Michele Harper, THE BEAUTY IN BREAKING
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[0:53]The sponsor for this whole Labor Day book last week is firstbook.org.
[0:58]Obviously, the pandemic is crippling education for millions of students, especially those in low-income communities.
[1:04]The widening digital divide and extended quote unquote summer slide due to COVID is devastating.
[1:10]Apparently, 40% lack access to reliable internet and functioning digital devices
[1:15]they can use for online learning, making the need for physical books and resources to prevent
[1:20]further educational backsliding absolutely critical. First book breaks down the barriers to education
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[1:44]They need your support to ensure these children have what they need to learn during this
[1:48]critical time. Visit firstbook.org to help Michelle Harper is the author of The Beauty in Breaking,
[1:54]which was an instant New York Times bestseller, and I can totally see why. It's such a good
[2:00]memoir. Michelle has worked as an emergency room physician for more than a decade at various
[2:04]institutions, including as chief resident at Lincoln Hospital in the South Bronx and is in the
[2:09]emergency department at the Veterans Affair Medical Center in Philadelphia. She's a graduate of Harvard
[2:14]University and the Renaissance School of Medicine at Stony Brook University. The beauty in breaking
[2:19]is her first book. Listen to us talk and you'll see why I threatened to stalk her because I'm like
[2:24]so obsessed with her writing. Welcome, Michelle. Thank you so much for coming on mom's. Don't
[2:28]have time to read books. Thank you. Thank you for having me. I am so excited to discuss this
[2:34]beautiful memoir which was so good and oh my gosh, I just loved it. As soon as I started reading it,
[2:42]I was like emailing your publicist. I have to charge her. So anyway, it's so well written and so
[2:47]great. So thank you for joining me. Would you mind telling listeners who don't know what the
[2:53]beauty in breaking is about what your memoir is really about and also what makes you write a memoir?
[2:58]Right. Well, so it is a memoir and it's about me and difficulties I overcame growing up in an
[3:05]abusive household with a better as a father. And so it's my journey to healing, but it's also
[3:11]interwoven between patient stories and each chapter is one or two patients names and it explores
[3:17]their own journey to healing in their lives. And so the reason I wrote this was because for me,
[3:24]I resonate more with the healing process and being a healer more than any specific title.
[3:29]So more than being a doctor specifically. You know, I find that in the ER, I can help potentially
[3:35]one patient at a time, one family at a time, maybe one community at a time, but with writing so
[3:40]much more, I mean, people throughout the state, the country, the world. And so that appealed to me.
[3:47]And I thought, well, this is another way for me to use a different platform to demonstrate
[3:52]our interconnectedness as human beings and support healing for people and other locations.
[3:59]It's amazing. Well, I'm really glad you did. I just wanted to start by reading this beautiful quote
[4:05]which sort of explains the naming of your book. You wrote from childhood to now, I have been
[4:10]broken many times. I suspect most people have in practicing the Japanese art of kinsu kuroi. One
[4:17]repairs broken pottery by filling in the cracks with gold silver platinum. The choice to highlight
[4:22]the breaks with precious metals, not only acknowledges them, but also pays tribute to the vessel that
[4:27]has been torn apart by the mutability of life. The previously broken object is considered more
[4:31]beautiful for its imperfections in life too, even greater brilliance can be found after the
[4:36]mending. I loved that. So I'm assuming this is this whole theory is how you named your book.
[4:42]Yes. Tell me about how this theory has played out in your life. Right. It's true. That's how I
[4:47]named the book and it resonates with me in life in general, because I feel that part of the deal
[4:52]of being human is that there will be challenges. They're just will in life. And so then the question
[4:59]not will something painful happen or something that feels unfair or something that could
[5:05]wrench us apart, but how we meet that moment and how we come through it and how we are on the
[5:12]other side of it. And I believe that in coming through it, we can be stronger, more resilient.
[5:20]And then for me, of course, the most important thing is that we can contribute in a more
[5:24]powerful, meaningful way to life in general and help other people, which is, of course,
[5:30]the most powerful thing you can do as a human being anyway, right? Perfect. So one of the things
[5:38]you did in this book that was so interesting, which you just mentioned, is how you
[5:42]weave in all the different stories. So you'll go from yoga class to gunshot wounds to,
[5:48]I mean, we're like all over the place here. You're like sitting on the couch and then, you know,
[5:54]like trying to get a tube down a baby's throat. Like, where are we here? What's your
[5:58]eye on? Like, how much do I have to be like sitting forward on the edge of my seat or can I relax
[6:03]in one of your chapters where you're like doing your busy work at home. But anyway, one of the
[6:07]things you mentioned is that when you're waiting for a patient to come in to the ER, oftentimes you'll
[6:12]hear a story first. And you don't want to get wrapped up in the story. You said, the luxury of just
[6:18]being in the moment of doing our job without getting tangled up in the story of the job is a luxury
[6:23]really. But most of the time, you hear what it is ahead of time. Tell me a little bit about
[6:28]this and knowing what it does when you know, when you hear it, when the EMS team calls and says
[6:34]that such and such is on the way, how you prepare yourself for things like that, because I feel like
[6:40]it sort of, you know, encapsulates things in life, right? It's like, it's all like a metaphor,
[6:45]it's a whole book, I feel like it's a metaphor for everything bigger. So tell me about that, please.
[6:50]It's true. I mean, if there's a potentially critical patient coming in, we'll get a notification
[6:56]often. And so they might say, okay, baby with a seizure coming in, unresponsive might need
[7:04]information, something along those lines. So we'll get the rooms ready. And if I'm the provider on
[7:10]who's going to get the case, I'll try and tidy up my other work. So I can drop everything and go to
[7:15]this patient. I mean, the benefit is that we may be able to prepare the downside is it can
[7:22]buy us us and maybe that's not at all what's coming in. It might not be an infant. It could be a
[7:29]trauma and not just a medical case. So in some ways, it can lead us from being really prepared
[7:36]to take care of the patient because we might not consider aspects of the case that happened.
[7:42]So you're right. That applies not only in the ER, but in life in general. And to maintain an
[7:47]open month for me to maintain an open mind and not get carried away with my biases that could
[7:54]influence my work. You know, I speak about such a case, various examples, but one in particular,
[8:01]a patient came in and it said he had a hemorrhoid and he was fine and he was stable. And I reviewed
[8:08]the vital signs, but then an alert came up on the board when I was reviewing the electronic
[8:14]record that he had been violent in the past. And he had assaulted a female physician who was taking
[8:20]care of him sexually assaulted her. And of course, I made my blood boil that in the act of this
[8:25]woman, taking care of him, trying to save him from an infection that could have been life
[8:31]threatening that he chose to assault her in that moment. And then of course, my blood was boiling
[8:36]too because it was described in this just casual way. You know, she put down her knife and walked
[8:41]away and then a man finished the procedure. So when I read his record, he was stable according to
[8:47]everything documented by the nurse. So I was like, you know what, I'm going to make coffee. He can wait
[8:50]for me to make coffee. And I'll stir in the sugar or grain by grain and enjoy this terrible coffee
[8:57]that was sitting in the ear for probably eight hours. And I came back, maybe it was just a couple
[9:02]minutes later, but I felt that well, he was fine to wait, but other patients might come in and
[9:07]they shouldn't wait. And when I saw the patient and examined him, I realized he wasn't coming in
[9:12]with a hemorrhoid at all and actually had an incarcerated hernia, it's a technical term, but it is
[9:18]surgical emergency. He needed to go to the operating room. And I told that case because he is not
[9:24]a sympathetic character and what he did was awful, but also it wasn't relevant to the moment
[9:32]of me seeing him. And while he needed to be held accountable and while the hospital needed to
[9:37]be held accountable also to take care of their staff and not enable abusive their staff. My job
[9:44]in that moment because I really didn't know him or what had happened was to deliver the best
[9:49]care possible. And so I wanted to show how it was important for me to hold myself accountable
[9:56]in that way as well. Now, you did fine. I took care of
[10:00]of him, interestingly enough, the two surgeons who were on were also women and took care
[10:04]of him. And I thought, did he think about that? I don't know if he had grown since then.
[10:08]I don't know if he was in therapy. I don't know if anything had changed the course of
[10:12]his life for understanding. But I wondered if he thought about that. I wondered if somehow
[10:17]that changed him. And I knew that the only way that he or I or any of us would grow
[10:22]is if we were open and sensitive to the understanding in that moment, if I could have
[10:28]compassion for him. And if he could have compassion enough for himself, then we could
[10:33]all be better for it.
[10:35]Well, you also talk about in the book, this ethics case essentially that comes in when
[10:40]you had a, you had a bunch of like white police men bring in a black man. And they were
[10:45]trying against his will to get him to get all his, they thought he had swallowed drugs and
[10:49]his whole mess. And so instead of insisting on the medical exam per the police, you, in your
[10:57]like badass way that you obviously have, as I can tell from this book, just went in and
[11:01]you calmly, you like looked him in the eye and asked him some questions. And then you told
[11:06]everybody like, no, no, no, this is not, we cannot do this. You can't force somebody to do
[11:09]something against you. Well, tell me a little more about that moment. And what it's like
[11:15]to just have even the person that you train sort of questioning you and all this sort of
[11:20]systemic stuff that get mixed in with medical care.
[11:24]Yeah, constantly. Yes, the police wanted me to force this exam on him, which is unprofessional
[11:30]unethical and illegal because he was competent. I mean, I don't know if he swallowed drugs or
[11:35]not. It also didn't matter because he was competent and sober and didn't want to be examined.
[11:41]So the right thing to do was to discharge him from the emergency department, which I did. Now,
[11:47]meanwhile, the person I was training, the resident had called, you know, which he deemed a higher
[11:52]authority hospital ethics and legal department to see if she could go around me to get this done
[11:58]anyway. And the hospital said, no, you actually can't because she's right. And if you do that,
[12:05]it would be illegal. And that would be bad for everyone. So she said, okay, yeah, they said you're
[12:10]right. And then she just went on with her business. And it was very important for me in telling
[12:16]that was to show how, yes, you know, as we're seeing now with the protests and movements for
[12:23]justice that there are definitely issues with systemic racism in the police department.
[12:28]And so we also have them in our own house in the house of medicine and demonstrating how
[12:34]we've been complicit and how we can and how, yes, it takes tremendous acts of courage to stand
[12:40]up against these institutions, but it can be done. And in that one case, it was effective.
[12:45]And how we have to continue these movements if we want progress to happen. And that was just one
[12:50]story. You're right. It happens all the time. And it is exhausting. My hope is that in telling
[12:55]these stories, it will empower other people to act as well. And you also illustrated how you were
[13:01]passed over for promotion that you completely deserved. And the hospital, not only do they not
[13:07]promote you to the job that you deserve, they left it open the position left, which is like the
[13:13]ever. It's worse. I guess worse than that. So yeah, it was the only one to apply for that
[13:21]position. And my boss had called me and it was an administrative position in the hospital.
[13:26]And he said, you know, I'm so sorry, you were super qualified. And he told me point blank,
[13:32]this hospital just never promotes women or people of color. And so they always leave. And I hope
[13:37]you'll stay on with us. I hope you'll stay anyway. I did leave. And you're right, I was the only
[13:43]applicant they left it open. And I found out shortly after my leaving, they did hire someone for it.
[13:48]And it was a white male nurse. So like, what do you do with all that? Like, what do you do with all
[13:54]of like, how do you process that feeling? Like, I would be so pissed off. I mean, I don't know. How
[14:00]do you just like, hand in your resignation and just like start a job somewhere else without that
[14:05]lingering, you know? So it lingers in the way that I don't forget clearly because I put it in the
[14:12]book. But I process it because the only option for me is to move forward. And then I think about
[14:25]you know, how to navigate these structural issues that we talked about, the structural sexism and
[14:32]racism, you know, the list goes on. I mean, homophobia and rights for people who have different
[14:38]levels of physical ability. So how does one process that? Well, the only option for me is to keep
[14:44]moving forward. And the way I tackled the system will vary depending on the circumstance. And that
[14:51]one instance, for example, with the job, I decided it was best for me to just leave. They had already
[14:56]had a lawsuit. I mean, clearly didn't really change much. And so one picks her battles. And so
[15:03]in this case, I figured I would leave, but my work would continue fighting for equality and justice
[15:09]and part of that is speaking openly shedding light on these issues, which can take tremendous risk.
[15:16]That's come up in interviews before like, how are you doing this? What if there's backlash?
[15:20]It's true. There can be backlash, but there's a place now for truth tellers. And it's now,
[15:27]and this time it's more important than ever, you know, I started writing this book years ago.
[15:32]If I had to estimate maybe six years ago, I had no idea it would come out during a pandemic,
[15:38]you know, after the Me Too movement had started during Black Lives Matter. I had no idea.
[15:43]So the personal risk I was anticipating was even greater. Now, as it happens, this is the time
[15:50]it comes out, which has created a softer landing. And I'm actually grateful because there's
[15:56]more of a space. People are a little more open to talk about it now and to act.
[16:01]Tell me about the six years of writing this book. Tell me about the moment when you said,
[16:06]you know what? I'm going to try this and I'm going to sit down and like you opened up your computer
[16:10]or whatever. Like, what was that like? So I, and these had been, these stories had been
[16:15]percolating since residency. And it started where, you know, I would, I would see patients
[16:22]and their experiences would just stay with me. And this is back in residency. So this is
[16:28]gosh, over like 15 years ago, 14 years ago, anyway, I'm dating myself. So, and they would just
[16:36]stay. And I didn't know what I was going to do with it. But I know that I had to process them, tell
[16:40]them, and amplify these voices. And so around six years ago, I said, okay, now it's time. I want
[16:47]to start writing. And since I work shifts, I couldn't make classes. I really wanted to enroll in
[16:53]literature class and I figured I'd work on my writing that way. But I couldn't. So I found someone
[16:58]who could do some private instruction with writing. And I said, you know what? If I'm going to
[17:02]pay for this and we're going to meet weekly, I might as well just start worrying. And not
[17:07]couple of weeks in. I said, well, I should just start working on my book. And that'll be my personal
[17:11]project to write my book. And so that's how it began. And I just figured it out as I went along.
[17:17]I, so once I was done, I said, well, now I have a book. I guess I should try and do something
[17:22]with it. I'm like, met with a literary consultant because I had no idea who advised, yeah, I think
[17:29]it's good enough. You should try and get it traditionally published. And then I was rejected by
[17:34]agents for maybe a year and a half. And I was, of course, it always happens this way. I was about
[17:41]to give up. And then my current agent took the book and believed. And I'm so grateful that she
[17:48]believed. And then with like within a month, it sold it auction. And then I edited for like another
[17:55]year and then I did about eight months. And now we have a book. Wow. That was the process.
[18:02]What a journey. Oh, my gosh. I had no idea. And this is lifetimes. Like as an ER doctor,
[18:07]years and years, I'm like, you know, I can save a life in three hours. This book took six years.
[18:17]It's not for the faint of heart to write it. It's not for the faint of heart to write it.
[18:20]It's published. Well, I mean, that just goes to show like you just can't give up. I mean,
[18:27]I'm so glad you didn't. I bet those first slew of agents to just kick in themselves right now.
[18:31]It's interesting. And you're right. And another story I really like to tell is one of
[18:36]most of the times the rejection came in the form of silence. And every once in a while, someone was
[18:42]that I mean, so some of the agents were so kind and they would write and they'd say, you know,
[18:45]this is a really great project. It's just not what I do. So someone else should represent this who
[18:51]can do a justice. But then one woman. And I wish I kept the email. I was going through a difficult
[18:57]period at my life point. And then I thought the book also wouldn't work. And so I didn't think
[19:01]to keep her email. But I remember I was walking down the street. And I heard from one agent who
[19:07]in California who I figured I would never hear from her again because I think I wrote her maybe
[19:12]six months before. And I get an email on my phone. And I'm walking down the street because I was
[19:17]clearing my head. And I like to take walking meditation walks. And I opened it up. And I was kind of
[19:23]started as, I'm so sorry. I meant to get back to you sooner. And then she continued to say,
[19:30]but I wanted to make sure to write you to just let you know that we already have doctors writing.
[19:36]And she proceeded to name like three men. I had never heard of one of them and vaguely the other.
[19:42]And none of them from underrepresented groups of color. And she's like, we already have these
[19:46]doctors writing. So we don't need your book. I just wanted to let you know that.
[19:50]That was the email. And I was furious that this woman went out of her way and took her time.
[20:00]to tell me to stop what I'm doing
[20:02]because my voice is not needed.
[20:04]And I remember thinking,
[20:05]this is just fuel.
[20:06]Oh, I'm gonna get it done.
[20:08]And she's gonna hear about this book.
[20:10]So at this point,
[20:12]I'm sure she has and it's a sweet moment.
[20:15]You have to like wrap up a coffee
[20:18]and like, that is to her door and be like,
[20:22]oh, here it is, you know.
[20:25]That's right.
[20:27]I'm terrible.
[20:27]That makes me sound like spiteful and awful.
[20:30]We should just feel the fact
[20:32]that I don't actually do it.
[20:34]I won't do it.
[20:35]And hopefully she does remember and thinks twice
[20:37]before she tries to kill someone else's dream.
[20:40]But, you know, that's my-
[20:41]So the challenge with almost like not taking things
[20:45]personally in this literary craziness
[20:47]because they could just say like,
[20:49]okay, medical books check.
[20:51]And then they're not like,
[20:52]oh, this interesting new voice.
[20:54]It's like, oh, that book is filled.
[20:56]Now we need like a rock star.
[20:57]Now we need, you know, an addiction novel.
[21:01]I mean, like, but yeah, it's a challenge.
[21:04]Let's talk about divorce for a minute
[21:06]if you don't mind.
[21:07]Of course.
[21:08]I'm always happy to talk about people
[21:10]who have gotten through divorce.
[21:11]Your parents got divorced.
[21:13]My parents got divorced.
[21:14]Everybody's getting, let's all get divorced right now.
[21:16]But you wrote really beautifully about sort of the future
[21:19]that wasn't, which is something that I think so many of us
[21:22]sort of have to grapple with that you see your life
[21:26]and not just with divorce, honestly.
[21:27]But you just see your life going in a certain way
[21:29]and with all of the things that comes with
[21:31]and then all of a sudden you come to a screeching halt
[21:33]and that not just what's going on now stops,
[21:36]but all the things that were to follow also stop.
[21:38]So just talk to me a little about that
[21:41]and how that sort of pervaded your life for a while
[21:44]and how you got over it or I don't know, any of it.
[21:47]Right, right.
[21:48]Yeah, the divorce.
[21:49]And so we were together, oh, this is funny.
[21:52]We met at the freshman ice cream mixer.
[21:54]That's what it was called in college.
[21:57]So we had a lot, essentially we were together,
[22:00]we grew up together really.
[22:02]And then before graduation from residency,
[22:05]I found out that the marriage is gonna end.
[22:08]He said he couldn't be with me anymore
[22:10]that I was on my life path
[22:12]and seemed that I would be successful
[22:14]as graduating from residency was gonna be a doctor.
[22:17]And his road was more challenging.
[22:19]He was interested in documentary film
[22:20]and pursuing the arts,
[22:22]which is a more difficult road, it's not linear.
[22:26]And he said, since I was doing well and he wasn't,
[22:28]he couldn't handle it.
[22:30]So we'd have to go our separate ways.
[22:32]And so in that moment, when he said that,
[22:35]I feel that everyone can make their own decisions.
[22:37]I don't take hostages.
[22:39]So if he couldn't be with me, then he couldn't.
[22:41]And I knew it was over and I wish him the best.
[22:46]And it was painful.
[22:48]And I also knew that it was triggering something
[22:50]much more painful than had to do with him at all.
[22:54]And I needed time to process that.
[22:56]But what I really was grieving was this loss
[23:00]of a story I had for our future.
[23:03]I thought we would continue together.
[23:05]We would have kids.
[23:06]I focused on my career finishing my career.
[23:09]So kids would happen later.
[23:10]I just took it for granted.
[23:11]And we were gonna be this fantastic cheek couple.
[23:16]I was this doctor, he's a documentary film artist.
[23:20]And we're gonna have the coolest kids
[23:22]and the greatest life.
[23:23]And that's what I was grieving.
[23:26]But even deeper than that,
[23:29]being a person who grew up in a dysfunctional home
[23:32]where there was so much pain and suffering and trauma
[23:34]and violence, including physical violence,
[23:37]that was the relationship with my ex-husband
[23:40]was the healthiest relationship I had with a man.
[23:45]And so I wanted a healthy family.
[23:47]I wanted to bring that to the world.
[23:51]So I grieve that more than any of it.
[23:54]And it was the moment that I understood that
[23:58]that I could heal from it.
[24:00]And so yes, I let my ex-husband go and quite peacefully so.
[24:05]And I believe that I allowed myself to open up.
[24:10]It's just a gamble.
[24:12]I don't know if he's the only one to say it.
[24:14]But I let go of the life that I had
[24:16]and this idea of a life that didn't even exist
[24:19]to let myself open up to the life that was waiting for me.
[24:23]And I didn't know what it was.
[24:25]But I knew that the only way for me to live with integrity
[24:28]was to be willing to accept what was happening
[24:33]and what was yet to come.
[24:36]And that was a really important story for me to talk about
[24:38]because what I've found in my own life
[24:40]and dealing with working with patients
[24:42]and family members and friends is that
[24:45]we get so imprisoned by these stories in our mind
[24:49]and so much liberation comes from just letting them go
[24:52]and letting them be and living.
[24:55]That was awesome.
[24:56]I love that.
[24:58]So what's like the two seconds like
[25:01]since the book ended, what's happened with you?
[25:04]Because now I want like the update.
[25:06]I'm like invested, I'm like in a stock,
[25:08]you know, I'm kidding.
[25:09]I feel like after you go through someone's whole life
[25:13]or a pile, you want to be like the few kids.
[25:16]So what's happened since and what's coming next
[25:19]and like what's the rest for you?
[25:22]I don't know.
[25:23]Okay.
[25:24]So I don't know.
[25:26]Okay.
[25:27]So what's happened since is honestly,
[25:29]I worked, it was kind of a while to get the book out
[25:32]and I worked on it tirelessly.
[25:35]And so now the book is out and now it's been a whirlwind.
[25:39]I mean, literally I work my shifts
[25:42]when I'm not doing shifts that I'm speaking
[25:45]to fun, interesting cool people like you.
[25:48]And it's actually a last, but it's so far
[25:52]it's been like every day I'm off.
[25:54]And then I schedule time when I can eat dinner
[25:56]or maybe clean or something.
[25:58]And so that's really how it's been
[26:02]and thinking about what's next on this literary path
[26:06]and some interesting conversations around film and TV.
[26:10]The moment I have time to consider it,
[26:12]I do want to think about future writing.
[26:14]I mean, I have an essay that should be coming out.
[26:16]I'm super excited about soon,
[26:18]but books also I want to think about.
[26:20]So, so it's really interesting
[26:22]because well, I'm not going to say how I end the memoir
[26:24]for whoever hasn't read it,
[26:25]but I do speak about what we've already talked about
[26:28]and important part for me and my spiritual path
[26:31]and life path is becoming comfortable with uncertainty
[26:35]and just not knowing.
[26:37]So the true answer is I don't know
[26:40]what's happening next.
[26:41]I have all these ideas about potential projects
[26:44]and now I have to see which seeds take root first.
[26:48]And it's fascinating for me
[26:50]because on my medical path, it was really easy.
[26:52]Like you do steps XYZ, it takes you in this direction.
[26:57]If you want to go a different direction,
[26:58]you follow this path.
[26:59]This is different.
[27:01]I have no idea.
[27:02]Again, this is not linear.
[27:04]So it's exciting and we'll see.
[27:06]And I know it'll be interesting.
[27:08]That's actually the only thing I know.
[27:11]All right, so I'll just keep stopping you.
[27:12]We'll have to like open your blinds one day.
[27:16]All right, now I'm going to high rise.
[27:20]We'll be a little challenging.
[27:22]I like Spiderman.
[27:23]No, I'll just follow you on Instagram.
[27:25]I'll tell you.
[27:28]Do you have any advice to aspiring others?
[27:30]Yes.
[27:31]And that is the tenacity.
[27:34]That is just to write about what moves you.
[27:37]Like write the story that has to be told.
[27:40]Write the story that is calling you.
[27:45]And then have bravery in doing it.
[27:48]You know, one thing that I, it's probably cliche,
[27:51]but one thing that I experienced was
[27:53]there were moments I worked with tremendous editors
[27:56]and I love my editor, the publisher.
[27:59]He's so wonderful.
[28:00]But even in working with him or my literary whisper,
[28:03]there were times, I don't know, maybe 20% of the time
[28:05]when I said nope.
[28:07]This is the way this part of the story has to be told.
[28:09]I can't give up this part of the story.
[28:11]This is the part I love.
[28:13]It's true to me.
[28:14]And 80% of what you said is completely correct.
[28:17]And I am a better human for it.
[28:19]This is a better book for it,
[28:21]but this 20% has got to stay.
[28:23]And it always worked out well that way.
[28:26]And I feel like we both won when we did that.
[28:28]So I would say, no, what is true for you?
[28:30]Stick by it and just keep going and don't give up
[28:33]because there are people who will try and tell you
[28:35]your voice isn't needed.
[28:37]But I'm here to tell you, especially women, people of color,
[28:41]other people who are traditionally silent,
[28:43]we specifically need your voices.
[28:45]So please keep going.
[28:47]Amazing.
[28:48]Thank you.
[28:49]Thank you so much.
[28:50]Thank you.
[28:51]Dr. Harper.
[28:51]Thank you.
[28:52]Thank you.
[28:54]Thank you.
[28:55]It's wonderful hanging out with you.
[28:56]You too.
[28:57]Yeah.
[28:58]You too.
[28:59]Yes.
[28:59]I'll be on the couch.
[29:01]I'm so thank you.
[29:02]Oh my god.
[29:03]I'm going to have to remember,
[29:05]like every time now I have Zoom,
[29:06]I am dressing appropriately because you never know.
[29:10]Oh, look, great.
[29:11]I don't know what you're talking about.
[29:13]I don't know if it's anything.
[29:14]You look so stupid.
[29:15]Sometimes I literally wear my pajamas and do these interviews.
[29:21]And I'm like, well, there's sweatpants.
[29:22]So see that.
[29:24]Exactly.
[29:25]Like, now that's the problem.
[29:27]Is that my sleepwear has become so similar to my daycare.
[29:33]Exactly.
[29:34]Oh, I don't know if it's day or night, anyway.
[29:36]So I'll just say, I can't see your full ensemble.
[29:39]But this angle, you look great.
[29:41]Well, thank you.
[29:42]It's yoga.
[29:42]I'm about to do yoga.
[29:43]It's yoga clothes.
[29:46]Oh, thank you.
[29:47]Thank you so much.
[29:48]Thank you so much for your day.
[29:50]Thank you.
[29:51]Bye-bye.
[29:51]Bye-bye.
[29:53]Thanks so much to firstbooks.org for sponsoring this Labor Day
[29:57]book blast.
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[30:06]Thanks for listening to this episode of Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books.
[30:09]Don't forget to follow me on Instagram, at Zibi Owens, and at Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books.
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[30:19]of authors on Zoom every other week. Thanks so much to Steve and Ryan at Texture Sound for
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[30:29]how and how trim music.