Betsy Carter, LOST SOULS AT THE NEPTUNE INN
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[1:04]along with you. The interview I did with Betsy Carter was really special to me when I was growing up
[1:09]Betsy Carter was like the author that my parents knew and always referred me to, and she and I
[1:15]had this really nice relationship, and I always used to send her my writing, and she would be
[1:18]really encouraging, and it's just a total mentor to me. So it's just so great that this is all
[1:23]come full circle, and now I get to interview her for this podcast. So anyway, it's really our
[1:27]relationship is meant a lot to me, and it's an honor to get to interview her. Betsy is the author of
[1:33]many books, including the orange blossom special, and her book that just came out now lost souls
[1:38]at the Neptune Inn. I loved her memoir called Nothing to Fall Back on, which was a national bestseller.
[1:44]She was a contributing editor for, oh, the Oprah magazine wrote for Good Housekeeping,
[1:48]New York Magazine, and a million other publications. She was previously an editor at Esquire,
[1:54]Newsweek, and Harper's Bazaar, and was the founding editor of New York Woman. She currently lives
[2:00]in New York City. Welcome, Betsy. Thanks for coming on mom's don't have time to read books.
[2:04]Pleasure to be here, City. Sorry, we had to rerecord this a minute ago, because I forgot to press
[2:08]record. So I'm going to say again what I said a minute ago, which is that this is so exciting for me
[2:14]to be interviewing you because you have been like a lifelong mentor to me and have been the one
[2:20]that my parents sort of gave me as the shining example of what it meant to be an author, and you
[2:25]gave me hope that it could like be a profession and all the rest of it, and you helped me with
[2:30]all the stuff. I'd written my whole life and have just been like just so supportive of me and have
[2:36]meant so much. So I just wanted to say thank you and how great it is. And now I get to interview you
[2:40]here. I just want to say that you were somebody who was talented from a very young age, and I
[2:45]recognized that, and it was very exciting to watch you grow and look at what you become. It's really
[2:51]thank you. Well, why don't we start by talking about your latest novel Lost Souls of the Neptune
[2:56]in? Can you tell us in there's a little about what it's about? And then what inspired you to write
[3:00]it? Well, that's a good question. Okay, so what it's about is what people, what lengths people will
[3:07]go to to find a home? And in this book, there are several characters who've sort of been tossed out by
[3:13]their families or for some reason or another left home, and there are several lost souls who come
[3:19]together, find each other, and even in extreme situations, and even though it doesn't seem
[3:25]a perfect fit, they get together because they cling to each other for a home. And it takes place,
[3:30]it's well, gosh, it ranges from the 20s to the 80s. And my two main characters, one of them has
[3:36]a child out of wedlock and is really kind of almost disowned by her parents. And another one,
[3:42]she lives in New Rochelle, New York. And the other main character is a southern lovely man who has had
[3:48]a very difficult childhood. He has been different from everybody else. And he makes his way to the
[3:55]north after kind of a horrible situation, something traumatic and horrible happens to each other,
[4:00]to him. And they find each other. And he falls in love basically with our main character's daughter,
[4:06]her name is Alice. He falls in love with her and decides that this could be his home. And even
[4:11]though it's not a perfect fit, they get together and they get married. And it's really kind of the
[4:16]story of the evolution of that kind of relationship, making a family where it really is none. And what
[4:22]happens, even when it threatens to fall apart, does the family stick together or does the family,
[4:28]you know, go to pieces. But that's really a short form.
[4:32]And how did you come up with this idea? You've written many novels and an amazing memoir.
[4:37]Why this topic and why now? Okay, two reasons. Okay, the first reason is that the female character,
[4:44]Amelia May, is born and is a colicky baby. And for some reason, her mother, who is Catholic,
[4:51]decides that she is the devil's child. And this came about and this was really the impetus to write
[4:57]the book several years ago. And if you bring up the memoir, it'll come out then. I went through a
[5:01]really bad state of luck. And I was seeing a therapist at the time. And I walked in one day after
[5:08]many calamities had befallen me. And I said, oh my God, my house burned down. And everything in it,
[5:14]you know, all my all my possessions are gone. And she said to me, I want you to consider this.
[5:19]I want you to consider that you are a very bad person in a past life. And that you should find
[5:26]an exorcist in New York. You should have an exorcism. So I started out wanting to write about a
[5:31]person who is inhabited by the devil and needs to find an exorcist. And I kept writing and then
[5:38]I realized I was writing the exorcist again. And that really nobody needed to read that again.
[5:42]And so I threw it off a bit. And then the other impetus, frankly, was that I was married to
[5:48]a very lovely man for 17 years. And after 17 years, he decided, or maybe he knew all along,
[5:56]that he was gay. And it ended the marriage. And for me, it was quite shocking. I did not see it
[6:00]coming. We have remained friends. In fact, he, you know, he's, he were very close friends. But it
[6:06]was very shocking and surprising event in my life. And I realized as time went on that when we
[6:12]were growing up, it was very hard to be gay. And he yearned for a normal life. And I was kind
[6:20]a normal person he could hang on to. And I think he saw in me a normal life. And so one of my
[6:25]characters is not him, but is based on a character that is dealing with the same issues.
[6:30]So it was a combination of the exorcism and the gay husband that brought me to this novel, if that
[6:36]makes sense. It makes sense. Who knew what interesting ingredients to throw it together, right?
[6:41]And this is how great fiction comes to me. Yes, what you have, right? Yeah.
[6:46]Wait, back up again to the therapist telling you you needed an exorcist. How did you respond to that?
[6:52]Did you go get an exorcist? Did you fire your therapist? Did you think it was a great idea? Like,
[6:56]how did you do that? That's also an interesting question. I stared at her and I said,
[7:01]and I was really upset. I mean, you can imagine. I said, you know what, I'm going to pretend
[7:07]you never said that. And we're just going to move on. And then I never came back. But then shortly
[7:12]after that, I got diagnosed with breast cancer. And I saw another shrink. And I kept saying to her,
[7:18]you've got to find me an exorcist. You have got to find this. I really do have to have an exorcism.
[7:23]Finally, after I had a mastectomy and I was going through treatment, I realized that was the
[7:29]exorcism and I was done with the exorcist part. But the poor therapist said to me,
[7:34]I've never, I've never had to handle a situation like that. I had no idea what to say to you. But
[7:39]it went on and on and on about me needing an exorcist. So I know what it feels to feel inhabited
[7:45]by the devil and search your life and think, what do I, what must have I done in a past life
[7:50]to deserve this? I hate that that happened to you because it puts the blame on you for all these
[7:56]things that were out of your control. Like, that's like the worst thing. Like that it's something
[8:01]you did in a past life. I feel like that like you couldn't think of something worse to say than
[8:07]than that. And when someone's gone through like a series of horrific things, like maybe we should
[8:12]just back up again and talk about the memoir and all the things. Like what was like the list of the
[8:18]key traumas, all of that you went through. If you don't mind just reliving all of the awful stuff
[8:24]in your past. Nobody tells me that they've read the memoir or they're going to read the
[8:27]memoir. I just apologize right away. I loved the memoir. Now I'm blanking on the name of course.
[8:32]Now that we're talking about that one. Nothing to fall back on. It was so good. It was so good.
[8:37]It just was a series of very bad luck. Let's see. I had a terrible car accident where I got
[8:42]all my teeth were knocked out and my upper and lower jaw were broken. I had to have a hysterectomy
[8:48]at a young age. My house burned down. My husband was gay. I got breast cancer. I'm the, oh,
[8:54]my mother died. It was all, but all, it was all of a piece. You know, it was all in a very short
[8:59]amount of time. So when I wrote the memoir, it was really in a way to exercise all that too.
[9:07]So as exorcism has been a part of my life for a long time.
[9:11]So do you feel like the combination of the physical exorcism of the breast cancer plus the memoir?
[9:17]Did the track completely? Yes. Pretty much. I mean, I still have some residue
[9:23]bad dreams and stuff like that. But yes, it was, it really was helpful to do that.
[9:28]And I also, I wrote the memoir knowing I wanted to write fiction and I thought, man,
[9:33]if you don't write that first, those things and those characters will keep reappearing.
[9:38]And so I wrote the memoir to get rid of, I mean, not to get rid of my wonderful mother,
[9:42]but I knew she would show up in every book. And I knew there'd be fire in every book.
[9:46]There was only fire in one memoir, having, I mean, in one novel. And these things really
[9:50]haven't shown up again in those characters. I was really able to put my family and friend
[9:55]characters to rest in the memoir. And what would it, what would the heart
[10:00]from have been and including those themes.
[10:02]Oh, I just have to relive them.
[10:03]And who wants to read a novel about a person getting
[10:05]her teeth locked out?
[10:06]I mean, there've been hints that people
[10:08]have gotten a tooth knocked out,
[10:09]but I didn't go for the whole shabang for too much.
[10:12]I get it.
[10:13]But it's so interesting, because I
[10:14]feel like a lot of authors reflect back on their work
[10:17]and think, oh, huh, looks like I was working at XYZ issue,
[10:20]but they don't even know it at the time.
[10:22]And you were able to see all the way into the future
[10:25]that that's what you would think and then stop it
[10:28]from the beginning.
[10:29]It's really interesting to know that that would happen,
[10:31]but it is what happened.
[10:33]And the thing about the memoir is I really
[10:35]had to do research into, like I had to look at my dental records.
[10:39]And I had to understand all my medical problems.
[10:42]And I had not done that while I was going through it.
[10:45]So in a way, it was like a cleansing
[10:46]in that, you know, and to know what I had to know.
[10:49]So then when you approach fiction,
[10:51]and you tell yourself that you're not
[10:52]going to include any of the exact stuff in the past at all
[10:55]and that you have a blank slate, what's the goal?
[10:58]Like, what do you get the most out of writing fiction?
[11:01]Is it just the joy of the writing?
[11:03]Or if you're not like, what does it do for you?
[11:07]I think what I do like the writing of it.
[11:09]I'm publishing of it.
[11:10]Yeah, not so much.
[11:11]But the writing of it, I like a lot.
[11:13]And I, you know, I, it's some stupid to say,
[11:16]but I'm terrible in therapy.
[11:17]I mean, if I were seeing a therapist now,
[11:19]I would say, I spoke to Zibi this morning.
[11:22]It was really interesting.
[11:23]I don't dig as deep as I should.
[11:26]But when I write, I do dig deep.
[11:29]Even if it's about another character,
[11:30]I have to deal with, well, how do you feel about religion
[11:33]or how do you feel about betrayal?
[11:36]And it's things that I don't seem to be able to get to
[11:39]other than your writing.
[11:40]Interesting.
[11:41]Well, I'm going to argue that maybe you
[11:43]haven't been saying the right therapist because I know
[11:47]that one of them was totally wrong.
[11:48]So I'm kind of questioning your taste in therapist,
[11:50]but it's OK.
[11:51]You keep writing, and then everybody gets to know
[11:54]that I don't think therapists that have really
[11:56]done very well for me.
[11:57]OK, not to say that you don't seem totally together now.
[12:01]Obviously, Penner's own is great.
[12:03]Now that came out wrong.
[12:04]Oh, I'm just saying.
[12:06]Oh, my goodness.
[12:06]Well, anyway, so take me through writing this book
[12:10]and how, and contrast it maybe with some of your earlier
[12:12]works of fiction.
[12:14]How did it just flow out of you?
[12:16]Do you outline it all ahead of time?
[12:18]Like, what's the process like and has it changed over time?
[12:21]Yes.
[12:22]Actually, it's a great question.
[12:23]I always start with the character in my head.
[12:25]I mean, while I was writing this one,
[12:29]I also had a character in my mind for the next one.
[12:31]I have no idea where this character will go,
[12:33]but I know the character.
[12:34]And so with Moss Souls at the Neptune in,
[12:37]I had a character in mind.
[12:39]I had two characters pretty much.
[12:41]The mother, who's not my mother, the mother,
[12:43]whose things her daughter isn't having to buy the devil.
[12:46]And the man who turns out to be gay, Dillard,
[12:50]I had those two characters in mind.
[12:51]And for the first time ever,
[12:53]I actually outlined this one.
[12:55]I'd never done that before.
[12:56]I usually just write and think, oh, well,
[12:58]maybe I'll go this way, maybe I'll go that way.
[13:00]And my agent had been urging me to try outlining.
[13:04]She said, it would be much easier for you
[13:05]and easier for, you know, just to write.
[13:08]And it was.
[13:08]It was a much easier book to write.
[13:10]Not everything that I thought was going to happen happened,
[13:12]but pretty much it did.
[13:14]And I pretty much knew where it was going to end,
[13:16]which I never know where anything's going to end.
[13:19]So I'm trying to do that with the one I'm working on now too.
[13:22]But I've never done that before.
[13:24]I just start with my characters.
[13:26]And people say, oh, your characters must tell you where to go.
[13:29]You know, there's some sort of magical thinking
[13:31]about fiction writing.
[13:32]And the fact is, I come from a reporting journalism background.
[13:36]And for me, it's always like, I interview my characters.
[13:40]You know, I interview them and I think, okay.
[13:42]So you're having this reaction.
[13:44]Why are you reacting so strongly?
[13:46]Or she said that to you.
[13:47]What are you going to say back?
[13:48]And it's very much to me like a reporting.
[13:51]And that's how I get to know them.
[13:53]You know, I get to know what are they wearing.
[13:55]When I worked for Newsweek, I started as a researcher.
[13:58]And researchers at the time had to file for the writer.
[14:03]So I would have to interview you.
[14:04]And I would have to describe what you look like
[14:07]and what you sounded like.
[14:08]And so I think that fit into the reporting
[14:11]that I do in my head for these characters.
[14:15]And then, of course, you went on and ended up
[14:16]like running entire magazines
[14:18]and doing being a real leader in that industry.
[14:21]You know, I had to assign stories and, you know,
[14:23]think of the questions to ask.
[14:25]So it was always that, yes, it was always that process.
[14:28]And how do you, how just, this is like,
[14:30]not even related to the book,
[14:31]but having seen all of that with the magazine world
[14:34]and where we are today, you think there's any hope
[14:38]in magazines or what do you think?
[14:40]I mean, I feel so lucky to have been where I was when I was.
[14:44]I think social media actually might just take another term.
[14:48]We're seeing a lot of magazines online,
[14:50]but I don't know.
[14:51]I still think that there could be a comeback.
[14:54]I think they would be very different.
[14:56]I don't even know if they'd be in paper,
[14:57]but I think the first to understand something in depth
[15:01]or to see pictures of people you don't know,
[15:04]I don't think that goes away.
[15:05]And I don't think social media can do it
[15:08]in the way that magazines can do it.
[15:10]I don't think it's something you curl up in bed
[15:12]with, you know, at 11 o'clock at night
[15:14]and just you and the pages and turning the pages
[15:17]and reading the text.
[15:18]I just think, okay, it's like,
[15:20]I don't know, do you read books on your iPad
[15:22]or do you read books on books?
[15:23]It's so funny to say that
[15:25]because I got in bed to finish your book last night
[15:27]with my laptop, which I hate doing,
[15:29]but I didn't have, you know, with this time,
[15:32]not everybody's been able to get, like,
[15:34]physical advanced copies.
[15:35]So I've, in the last couple of months,
[15:37]but have read more on devices than in my entire life.
[15:40]Like, cannot wait to just chuck them.
[15:44]I like real books so much more,
[15:45]that it's easier for me to think and process
[15:47]and fold down the pages and go back and forth.
[15:50]I don't know, I'm so much,
[15:52]I mean, I know, maybe it's just a generational thing,
[15:55]but I'm so used to books and magazines
[15:58]and I love the weight of them and the smell of them.
[16:00]I can tell you a book by its smell sometimes.
[16:03]And yeah, I mean, magazines,
[16:04]it's just there's something about taking them with you
[16:07]as you're getting your hair cut or taking, you know,
[16:09]having them on the subway that is just different.
[16:12]And I don't think that would go away completely.
[16:15]I agree.
[16:16]I remember I picked up InStyle,
[16:17]which I happened to get, like,
[16:18]when I was getting batteries or something.
[16:20]And it was literally like this thing.
[16:21]I mean, it was like a centimeter.
[16:24]And I was like, I felt like InStyle used to be like
[16:26]the thickest doorstop, you know?
[16:28]And now it's just like this little sliver,
[16:29]like a pamphlet or something.
[16:31]Anyway, very sad.
[16:32]But anyway, back to the book.
[16:34]When you were talking about outlining
[16:35]and how you did it for this book
[16:36]and how you're doing it for the next book,
[16:38]I wanted to get like maybe a little sneak peek
[16:40]at what the next book is going to be about.
[16:42]No?
[16:43]Okay, you don't have to.
[16:44]You know, I'm so just starting it.
[16:46]So you don't have to.
[16:50]Giving up a child and what does it mean
[16:52]to give up a child and how do you do that?
[16:55]And how do you go on with the rest of your life
[16:56]after you've done that?
[16:57]And that's a really broad stroke.
[16:59]But there's something that made me think about that
[17:01]and I've been wondering about that.
[17:04]Wow, that's intense.
[17:05]You have a lot about motherhood
[17:07]and especially in this book and the ambivalence
[17:09]that comes in motherhood.
[17:10]And, you know, I'm going to get the names wrong.
[17:13]I can't keep any of the characters name straight.
[17:15]Thank you.
[17:16]And this is the other problem with not having actual books
[17:19]is that if I had it next to me,
[17:20]I could flip it open, but instead it's like a document.
[17:23]And so I can't even refer back.
[17:26]But anyway, in the beginning,
[17:28]Geraldine is the mother.
[17:29]Geraldine is so resentful of her daughter
[17:33]for taking away basically her beauty
[17:34]and the Jana Seikwa that she kind of has with men
[17:37]and the potential of her life.
[17:39]And she talks about how she doesn't really like her daughter
[17:43]and her husband is sort of appalled by this.
[17:46]And she just says over and over, you know,
[17:48]like get, you know, get out.
[17:49]And then I couldn't believe when the opportunity came
[17:52]that she was like, oh, this is great.
[17:54]My daughter should work at this end.
[17:55]Like goodbye age 15, you know, we don't need you anymore.
[17:58]I mean, now I feel, I did send my son to boarding school.
[18:01]So maybe it's, I hope I don't fall in that bucket in any way.
[18:05]But I don't think she was doing it
[18:06]because it would better for the daughter.
[18:07]She was like, and she even said,
[18:09]like wouldn't the house be so much better
[18:11]without our daughter in the husband's like,
[18:12]what, you know, that hasn't been better
[18:14]if you weren't angry all the time.
[18:16]Tell me about like that aspect of it.
[18:18]And this whole like maybe having a kid is just not the best thing.
[18:23]Bye.
[18:24]Well, first of all, you should know, I've never had children.
[18:26]So I think my fascination with motherhood
[18:29]and all of these books is what would it be like if,
[18:32]and in this case, it would be like,
[18:34]geez, what if you had a kid, you didn't like it?
[18:37]You know, and this, she starts, she has the kid early.
[18:40]She's young, she's very young and beautiful.
[18:42]I thought, I've known young, beautiful women to have children.
[18:46]And I wonder how that feels.
[18:48]And I wonder if it feels like an intrusion
[18:50]on their sexuality and their view of their beautiful selves.
[18:55]So in every, I think in every book I've done,
[18:58]there's been a different version of a mother
[19:00]that I wonder about because I've never done it.
[19:03]So yes, I think that's an astute observation.
[19:07]Especially now, if your next book is about losing it,
[19:10]it's like having a lose a child.
[19:12]Oh my gosh, anyway, it's interesting, though,
[19:14]to write about something over and over
[19:17]that did not happen, right?
[19:18]I feel like in talking about themes
[19:21]that you are trying to avoid.
[19:22]Now you've fallen into writing about the thing
[19:26]that didn't happen.
[19:27]I wonder why, like what is it about?
[19:29]That's one of the beauties of writing.
[19:31]It's one of the things I love about writing
[19:33]because I'm so curious about many things.
[19:36]And this, particularly this last book,
[19:38]Lost Souls, really had none of them up
[19:40]pretty much none of me in it.
[19:41]And it's great to, it's why I love journalism
[19:45]because you get taken to places
[19:47]that you've never been or to experiences
[19:49]you've never experienced and you get to sort of wallow in them
[19:52]and see what it's like.
[19:53]And I guess it's like being a lawyer.
[19:55]And I think I've always been intellectually a lawyer.
[19:58]That's why I was drawn to journalism.
[20:00]There was some in the first place.
[20:01]The book I wrote before, this one was called,
[20:03]we were strangers once and it was about the whole
[20:05]immigrant experience and I am the child of immigrants
[20:08]and my parents were German Jews and they never really
[20:11]would talk to me about their experience.
[20:13]And so they're both gone now unfortunately.
[20:16]And I wrote that book putting myself in their heads
[20:19]and trying to relive what that was like
[20:22]because I was curious.
[20:23]So it's the best I can do sometimes
[20:26]when I wanna know something and I wanna figure something out.
[20:29]It's the best I can do is try to write about it.
[20:32]And did for that book,
[20:33]did you go through records and history
[20:35]and documents and all that too?
[20:36]So much and I read everything and I found papers
[20:40]of my parents that I'd cleaned out
[20:41]and I really, I really, really tried to recreate them.
[20:45]I mean the characters in there are not them
[20:47]but there are many different,
[20:49]there are about seven different characters
[20:51]and they are each one probably has an aspect of them.
[20:54]And in the book before that,
[20:55]I also dealt with immigrant situation
[20:58]and I found a photograph of the synagogue
[21:01]that had been burned down in Germany
[21:02]where my parents were married
[21:04]and it just forced me to write a whole wedding scene
[21:06]that I was able to project them into.
[21:08]So it's a great way to get at stuff.
[21:11]You can't get it any other way for me.
[21:14]Wow, that's amazing, the power of writing.
[21:16]And did those sort of underlying issues to bed for you too?
[21:21]Like, did you wrestle with their inability
[21:23]to talk about what happened?
[21:24]And then this was the answer,
[21:26]not to be so formulaic,
[21:27]well that's a good question.
[21:29]In my father was always very angry.
[21:31]He was an angry fellow
[21:33]and he was angry with me
[21:34]because he felt that I never really understood
[21:36]what they'd been through.
[21:37]And in a way he was right
[21:39]because I really tried very hard
[21:41]to be an American girl and to move beyond that.
[21:44]And it was only after they died
[21:45]that I really delved into it.
[21:47]So yeah, I think it was helpful for me
[21:51]and it answered those questions, you know.
[21:55]It's hard to, I wrote a whole paper in college
[21:57]about being like the child of Holocaust survivors
[22:00]and like the whole rim of effects
[22:02]that the children inherit when they have a parent
[22:05]who can't buy nature of what's happened to them
[22:07]be as fully accessible as other parents.
[22:10]And it's just wild to...
[22:11]Yes, and I'm sure you could never,
[22:14]I mean, I felt that I got as close as I could get to it
[22:16]but I'm sure I didn't get to the heart,
[22:19]you know, absolute heart of it
[22:20]because I could, but I tried.
[22:23]Wow.
[22:24]Where do you like to write?
[22:25]Are you seem to be in like living room?
[22:26]I don't know how you write it home or...
[22:28]In New York City and there's a wonderful library,
[22:31]you probably know it, that's New York Society library
[22:34]on 79th Street and they have on the top floors
[22:37]of writers' room.
[22:38]And I had this beautiful schedule worked out
[22:41]before all this happened.
[22:42]Usually I'd like go to the 90 second street riots,
[22:45]swim or take a class and work out some of my anxiety
[22:48]which is, you know, impressive.
[22:50]And then I would go and sit at the library,
[22:52]you sit at just lawn tables
[22:53]and you plug in your computer
[22:55]and nobody really can't talk in there,
[22:58]you can't do anything but write.
[22:59]And it's a very, for me, it was a wonderful place
[23:02]because you have the illusion that there are people around,
[23:05]even if they're not talking to you.
[23:06]But you also think, I can't spend too much time on eBay
[23:10]because they'll notice, you know?
[23:11]I don't think anybody was looking at what I was writing
[23:14]but it was really kept me kind of focused.
[23:16]And I'd spend most of the day there writing.
[23:18]Now that the whole pandemic thing has happened,
[23:21]I'm writing at home, I'm sitting at the desk where I write.
[23:23]And it's perfectly nice except that I have a dog
[23:26]and I have a husband and sometimes they communicate with me.
[23:31]So that kind of breaks things up
[23:33]but I'm happy writing at home too.
[23:34]It's lovely here to be here.
[23:37]And you mentioned quickly that while you love writing
[23:40]that the publishing, you don't love quite as much,
[23:42]what's the major hang-up in the publishing world
[23:45]or what is it you really objectored?
[23:48]Oh, it's just, you never feel you're doing enough
[23:50]or even if your numbers are good, they're never good enough.
[23:54]It's just the self-beating-up part
[23:56]that I seem to think part of it.
[23:59]So I've gotten very good at not reading.
[24:02]I don't read numbers and I have my husband read reviews
[24:05]usually before I do.
[24:06]So I can't get my feelings hurt like that.
[24:10]No, do you have any advice to aspiring authors
[24:14]aside from having their husbands read their reviews?
[24:16]Oh, yeah.
[24:17]Actually, keep at it.
[24:19]I think that it's just, it's like a sport.
[24:21]It's like anything.
[24:22]You know, just keep at it, right, every day.
[24:25]And even if you cross it out.
[24:27]And one of the things that helps me very much
[24:30]is when I write, and I'm particularly
[24:32]now like when I'm starting something,
[24:33]I think just write whatever you want to write.
[24:35]No one's ever going to see this.
[24:36]I never think that I just, I really believe
[24:39]that no one will see it until I'm ready to show it.
[24:41]So just keep writing and don't be judging
[24:45]what other people are going to say
[24:46]because chances are what you're writing right now,
[24:48]they're never going to see anyway.
[24:50]So just keep at it and do it for yourself
[24:52]and really write from the heart.
[24:54]And I know people who write thinking,
[24:56]what's commercial?
[24:57]What will sell?
[24:58]I've never been able to do that.
[25:00]Maybe that works for a lot of people, a lot of people.
[25:02]But really write from your own, either your experience
[25:05]or your questions or your longings or whatever.
[25:08]Just just be true to yourself on that.
[25:11]That's what I think.
[25:12]Love him.
[25:13]Well, thank you.
[25:14]Thanks for coming on, Mom.
[25:15]So I have time to read books.
[25:16]Thanks for helping me for years, decades now,
[25:19]being somebody that I've just always looked up to.
[25:22]And it's just so great to have another book come out by you
[25:26]and to be able to be a tiny piece of your publicity tour
[25:29]and all the rest.
[25:30]Well, thank you.
[25:31]It's good to see you and talk with you.
[25:33]You're doing great.
[25:34]You're doing great work.
[25:35]Congratulations.
[25:36]Thank you.
[25:37]Thanks.
[25:37]All right, have a great day.
[25:39]Thank you.
[25:40]OK, bye.
[25:42]Thanks again for listening to my podcast.
[25:44]Mom's don't have time to read books.
[25:46]If you liked this episode, please follow me on Instagram
[25:49]at zivioens and at mom's don't have time to read books
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[25:56]So you can always hear about the latest things I'm up to.
[25:58]Thanks a lot.
[25:59]Thanks so much to Rockets of awesome for giving us
[26:01]a discount of 20% off your four times a year boxes,
[26:05]rocketsofawesome.com slash books and discount code books.
[26:09]Thanks so much to Steve and Ryan at Texture Sound
[26:12]for the sound editing.
[26:13]And thank you to Morning Moon Productions
[26:15]for providing this fantastic intro and now trim music.
[26:18]Thanks for listening.
[26:19]You can always email me at zivioens.com.