened to you has affected
[13:29]your writing in a noticeable way for you as you're going through the draft? One of the things I noticed
[13:36]that I was surprised by is that I assumed it would take me a short time, I guess, to write this book
[13:41]because I was like, finally, I kind of have less going on. I really think it's kind of calm.
[13:46]I'm not waiting for time anymore and writing is actually mainly what I'm doing now. So I have
[13:51]much time. We've moved into like a lovely house with more space. Everything's kind of just feels like
[13:56]optimum writing time. And then it's almost like that thing. I think when things acquire it here and
[14:01]suddenly just you kind of breathe out and you know, you kind of kind of you realize like what
[14:08]will in the couple of years have been. So I haven't been like super productive in the standards I
[14:13]set to myself. And then I'm just trying to trust in the process and know that even if it feels
[14:19]slow to me, it's still actually, you know, Bluetooth has just come out. The more security it came out
[14:23]two years ago, I really, you know, it's not, I'm really not behind. If I only metric, it's just
[14:28]again, my kind of the pressure I put on myself. But writing is like my favorite thing in the world.
[14:32]I love to do it so much. It never kind of feels like something I'm making myself do. And
[14:38]to be writing these books, you know, it's kind of, there's no, there's no other way I'd rather
[14:43]spend my time basically. So nice. How great to like be good at the thing that you like the most.
[14:49]It worked out very well, right? Well, I read another article where you were talking about the
[14:55]importance of like letting people know about rejected manuscripts not in a way to celebrate the
[15:02]one-off successes when people actually do become like overnight, you know, sensations, but that
[15:08]there is so much work. And so many required steps on the way to having a manuscript that's ready
[15:14]to be published, which I thought was such a great thing to hear from a writer because, you know,
[15:19]I talked to writers all the time. And it seems to me that your third attempt at a novel is like
[15:24]the one that's going to sell. I feel like I should just write a book called like only try to sell
[15:28]your third novel or something like that. Like it's like everyone has stuff in a drawer that they
[15:32]feel badly about. And yet, you actually have to do it to to learn how to do it right, I think. So
[15:39]I don't know. What are your views on this? I call them pancake novels. It's very, they kind of did
[15:44]the, they have to do them to get the good pancake. And like this still delicious. It's just not quite
[15:49]right maybe. And then you can get your good pancake after. But yeah, I went through the submission
[15:54]process twice. So I wrote a book that didn't get published. And I did like a major read-write
[16:00]revision that took me like a year, maybe last year. And it's still, I was waiting for time again. And
[16:06]yeah, so to be kind to go through like two rounds of a rejection for a novel was really heartbreaking.
[16:10]And I kind of spent, it felt like I'd spent my whole 20s like, you know, writing this one book.
[16:15]It was the book that I put everything into yet. But like, yeah, maybe six years on it. It was so hard
[16:20]to let it go. But in the end, you know, I had this chat with my agent. She's like, you know,
[16:25]we love the book. But there's something about it that's not clicking with publishers. And,
[16:29]you know, do you have another idea? And I said, yes, I do. That was the water cure.
[16:34]So it was really hard at the beginning. But I think, you know, it kind of, it taught me so much
[16:40]about resilience and about rejection. And because I really didn't think I could write another book.
[16:46]It was like, you know, terrifying. If I put, I really put all my hopes into it. But I could.
[16:51]And I think about that when I remember when I'm like, maybe I can't write a third book or a fourth book.
[16:55]Or maybe maybe you have a, you got two books. It's like, no, it's fine. I've got this.
[16:59]It's not like there's like a spigot. And it only came out with a little bit of water in the
[17:03]well-dries up. Right. It's like, I feel like the more you actually, it's like, the more you pump
[17:07]the well, the more the water like rejuvenates or something. That's the worst analogy ever,
[17:11]particularly for someone who wrote a fuck with water in the title. But anyway, something more like that,
[17:16]like the more you do it, the more it can come out or something. I don't know.
[17:21]I saw something on Twitter as well. I think recently where someone was talking about taking a break
[17:25]from writing and coming back and not to feel afraid of kind of, like, follow periods because
[17:30]your brain is still doing things, you're still taking things in. All things like that. And things
[17:36]that I kind of went through with writing my first book that did not get published. And, you know,
[17:40]I have very fond feelings for the book. And sometimes I look back at it. I go through the word
[17:43]document and, like, kind of allow myself to feel all those feelings, but also remember, like,
[17:48]it wasn't that bad. It wasn't bad at all. It was good enough for my agent to take it in off and
[17:52]take it on. Sorry. And they were published. It's like interested. It just wasn't the one. So,
[17:59]so it all kind of worked out. What types of books do you like to read? Like, what's your,
[18:05]what's your taste in books? I think largely like literary fiction in a such a nebulous genre,
[18:11]but I kind of, I grew up like reading everything. I would genuinely read everything. I was thinking
[18:16]yesterday about how I would read, there was a first aid book in my house. And I think I was the,
[18:21]like, subconsciously tapped into that for a blue ticket because there's a part in it that was like,
[18:25]how to give birth in your house. And I'm reading this and, like, seeing the little diagrams,
[18:31]a lot about towels and hot water and stuff. So I read really weird editing. And I still kind of try
[18:35]and read everything. But yeah, at the moment, I kind of have been going back to, like, comfort
[18:42]books, I guess, which for me is things like shin race and, like, Maggie Nelson. Things are quite
[18:48]easy and short to get through. And that give me a lot of emotional clarity and beauty, I guess.
[18:55]But yeah. Do you have any advice to aspiring authors? I would say, yes, I have lots of trying to think
[19:02]what is the most useful thing in this time of kind of unprecedented global change? I think,
[19:09]yeah, be, I always say be kind to yourself and to just, like, kind of do what you can because
[19:15]I think one of the mistakes I made that really stressed me out was expecting so much of myself and,
[19:21]you know, getting really down to myself for every rejection and taking things really hard and
[19:27]forcing myself and forcing myself. You have to kind of, like you said, with filling the well
[19:32]earlier, you have to put things into yourself to get things out. I think it's really important to take
[19:36]time to take things slowly and to, you know, give yourself things that you enjoy. Basically,
[19:43]yeah, just be good to yourself and just trust that, like, the work will, you know, come from that.
[19:48]That works. That's good advice. I like it. Well, thank you. Thanks so much for coming on
[19:53]mom's. Don't have time to read books. Congratulations. Now I'm hoping that when your third book
[19:57]comes out, it's not paired with some sort of horrendous events.
[20:00]And so maybe like giving a heads up of when your third book
[20:03]is being published and I'm gonna like
[20:05]gird myself and go buy some, you know, paper towels
[20:08]and get ready for whatever disaster.
[20:10]It's like, I think it's like,
[20:11]you can't pull out suits or something.
[20:13]I am getting my hazmat suits for your next book,
[20:15]but no, I'm kidding.
[20:16]Anyway, best of luck with it.
[20:18]I know it just came out, so congratulations.
[20:20]And I look forward to just sort of watching
[20:22]your successes that it unfolds.
[20:25]So it's really exciting.
[20:26]Thank you so much for having me.
[20:28]Okay, you too, bye bye.
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