Sara Schaefer, GRAND
[0:08]Hi, I'm Zibi Owens, and you're listening to the award-winning podcast Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books.
[0:13]Please sign up for my newsletter at zibiowens.com for weekly updates about my podcasts, events, and more.
[0:20]Also, follow me on Instagram at zibiowens and also at Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books.
[0:26]And finally, join my virtual book club called Zibi's virtual book club, which meets every other Tuesday at 2 p.m.
[0:32]Eastern Time, until 3 p.m. and features half an hour of book club discussion, followed by 30 minutes of Q&A with the author whose book we've just discussed.
[0:41]You can sign up on my website zibiowens.com under the virtual book club section or even on Instagram, under the link in my bio.
[0:49]I hope you'll find me in all these different channels and enjoy this podcast.
[0:53]The sponsor for this whole Labor Day Book last week is FirstBook.org. Obviously, the pandemic is crippling education for millions of students, especially those in low-income communities.
[1:04]The widening digital divide and extended quote unquote summer slide due to COVID is devastating.
[1:10]Apparently, 40% lack access to reliable internet and functioning digital devices they can use for online learning, making the need for physical
[1:18]books and resources to prevent further educational backsliding absolutely critical. FirstBook breaks down the barriers to education for children living in low-income communities.
[1:28]By providing its network of more than 475,000 educators serving children in need with free and affordable new high-quality books, educational resources, and basic needs items through the award-winning first-book marketplace non-profit e-commerce site.
[1:44]They need your support to ensure these children have what they need to learn during this critical time.
[1:49]Visit FirstBook.org to help Sarah Shafer is a stand-up comedian and writer. She's also the author of Grant, and memoir.
[1:57]She was the co-host of MTV's Nicki and Sarah Live and has written for numerous television shows, including the fake news with Ted Nelms and the Mark Twain Prize for American humor.
[2:06]Sarah's solo show, Little White Box, debuted to a sold-out run at the 2017 Edinburgh Fringe Festival,
[2:12]and her comedy central stand-up presents special premiered in 2019. She currently lives in Los Angeles.
[2:18]Welcome, Sarah. Thanks so much for coming on, mom. Don't have time to read books.
[2:22]Thanks.
[2:23]I am really excited to discuss your memoir, Grant. I also took a white water rafting trip when I was younger
[2:31]with my family, so could you maybe tell everybody listening what your book is about, and then what
[2:37]inspired you to even write a memoir? So, Grant is a sort of inward and outward journey. For my 40th birthday,
[2:44]I went on a white water rafting trip in the Grand Canyon with my sister. It was like an eight-day,
[2:50]you know, 200 miles, very rugged outdoor adventure. And in the book, I chronicle the trip
[2:56]while also remembering basically what led me to the point of getting on that raft in that river,
[3:03]from childhood with stories all the way up to that moment. And I always knew I wanted to write a book
[3:09]from a very young age before I even realized I wanted to be a comedian or anything else I thought
[3:15]I want to write a book. But this book in particular came about, you know, with the idea of,
[3:21]there's a lot of stories from my life that I've never shared publicly before that felt more
[3:26]intimate and special to me and difficult that weren't really working yet. I hadn't even really
[3:32]tried but to talk about on stage as a stand-up wasn't really the place for it, I think. So writing
[3:38]this book came from wanting to share that part of my life and some of my stories in a more in-depth
[3:46]intimate way and a little more sincerity to it than what I do on stage, which is obviously trying
[3:52]to get as many laughs as possible. This book I have room to breathe and be more emotionally vulnerable
[3:59]in a way that I don't do on stage. So that's kind of the short of it. So was it cathartic for you to
[4:06]write about those times? Oh yeah, I mean, you know, the story of first the book was going to be
[4:13]kind of centering around my moral anxiety, which I do talk about in the book of like, am I a good
[4:19]person or am I a bad person? That's sort of like my life's quest is to figure out if I'm good or bad.
[4:26]And then later, much later in life, I realized that was such a flawed prison I had put myself in
[4:32]because no one is all good or bad. But how did I get to be that way? And the journey of my life
[4:39]up to that up to now and it's a pretty crazy story about my dad and my whole life changing at
[4:47]age 12. My whole family's life changing and a journey of redemption. My dad coming forward with
[4:54]some pretty scandalous news and us, our entire status in our hometown changing. My mom,
[5:00]our whole lives turned upside down. And I had a young age witnessed my own parents changing their lives,
[5:07]taking huge risks personally and repairing the damage and forgiveness. All those things were
[5:14]drilled into me, but I was too young to fully understand it. And so it sort of, the way I described
[5:20]in the book is it was like a bone healing out of place in me of being extremely afraid of being
[5:27]morally wrong because I saw it after the stuff that happened with my dad, you know, we were now
[5:32]on the right course. We were bad and now we're good. Before was bad, present is good. And that set
[5:39]me up for a real, real shit show later on. Excuse my language, but yeah. Well, I feel like the
[5:47]stuff with your dad, I feel like you wrote about it in such detail and all those little memories
[5:52]in the day and them sitting you down and then filling in backstory that you learned later and the
[5:58]emotion and the uncertainty really. And yet you also took this sort of detached view of it,
[6:04]like you were an outsider looking in, which I thought was such an interesting sort of angle because
[6:09]just tell me a little more about being at that age and going through something that, you know,
[6:15]you weren't sure what to make of it. And your church background, I feel like was the frame of
[6:19]reference you were using for everything. Yeah, I was definitely very keen on what I was learning
[6:27]and discovering at church, which was this concept of Christ being a source of unconditional love
[6:35]in all of your flawed complicated glory, you know, and that forgiveness is such a tenant of
[6:43]the Christianity that I was taught and redemption and all those things and baptism of like,
[6:49]you know, you're clean now and those things just crystallized in me like, oh, this is the answer.
[6:56]And church was where we were welcomed after all this, you know, my dad and my mom lost a lot
[7:01]of their friends and their status in our town and certain people took us in emotionally and a lot
[7:08]of those people existed at my church. And they're still, they are still people that I am in touch
[7:14]with and have been mentors to me, you know, into my whole family. And that community was crucial
[7:22]at that time. And it set us on a path of staying together as a family and learning to get through
[7:29]it as opposed to running away or disappearing or hiding. We just had to get through it. And so
[7:36]I was 12, though, I was a teenager and I didn't want my parents anywhere near me. I was like,
[7:41]oh, we solved it. We're good. Moving on, you know, I didn't want to dwell on it because I didn't
[7:46]have the emotional capacity as a 12 year old to really get into it. And it wasn't until years and
[7:51]years later. And a lot of it during writing this book because I discovered so much that I had never
[7:56]known talking to my father. I really, we spent a lot of time talking that I'd never heard so many
[8:02]of the things that happened. We went into real detail about everything. And it was really heartbreaking
[8:07]not being able to talk to my mom in this process. So it was one of the hardest parts of writing the
[8:12]book was not being able to ask her questions. But yeah, that comes in phases forgiveness is not a
[8:18]simple. I don't trust people that go, I forgive you. I'm not mad. Like right after something
[8:25]has really bad has happened. I don't trust that because I know that feelings change over time.
[8:30]An instant forgiveness is really not complete, you know, that it is a process. And people's
[8:38]feelings can change my journey with my, I've used the word journey way too much when I talk about
[8:43]this book. Okay. But that's what it is. But the voyage of my relationship with my father has been
[8:52]the sort of unexpected part of this is like, you know, I wanted to write so much about my mom.
[8:58]You know, I love, I love and miss her so much and she was such an incredible person. I feel like
[9:03]my did a good job here. But it was just a scratchy, the surface. You know, I would love to write
[9:07]more about her and explore her story more. But I didn't expect so much healing and discovery
[9:14]to happen with my father, which was such a gift of being able to do this that he trusted me enough
[9:20]to share with me and let me share with others. That's amazing. I mean, it's great to be able to
[9:26]reconceptualize things that have happened. And it's not always so clear, right? People who do
[9:31]things that, you know, not to go back into your right and wrong thing, good and bad or whatever,
[9:36]dichotomy. But if you do something that you shouldn't, it doesn't make you necessarily a bad person,
[9:42]do you know what I mean? So I don't know. Right. And we always joke there is that show bloodline
[9:49]and the main character says, we're not bad people, but we did a bad thing.
[9:55]My family uses that line sometimes as a joke. But yeah, I don't, it's been
[10:00]Tough, cause I'm someone who's naturally,
[10:02]I got this from my mom,
[10:03]is being really empathetic to others.
[10:06]I'm lucky that I was taught empathy
[10:08]and especially after all that happened,
[10:10]working my mom, working with
[10:13]a houseless people in our town
[10:15]and really going there.
[10:17]And she became dedicated to a life of service
[10:21]after all this happened.
[10:22]And she felt called and I don't know,
[10:25]I couldn't ask her for this, was she thinking,
[10:28]this is how I make up for,
[10:29]I mean, cause my mom didn't do anything wrong,
[10:31]which she felt she was part of it
[10:33]in that she blindly followed what my dad did.
[10:36]And, you know, I would love to talk to her about it now
[10:40]just to like revisit and both, you know.
[10:43]Anyway, you know, we've entered into a life of service
[10:46]as a family and I was taught to see,
[10:50]my mom, the way my mom would describe it,
[10:52]you know, is that she saw God in everyone she met.
[10:56]And it was to serve someone, the lowest,
[11:00]most vulnerable person in your community is to serve God,
[11:04]you know, and that was how she viewed it.
[11:07]And so that was put into me a lot of lessons about empathy
[11:11]and not to assume, you know,
[11:14]people say empathy is always walking
[11:15]and someone else's shoes.
[11:17]It's like you'll never really be able
[11:19]to walk into someone else's shoes.
[11:21]Recognizing that first is the first step towards empathy.
[11:24]Is knowing you can't assume what's right
[11:27]for someone else, what their experience is like,
[11:29]but you can try to learn and listen
[11:31]and let them tell you.
[11:33]And my mom was very good at that.
[11:34]She wanted to meet a need.
[11:36]She never wanted to tell others
[11:38]what was gonna fix their life.
[11:40]You know, she was like, what is it that you need?
[11:42]And then she would try to meet that need.
[11:44]And I thought that that was so beautiful,
[11:46]but it has led me to sometimes be unable to recognize
[11:51]like actually really bad people at times.
[11:55]Cause I'm like, but everyone has a story.
[11:57]Everyone has a, you know,
[11:58]everyone's reason for doing things that, you know,
[12:01]and then I look at someone, you know,
[12:03]perhaps a certain politician or not naming names,
[12:06]but you know, like, or a really bad person in my life
[12:10]who's like hurting me over and over again,
[12:12]it's sometimes has been hard for me to back off of that
[12:16]and go, you know, sometimes you just got to let somebody go.
[12:19]They're just hurting you.
[12:21]You know, you'll never fix or save or make it meet their need.
[12:25]You know, yes.
[12:27]I mean, that was a rambling answer, but I know
[12:29]that it's such good advice.
[12:31]And the only sort of tragedy to that advice
[12:33]is I feel like everyone has to learn it themselves.
[12:36]Anyway, Jamie, like it's like one of those pieces
[12:39]that you learn through experience.
[12:41]And yet even if I tell like my best friend or my daughter,
[12:44]somebody, they'll be like, okay, yeah, yeah,
[12:46]but it's not gonna stop them from doing the same mistakes.
[12:49]So anyway, you don't learn it to learn it.
[12:52]Well, that's what, yeah, and the book I talked about that.
[12:54]I think that's a good like connection to the relationship
[12:58]I have with my little sister of us protecting each other
[13:01]and wanting to fix things for the other.
[13:04]And you see that in the book happen in the Grand Canyon
[13:07]of our own little personal battles that we were having
[13:11]and not being able to help the other one fix it.
[13:14]You know, it's really, I mean, you can support
[13:17]and you can listen and be there.
[13:18]And that's what you need to be,
[13:20]but you can't force your way onto someone else's way.
[13:23]Well, I would do this.
[13:24]Well, that's not necessarily what's right for them
[13:27]or their way of doing things.
[13:29]So true.
[13:30]I loved also when you had the 5,000 staples,
[13:33]the box of staples and you decided that by the time
[13:37]they were empty, you had to have achieved something
[13:39]in your wish list career of being a comedian
[13:42]and then you finished the box
[13:44]and you were like, I'd better get out of here
[13:46]because I didn't tell you about them.
[13:48]I didn't have a day job.
[13:50]My job when I went moved to New York City
[13:52]to try and become a comedian.
[13:53]I didn't know at all how to do it.
[13:55]I didn't know what I'd never even seen stand up comedy
[13:58]in person before.
[13:59]It only seen it on TV.
[14:00]I had no idea what I was doing.
[14:02]So I go to New York, I'm like, I'm gonna be a comedian.
[14:05]It's gonna take six months, you know,
[14:07]like I didn't know anything.
[14:08]And I got a day job because I didn't have any money
[14:12]and I had to support myself and New York is very expensive.
[14:15]But I remember thinking when I moved there,
[14:17]the salary that I was offered for my job
[14:20]was so much money.
[14:22]I was like, I'm rich.
[14:23]I had no idea that it was like not enough.
[14:27]Yeah, that's your subway fare.
[14:28]There you go.
[14:29]So there we are not the live off of, you know?
[14:31]So anyway, I was at this boring law firm job
[14:35]and my days were just spent in spreadsheets
[14:38]and with a really gross kind of creepy boss.
[14:42]And you know, I got all my early comedy was office humor
[14:46]because that was my life.
[14:47]And it was actually ended up being a great experience
[14:50]to write about in my early days of comedy
[14:52]because I didn't know what to write about.
[14:54]And I thought, I'll write about what's right in front of me.
[14:57]Well, no one's looking.
[14:58]I'll be in my cubicle working on something
[15:00]about this experience.
[15:01]But I was just, I think anyone pursuing a creative career
[15:06]hits that wall at some point when they realize,
[15:08]oh my God, this is gonna take so much longer
[15:10]than I thought it was gonna take.
[15:12]And because you're shown examples of people
[15:15]who overnight successes and young success
[15:18]and we value youth, you know, 30 under 30, you know,
[15:21]all these things.
[15:22]But for many, it is a really long journey.
[15:25]And I think it's probably more rewarding
[15:27]to get there in a more organic way
[15:29]than some sort of overnight success.
[15:31]I would imagine.
[15:32]But I mean, the money would be nice, but you know,
[15:36]I think I hit that wall and I had these like box of staples
[15:40]and I made a little deal with my,
[15:42]I always made little deals.
[15:43]I would be like, if he's standing at the top
[15:46]of these stairs when I come out of here, he loves me, you know.
[15:49]I would do those deals like, almost like he loves me,
[15:52]he loves me not, you know, if the phone rings right now,
[15:56]that's a sign from the universe, like, you know.
[15:58]And this little deal with myself
[16:01]about the box of staples with like a motivator of like,
[16:04]get out of here, get out of this stage,
[16:06]I'll figure out a way to make money
[16:07]as a entertainer, comedian, writer, or whatever
[16:10]by the time this box of staples runs out.
[16:12]Really didn't do the math and understand what,
[16:16]how many, I mean, I knew generally how many staples
[16:18]I would use a week.
[16:21]So I thought it was making a pretty safe bet,
[16:23]but then like the 5,000 staples were gone
[16:25]and I was really depressed.
[16:27]I was like, and that, because that was like, you know,
[16:29]and looking back, it was actually not that long.
[16:32]I actually had a quick turnaround there.
[16:34]You're using a lot of staples,
[16:35]so you're just for flying through them.
[16:37]You know, well, and I was only at that job
[16:40]for five years, but it felt like an eternity at that age.
[16:44]You know, your early 20s, it was just like,
[16:46]the clock was ticking.
[16:47]I was, you know, how am I going to do this?
[16:49]And I was so lucky I got this job.
[16:51]It was so weird.
[16:52]It was like hosting an online show for AOL,
[16:56]which existed then.
[16:58]And it was internet video and I was interviewing musicians.
[17:01]I thought, you know, I've made it and I did.
[17:04]I mean, I had made it.
[17:05]I got to quit my day job.
[17:06]That's all I wanted was just to not work at that day job.
[17:09]I wanted my job to be being in the entertainment industry,
[17:13]a comedian, writer, whatever.
[17:14]I didn't care what it was.
[17:15]I'm like, just make me a part of it
[17:17]and that sent me on my way.
[17:19]You know, I had some setbacks.
[17:21]I had to go back to the law firm job
[17:23]once the AOL thing got canceled.
[17:25]I mean, it was a real journey.
[17:26]Again, the word journey is let's, let's keep count.
[17:30]And then when did you decide
[17:32]then you were going to sort of interweave
[17:33]your whitewater rafting trip
[17:35]with your sort of family memoir of sorts?
[17:38]Well, it's crazy because I had this trip planned.
[17:42]You have to book them really far in advance
[17:43]to get your spot on the boat.
[17:45]So we probably had it booked over a year in advance.
[17:49]And I was already writing my book
[17:51]when I went on the Grand Canyon trip.
[17:53]I had no intention of writing about it.
[17:55]I mean, I'm not someone who's like,
[17:57]I don't seek out experiences for creative fodder.
[18:01]Like I'm pretty lucky in that I live in the moment
[18:05]with I separate my career from my life,
[18:08]you know, not like going home for vacation,
[18:12]for Thanksgiving and going, keeping a notebook.
[18:14]Like I'm not someone who does that.
[18:17]My stories that I tell from my life bubble up naturally.
[18:21]Like years later, I'll go, oh, that,
[18:23]I should talk about that on stage.
[18:25]Like I've been telling this story to friends
[18:28]as just a story.
[18:29]And I'm like, why didn't I think about turning,
[18:31]I've gotten better at like churning out material quicker,
[18:34]turn around and realizing when something funny happens
[18:37]and recognizing that could be something I write about.
[18:40]But the Grand Canyon thing was just strictly a trip
[18:42]for my birthday.
[18:43]And when I went on the trip,
[18:45]I was in the throes of getting like my first round
[18:48]of feedback about the book and it was a mess, you know.
[18:51]And it was like, you gotta figure this out.
[18:53]And I was like, oh shit.
[18:54]Like I don't know what I'm doing.
[18:56]And so that was adding to my mental state
[18:58]when I went into the Grand Canyon.
[18:59]I didn't say that in the book
[19:01]because it would have been too meta.
[19:02]But then when I, like a couple of months later
[19:05]I was dreading going back to work on the book.
[19:08]My deadline was approaching for a second draft
[19:10]and I was dreading it, but I just started thinking,
[19:13]God, what it needs is a really vivid story with stakes
[19:19]and place and, you know, all the five senses.
[19:23]Like as so much memory is so foggy
[19:26]and it's hard to write about memories
[19:28]that you're like barely sure you have a handle on.
[19:32]I learned how to do it, but yeah, it suddenly occurred to me
[19:36]like, oh, I could, what if I,
[19:38]and I just had a little idea and I asked my editor
[19:40]and she's like, kind of like that.
[19:43]Give it a try, which is really scary
[19:46]when someone goes give it a try.
[19:48]It's writing a book.
[19:49]I mean, I feel like I wrote three books
[19:51]because it was like almost a total,
[19:53]the second draft was a complete rewrite of the,
[19:55]it was like I started over.
[19:56]I mean, she, when they got my notes back
[19:58]it was like only one.
[20:00]after it was like, this is good.
[20:03]So it was rough, but yeah, I gave it a try.
[20:06]It took a long time, but what I turned in the next time
[20:10]was enough for her to go, yeah, this is working.
[20:13]We still have a ways to go,
[20:14]but this is the way you're telling the story is it lightens.
[20:19]The green cane and stuff lightens the heavier stuff
[20:22]from my life.
[20:23]And there was just, that was when I was down in the green cane
[20:26]and that is what I was experiencing mentally
[20:29]and all of it is connected to these stories from my past.
[20:33]And the metaphor of, I mean, it's like a writer's delight,
[20:37]you know, a canyon trip, a boat, a river, rocks,
[20:42]and it was all so fun to write about.
[20:46]That part was pretty easy.
[20:48]Awesome.
[20:49]Well, I thought it was great.
[20:50]I mean, I thought like the intersection of those two
[20:52]experiences and going back and forth worked really well.
[20:55]And it's something that you might not necessarily think to do.
[20:57]like, I wouldn't necessarily think to frame something that way.
[21:01]And yet it was so effective in the storytelling
[21:03]and even pushing both narratives long through the, you know,
[21:07]the river that pushing that is.
[21:10]You know, we had to go through it.
[21:11]Exactly.
[21:12]Exactly.
[21:13]We were like, oh, yeah, we were laughing.
[21:16]Yeah, we were laughing over.
[21:18]I would talk to my editor, you know, about the book.
[21:22]We would be finding ourselves accidentally speaking
[21:25]metaphors that were related to the flow.
[21:28]Oh, it flows really well here.
[21:30]It was like, I had to kind of pull back on it sometimes.
[21:32]I'm like, there's too much like it's getting obnoxious.
[21:35]But I had some people really be very encouraging.
[21:39]And I've never done this before.
[21:41]And they were like, it's okay to be on the nose sometimes
[21:46]and to hold our handle a little of the transitions
[21:48]between the canyon and the life chapters.
[21:51]I was very particular with those that it wasn't too heavy
[21:54]handed, but it was like a nod going in.
[21:57]Now we're talking about this.
[21:58]And weaving those together was pretty challenging,
[22:01]but it took a while to, I felt like I was wrestling a bear
[22:04]to the ground, like after a while.
[22:06]Just like, how do I fucking make this when, you know,
[22:09]I had to cut so much and you don't know.
[22:12]You think, oh, every time I sat down to work on the book again,
[22:15]I would be overwhelmed and dreading it and just sick.
[22:20]You know, it was like I was going back into, like,
[22:24]a Chernobyl, like, like, I don't want to go back in there.
[22:28]You know, and I would thrash and not want to do it.
[22:32]And then, but once you get going, you're on your way
[22:35]and you just, you have to do it.
[22:38]So what now that you've survived this process,
[22:41]which you made sound so enjoyable,
[22:42]what do you have coming next?
[22:44]Like, what are you up to from the comedy side?
[22:46]What do you up to from the writing side?
[22:48]It's been surreal.
[22:49]I've been anticipating this release of this book for so long.
[22:54]And I didn't think it would happen the way it has happened
[22:57]at all, obviously.
[22:58]And, but I'm healthy and my family is healthy.
[23:03]And by the way, I've been following you on Instagram.
[23:06]I'm so sorry about your mother-in-law.
[23:08]Thank you.
[23:09]Thank you so much.
[23:09]Very much sending you love.
[23:11]Thank you.
[23:12]I appreciate that.
[23:13]Anyway, sorry to bring that up there.
[23:14]No, it's fine.
[23:15]I'm glad.
[23:16]No, it's fine.
[23:17]I'm very open about it.
[23:18]Yeah.
[23:18]And I'm glad you are because people need a lot of people
[23:22]are going through this right now.
[23:23]And you're sharing helps other people.
[23:27]And even someone who I don't have anyone currently
[23:30]in a hospital suffering from COVID or anything like that.
[23:33]But reading about your experiences just undermines, you know,
[23:37]what this experience is really like.
[23:38]We can't forget it.
[23:39]It's still in the middle of it.
[23:42]It ain't over yet.
[23:43]It's very real.
[23:44]Yeah.
[23:45]Easy to start relaxing.
[23:46]And being like, oh, I'm not going to think about it today.
[23:48]And it's like, you know, anyway, back to me.
[23:52]Yes, back to you, guys.
[23:53]Sorry.
[23:54]That's OK.
[23:55]The pandemic has been made it very weird.
[23:57]I had anticipated a book tour.
[23:59]And then I was planning a stand-up tour for the fall.
[24:02]It started working late last year on all new,
[24:05]stand-up material, new jokes.
[24:08]I was going to start working on a solo show.
[24:11]Maybe inspired by the book.
[24:13]I was still figuring it out.
[24:15]But that all went to shit.
[24:17]And so now I've just been very lucky.
[24:20]I've been getting some writing jobs for TV shows
[24:23]that are in production during the pandemic.
[24:25]I've learned for a few specials.
[24:27]Like there's been some graduation special.
[24:29]You know, where Obama spoke, I didn't
[24:31]I didn't get the right for Obama personally.
[24:33]But I wrote for the special.
[24:34]And it's been really, I've been very grateful
[24:38]that the kind of TV writing I've done has put me in,
[24:43]like I guess I would you call it, the stable of writers
[24:46]who do comedy variety type shows
[24:49]that are actually more lightweight to produce during the pandemic.
[24:52]So I've been overwhelmed with work at times
[24:55]where it's like I can say no to things,
[24:57]which is not what I expected when all this started.
[25:00]I mean, Hollywood shut down.
[25:01]And we didn't know what was going to happen.
[25:03]So now I'm looking forward to that this book is out
[25:06]in the world.
[25:07]It's like a baby I've put out there
[25:09]in the little basket in the river
[25:12]and just sent it down the river and let it put it live.
[25:15]And now I really want to start working on I think
[25:19]just looking forward to post pandemic life
[25:24]when I do I'm starting to really miss performing
[25:27]in front of a live audience.
[25:28]And what does that look like when I get out there?
[25:31]And I feel like this book is such a new people have always
[25:34]known me to be a more like, I don't know how you a storyteller
[25:38]but like a little more sincere and hurt.
[25:40]I'm not afraid to get emotional and sappy and stuff.
[25:43]And I'm thinking about making my life performance
[25:47]a little more to return to those roots of wanting
[25:51]to just tell stories as opposed to punchline, punchline,
[25:54]punchline, punchline.
[25:55]And maybe being a little deeper on stage
[25:58]than I happen before because I feel like after writing
[26:00]this book, I can do anything.
[26:01]I don't know.
[26:02]No, you just gave some advice to authors,
[26:05]but maybe on where we're positive note.
[26:07]What advice would you have for somebody else out there
[26:10]who wants to write a memoir and maybe doesn't add a title?
[26:13]That's, you know, yes, it is very difficult
[26:16]to write a book of any kind, I think.
[26:18]Memoir is particularly challenging in its own ways
[26:21]because you're gonna have to dig deep
[26:24]and face things about yourself
[26:26]and potentially have a lot of fear.
[26:28]I had a lot of fear around what is my family gonna think?
[26:31]What are people who are in this book
[26:32]gonna think worrying a lot about hurting people?
[26:35]Some people don't worry about that kind of thing.
[26:37]I did, it all worked out okay so far.
[26:40]But as hard as it is, like I just said,
[26:44]now I feel like I can do anything
[26:45]and I do think it's worth it to learn a discipline
[26:49]like this of a really, when you take on a really big project,
[26:53]it requires such a commitment and a practice
[26:56]which is something that I had never really done
[26:59]in this way before and it's helped me figure out
[27:03]how to get over writer's block.
[27:05]And now I trust the process more,
[27:08]whereas before I would dread things and put it off
[27:11]and put it off and just be in a tailspin.
[27:14]And now I have faith of like,
[27:16]oh, it's okay to write for just 20 minutes in one day
[27:21]and that's all I could do, but I did something
[27:23]and not to beat myself up that the next day is another day.
[27:27]And tomorrow I might write for 10 hours straight, you know?
[27:31]And to have faith that it will come
[27:34]and also I think what I've learned is discovering
[27:39]how good your writing can get
[27:41]when you open yourself up to other people's feedback,
[27:44]especially when it's personal.
[27:46]Like I don't, you know, I'm usually a loner.
[27:48]I write for TV and I collaborate with other people
[27:50]but for my own stuff, I'm like,
[27:52]I don't want anybody helping me with my jokes
[27:54]and a lot of comedians collaborate, they help each other
[27:56]and I've always been like, no, I'm on my own.
[27:59]But now I'm like, man, you know,
[28:00]you're better with the help of others
[28:02]and other ears and it's worth that risk,
[28:06]personal risk to put, because if the goal is to have
[28:10]the book out there, you're gonna have to get used to it.
[28:12]You know, it's like, so sharing it with some people early on,
[28:16]I shared the book manuscript with some very close friends
[28:20]early on and then you have editors, you know, you have
[28:23]and then the process, it gets into more and more hands
[28:26]and you're getting more and more feedback
[28:28]and I learned to welcome it and love it because by the end
[28:31]I was like, God, I've sound so much smarter than I am
[28:35]because all these people helped, you know,
[28:37]as part of the process, which was amazing.
[28:40]So I think it just don't give up, that's my advice.
[28:43]Love it. Sarah, thank you.
[28:45]Thanks so much for coming on mom's time of time.
[28:47]Thank you for taking the time.
[28:49]I know you're in a crazy time right now
[28:51]and I just thank you for what you put out in the world.
[28:54]It's really beautiful and authentic.
[28:57]I love it. I'm a new fan.
[28:59]I'm so glad.
[29:00]I love doing what I do.
[29:01]I think you could probably tell,
[29:03]but this is like the highlight of my name.
[29:05]Honestly, I love my kids and we're having a great day,
[29:07]but I'm just saying like, you know,
[29:09]this is like, it's great.
[29:12]It's amazing. It's an escape from me too.
[29:14]So good. Thank you for saying that.
[29:17]Thank you so much.
[29:17]Okay, thank you. Bye bye.
[29:21]Thanks so much to firstbook.org for sponsoring
[29:24]this Labor Day book last.
[29:26]Please consider giving to firstbook.org
[29:29]to help their network of 475,000 educators
[29:32]serving children in need.
[29:34]Thanks for listening to this episode of
[29:35]Mom's Don't Have Time to Read Books.
[29:37]Don't forget to follow me on Instagram,
[29:39]at Zippy Owens, and at Mom's Don't Have Time to Read Books.
[29:42]Also sign up for my newsletter at zippyowens.com
[29:45]and sign up for my virtual book club
[29:46]and meet lots of authors on Zoom every other week.
[29:49]Thanks so much to Steve and Ryan at Textures Sound
[29:52]for the Sound Editing.
[29:53]And thank you to Morning Moon Productions
[29:55]for providing this fantastic intro and now trim music.