Renée Watson, WAYS TO MAKE SUNSHINE
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[1:49]Renee Watson is the New York Times best-selling author, educator, and activist. Her young adult
[1:55]novel, piecing me together, received a Coretta Scott King Award, and a new berry honor. Her children's
[2:00]picture books and novels for teens have received several awards and international recognition.
[2:05]She's given lots of readings and lectures, like places like the UN, the Library of Congress,
[2:10]if you've heard of any of those. Her books include Young Adult Novels, like This Side of Home,
[2:14]which was nominated for the Best Fiction for Young Adults by the American Library Association,
[2:19]and watch us rise, COVID, and with Ellen Hagen. Her picture book, Harlem's Little Blackbird,
[2:24]the story of Florence Mills received several honors, including an NAACP Image Award nomination
[2:29]in Children's Literature. Her most recent book is called Ways to Make Sunshine. Renee grew
[2:34]up in Portland, Oregon, and now lives in New York City. Welcome Renee. Thanks so much for
[2:38]coming on moms down. Have time to read books. Thanks for having me. I loved your most recent
[2:44]book and I was feeling the pain of the girl who is under the water with her hair getting like
[2:50]totally disheveled with red, her nemesis in the book, and just feeling like I feel like every
[2:56]child has been in a situation where they have to do something they don't want to do, and it goes
[3:00]against everything their family believes in, and they believe it, and everything to like fit in.
[3:05]Anyway, I feel like I'm like right in that moment in your book, and I just said like,
[3:10]can't wait to talk to you about this. Yeah, Ryan is the character you're mentioning. She
[3:17]is trying to figure out, how do I stay a leader no matter where I am? How do I hold onto my values
[3:24]and show up in the way that my parents expect me to show up in the world, and sometimes she gets
[3:29]right, and sometimes not so much. She can be jealous and competitive. So in that scene,
[3:36]you know, she's really trying to prove that she is Amanda's best friend, and that is like what
[3:42]gets her, her competitive nature, and her feeling a little insecure about this new girl red coming
[3:49]into the friendship group. She's like, nope, I gotta like protect my friend in my spot,
[3:55]and you're not gonna take her away from me. So yeah, I like Ryan as a character. She was
[3:59]fun to write because she's flawed. You know, she's not this perfect girl who always makes the right
[4:04]decisions and does everything correctly. She's figuring it out, and she messes up along the way.
[4:10]I love how her name is really, what is it, lion or leader or something where every time she goes
[4:14]into a situation, she's reminded that she was named to be a leader and like has to carry that
[4:19]sense of sort of groggy toss into everything from the school room to inflated to whatever.
[4:23]Yeah, Ryan means king. King, sorry, there we go. See, I got a lion, I got a king of the jungle.
[4:31]Parents are always telling her, be who we named you to be. So yeah,
[4:35]they're telling her be a leader, be thoughtful, be respectful, be kind. And so she's,
[4:39]you know, she's in the fourth grade. So sometimes it's really hard to be all of those things.
[4:45]So she's figuring it out. So how do you do this? You've written so many books at this point,
[4:49]including a new very word winning novel and middle grade. And you also just, you're doing the
[4:54]Oprah Winfrey new leaders, which is so amazing. I'm really excited about that.
[4:59]Yeah, wait, let me take this one at a time. I'm like rambling here. Okay.
[5:02]I wanted to know how you came up with the idea for this, your most recent book,
[5:06]but then I wanted to talk about the Oprah Winfrey book and all the other amazing things you do.
[5:10]So tell me with this book, we were just talking about with Ryan and everything.
[5:14]How did you come up with this plot? What made you and how do you come up with all your plots really?
[5:19]So ways to make sunshine is the book that just came out in April. And I wanted to write,
[5:26]I have been writing books that really tackle social issues and really think about,
[5:31]you know, young girls finding their voices to speak out against injustice or
[5:37]and say who they are and name their own identities. So I needed to as a writer do something that
[5:43]wasn't as serious or as, you know, social justice warrior girl. So I was thinking of what is,
[5:51]how can I explore just a girl who is having fun in her neighborhood, writing her bike,
[5:58]racing the boys, figuring out that she is strong and how she can be brave and what her talents are.
[6:05]You know, so I just wanted to play around with black joy and just the fun part of being a child
[6:12]and focus on that. So I was thinking about, well, how could this take shape and, you know,
[6:18]what's the plot? And I really loved the Ramona series growing up. I've read all of Beverly Cleary's
[6:24]books and Beverly Cleary, you know, she's from Oregon and Ramona lived in Portland. So I wanted to
[6:32]write a story in that vein about a black girl who lives in Portland and is in Rem Butches and
[6:39]makes up concoctions in the kitchen and experiments when she's cooking with her mom. So it was kind
[6:44]of an old to Ramona and old to Beverly Cleary. I remember what it felt like to see streets that I
[6:52]recognized on the page in a book was so old to me as a kid to be like, I know that park. I know
[6:59]that street and my aunt lived near a click of that street. And so I always would joke that,
[7:04]you know, Ramona was my aunt's friend. And you know, so anyway, I just wanted to give that to
[7:10]black kids in Portland and then, you know, kids and all children to have a book that has some joy
[7:16]in it. And it just so happened to come out at a time when I think we all kind of need a little bit
[7:22]of sunshine and a little bit of joy in our lives. And so I've been having conversations with young
[7:27]people about that. How do you make sunshine? How do you use Ryan as kind of an example? Like
[7:33]things are not the way we want them to be right now. And there is some sadness and there's some
[7:37]very real pain happening. But where is the good and how can we do good and not just complain
[7:45]about what's going on? So yeah, that's ways to make sunshine. And I'm super excited that it's out
[7:51]in the world. It's the first book of a series. So I'm also working on book two right now.
[7:56]Awesome. I did not know the click and tap street or whatever it was. I did not know that was a real
[8:00]place until you said that right now. And I have read all those books. Obviously, I grew up with
[8:06]them all, Ramona and Jesus and all the rest. And I started reading them to my kids, all those,
[8:10]for whatever reason, they weren't as into them as I was. I was like, aren't they amazing? And they're
[8:13]like, whatever. Where's like, what? Anyway, I have a rather than years yet. I kept those for myself.
[8:18]But yeah, I just didn't even know that was real place. So thank you for that.
[8:21]Yeah, I feel like Ryan also, I mean, her family's going through so many transitions, right? You
[8:28]have her family moving in the very beginning. And her father has been working for the post office.
[8:33]And then he has to leave that job and get a night job and new area. And they have to like, make
[8:39]it seem like a palatable, fun move as parents try to do about everything for their kids. And then
[8:45]really like, you know, they get there and Ryan's like, what is this house? Like, I don't think so.
[8:50]And then you have her sort of get into it and like pull out the the steps,
[8:54]that she finds and realize, you know what? In any house, I can be whoever I am. It's not about
[8:58]where I live. It's about my family. And that's so true. I feel like right now, everybody feels like
[9:02]so displaced or just like their regular lives are completely disrupted. Like Ryan's was and you have
[9:07]to figure out what's important, which is really like family who you are. So I feel like it's such
[9:11]a timely message. Thank you. Yeah, you know, change is really hard. It's hard for adults.
[9:17]So let alone a young person who doesn't have a lot of power to make decisions or, you know,
[9:23]really do the things that they might want to do. So I was, I wanted to think about how does a
[9:30]young person deal with a changing world and things that are out of their control. So like you
[9:34]mentioned, her father loses the job. They have to downsize. They lose one of their cars. They,
[9:40]it changes the family dynamic. He's the one who normally takes him to school that can't
[9:45]happen anymore. You know, all these things that from a child's perspective feels so big and so
[9:52]life changing. And I think sometimes adults rightfully so. I mean, you know, we have to think of
[9:57]the big picture, bills and off.
[10:00]the other kinds of things that parents are thinking about.
[10:03]And so I feel like it's my responsibility
[10:06]as a writer who writes books for young people
[10:08]is to put them at the center
[10:10]and think about their feelings and emotions
[10:12]while the adults are having to deal with the big picture stuff
[10:15]for a little girl, having to move.
[10:18]She's worried about this new creepy room
[10:21]that she's never slept in
[10:23]and that she need a night light or not.
[10:25]You know, worrying about is she gonna still be able
[10:27]to be as close to her friends as she used to be.
[10:31]And those are big deal.
[10:32]That's a big deal, I think,
[10:34]when you're in the fourth grade.
[10:36]You know, friendship dynamics and all of that.
[10:38]So yeah, the book is a lot about change
[10:41]and coping with change.
[10:43]When she found the box that the previous sort of tenant
[10:46]in the house had like up on the shelf,
[10:47]I was like, don't open it!
[10:49]No, don't open it!
[10:51]But she wasn't listening to me.
[10:52]Anyway, whatever.
[10:54]So why do this?
[10:55]Why do this sort of gift to middle grade readers?
[10:58]Why you?
[10:59]Why have you dedicated your life to this?
[11:01]Like, tell me about that.
[11:03]Hi, you know, I've just always loved words.
[11:05]I've always loved stories.
[11:06]When I was a young person,
[11:08]I always say like, I found some of my best friends
[11:10]were in books, you know.
[11:12]I read Judy Blum books.
[11:13]I read, so like, are you there?
[11:15]God, it's me Margaret.
[11:16]I read a lot of poetry and felt very seen
[11:19]and validated in the lines of poems.
[11:23]And so I think for me,
[11:25]I want young people to feel seen and validated
[11:29]when they're reading my work.
[11:30]And I want them to be able to relate to characters.
[11:32]I think we were talking a moment ago
[11:34]about adults are having very adult conversations.
[11:38]But young people need to be having those conversations too, right?
[11:42]Just on a kid level.
[11:44]And so there's so much happening in the world right now.
[11:47]I want my books to help young people process
[11:50]what is going on.
[11:51]So some of my other books, you know,
[11:54]really explicitly deal with race and class
[11:57]and the intersections of race, class, and gender.
[12:01]And how do we, you know, for a teenager
[12:03]who is definitely seeing what's happening
[12:06]and wants to talk about it and wants to get involved,
[12:09]not just talk about it, but like do something.
[12:12]And I see literature as a way, as one of the ways
[12:15]that we can engage young people in conversations.
[12:19]It's a safe space because you can talk about the characters.
[12:21]You don't have to kind of reveal your stuff yet.
[12:25]And so yeah, I think I've dedicated my life to that
[12:28]because I had that as a child.
[12:31]I had teachers and of course my mother
[12:33]who gave me books and gave me journals
[12:37]and told me to write my story and always were asking me,
[12:40]what do you have to say?
[12:41]What do you think about what's going on?
[12:44]And so I don't know any other way to be.
[12:45]I feel like it just kind of feels like a calling
[12:49]like a second nature to me is to process things through art
[12:53]and art making.
[12:54]And so for me, my art form is the written word.
[12:58]And I love how on Instagram you posted
[13:00]when you were on the bestseller list on Mother's Day,
[13:02]how you said something like to your mom
[13:04]that like, you know, all those books you gave you
[13:06]and could you two have imagined that after all that
[13:09]look where you would be on Mother's Day, that's so amazing.
[13:12]It was so, I couldn't have planned that better, right?
[13:16]If I come out on Mother's Day and be in the paper,
[13:20]was the beautiful review was so...
[13:22]Oh, that's what it was, it was, yeah.
[13:23]Oh, sorry, yes.
[13:25]I'm so thorough and I loved that.
[13:27]And yeah, I was sharing that my mother read,
[13:30]I mean, she let well I read to her
[13:32]while she was cooking or doing, you know,
[13:34]the busy things that she needed to get done.
[13:36]I was always like, I have a new story that I wrote.
[13:39]Can I read it to you?
[13:40]I have a poem that I wrote.
[13:41]Can I read it to you?
[13:41]We'd be in the car.
[13:42]I'm in the back seat.
[13:43]Can I read, you know, she's gonna turn down
[13:45]the music, okay, right now, I'm sure my siblings
[13:48]were so annoyed and tired of me with my stories
[13:52]and wanting them to be characters.
[13:53]I would also put on like plays and act out
[13:57]some of the things that I wrote.
[13:58]But she never, she always fanned the flame
[14:00]and never like told me, you know,
[14:02]enough with your stories, enough with your poems.
[14:06]Yeah, she encouraged me and I think that that,
[14:08]oh, I know that that's a big part of why I'm a writer,
[14:11]is because like I didn't see writers who looked like me,
[14:15]but I knew that I could be one
[14:16]because my mother encouraged me and believed in me.
[14:20]And that's another reason why I want,
[14:22]I go to school a lot, I do a ton of school visits
[14:25]and try to meet as many young people as I can
[14:28]so that they can see one that writers are alive
[14:32]and living in a lot of times.
[14:34]In schools we study, you know, dead poets and writers.
[14:38]So it's nice I think for them to see like this person
[14:41]is a contemporary author making a living off of their words
[14:45]and if they want to do that, that they could do that too.
[14:48]That's amazing.
[14:49]Well, maybe I'll be doing a lot more like virtual school
[14:51]visits in the fall and I'm currently in a panic
[14:55]about what all my kids are doing for the fall
[14:57]so who knows what's happening.
[14:58]But I can't see.
[15:01]So let's go back to, it's so funny
[15:03]because I followed Jill Santapolo who was on my podcast
[15:07]for her books and then she posted about how she was
[15:10]so excited to announce this whole series.
[15:13]And then like I went to, and then I'm like,
[15:15]and I'm like, and you wrote one of those books.
[15:17]So explain the whole story.
[15:18]I feel like I'm getting all my facts and words mixed up today.
[15:21]So you say what the exactly what the series is
[15:24]and how you got involved in it.
[15:26]So Chelsea Clinton, she wrote a picture
[15:29]but called she persistent and in that picture book
[15:32]it features very short bios of women who persisted
[15:37]and overcame and you know, thought for justice
[15:41]or use their voices or their talents
[15:44]to be great citizens of our world.
[15:46]And so it's a beautiful picture book
[15:48]and now they have taken those women
[15:51]and they want to have chapter books for a little older audience.
[15:54]And so they reached out to 12 women to write these 12 stories
[15:59]and I am writing Oprah's biography.
[16:03]So it'll be out.
[16:04]My book, all of the series,
[16:06]the first book comes out in January of 2021
[16:10]and then each month of the year of new book will be out.
[16:13]And so mine does not come out until December.
[16:16]It's the last one.
[16:17]Oh, no.
[16:19]While to wait, but there is such an amazing line of the women
[16:23]who we are writing about and also the authors
[16:27]that Chelsea reached out to and selected.
[16:30]I just, I'm very honored to be a part of the project
[16:32]and I'm writing alongside some of my friends,
[16:36]writers that I admire and respect.
[16:37]And so it really does feel like a sisterhood
[16:40]in this very real way.
[16:41]And sometimes, you know, projects can be manipulated
[16:45]and made and marketed in a way.
[16:47]But this is a very authentic like we are in it together
[16:51]in real life.
[16:52]Like I know, Keckler, I know Meg Medina,
[16:54]I know these authors and we are having conversations
[16:57]about what it means to write for young girls,
[17:00]what it means to write a girl character
[17:02]and want everyone to read it and not just girls,
[17:05]you know, like that conversation of how do we teach our boys
[17:08]to respect women and respect women's voices.
[17:11]So yeah, it feels really great to be a part of the project.
[17:14]I'm super excited about it.
[17:15]And Jill is great.
[17:16]I've just worked with her and known her just by friendship
[17:19]and she's a wonderful person.
[17:20]So yeah, it's been a great project to be a part of.
[17:24]And I'm glad the news is out.
[17:26]Like when these things happen, it's hush-hush for a while.
[17:30]And so it was nice to finally share that this is in the works.
[17:35]That's awesome.
[17:36]So I actually, I have like a two book deal
[17:38]with Penguin Random House for children's books.
[17:40]Thanks.
[17:41]Yeah, but I couldn't talk about it for like almost seven months.
[17:45]And I was like dying to say something.
[17:47]Anyway, I finally could like I find it takes just so long.
[17:50]So I know what you mean.
[17:52]Yours is way bigger news.
[17:53]Mine are like these tiny little books.
[17:54]Oh, yeah.
[17:55]You're getting published as big news though.
[17:58]Thank you.
[17:58]But yeah, Jill, I saw Jill when I was in there
[18:00]and she was like, try to get a bigger book deal.
[18:03]Do you guys three-book deal, four-book deals?
[18:05]I was like, yeah, everybody.
[18:07]Let's keep adding them on.
[18:09]Anyway, everybody.
[18:10]So tell me a little about your writing process.
[18:12]When you get an idea for a book and everything
[18:14]you sit down, where do you like to write?
[18:15]How long does each book take?
[18:17]Do you know the whole thing?
[18:19]Yeah.
[18:20]So I say this often.
[18:22]I do a lot of writing in my head.
[18:25]I'm a thinker first.
[18:26]So I go on walks and I'm just kind of thinking
[18:29]about the character, who they are, what they're afraid of,
[18:33]but do they like, what do they want,
[18:35]and what's in the way of them getting what they want?
[18:38]So I'm kind of just thinking about them before I start writing.
[18:41]And I think that that's important.
[18:43]And I listen.
[18:44]I just pay attention to the world around me
[18:46]and I'm just constantly kind of taking in what's happening.
[18:51]So that when I sit down, I have something to say.
[18:54]And I'm not thinking in that moment
[18:56]of trying to think of an idea, I already
[18:59]have so much in my head.
[19:02]And I hand write first.
[19:03]There's something about, I'm just old school in that way,
[19:06]something about pen to paper that makes me more intimate
[19:09]with my character in the beginning and really gets me kind of,
[19:13]I usually write books in first person.
[19:14]So it's really helps me get in there,
[19:17]head a little bit more.
[19:19]And then once I feel like I have, okay, something's here,
[19:22]and I know who this character is, then I'll start typing it out
[19:25]and, you know, I don't hand write the whole novel.
[19:28]So I'll work on it and get it to about 60 pages
[19:32]and then I print it out, read it.
[19:34]And then I'm like, okay, this is something.
[19:38]And what needs to happen next?
[19:39]What needs to happen before these 60 pages?
[19:41]And that's when I kind of start crafting out the fuller story.
[19:45]But I'm messy when I write, I'll write a scene
[19:49]and there will be parts in it that's in parentheses
[19:52]and so something needs to happen here.
[19:55]A presentation about, you know, whatever.
[19:57]And then I'll keep going just so that I can get.
[20:00]it out. And then when I have a full story, I can go back and really layer it and, you know,
[20:06]fine tune it and be a writer. I feel like in the beginning, I'm more of a storyteller. I'm just kind
[20:11]of getting the story out. And I'm not paying attention to craft as much. But as I draft,
[20:16]then I really, really, you know, hone in on how do I want to tell this story? What's the best
[20:22]beginning, you know, first paragraph and all of that kind of stuff? And I like to write,
[20:27]I mean, at this point in my career, I have to just write anywhere. So I've learned how to write
[20:32]in airports and hotels and all kinds of noisy places. But my preference is a coffee shop or my home
[20:40]office. And I have my favorite coffee places and I don't even drink coffee on my first day. I have
[20:46]my places that I love to go in different cities. And I usually have a playlist that coincides with
[20:54]with the novel. And so I'm like a soundtrack. So that I'm in that world. And so I put my headphones
[21:00]on and I just work for a few hours. There's something about being out where there are people,
[21:06]but also being by yourself. Writing is so isolating anyway. And so I like to be out and about
[21:12]because I could really just stay in all day for like weeks and weeks and weeks if I'm working on
[21:18]a project. And I don't, for me, that's not healthy. So I need to be around people. But I'm in my
[21:24]own world with my headphones. I kind of get the best of both worlds of being the introvert and having
[21:30]to write, but also being out and seeing people. So here's my issue with writing at bookstores,
[21:36]because I have tried doing this in the past. But then like if I'm going to go set up shop at like
[21:41]Penn Co-Tidient, right near my air, like near the kids school or something like that,
[21:44]then what happens when you have to get up and you go to the bathroom? Like I never know what to do
[21:48]with all my stuff. Do I have to pack up every time? Or do I ask somebody to watch my stuff? So
[21:53]then I'm like, forget it. I'm just going to work at home. Yeah, it depends. I mean, I definitely
[21:59]have some places that I feel like are right or friendly. So there's kind of a code where we're all
[22:05]working. So yeah, you give the, you know, do you mind? And then I'm going to go and your next,
[22:10]trade off kind of thing. And then yeah, if I don't know the place, I will pack up my stuff. Usually
[22:17]I don't have a lot. I really just have my laptop and like, you know, my phone out on the table.
[22:23]So it's easier to bring that with me. When I'm revising, so that's writing, I write out in public,
[22:29]I create and public. When I am in the throes of like revising and plot and storyboarding and I have
[22:37]like posted notes on the wall of all the things that I have to be at home. It's just, it's too,
[22:42]like you said, it's way too much stuff to try to take and then take over a whole table in a
[22:48]public space. And you know, I'm in New York. So there are not that many public spaces that actually
[22:52]have that kind of space. So yeah, when I, when I have all my writerly things out at the,
[22:58]I tend to write home in my office. I really love how you just said a minute ago how part of it is
[23:05]storytelling, but that's separate from the writing. It's almost, it's like building a house,
[23:10]right? It's like you're, first you're building the structure and then like the painters come in,
[23:14]you know? It's like, it's all different stages. But to be a truly gifted author, you have to have
[23:20]both of those abilities. Like you can't just like be a great writer, but not know how to tell a good
[23:25]story or vice versa. I work hand in hand for sure. Yeah. And I try to really think, I think a lot
[23:32]the craft of writing. I think the poet in me, I first as a child wrote a lot of poetry, studied
[23:39]a lot of poetry, and then I taught it and as a teaching artist in many schools. So I think a lot
[23:47]about word choice and sentence structure and when do you break a sentence or the white space on a
[23:53]page and how that conveys emotion and is also telling your reader something that just the words.
[24:00]So yeah, I dig into that kind of stuff when I'm later on in the draft and then really have the
[24:05]full story. But in the beginning, I'm not necessarily thinking about those things. So I'll go back
[24:11]through and be like, oh, you need to rework this whole paragraph. Like what is happening is fine,
[24:16]but let's, you know, say that in a different way or let it unfold differently. So I try to take
[24:21]time with the writing. I love that part of it actually. A lot of people don't like to revise,
[24:28]I do enjoy going back and revisiting and revisioning the story.
[24:34]Love that. Revisioning. That's awesome. Makes it sound much more fun than revising.
[24:40]Makes it sound like an amazing creative endeavor versus like a slog through sentences and red marks.
[24:45]There are definitely some moments where I'm calling friends like, I can't, why did I say I could do
[24:50]this? And this is not going anywhere. What do I do for sure? So it's not all fun, but it is,
[24:56]it's a good challenge to have. So you have so much coming up. So you have the Oprah Winfrey book
[25:01]for she persisted. You're working already on the rest of the series. Are you making any of these
[25:06]a movie? You must be. This must be like a whole big thing. That must be private cars.
[25:10]I mean, there's nothing that can share right now, but I'm definitely working on like wanting
[25:17]some of my books to be adapted. And even, I mean, at one point, I'm not doing this right now,
[25:22]but I would love to write just not a book that's being adapted, but just write a movie's
[25:27]screenplay or a TV series. So yeah, I always say I'm a writer right now. I'm writing a lot of
[25:33]children's books, but you know, I want to do adult fiction. I want to have a poetry collection. So
[25:38]we'll see what happens in the years. These coffee shops have to open soon. There's too much for
[25:44]you to do. It's so interesting working in my space constantly now, right? As a person who does
[25:51]goes out a lot to create. And in the beginning, it was really hard. I mean, for so many reasons,
[25:57]it was just, it felt like the world happened turned upside down. And emotionally, it was just hard
[26:02]to kind of process what was happening and also beyond deadline for books and have to get things done.
[26:10]And then being a space that I really hadn't been in in a while creating. I had just come back from
[26:15]2019 was a lot of touring and traveling for me. So I hadn't actually been home in a while. So
[26:21]it was so much that I had to just like take a moment. So those first few weeks of quarantine were
[26:27]really, really rough and nothing got done. And that's okay too. And I say that to writers all the
[26:33]time. Sometimes you just, you can't. And that's okay. I still was paying attention. And I feel
[26:40]like whatever was happening emotionally for me will show up in the work in future works, you know,
[26:46]but it's also okay to just sit down and not not feel like you have to create and push yourself
[26:51]to do, do, do. So it's while this has been really hard. And then of course all the protests and
[26:59]the resurgence of us having a national conversation about Black Lives and all of that has just been
[27:05]a lot to be a part of and then also be creating during this time. So I've been really leaning into
[27:13]poets and activists who came before me who also lived through really, really hard times and still
[27:21]found a way to write and create and actually used all of that anger, frustration, fear, sadness
[27:27]to push them to write. So Nikki Giovanni, Tony Morrison, you know, these giants who used their pen
[27:34]in moments of unrest. And that's been encouraging me that like I can, I can do this. There's so many
[27:40]people who have already done this and left me great, great examples. So I've been really, really
[27:46]reminding myself of that. It's amazing. I love that perspective. That was also great advice for
[27:52]aspiring authors, but I would like a little more. So what else would you say to an aspiring
[27:58]author aside from that the time is not always right? And you shouldn't feel like you have to do
[28:02]to do all the time. And you know, sometimes you just collect the information. You're not
[28:06]outputting it. It's more like the input stage. What else would you say to an aspiring author?
[28:10]So there's a couple of things that I think that are important. I obviously reading is super
[28:15]important. And I think whatever genre you're trying to write and read, you know, a lot in that
[28:23]genre, but also if you find something that you really, really love, then read that again, because
[28:28]when we're first the first time you're taking in a movie or a play or a book, there's so many
[28:34]many things you're missing, right? So if you love a book, I encourage people to go right back
[28:40]to the first page and then study that book and figure out, what is this writer doing? Technically,
[28:47]that is making me love this so much. Like, why did I keep turning the page? Why was I so engaged
[28:52]with these characters and then figure out how to do that in your own work? And what can you learn
[28:57]from these writers? I mean, of course, you can take classes and that's great and all that,
[29:01]but there's something about understanding what makes you like something and how do you do that
[29:07]in your work and what are your kind of cornerstones as a writer? So figure out what is your voice
[29:13]and how do you want to get your voice out there? And then my other advice is not very like
[29:18]writerly, but it's fine for people. I really think like I was saying writing is isolating
[29:24]and it is really hard. There are a lot of no's. There's a lot of weight like you just said,
[29:30]you know, there's, oh great, we have this big news up. You can't say anything for a while or
[29:35]you're going to get published, but not for like my first book, I signed the contract in 2007,
[29:41]it was a picture book. It didn't come out till 2010. So like, there's a lot of hurry up and wait
[29:47]in this industry and you're going to need some people who, even if they're not writers,
[29:53]but who are going to encourage you and who are going to push you and who are going to understand
[29:57]that you cannot maybe do.
[30:00]the weekend brunch meet up because you're working on
[30:04]your novel or whatever.
[30:05]And I think if it weren't for my friends
[30:07]and the people who really love me
[30:09]and are gonna tell me that I could do this,
[30:12]I don't think that I would be writing.
[30:14]And I need it to lean on people.
[30:16]And I'm so grateful that I have them.
[30:18]So yeah, it doesn't need to be a whole lot of people,
[30:20]but I think you need one or two
[30:22]who are gonna really have your back
[30:24]and support you and push you
[30:26]and not let you give up on yourself.
[30:28]That is excellent life advice for anything.
[30:31]Any profession, anything you're trying to do in the world?
[30:33]I think that is spot on, perfect.
[30:37]Well, Renee, thank you so much.
[30:39]This has been so nice.
[30:40]I'm sorry I felt like I was a bit scattered this morning
[30:42]with like not retrieving the right names and information.
[30:44]And so I'm sorry for that,
[30:46]but I really enjoyed your book.
[30:47]And I'm such a fan of yours.
[30:48]And I can't wait till now, follow and see
[30:50]all the amazing things you're gonna do.
[30:52]So.
[30:53]Oh, thank you.
[30:53]It's really nice to meet you, thanks for having me.
[30:55]And congratulations again on your book.
[30:57]Oh, thank you.
[30:58]Yeah, maybe they'll come out in like 20, 26.
[31:00]There it is.
[31:01]All right, thanks so much, Renee.
[31:04]Thank you so much.
[31:06]You've been listening to Momson Have Time to Read Books
[31:09]with Zibi Owens.
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