Robert Weintraub, THE DIVINE MISS MARBLE
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[1:49]Visit firstbook.org to help Robert Weintraub is the author of the Divine Miss Marble,
[1:56]a life of tennis, fame, and mystery. He has written about sports for slate, play,
[2:01]ESPN.com, The Guardian, Deadspin, and many more. He's the author of four books,
[2:05]including The Divine Miss Marble, and also The New York Times Bestseller No Better Friend.
[2:10]He currently lives in Decatur, Georgia, but grew up in the large shadow cast by Yankee Stadium
[2:16]in Ryan, New York. Well, thank you so much for coming on mom's don't have time to read books.
[2:20]I'm so excited to discuss Miss Marble with you. Oh, thank you for having me. I really appreciate it.
[2:24]Sure. So The Divine Miss Marble, a life of tennis, fame, and mystery, is like a deep, deep dive
[2:32]into Alice Marvel's life. And as I was reading it, I was thinking, what was it about her that kept
[2:39]you so interested? Like, why did you? You must have spent so much time on this book.
[2:43]What was it about her that captivated you so much? What made you write this book?
[2:48]Yeah, a lot of time and a lot of miles back when you could travel freely without worrying about
[2:53]things. But it was, I think, I was so impressed by Alice's
[2:58]figurativeness. The fact that she got hit with so many obstacles in her life constantly.
[3:04]And she always rose back up on her feet and came back stronger. She was a great player,
[3:10]came from nothing. She had to start playing on hard-scrabble cement courts and Golden Gate Park in
[3:17]San Francisco and really came from nothing to become this great champion. And then just on the verge
[3:22]of her breakthrough, she was diagnosed with tuberculosis and was in a sanitarium partially and
[3:27]was out of the sport for two full years. It came back from that to when what we would call today,
[3:32]the US Open, then it was called the US Nationals and became the biggest star in the sport.
[3:37]And from then on, it was one kind of body below after another, whether it was
[3:42]other battles with health problems that were debilitating, but she kept going through them and
[3:47]a lot of personal issues in her private life. And the war, which ended her career prematurely
[3:53]in World War II, which really kept her from being, you know, an all-time drape to everybody
[3:58]who would know about today. So I was just, you know, as it came across and discovered, yet one
[4:04]kind of pitfall after another that she managed to get back from that, you know, I just became
[4:09]so impressed with her and she kind of became, you know, I started to idolize her. So it made
[4:13]the travel in the long days and the archives, flowing through these dusty old, you know, my new
[4:18]scripts and materials. It was easy because I was fascinated by every stuff she took from then on.
[4:23]And you mentioned several points. At several points in the book, how maybe like this is what she
[4:28]recorded, but you couldn't verify it anywhere. Or there was no, you know, there was like,
[4:33]no backup. So you're kind of like, this is what she said. Let's, we'll have to take her in her
[4:37]words. But it sounded like you had a lot of skepticism about some of it. How did you end up
[4:42]feeling about her retelling of her story? And like, do you think it was all accurate? Like, what
[4:46]was, what really happened? Well, she, you know, where the facts met the legend, she liked the
[4:51]print the legend. So they say, you know, you have to, you have to put it in contact. She,
[4:55]she talked a lot about, you know, her this espionage mission that she went on during World War
[4:59]two at the behest of the army intelligence to reconnect with a former lover who was a Swiss banker
[5:06]who was working with the Nazis to kind of, you know, laundered their money. And her assignment
[5:11]was to go and find him in Switzerland, reconnected and find any evidence she could of this nefarious
[5:17]duty and then come back to America with it. But she says she found it and was shot for her troubles
[5:23]by a Russian double agent while being chased through the mountains of the Swiss Alps. Now,
[5:27]it's an incredible story and there's just enough sort of truth or unprovable falsehoods in it to
[5:33]make it at least, you know, sort of believable. However, as you say, I couldn't really verify much of
[5:39]it. And you have to understand, she was a woman who was at these incredible heights of fame
[5:43]during the Depression when everybody in the country was called, I'm going to knees really.
[5:48]But by the 60s, you know, she was a forgotten figure. She had very little money
[5:53]because she didn't get to earn any to her tennis greatness because it was all amateur in those
[5:57]days. And she was some, you know, forgotten figure living on the margins in Palm Desert, California.
[6:03]So I think there was a lot of, you know, this is who I was. And if I have to embellish my tail a
[6:08]little bit to get people, you know, to remember me a little bit more, then it's okay because I
[6:13]burned it. And I think she did earn it. And she always had this kind of maxim give the fans what
[6:19]they want, whether she was on the tennis court or whether she was singing in a nightclub,
[6:23]which she did or appearing on the radio, which she did all the time when she was at the height
[6:27]of her fame or, you know, designing fashions, which she also did quite a bit of her own and then
[6:33]sported them on the court and in public. You know, she did a lot of many different things in her
[6:38]life. And she always, you know, did it to please her public. And I think this tails of her
[6:43]were too daring to do may have gotten on the same lines. You know, exaggerated for effect,
[6:49]as we say. Yeah, it's so interesting because when you talk to memoir writers, right, there's this
[6:54]whole debate about what exactly is truth? Is it like your truth or what do you believe or is it your
[6:59]perception? But then someone like you comes in who's tries to make sense of all of the interpretation
[7:04]and try to like squeeze out all the facts. And it's, it's a tricky, it's a tricky job. It's sort
[7:09]of murky when you have to rely on people's memory or their depictions of themselves. I don't know.
[7:15]Well, you are not kidding. It is. You always have to sort of take the 50,000 foot view and it's not
[7:20]always easy because, you know, you want to believe the memoir writer and you want to go on what she
[7:26]says was sort of journey at all times. And, you know, memory is tricky of course. And there's a lot
[7:31]of, you know, sort of you never want to believe the person closest to the action because their
[7:37]memories are least reliable, right? But, you know, I found that for the most part, you know,
[7:42]she was accurate for what she remembered and talked about. She actually wrote two memoirs,
[7:46]another one came out sort of right at the height of her fame. And, you know, in both of them,
[7:52]there's a lot of truth in there. There's just a little bit extra involved that, you know, was
[7:56]done either to sell more books or to kind of, you know, give her what she thought was the true.
[8:02]You mentioned the sort of true life that she thought about in her head as opposed to the fact
[8:07]that you come across, you know, in the newspapers of the time. So, I tried to walk that
[8:12]title very carefully and, you know, not give her the benefit of the doubt at the same time,
[8:17]not crap all over what she saw in her own life, you know what I mean?
[8:22]Well, I mean, one of the things that you said that you drew you to her and what drew me to this
[8:27]story and too many sports stories, honestly, is the ability to sort of persevere. And like,
[8:32]what makes some people be able to overcome things in their life and flourish and use their physical
[8:39]gifts and translate it all with a, like, perfect combination of sort of mental toughness and physical
[8:44]agility to become like a huge sports star, whereas so many others. I mean, most people can't
[8:50]achieve that. And then when I was reading about Alice and even, you know, the rape scene at the
[8:54]the beginning of the book, which I couldn't really, I mean, I couldn't believe she, like, even
[8:58]if you just had that and then she had so many people die and dropped at next to her and like, one
[9:03]thing after another and then coming back from a two-year break, I mean, nowadays, we, you know,
[9:09]on the tennis store, we hear about like somebody gets surgery or like, joke of it, she's out for
[9:13]a little bit or something, right? But it's like, back then they didn't have all of that machinery
[9:19]to sort of rehabilitate people. So anyway, that was my long way of saying, first of all, what do you
[9:24]think make some people able to sort of overcome this type of adversity? And second, why do you
[9:29]think we're all just so drawn to stories like this? Well, you know, I wish I knew what
[9:35]we'll be able to do it. So I would do it myself. It's really incredible, as you say. I didn't even
[9:39]mention her sexual assault. Absolutely. And she lost her father when she was very young. I mean,
[9:44]it's just an incredible portrait of somebody who just refused to lose these a cliche. I hate to do
[9:51]that. But I mean, you know, we see it, you know, Michael Jordan's been in the news lately,
[9:55]just because of the documentary about him recently. And, you know, he's somebody else who...
[10:00]just manifested everything around him to use to a single-minded purpose, which was to win,
[10:05]win games. And I think Alice was maybe not quite that single-minded, but had the same sort of mindset,
[10:10]which was, you know, this is what I want to do. And not only am I not going to let things happen
[10:16]to me, that will derail me from that, I'm going to use them as fuel. And that's really rare.
[10:21]And it's incredibly admirable. And, you know, it's just something in the brain chemistry. I suppose
[10:26]that makes them these rare few trying for better or for worse than mostly for worse,
[10:33]something to overcome as something to push them day in and day out. You know, when she was laid up for
[10:38]two years, she got out of bed and began a really rigorous physical training program that we would
[10:43]take for granted today, obviously, but at the time was just unheard of. And people were like,
[10:48]why are you skipping rope every day and doing all these apathetic, you know, all this physical
[10:53]training shit? You know, I'm going to get back to the top. I'm going to do what it takes to be
[10:56]there. That's what I want to do in life. And you have to really admire somebody who, you know, set
[11:01]to side everything else like that and uses that kind of motivation to get to where they want to go.
[11:06]It's so rare and so hard to do that. As I say, that's what really, in the end, drew me to her,
[11:11]and to her story, it made it, you know, for all the things that she did that we might question
[11:15]the memoir writing, it was overwhelmed by the fact that my admiration for her was so deep
[11:22]because of her, her amazing comeback abilities. So this book felt very cinematic to me. It felt
[11:27]like I was, you know, reading the movie that I was going to eventually watch. Do you have an
[11:32]actress in mind who would play Alice if this were to become a movie? Wow. That's a great question.
[11:37]I suppose, first person just who reached the mind maybe is Charlie's Darren. Because she kind of
[11:43]has that combination of, you know, great physical presence as well as, you know, the kind of
[11:50]of beauty and kind of grace and all the other attributes that Alice had is, but it's very
[11:56]believable as somebody you could see, you know, running her opponent into the ground on the tennis
[12:01]court and then changing her clothes and singing in the nightclub, you know, or going out on the
[12:05]town, one of her many admirers. So I guess that there's probably no shortage of actresses you could
[12:11]make it happen, but Charlie's is the first one that we just reminded and obviously that would be
[12:14]great if it ever came to pass. But I'm not holding my breath. So fun to think about.
[12:21]So you write about all kinds of sports, not just tennis. Tell me about your like your love of
[12:26]sports yourself. Do you love to play sports? Like how did you end up becoming an avid sports writer
[12:31]essentially? Yeah. Well, I think I followed the traditional path, which was I played them
[12:36]avidly until I realized I was not very good at them. And it's certainly not good at them to
[12:40]continue playing beyond high school, at which point I switched over to covering them.
[12:45]You know, I worked in sports television for a long time and then when I had a family kind of
[12:49]transitioned into writing because there was a lot less travel in long hours. And, you know,
[12:53]I've just always been really fascinated by the history of sports and the sort of day and day
[12:58]out competition of sports and the outsized personalities that come with it and the things that we
[13:04]are talking about, the kind of people who wind up achieving great this have these incredible
[13:10]qualities that so few of us have. And I think most of us certainly myself included are drawn to
[13:16]that. And, you know, by writing about them, I get to sort of, you know, get to walk in their shoes
[13:21]a little bit. You know, I get to feel at least a little bit how it must have felt for Alice to be at
[13:26]her lowest at Lowe's and overcome all that to get to this incredible precipice. You know, and
[13:31]I think that's what draws a lot of us to sports in general is the fact that they get to see
[13:37]these athletes who are performing at this incredibly high level and knowing how they got there,
[13:43]each of them with their individual stories intact, you know, it's really something that's fascinating.
[13:47]It's a trauma that never ends. And, you know, I think that when we get sports back someday,
[13:51]hopefully that will, you know, certainly continue to be the case and that I'll keep covering it until
[13:57]the day I die. I can't get enough of it really. My husband is such a sports fan and this quarantine,
[14:04]I swear, I think that's been the hardest part for him. I can never hear anyone else. He's like,
[14:08]I miss sports so much. It becomes part of your everyday life. I mean, it really does. We can talk
[14:14]in the abstract about, you know, how seeing these great athletes perform is so much of it, but it's
[14:19]also just a daily thing that's part of your life. You know, it becomes as much as part of your day
[14:24]is, you know, brushing your teeth or walking the dog, you know, turning on the ballgame and seeing
[14:28]how your team did. And when you take that away, you had to know where, really, you know, that's very
[14:33]tough till we're coming for all of us. So in a way we're all out with Smarberwood right now,
[14:37]and we have to overcome this body below, but we'll get there. We'll get back to the height,
[14:41]I'm sure. That's true. I feel like it's a double whammy with sports because you have the community
[14:47]of sort of shared rooting for someone, right? So like to be a fan, you're a part of something. And
[14:54]I feel like it's hard these days to feel a part of anything, particularly now. And then to
[14:58]have that taken away, like, what does it mean if you're, you know, I don't know, Denver Broncos fan
[15:04]when like nobody's playing or, you know, I don't know. Anyway, I'll just say we've had a lot of,
[15:10]you know, we've had a lot of tennis channel reruns on the TVs around here. So I'm ready for some
[15:18]new matches. Yeah, exactly. These live drama is missing from those. The matches very big
[15:23]great, but when you know who won already, it kind of takes away from a lot of the pleasure
[15:27]unfortunately. So yeah, I'm with you. I'm dying for the return of live sports. And, you know,
[15:32]I'm a big New York Yankees fan and Cincinnati Bengals fan. And, you know, it's the part of your
[15:38]identity after a long time, especially as you say, you become a community with your fellow fans. And,
[15:44]you know, to have that ripped away from you, you start to question who you are a little bit.
[15:48]So the sooner sports can get back and kind of make us all whole again, it'll be a good day.
[15:53]It's true. So you've just finished. How long did it take, by the way, to do all this research
[15:58]and write this book? It must have been a while. Yeah, I mean, two year range from beginning then,
[16:05]including the sort of pre-production, as they say, you know, kind of figure out if it was really a book.
[16:09]And then once it was and that had a sort of way to tell it, you know, there were a lot of ways to
[16:14]go with it. But I had to kind of insert myself into the story a little bit more than they usually
[16:19]would be inclined to do because of the mystery involved. And because of, you know, so much of it
[16:24]is kind of trying to figure out what exactly Alice did and did not do. So I turned it a little bit
[16:31]into a bit of a mystery story, or the dogged detective on the case of figuring out what Alice's
[16:36]life and what happened was real and what's not real. So that took a little bit longer than usual.
[16:40]But, you know, about the two year range, which, you know, it's pretty standard for me for
[16:45]turning a book around, you know, some people take a lot longer. Other people who write a lot faster
[16:50]than I do, and the stuff can crank them out in less time. But for me, it's about two year,
[16:55]two year range. So do you know what your next two years are allocated to at this point?
[17:02]Great question. There's nothing definitely set in stone, so I probably shouldn't talk about it.
[17:06]But more interesting tales of a fascinating figure. So let's put that way, not necessarily
[17:11]involved in tennis, but, you know, another rich human being, let's say that.
[17:16]Awesome. Do you play tennis, by the way? Yeah, absolutely. I love to play. You know, I don't
[17:21]play as much as I used to with with the family and the wonky knees. But I definitely enjoy playing.
[17:27]And I live in Atlanta where there's a huge, you know, doubles kind of league theme. So I've
[17:33]played for many years in the in the doubles leagues around Atlanta. And it's great. It's, you know,
[17:38]the kind of thing. I hope to get back to you when we can all shake hands over the net again.
[17:41]That's for sure. Yeah, exactly. I love tennis. I feel like it's like you're having a conversation
[17:46]when you're not even talking. You know, it's so fun. Like, I don't know. That's what I love about it.
[17:51]Yeah. Every stroke is another, is another criticism or a declaratory statement. Yes. Yes.
[17:58]So do you have any advice to aspiring authors? Boy, that's an open question, I tell you. Yeah.
[18:05]Well, I would say, you know, certainly, if you think something is worthy of a story,
[18:10]it's to be told that book lengths do it. You know, I mean, that I was like, I started in television.
[18:15]And I always, you know, it was a big reader. And I always thought I could write a book, but
[18:19]you know, at no point did I ever say to myself, well, it was just go ahead and do it until the
[18:23]time came. And somebody encouraged me and said, you can do it. And I said, yeah, you're probably
[18:27]right. I can't. So, you know, there's no sort of, you know, alternative to just sitting down and
[18:33]doing it and banging that out. And I would certainly say if you're writing a book length, you know,
[18:38]treat us there, don't approach it. Don't think about the big picture that gets too overwhelming.
[18:42]Just think about, you know, that day's writing and what's, you know, this small little chunk that
[18:47]you can bite off and finish in the near future and keep your goals small and easily attainable in
[18:52]that way. After a lot of those goals are achieved, you find yourself with a big goal,
[18:58]achieves as well, a big book all ready to be published. So it takes some doing, but it's,
[19:03]it's not beyond any of you out there, I'd say that for sure.
[19:06]I think that's good life advice in general, you know, anything, because I'm overwhelming unless
[19:10]you break it down to small pieces. Exactly. That's the best, the best way to go. As you say,
[19:16]hour by hour, because if you look at the big picture, boy, you'll just bury your head under
[19:21]covers and stay in bed forever. Yes, particularly these days, particularly at the thought of
[19:26]perhaps not even having school in the fall, which, oh my gosh. Anyway, how old are your kids?
[19:31]Yeah, I have a 12 year old girl and a 10 year old boy. So they are, you know, enjoying the idea of
[19:36]not going back to school very much, but I'm dreading it. So like most people, you know, take on
[19:44]get more of a parent slash teacher role this fall. But, you know, it's across, we all have to bear it
[19:49]looks like. Yeah, I have a 13 year old boy girl twins and then I have a five and seven year old.
[19:55]So my little my little kids are are fine, but my twins, I mean, my daughter, my 13 year
[20:00]girl daughter misses her friend so much that she's willing to like sit in school all day
[20:03]if she gets staying out with them so anyway that's the other thing the social component
[20:08]this is beyond the dumbing down of our kids just terrible for these kids not to be able
[20:14]to see their friends every single day you know it's tough to feel bad for them but I don't know
[20:19]I don't know I can't get them sick either so it's a rock in a hard place I know I keep thinking
[20:24]this is probably the ideal time in my own personal life for this to have happened you know where
[20:28]I'm happy I'm happy like not really being that social and like getting all my sort of
[20:34]socializing done over the internet by talking to friends and family and just like hanging out
[20:38]with my kids and being very settled but at so many other parts of my life this would have been a
[20:42]total disaster when things were up in the air when I was trying to meet somebody here when I was
[20:48]like anyway whatever I'm going on tantrum here it was it has a writer I'm a natural
[20:54]shut in anyway so you know this is right in my alley so but that's an social distance thing
[20:58]isn't a problem but all the other aspects of it are just terrible so yeah sooner or
[21:03]it's over the better absolutely yeah well thank you thanks so much for chatting with me today
[21:08]and thanks for the entertainment of your book I will channel Ms. Marvel as I'm playing tennis
[21:14]later today and thank you for you the resilience that she had so thanks for having me thanks
[21:19]for short you know that was her big thing is she chucked aside the skirts and put on the shorts
[21:23]and changed the game forever so that would definitely advise you to not play the game in
[21:29]cast length skirts if you can avoid it you know I actually wouldn't mind playing tennis in a
[21:33]cast like I love long skirts like if that's that I'm wearing a tennis skirt now I feel like
[21:38]and I hate shorts so I I don't know I feel like I should have been born in a different era I
[21:43]would have been happy with like you were a pretty Alice marble type yeah exactly so anyway
[21:49]okay well maybe one of these days we'll meet in person and play some tennis and all the rest
[21:55]so no doubt love to have a conversation over the net with you at any time so that's great all right
[22:01]well thanks so much thank you very much I appreciate the time okay take care bye bye
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