Anne Helen Petersen, CAN'T EVEN
[0:08]Hi, I'm Zibi Owens, and you're listening to the award-winning podcast, Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books.
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[0:53]Hi, everybody.
[0:54]So today, the sponsor for my podcast is my other podcast.
[0:58]I am launching Moms Don't Have Time to Lose Weight.
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[1:07]It features women talking to other women about their journeys of their bodies and getting tips and
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[1:29]So if you will fall into that category like I do and so many of us come join us, the doors open.
[1:35]And Helen Peterson is the author of Can't Even How Millennials Became the Burnout Generation.
[1:41]She's a Buzzfeed culture writer and she had a viral article on Millennial Burnout, which was Buzzfeed
[1:47]news's most read article of 2019 shared from everyone, from Andrew Yang to Ariana Huffington.
[1:53]Anne writes about the forces that have created Millennial's permanent state of exhaustion,
[1:58]including how the gig economy, constant access to email and Slack, and the rise of the
[2:03]side hustle have made working only 40 hours a week a distant fantasy.
[2:07]In the middle of in-between rather my recording this episode and recording this introduction,
[2:13]she's actually already sold another book, which I don't know when that will be coming out,
[2:17]but it's called Out of Office, The Big Problem and Bigger Promise of Working From Home.
[2:22]Oh, it looks like fall 2021. So that'll be her next book. Anyway, enjoy the episode.
[2:27]Hi. Hi. How are you? Good. How are you? I'm good. Thanks for coming. I'm obviously on
[2:32]time to read books. Of course. Oh my gosh. Look at your beautiful library. Thank you. I'm
[2:37]proud to enjoy. Great that you can have it as your background in your Zoom call so that everyone
[2:42]more people can see it. True. The rest of this pandemic, I was driven out on Long Island and I
[2:48]got a, you know, ordered a bookcase because I had nothing to showcase books at all. And this is like
[2:53]my whole built-in library. It's like, what a way to tell this month. But anyway, looking
[2:58]congratulations on can't even. I saw you were all dulled up on Instagram, which is always nice
[3:04]to be able to honestly the first time that I've like done the full deal since May when I had to do
[3:11]like a video appearance for something for like an Adobe conference or something. And I
[3:17]like I didn't recognize myself. I was like, what is happening? But it's good. I actually think I
[3:22]should like do it for no reason a little bit more often because it like reminds you like
[3:26]reminds me of a different face that I have. Well, tell listeners please what can't even
[3:35]is about and how it was based off of an article. And what made you want to write it? And I
[3:41]know it flowed out of you. I know you talked about it in the book and just like blah, blah, blah,
[3:44]blah, blah, blah, blah. I came out of your fingers. But, you know, tell us a little more about how
[3:47]it all gets started. So I was really, really burnt out. This was the fall of 2018 leading up to
[3:55]and then after the midterm elections. And I had like, I think I had been burnt out for really
[4:01]long time. It's just that I refused to recognize what I was feeling as being burnt out. I was like
[4:05]this is just how I work. And but I had like reached a point where I was like getting mad at my
[4:11]editors and like crying. And one of my editors is like, you're burnt out. You need to take some time. And
[4:15]I was like, now, like I had taken like two days Monday and Tuesday before Thanksgiving. Like, of course,
[4:22]I didn't need any more time. And the thing that I thought was wrong with me is I like couldn't figure
[4:27]out how to do my errands. Like the, you know, they're just the piddly stuff at the bottom of your
[4:31]to do this. I just couldn't do it. And I was like, I'll research that. I'll figure out what's
[4:36]going on with that. And as that research shows, like, oh, yeah, I've totally burnt out like all
[4:40]of it all roads led to burn out. By the way, the things that you mentioned in the book on your
[4:45]to-do list that you weren't getting to, they don't even make it onto my list.
[4:50]Like the things you're beating yourself up about, I'm like re-soling my shoes. Like, what? No.
[4:56]Like it's not even like in the realm of possibilities. So the fact that you've been
[5:00]had it on a list, I think was a step up. Well, it was like, I mean, like the cop, like, I love
[5:06]these boots. Like, I want to just wear these boots for the rest of my life, right? Like, I just,
[5:10]they need to get resold. Otherwise, the copler gives you dirty looks when you bring them in,
[5:15]right? I don't want the scorn of the copler. But, you know, I all signs pointed to burn out,
[5:20]but still, like, the diagnosis of burnout as it was clinically described did not match like what I
[5:26]was feeling exactly. Because they, like clinically, they usually describe it as like collapse,
[5:31]right? And I wasn't collapsing. I was still going. And so I wanted to try to figure out
[5:36]how to describe, maybe expand that definition to describe a more societal and sort of just clinical
[5:43]diagnosis. And so I try to look at my own life and where I had learned to work all the time and
[5:49]really internalize that ethos and then extrapolated a little bit more until like the rest of my
[5:55]generation. But it was pretty, like, it was a personal essay that like was long. And I thought that
[6:01]it would function like a lot of personal essays, you know, a couple of 10,000 people would read it.
[6:06]That, like, that was out of case, seven million people read it. And so when I thought of like the
[6:13]idea that I could expand it into a book, it was really straightforward to expand it both in terms of
[6:18]historical rooting, right? To look like, okay, what happened in the economy and in changes in
[6:25]child-grained patterns? I'm like, all that sort of thing in the post-war period, you know,
[6:30]that affected our parents and burnt out boomer parents. And then also expand it way past myself and
[6:36]try to de-center that like white middle class experience that I had.
[6:40]You talked in the book about a lot of your own, as you mentioned, personal stuff. It started
[6:45]as a personal essay, but then you sprinkled in just a lot of experiences of your own, like your
[6:50]parents divorced. So tell me about how that sort of impacted, how that exemplified the sort of
[6:56]burnout, how it had the culture led to have systemic things in the environment and culture led to
[7:03]burnout culture. Yeah, I read this really interesting book by Catherine Newman. It was published in,
[7:08]like I think the early 90s. And it was about like all of these different ways that boomer
[7:14]family is often trying to compensate for ways that they were falling out of the middle class.
[7:20]So so many boomer families, they had grown up in homes that had become middle class for the
[7:24]first time, right? In the post-war period. And then just as boomers were entering the workplace in
[7:30]the 1970s, that economic stability started to disintegrate through a series of rolling
[7:37]recessions. And so you have these families. She, like, she follows this one family. I remember the
[7:42]had been like Wall Street banker got laid off, but like still lived at that level, right? Even though
[7:49]he was laid off because they didn't know how to live any other way, but middle class and went
[7:53]into like significant credit card debt. And I think that story will be familiar to anyone who's had
[7:59]financial insecurity, but like, does it like cannot fathom not living the way that they're living?
[8:07]And I don't mean like lavishly necessarily, but just having like the accoutrements of middle class
[8:12]lifestyle. So a house, right, that you own instead of rent. I mean, depending if you're living in
[8:17]a city, this is different, but a house at like cars, right, like new clothes and gadgets and stuff
[8:24]for your kids, computers. And there are ways that you could be so much more thrifty and really
[8:30]decrease your cost of living footprint. But that is unfathomable once you've come to that middle
[8:36]it's a real psychological burden to like really to shift classes to go downward. And so to
[8:42]connect this to my parents divorce, she has this whole chapter that is about what happened to women
[8:48]who got divorced during this period because they have incredible downward mobility because a lot
[8:54]of these women, these boomer women stopped their jobs. This was one of the first generations that
[8:59]went en masse into the job market, but then many of them had taken a step back from the job market
[9:05]in order to raise their children, right? And allowed their husbands careers to take
[9:11]precedence. And so when they get divorced, you know, whether the kids are in elementary school or
[9:15]in junior high, the income, you know, the wife doesn't necessarily have a career and can't necessarily
[9:22]like restart her career where she left it or didn't have one in the first place, the husband
[9:27]still has a career and can just continue going on, right? And they're living in two different houses,
[9:32]but they have to pay rent for two different spaces. And so like the income level of that secondary
[9:41]house, because usually the kids would either be primarily like custody with their mom or splitting
[9:47]custody, but the experience of being a kid in one of those households, it just teaches you
[9:53]as a millennial, as a gen X, or like it teaches you a lot of lessons about, oh, well, this is what
[10:00]if you don't have a plan for yourself at all times, right?
[10:03]If you don't know how to work at all times,
[10:06]like at any moment, this marriage could go under
[10:09]and you could like find yourself financially afloat.
[10:13]And I certainly internalized that idea
[10:14]and I tried to expand on it in the book.
[10:17]So do you feel like I know at the end you say
[10:21]you don't wanna give an overwhelming list of tips, right?
[10:25]And that those are kind of useless also.
[10:28]But I feel like what, like you do such a good job
[10:32]of outlining the hurdles, right?
[10:34]Like, and I feel like you did it with some,
[10:37]so you're sort of like pissed off writing this thing.
[10:39]I felt like I could like you were like not venting
[10:43]cause it was so well articulated,
[10:45]but it was more of just like you're angry
[10:47]like at the situation.
[10:48]And you feel that there is sort of no way out
[10:52]unless everybody changes everything.
[10:56]And that's tough.
[10:57]So what do you think can actually help if,
[11:01]or is it, are you doomed?
[11:03]No, I don't think we're doomed.
[11:05]And I don't think that every, like every last thing
[11:08]about our lives have to change.
[11:09]Like we don't have to like leave our hearts, right?
[11:11]I just think that like there are
[11:15]palliative things that we can do in our own lives
[11:18]to decrease our own personal burnout.
[11:20]Like you can institute, try to institute better borders
[11:23]between the workspace and the rest of your life.
[11:27]You can have better digital hygiene in terms of like,
[11:31]I do like Twitter off my phone on the weekend
[11:33]or whatever, but all of those things are band-aids.
[11:35]Ultimately, if you're fighting against this larger system,
[11:39]that is broken, right?
[11:40]Cause it is always going to be the larger,
[11:42]the stronger force.
[11:43]Like the burnout inherent to that system
[11:47]is going to swallow you no matter like what,
[11:51]you know, armory you put on to resist it.
[11:54]So I think that like there are those smaller things
[11:57]that we can each individually do, but as a society,
[11:59]I hope that that anger and that frustration is contagious
[12:03]because I think that as millennials,
[12:05]like we have been taught to, despite our reputation
[12:09]to kind of put our head down and be like,
[12:10]okay, well, I guess I just need to work all the time
[12:13]because it's just my life.
[12:14]And instead we can look at our lives and say,
[12:18]it doesn't have to be this way.
[12:20]How can we, together, say that loudly?
[12:24]And then also decide that we want change.
[12:26]Not just incremental change, but like societal change.
[12:29]So what's something in your dream,
[12:31]in your dream scenario here,
[12:33]not to like put you on the spot,
[12:34]that if society were to change,
[12:36]and I know you reference everything from like pensions,
[12:38]social security and like parental burnout,
[12:41]like I know there's a lot of stuff.
[12:44]What's like one thing maybe that could happen
[12:47]that could make things better?
[12:48]Like just mandatory paternity leave, right?
[12:51]I think that like, you know,
[12:52]we don't even have mandatory maternity leave,
[12:55]but the chapter on parenting burnout,
[12:57]I think anyone who reads the book will see
[12:59]just how angry all of these moms are.
[13:03]Like they're just like so tired and so angry.
[13:06]And there's a lot of resentment.
[13:08]And a lot of it has to do with the fact that like,
[13:10]you're doing all of these things that society has told you
[13:13]to do to be a good mom.
[13:15]And then you also just feel like in your home,
[13:17]in your heterosexual home,
[13:19]that it is really difficult to find anything close
[13:23]to an equitable labor split,
[13:25]even with the most progressive of husbands,
[13:28]so the most feminist of husbands.
[13:29]And so I think that one thing that has been shown
[13:32]in other countries and to some extent in the US
[13:35]to actually sustain equitable splits of labor
[13:38]in the long term is if a father stays home
[13:42]for an extended period of time by himself with kids.
[13:47]Because what that does is it teaches fathers everything
[13:51]that has to be done in order to take care of children
[13:54]and run the household.
[13:55]So that is something on a societal level
[13:58]that we could do to pretty radically reorganize
[14:00]the way that labor is split in the home,
[14:02]that it could have ramifications like across society.
[14:06]And then also like, you know,
[14:09]government subsidized and funded affordable childcare
[14:12]would be a huge thing.
[14:13]Like every parent I know is stressed out
[14:16]about finding reliable care.
[14:17]This is even pre-COVID, right?
[14:19]Reliable, affordable care.
[14:21]It's really, really hard.
[14:23]And, you know, other countries have shown it's doable
[14:26]and it takes a huge burden off of parents.
[14:29]I'm still like trying to digest the idea
[14:31]of mandatory paternity leave
[14:33]because, you know, this will sound very anti-feminist
[14:36]of me, but as a mom of four,
[14:39]like I actually wanted to be with my kids.
[14:42]Oh yeah, like I wouldn't wanna have,
[14:45]I don't know that I could've been like,
[14:47]all right, honey, I'm taking off.
[14:49]Yeah, two weeks postpartum.
[14:52]I don't know what I'm gonna need.
[14:53]Oh yeah, no, like two weeks postpartum.
[14:55]Mostly it would be like a lot of places that do this.
[14:57]It's like maybe for like from year one to year two
[15:01]or year one to 18 months, like, you know,
[15:04]at some point or 18 months to two,
[15:06]like it doesn't have to be like in those early times.
[15:09]It's more just like it teaches like that.
[15:13]And you also like, it's not like the mom necessarily
[15:15]would have to go back to work
[15:16]if or if they don't work in a traditional setting
[15:19]or something like that.
[15:20]But they can do anything that they want
[15:23]as long as the mail is primarily responsible
[15:26]for, you know, keeping the child alive.
[15:29]Yeah, and not like call it babysitting.
[15:31]Yeah, exactly.
[15:32]Yeah, you're not babysitting your own kid.
[15:35]Right.
[15:35]You know, I think even in your introduction is interesting
[15:39]because you were saying like,
[15:40]you don't even expect jobs to last.
[15:42]Right.
[15:43]You don't have the expectations that were for so many
[15:46]of us assumptions, right?
[15:49]Now you don't even have them.
[15:50]I feel like I don't know how you would maintain any sort
[15:54]of like positive outlook and inner equilibrium
[15:58]if you felt that there was no true hope.
[16:03]And I know there are things decidedly we can do,
[16:05]but aside from you getting up and running for president,
[16:08]which maybe no, no, no, no, no, no.
[16:13]I feel like there's still potential for joy
[16:17]and the context of societal like frustration.
[16:23]Right.
[16:24]And I think that, right.
[16:25]I mean, you have to like, I don't know.
[16:27]I'm feeling like I'm trying to make you feel better
[16:28]because I felt like you were so upset in the books.
[16:31]And now I feel like I'm like answering your upsetness.
[16:34]Well, I think that the problem with burnout
[16:36]is it's swallow's joy, right?
[16:38]It swallows all of those moments that like,
[16:41]for me, you know, I knew how to find like,
[16:44]kind of serendipitous moments of happiness
[16:47]like in the corners of my life and that sort of thing.
[16:49]And I think that like both my exhaustion
[16:51]and then like the way that we come to rely on our phones
[16:55]and like Instagram as crutches during those moments,
[16:57]like it takes your best intentions, right?
[17:00]And cannibalizes them.
[17:02]And that is the frustration.
[17:03]Like, you know, in I was very careful
[17:06]to always ask all the parents that I interviewed for the book.
[17:09]I was like, you know, tell me all these things
[17:11]you're frustrated about,
[17:12]but also tell me the thing that makes you so happy about parenting.
[17:15]And I think a lot of them were like,
[17:17]there are all these things that I love about being a parent.
[17:20]And I love about my kids.
[17:22]But because of all of these other stresses,
[17:24]all of these other instabilities,
[17:26]it makes it so hard to focus on those things.
[17:29]Yeah.
[17:30]So what I think a burnout cure does, right,
[17:33]is it offers relief from those sources of precarity
[17:39]that rob you of your ability to like feel just genuine,
[17:43]simple joy.
[17:44]So let's speaking of genuine, simple joy.
[17:47]You must have had some of that when you saw
[17:49]that you had seven million views of your article.
[17:52]I mean, it was very gradual, right?
[17:54]Like, is it like accumulated over the course of several months?
[17:58]But yeah, it was, it's a weird thing to go viral
[18:01]on that level.
[18:02]Like, you know, one thing about burnout and about,
[18:06]I think what a lot of millennials are experienced is like,
[18:09]there's not a lot of space to like feel
[18:11]even that those ups and downs, right?
[18:14]Like the way I tried to describe burnout is that everything,
[18:17]the highs and lows, like vacations, non vacations,
[18:20]like everything flattens.
[18:22]And there's a lot that bears similarity
[18:24]to some symptoms of depression,
[18:26]but like also like if you're just trying to get through
[18:29]every day, it's hard to feel catharsis.
[18:32]Like I think back with fully all the time
[18:35]about my time in college,
[18:38]when you would like study so hard for a final
[18:42]and then take the final and then you'd be like,
[18:44]and I'm done, right?
[18:46]Like just that incredible release.
[18:47]And you'd always get sick.
[18:48]I would always get sick.
[18:49]I would always get sick.
[18:50]Because your body is like letting down its defenses.
[18:54]And then I would go home.
[18:56]And like this is, you know, I don't very like
[19:00]verify privileged experience to like be able to go home.
[19:02]And I didn't have to work over break.
[19:04]I would just like sleep so much and recover.
[19:07]And then it would be just enough of like a long enough
[19:10]of a break and a total break
[19:13]that I would come back to school and be just so excited
[19:16]to be back, right?
[19:17]You really have that moment of incredibly hard work,
[19:21]achievement and catharsis, recovery and return.
[19:26]And how many of us have anything approximating that
[19:29]in our lives, right?
[19:30]Well, I will tell you, I got divorced.
[19:34]I don't know, six years ago and I or something like that.
[19:36]But, and I, you know, I split custody.
[19:39]I have more of it.
[19:40]But anyway, I have every other long weekend.
[19:42]I don't have my kids.
[19:43]And so in my head, I know that I have a point now
[19:47]where I actually can relax and get sick and go all that stuff
[19:52]which I didn't have for years and years.
[19:54]And my oldest kids are 13.
[19:56]And no, I guess I wasn't divorced six years ago.
[19:58]Anyway, it doesn't matter.
[19:59]Point is.
[20:00]that was introduced into my life after many years
[20:03]of stay at home parenting.
[20:04]And I was like, oh my gosh, I finally have this little break
[20:08]from the rain story for just a few days
[20:11]so I can catch my breath.
[20:12]And I found that I came back as like a far stronger mom, right?
[20:15]And now, so if we're gonna like put our little wish list
[20:18]out there for how to like help society,
[20:21]I feel like, I don't think mandatory divorce is the answer.
[20:25]I know, and that's the problem, right?
[20:27]It's like, if the only way for you to get those moments
[20:30]is like, is a divorce, right?
[20:31]Like, that shows that something is wrong.
[20:35]That's true, that's true.
[20:36]But, you know, more evolved couples perhaps
[20:39]could have had, you know, some sort of, I don't know.
[20:42]I think you're right, there's some.
[20:45]I'm just gonna, I'll just get away from my own situation.
[20:47]I don't know.
[20:48]Having the breaks now has been absolutely life saving to me.
[20:51]And I don't think I could even have
[20:53]this whole like creative pursuit in my life
[20:55]and just all this stuff without the sleep
[20:57]and the regeneration, so.
[20:59]Totally.
[21:00]Anyway, not to like brag, like, oh, you're not, you know,
[21:02]and you're not alone.
[21:03]And I think like, in order to have that regeneration
[21:07]and also like other parents have told me that like,
[21:10]they want to be better and more patient parents, right?
[21:13]But if you're so tired, you're just kind of at this baseline
[21:15]of annoyance and you don't like this sort of parent
[21:17]that you become.
[21:19]And that's hard, right?
[21:21]I find that sometimes in my relationship,
[21:23]I'm like, I'm not being the partner
[21:25]that I want to be right now.
[21:26]So how do I try to fix that?
[21:28]Usually it's taken nap.
[21:30]I remember in college when I would get so worn out
[21:37]and so tired and studying all this stuff.
[21:38]And I'd be like, should I take a nap?
[21:40]Or should I go to the gym?
[21:41]Should I take a nap?
[21:42]Or should I go to the gym?
[21:43]Yes.
[21:44]And I was like, I don't know.
[21:45]I only have 35 minutes.
[21:46]Well, now I only have 32 minutes.
[21:49]Well, let me try to take a nap.
[21:50]Oh, no, well, now I can't sleep.
[21:52]Well, and that's the thing.
[21:54]This is such a great example of like the optimized way
[21:58]that we approach our time is when you're like, OK,
[22:01]I have 30 minutes to nap.
[22:02]That's the only time I have a nap.
[22:04]And it becomes such an over-determined like,
[22:06]I have to nap right now that I can't nap ever, right?
[22:10]Because you're like, I have to do this thing right now.
[22:11]It doesn't work.
[22:12]It's just like that to me.
[22:14]This is why I never nap.
[22:16]This is literally it.
[22:17]Unless I am so tired that I somehow just basically fall over.
[22:23]Or I'm like reading to a kid.
[22:24]And I'm reading to myself.
[22:26]And next thing I know, like all the legs are on.
[22:28]And I'm sad to sleep.
[22:29]But yes, that's right.
[22:30]When your body tells you, your body forces you to say,
[22:33]like, it doesn't matter if you have time for this.
[22:36]Right, nap time.
[22:39]Ready or not.
[22:39]Here we go.
[22:40]Oh my gosh.
[22:41]Well, that's funny.
[22:43]So you have can't even out there, which is so exciting.
[22:47]What are your ambitions now?
[22:50]Do you want to be political, not necessarily the president?
[22:55]Do you want to try to affect societal change?
[22:57]Do you want to keep writing?
[22:58]Do you want to focus on this?
[23:00]Like, where do you think?
[23:02]Yeah, no.
[23:03]I'm not a policy maker.
[23:04]Like, I like reading other people's policy suggestions.
[23:07]But like, that's not my expertise.
[23:10]Like, people have a lot of expertise in that area and familiarity.
[23:13]And I am more like my training as my PhD is in media studies.
[23:18]Like, I just, I love reading history and synthesizing ideas
[23:23]and trying to figure out what's going on, right?
[23:26]Like, why are we acting the way that we are acting?
[23:29]I guess you could call that like examining ideologies
[23:32]of a given moment, that sort of thing.
[23:34]I think that my next project is going to do with work
[23:38]from home and like the new, the brave new world
[23:40]of hybrid working from home and how you can prevent it
[23:43]from like sucking your life into it.
[23:46]Like, it could be like a real way to even become more burnt out
[23:51]or it can help us think about how to reorient our lives away
[23:56]from work, which might be revelatory,
[23:58]but still trying to think through some of the first steps
[24:01]on that.
[24:02]Oh, I love that.
[24:02]I actually have found with so much more stuff going on at home
[24:06]that all of the stress of logistics and running around
[24:09]has like to kind of big bird enough.
[24:11]I have all this extra time and energy now
[24:14]that I'm not like racing from place to place
[24:16]and figuring out how to get all my kids there.
[24:18]Now it's like, okay, right.
[24:20]Well, and I used to travel so much for work
[24:23]and for speaking stuff and that sort of thing.
[24:25]And like, I think for a lot of people
[24:28]who have been slowed down by the pandemic generally,
[24:31]like obviously when we can start moving around a little bit,
[24:34]I'm like going on a vacation, like having like our actual
[24:38]vacation as soon as possible.
[24:40]But like I can't see myself returning
[24:42]to that level of franticness.
[24:44]And that's, I mean, it's one of the small super linings
[24:47]of all of this, I think is some perspective.
[24:49]It's true.
[24:50]Do you have any advice for aspiring authors?
[24:53]I mean, this is what people always say.
[24:56]But I really think like sometimes you get really precious
[24:59]about writing and are like, okay, I have to be like
[25:02]in the right place and it has to be like the right kind
[25:05]of writing and you tell like it needs to be good
[25:08]as it comes out and I am a big proponent
[25:10]of just burping on the page and then coming back
[25:13]and editing.
[25:13]So, write a lot.
[25:15]Awesome.
[25:15]Well, thank you.
[25:16]Thanks for coming in.
[25:17]Well, it's no time to read books and for our little,
[25:19]like the therapy session over anger and ID and
[25:22]that's a divorce and all of that.
[25:24]And congratulations again on your book coming out.
[25:27]Thank you so much.
[25:28]This is great.
[25:29]Okay.
[25:30]Okay.
[25:31]All right.
[25:33]I hope you enjoyed today's episode.
[25:34]I know I enjoyed recording it.
[25:37]Don't forget to check out my new podcast.
[25:39]Moms don't have time to lose weight.
[25:41]Pretty soon.
[25:42]Moms won't have time to listen to podcasts
[25:44]and check out the Instagram community that goes along with it
[25:48]and if you would like to join, please request to join.
[25:51]It's for anyone who wants to feel body better
[25:53]in their body tomorrow than they do today
[25:55]and it's a supportive group of like-minded souls
[25:58]who just need the community to achieve their goals.
[26:01]Moms don't have time to lose weight.
[26:03]Thanks for listening to this episode of Moms Don't Have Time
[26:05]to Read Books.
[26:06]Don't forget to follow me on Instagram
[26:08]at zibbowens and at moms don't have time to read books.
[26:11]Also sign up for my newsletter at zibbowens.com
[26:14]and sign up for my virtual book club
[26:15]and meet lots of authors on Zoom every other week.
[26:18]Thanks so much to Steve and Ryan at Textures Sound
[26:21]for the Sound Editing.
[26:22]And thank you to Morning Moon Productions
[26:24]for providing this fantastic intro and out trim music.