Erica Katz, THE BOYS' CLUB
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[1:01]and I hope you enjoy it, and I'll be doing the box right along with you. So this is interesting.
[1:06]The Boys Club is the book we're talking about today, and who I interviewed the author about,
[1:10]but the author, Erica Katz, is pseudonym. So I don't really know what her name was,
[1:16]but that's the name on the book, and she was great. Erica Katz, the book, is The Boys Club.
[1:21]She is a graduate of the University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, and Columbia Law School,
[1:25]and began her career at a major Manhattan law firm. She's a native of New Jersey and now lives
[1:30]in New York City, where she is employed at another large law firm. Boys Club is her first novel,
[1:35]and it was already optioned by Netflix. Welcome, Erica. Thanks so much for coming on
[1:39]moms. Don't have time to read books. Thank you so much for having me. I'm so excited to talk to you.
[1:44]I feel like this has been scheduled for so long. So some of them are like long lead time ones.
[1:48]I'm like, oh, it's finally coming up. This is exciting. I mean, this is one of the first
[1:54]podcasts I'm doing, and I sold my book over a year ago. So you think you,
[2:01]this is the most bizarre leading experience of my entire life, especially because I thought it was
[2:08]going to look so different pre-COVID, and now I've been waiting over a year, and here we are,
[2:14]no launch to know if that impending launch to speak of. Oh my gosh. It's still coming out, though,
[2:19]right? I mean, yeah, I was like, yeah, I was like, I didn't get the memo on that. Okay,
[2:25]no reading, no nothing. So it's, you know, it's interesting. I mean, I just, my heart really
[2:31]goes out to everybody who this has happened to. It's just insane. This is like small potatoes
[2:36]compared to how some people are affected by COVID. It just looks different from how I thought
[2:40]it would, but you know, it's all good. I'm super excited about it. So tell me, okay, take me back
[2:45]to when you decided to write this book. I know that you're a lawyer. There's a lot of stuff about
[2:52]a firm that you made up, but you also work for a firm. This is a pseudonym, which is a whole
[2:57]another conversation, which I'm totally impressed you can pull off in today's day and age.
[3:02]So take me back into when, like, did you always like to write? Has this been a lifelong dream?
[3:10]Was it a lark? Just like, how did we get here? So I always loved to read and write. I think I
[3:17]never did anything with professional aspirations, but it was always in the dialogue of my life
[3:25]that I bought to write, et cetera. English sort of is a way my brain works. And writing things
[3:32]down is a lot of how I make sense of things. I was always sort of an, you know,
[3:35]angsty teenager that would write letters that I never sent, you know, to my parents and I
[3:40]as many of them or some, you know, like boyfriend, whatever that means. And I would just write them
[3:47]down and never send them and I sort of got older. I don't think I could compute how to make
[3:54]a living creative writing. And so I think I went to law school more to be financially independent
[4:00]than I did because I had any true passion about being an attorney. I come from a family of doctors
[4:08]and, you know, I was told it's really important to have a profession and I get grossed out
[4:13]by sickness. I don't like touching people. I don't know. So that's sort of what me with law school
[4:20]because there was no way I was going to have a position. I love how you put that in the book. And
[4:24]I guess maybe this is something your parents said to you, like the expectation of the
[4:28]main character's parents were that she'd be a doctor or a lawyer or, and then it like trails off
[4:33]and those are the options. Yeah. I think my parents still struggle with a more creative pursuit
[4:40]of a life, but they've been unbelievably supportive. But I think it was like last week, my mom asked me
[4:48]when can we officially consider you an author? And I was like, I think now, like,
[4:52]but I think she meant like, are you going to write another like what? And I, you know, it's
[4:58]it's always like that with that. I think they're just really sort of science-minded, you know,
[5:03]regular paychecks then 401k's and I don't regret it all or, you know, bemoan at all that they
[5:09]instilled out within me because law school was a tremendous education. And so I went to law school
[5:15]and I became a lawyer and everyone says, as soon as I say that I was a lawyer and I wrote a book
[5:21]every lawyer, I know hates it, you know, so great that you're becoming an author. And the truth is
[5:26]I don't, I didn't hate it. I don't hate it. I actually really liked it. I just, it wasn't, I think
[5:32]my highest and best use as a human being. And I also didn't feel any real need to write creatively
[5:38]until it was about like 20, 2016 going into 2017 and Trump was running and Brett Kavanaugh was
[5:47]having his confirmation hearings and then me too movement was at a boiling point and I was having
[5:54]a ton of sense make ton of difficulty making sense of the world around me. And I started to write
[6:00]with no real aim at writing a novel. But the interesting thing was that the book didn't come out
[6:06]in like the letters I had written when I was younger all first person. It came out first person
[6:11]fiction, which I thought was really interesting. And I think a lot of things that I felt and thought
[6:17]actually were said from other characters perspectives, which psychologically was very interesting
[6:23]to me. But in retrospect, the more I talk about the process of writing the book, I did write
[6:28]because I was having trouble understanding the perspectives of people around me. And I think in the
[6:34]most beautiful way this book was sort of a therapy for me because I had to understand these
[6:39]other perspectives in the novel. And I think it made me like a like, you know, the psychological
[6:44]term is I guess like less judgmental and more settled. But honestly, it just took me out to write
[6:49]a novel. So, you know, it was all it was all great. It was good fun. And I got a lot out of it. And I
[6:54]hope everyone else does too. That's awesome. So what was it like? Like when were you doing this?
[6:59]Did you go to work and then write at night or like when did you get it all done?
[7:03]So I tried for a little lot. I tried everything to do it in the same days that I worked. I tried
[7:09]waking up at like 5 a.m. and going for a run and then writing. I tried, you know, it's kind of
[7:15]difficult as a corporate lawyer to duck out early. But I tried that. What I ended up doing was
[7:20]taking chunks of vacation time for like a year and a half period and rather than vacationing,
[7:26]I would just lock myself in my apartment and try to write this book. And in between, I would
[7:31]jot down ideas. But I found my legal brain so separate from my creative brain that it was really
[7:37]difficult to come home from work and write or like start checking my email and then go into
[7:44]writing. You know, I think part of being an attorney and even working in a law firm, I stopped practicing.
[7:50]And so still working in a law firm is just so precise. Like the objective every day is not to
[7:58]mince words. And you know, to be as direct as possible. And I think that's not the objective when
[8:04]you're writing. And you're giving a lot more leeway to explain your thoughts. And I feel lucky
[8:09]that HarperCollins sort of gave me the leeway to explain my thoughts for as long as or as short as
[8:15]I wanted to. And it's so different from law. So I used to take time away and write. And everyone
[8:21]thought I was nuts. I mean, at first, my friends gave me a hard time. My family told me I was going
[8:26]to like short circuit that the point of a vacation is to vacate your life when I was just sort of
[8:31]cranking away. And I think what people didn't realize is that writing is a complete
[8:36]vacation for me. I love it. I mean, it's a way to get out of myself. And I felt very refreshed
[8:42]and invigorated after these weeks that I would spend writing. It was a little double life
[8:47]issue. Super weird to return to work. And everyone's like, where were you? And like sometimes
[8:52]I'd lie. And I'd be like, I was on my beach. My parents beach house, which just like doesn't exist.
[8:56]But other times, I would just like, you know, change the subject and explain why I wasn't
[9:01]tan coming back from beach vacation. But yeah, it was it was an interesting way to do it. And that's
[9:07]how I did it. Who knows if one day I want to have to take vacations from lots of write a book. And
[9:11]I'll just write books. Why did you feel like you had to hide that from work? Yeah. No, why did you
[9:18]not feel like you could say I hit in my closet and wrote a book? Like, I think that's the coolest
[9:23]thing I've ever heard. But right. Well, I think it raises some eyebrows like, because then in my
[9:29]mind, and by the way, you know, this is all in my mind, the inevitable question would be what's
[9:36]the book about. And then it would say a lot for him. And then I just felt like it would just
[9:40]need so much explanation before I even knew what it was. And I didn't know what it was at first.
[9:45]I mean, the iterations of this book were focused initially on the first draft I wrote, if you
[9:51]you can even consider it a draft, it might just be like a different novel entirely than I
[9:55]threw out. But it was focused on an intro office relationship, like in a fair. And then
[10:00]And I reread it and I very quickly realized it was so flat
[10:03]and I wasn't even interested in it.
[10:04]And I was far more interested in the relationships
[10:07]around the affair, which I think is what the boys
[10:10]club focuses on.
[10:11]I mean, I think those friendships are really strong.
[10:14]I think the other females in the firm come through a lot
[10:17]stronger.
[10:18]So I didn't even know what it was considering
[10:20]I never did an outline for this.
[10:22]So like the idea of someone else asking you to explain it
[10:25]was absolutely terrifying.
[10:27]It had less to do with the judgment behind the questions.
[10:30]And just like, I didn't even know it felt a little ridiculous.
[10:34]So yeah, I just kept it sort of to myself for a while.
[10:37]And was this?
[10:38]I mean, I'm sure everyone will ask you.
[10:39]And I hate asking questions that everybody asks.
[10:41]But in terms of the autobiographical element,
[10:44]like, did you call 911 during your first orientation?
[10:47]Did someone in the room do that by accident?
[10:49]Like, where are you getting all these little snippets?
[10:51]Or is it a mishmosh?
[10:53]So I think the answer is it is a mishmosh.
[10:57]I not just keep buying one more, but I think
[10:59]some of the funnier things are totally made up.
[11:02]Actually, the first draft of the book
[11:04]was more autobiographical than the final.
[11:07]And I think sort of thing spudded some reality
[11:11]and my imagination.
[11:12]I've always had a big imagination, sort of took them
[11:15]and ran with them.
[11:16]But no, I've never forgotten my pants out
[11:21]where I've actually never done cocaine.
[11:25]I do like Google, what does cocaine feel like?
[11:27]I'm really not a drug person.
[11:29]My, like, I'd rather drink.
[11:31]And there's just so many drugs in the book.
[11:34]And there are funny things.
[11:36]Like, I think the first draft I turned in
[11:37]said the character bought a dime bag of cocaine.
[11:40]And my editor called me, like, hysterically laughing at me.
[11:44]Like, that doesn't make any sense.
[11:45]That would be like nothing.
[11:46]And I was like, I don't get it.
[11:48]And she's like, it's $10.
[11:49]And I was like, no, I didn't even know them.
[11:52]But yeah, like stuff like that.
[11:54]And the, I think it's testament to the fact
[11:56]that you can write realistically as long as you're willing
[11:59]to put in the life work of trying to understand
[12:01]someone else's perspective, which I really tried to do.
[12:04]I took a lot of time.
[12:05]I mean, I think you were asking
[12:07]were the funny anecdotes, but there's a sexual assault
[12:10]in the book, which never happened to me.
[12:12]And I spent a ton of time reading firsthand accounts
[12:15]and interviews and police transcripts of victims
[12:19]of sexual assault and crying my eyes out
[12:22]and having a difficult time dating in New York
[12:26]because, you know, everyone just seemed like a predator to me.
[12:29]But yeah, I think I hope, I hope I did justice
[12:32]to the voice of those people.
[12:34]And yeah, a lot, most of the book is completely fabricated.
[12:37]So I have been, has buds of reality.
[12:39]I think, I actually think the only thing
[12:41]that's truly, truly real is the hours,
[12:43]or the hours you work as a first year associate.
[12:46]It was, I mean, for me, it was a grind.
[12:48]And for Alex, it's a grind.
[12:50]So I think that tension you feel in a high stakes
[12:54]work environment, that was sort of probably
[12:56]the most real thing in the book for me.
[12:59]So how did you deal with like the sort of almost self-imposed
[13:03]PTSD with like tons and tons of research
[13:06]on a really painful upsetting topic?
[13:08]How did you sort of weave your way out of that fear
[13:11]or have you?
[13:12]Yeah, I think actually from what I can understand,
[13:15]it's a lot the way it happens for people who go through it
[13:18]is like you process it, you talk about it.
[13:20]For me, I wrote about it.
[13:21]That was a great therapy for me.
[13:23]And you meet people in your life who show you
[13:27]that they're not that way.
[13:28]And sooner or later, you're not just pretending
[13:31]that you're not worried about it.
[13:32]You're just actually not worried about it.
[13:34]And I think that that happened on a far more condensed timeline
[13:37]for me because it was only my imagination.
[13:39]Thank God involved.
[13:41]But I could see the process just taking such a long time
[13:44]and being so grueling.
[13:45]And you know, you really need me to put in the work
[13:48]as you go through the motions of pretending you're OK.
[13:50]And you know, sooner or later, your head
[13:52]catches up to your body if you just sort of live your life.
[13:55]So it was a pretty lesson for me on how to cope with things.
[13:58]And I hope I never really get any closer to it than that
[14:01]because it was hard for me and I want that close to it.
[14:05]I love how you put in transcripts and court-ish things.
[14:09]And you know, I just love like the authenticity,
[14:11]I guess it brings.
[14:12]And I was like, do you read the transcripts?
[14:14]I always wonder.
[14:16]Yeah, in here?
[14:17]In the book?
[14:18]Yeah.
[14:19]I thought that was so hard was trying to keep it.
[14:20]I'm like, I know the defendant.
[14:21]I mean, not to sound like a moron.
[14:23]But that's not my area.
[14:24]I'm not a lawyer.
[14:25]I'm sure if people, I think the majority of people
[14:29]probably don't read as closely as you.
[14:30]And also don't know the nomenclature
[14:33]and will gloss over.
[14:34]But I think there's little nuggets in there
[14:36]that are quite interesting if people put in the time.
[14:39]Personally, I love in books where things
[14:42]get inserted that you're not expecting
[14:45]or that look different or feel different.
[14:46]Or I don't know.
[14:48]It's like sometimes there's a picture in a book.
[14:50]I don't know.
[14:51]Just like, I like that.
[14:52]I read so many books that I love when the form itself
[14:57]takes on a unique shape.
[14:59]So I thought it was really cool.
[15:00]And so actually, that makes me pay more attention
[15:03]to those passages.
[15:04]Because I think why did she put that in?
[15:08]What was the role of that?
[15:09]Why didn't she just summarize that?
[15:10]What am I supposed to get out of this?
[15:12]I don't know.
[15:12]So I think those are really cool.
[15:14]That's great.
[15:15]Yeah.
[15:15]And I think I put those in original transcript form
[15:19]just because at the time I was writing,
[15:21]I kept seeing these victims, unequivocal victims
[15:24]just raped over the coals for things
[15:26]they had done in the past.
[15:27]Or the general chit chat around the chatter around them
[15:31]in popular circles was, but she slept with a million,
[15:34]like whatever victim shaming and what have you.
[15:38]And it just seems so ridiculous to me,
[15:40]like how people contextualize other people's lives.
[15:46]And so I really felt strongly that I wanted you to see Alex
[15:51]have to defend her choices that had nothing to do
[15:55]with the trial she was a part of.
[15:57]And additionally, I felt really strongly
[15:59]that she needed to be super imperfect.
[16:01]Unfortunately, I keep getting the question
[16:03]about the unlikable protests, but I really like her.
[16:07]But I just think she's super imperfect.
[16:09]Like, she got caught up in the materialism
[16:12]and some of this that she says to her parents sometimes
[16:15]is admittedly things that I've sometimes thought,
[16:17]but I hope I don't say quite as abrasively as she does.
[16:20]And yeah, and she's just super imperfect,
[16:23]but I don't dislike her.
[16:25]And I hope my hope is that it can get people more comfortable
[16:28]when they see and hear transcripts from core reports
[16:32]or watch a trial on TV, but this is like a human
[16:36]who had all these decisions before and after,
[16:38]whatever they're being involved in court for
[16:42]and part of sifting through the truth is to not judge.
[16:46]I think, right?
[16:47]It doesn't make a crime any less punishable
[16:50]because the victim is unlikable as some people would say.
[16:53]So interesting.
[16:54]Well, so tell me about not using your real name.
[16:57]What's that about?
[16:58]No, I still work at a law firm.
[17:00]And I think that I wanted,
[17:04]I just didn't want the book.
[17:06]It has less to do with any sort of publicity
[17:08]that it does the fact similar to what I was just saying.
[17:11]So it's a great transition.
[17:13]I didn't want the book to be about me.
[17:15]I think it loses its value as soon as people start dismissing it
[17:20]as a true story because people will make assumptions about me
[17:25]and people will start to talk about what firm I'm involved in.
[17:30]And I think that my next statement might surprise people,
[17:34]I'm worried that it will curtail the honest conversation
[17:38]about the character and the protagonist
[17:39]and where she made mistakes.
[17:41]Like, I wonder if people are just so much more comfortable
[17:45]talking about faults of people who don't exist, right?
[17:49]I don't want it to be like some sort of value judgment
[17:53]on my life, first of all, it's fiction.
[17:56]But second of all, I think people are reluctant to say,
[17:58]God, Alex really made a mistake by doing X, Y, and Z.
[18:02]And like, where was she wrong?
[18:03]And where did she really mess up?
[18:05]And where was she not a friend of women?
[18:08]And where was she like an aggressor to her friends
[18:11]and things like that?
[18:13]And I think fiction is a really beautiful vehicle
[18:16]for doing that.
[18:18]And the fact that my life parallels her as in any capacity,
[18:21]I think makes people dismiss it as non-fiction.
[18:24]People love to do that.
[18:25]One unfortunate byproduct of fiction
[18:28]is that that's everyone's first assumption.
[18:31]Absolutely.
[18:32]I'm like, I don't want people to focus on what firms
[18:36]I've worked for.
[18:37]I want them to talk about class on fiction,
[18:39]the structure of class going fish and how it's messed up
[18:41]and how it works and how they miss the mark on how
[18:44]to promote diversity and has nothing
[18:46]to do with the firms they worked at.
[18:48]But I want people to talk about that
[18:50]rather than guessing where they are, right?
[18:53]I just think it's great if people can look at it
[18:56]as a work of fiction, because again, part of what I wrote
[18:58]is like, I see the way people talk
[19:00]when they think it's real.
[19:01]And it's not a productive conversation, right?
[19:04]So if no one's worried about offending anyone
[19:07]or victim blaming or doing whatever
[19:10]because these people and things don't exist,
[19:14]then I wonder where we'll get.
[19:15]Like how can you promote diversity?
[19:18]How could Derek's character have been kept around
[19:21]in his talent sort of, better utilize
[19:24]and how could he have been made more comfortable
[19:26]and all of that without wondering if Derek's
[19:28]going to get offended and whatever?
[19:31]I wrote this novel, which I will probably just keep
[19:34]in a drawer at this point, but I wrote this novel.
[19:37]And in it, I included like, and it was fiction.
[19:39]I made it up.
[19:40]Like I really did, but I showed it to my mother
[19:44]and she immediately assumed it was about my ex-husband
[19:47]and was like, she writes me back in all caps
[19:49]and was like, what a bastard!
[19:51]And I was like, what, no, it's fiction!
[19:54]I made it up.
[19:55]I made up things that were specifically
[19:57]not anything that happened because I made it up.
[20:00]So anyway, I don't know you just can't wait. Yeah, I think there was this period of like I want to say it took
[20:07]I'm super close with my family, and I think there was like I mean my sister is my best friend
[20:12]So I don't think she ever really like didn't believe that it was fiction, but there was this period where like I could feel my older brother
[20:21]And my parents just like everyone's in a while looking at me like mm-hmm. She do a ton of cocaine. It's like the partner
[20:30]Having dinner like I could feel it. Yeah, and I think they got over it
[20:34]I think my dad really worried about the assault being known and
[20:38]Never you know and ask me just like to confirm more than anyone else in my family that it was fiction
[20:45]And you know my agent who's like amazing just you know was said to me
[20:50]Everyone's gonna think this is you until you write your second book
[20:52]So you know in a way to get me motivated so the second book is totally different about halfway done with it
[20:58]And I hope maybe that shows people out from getting then you know the guessing game with me. Oh good. Well good strategy
[21:05]And isn't it's being made into a series or a movie or you have big news of some sort right
[21:11]So if I optioned as a movie by Netflix and I hope you're right and it's being made
[21:16]But I think things are a bit stalled in the industry right now the
[21:20]Descript is in the work so you know fingers and toes, but it has been optioned, but I don't know if it will be made
[21:26]I really hope it will and it sure film. That's awesome. Well. Yeah. I mean, that's the best first step. You got to you got to take that step
[21:35]I would love to see it on the screen. I think it'd be too cool. What advice would you have for aspiring authors?
[21:40]I mean not like I'm really any expert. Maybe I can give advice next
[21:44]I'm like my mom's I'm like when can you consider I think you should tell your mom that you and I spoke and you can officially call yourself an
[21:51]author now. I am holding this book
[21:54]and I
[21:57]Reddit and I am not your like I didn't know you and so they're that I think constitutes being an
[22:04]I think any advice I would give so this is not my advice that I think I've come up with by myself is
[22:11]And it's true for writing and it's true for life
[22:14]Which is don't be afraid to realize what's not working and shift gears
[22:18]I think that's a lesson that lots of determined women learn to lay and I told like I said
[22:23]I read that first draft which I thought was genius by the way while I was writing it
[22:28]And I just felt flat and I you know
[22:31]I thought about the hours. I thought about the vacation days. I took
[22:34]Right in and there was a like a small voice inside me
[22:37]That said should you just turn it in and see if anyone else likes it
[22:40]But if you're not
[22:42]If the real you is in a hundred percent satisfied with it no one else is going to buy it
[22:46]So don't be afraid to be your own toughest critic and shift gears and put in the hours and
[22:52]Just for the record. I don't think those hours are ever wasted because at least if you keep the same character
[22:58]Or even if you don't you learn so much about what you're writing like
[23:03]The person who I wrote about an inter-op as a fair was Alex Bowel and I want to say 10% of what I wrote made it into the final book
[23:11]But I learned so much about her by writing those chapters
[23:15]That I think it made her a stronger character in the end
[23:18]So my advice is don't be afraid to throw out what you've done
[23:21]It if it's not great and and be your own toughest critic the second piece of advice and editor at random house
[23:27]And a peter gathers who's amazing gave me which was don't write
[23:32]Immediately like have a thought let it marinade take a weekend away go for a walk
[23:38]Play it out in your mind let it sit for weeks even
[23:42]And then you know and then right which
[23:45]Was just I hadn't even occurred to me to sort of when I had a great thought not right
[23:49]Maybe jot it down
[23:50]But not sit down and start writing a paragraph form and I think it actually really helps you write a better novel
[23:57]Well Erica, thank you
[23:59]Congratulations and being an author
[24:01]Officially an author
[24:03]I'm really excited for you to have your book finally come out and yeah great job
[24:07]I'm so glad you like took the time to spend your vacation writing it because look at all the people you're gonna entertain
[24:13]It's pretty awesome time well spent
[24:15]Thank you for reading. No problem
[24:18]Okay, okay, thanks you too. Bye
[24:22]Thanks again for listening to my podcast moms don't have time to read books
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