Ann Shen, NEVERTHELESS, SHE WORE IT

[0:08]Hi, I'm Zibi Owens, and you're listening to the award-winning podcast, Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books.

[0:13]Please sign up for my newsletter at zibiowens.com for weekly updates about my podcast, events, and more.

[0:20]Also, follow me on Instagram at zibiowens and also at Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books.

[0:26]And finally, join my virtual book club called Zibi's virtual book club, which meets every other Tuesday at 2 p.m.

[0:32]Eastern Time until 3 p.m. and features half an hour of book club discussion, followed by 30 minutes of Q&A with the author whose book we've just discussed.

[0:41]You can sign up on my website zibiowens.com under the virtual book club section or even on Instagram, under the link in my bio.

[0:49]I hope you'll find me in all these different channels and enjoy this podcast.

[0:53]Today's episode has been sponsored by SugarWish.

[0:56]SugarWish is an online gifting site that provides a delightful gift experience followed by delicious treats.

[1:02]They get to choose delivered directly to their dorm.

[1:05]Here's how it works.

[1:06]A sugar-wish can be sent to anybody.

[1:09]So if you're the recipient, you open up an email and it says someone is sent you a sugar-wish

[1:13]and you open it up, you click and it says pick any four of these delicious candies to fill your basket.

[1:19]So you get to look through everything from gummy worms and M&M's and skittles and jellybeans and everything.

[1:26]And you click and then check out and it's sent to you in this beautiful box with all these candies inside and a ribbon and it's just beautifully packaged and sent right to your door.

[1:38]And so somebody basically you get to customize your own gift and it's really awesome.

[1:42]And I did this and I sent them to my son at boarding school and we got some here for Halloween.

[1:47]And I highly, highly recommend this company.

[1:51]Definitely go check it out, sugarwish.com.

[1:54]And Shen is an illustrator, lecturer, and best-selling author based in Los Angeles.

[2:00]With 10 years of industry experience, she has worked with incredible clients including Disney, Facebook, Papyrus, and The New York Times.

[2:07]She's designed everything from theme park artwork to fashion doll packaging, editorial illustrations to apparel designs.

[2:13]She's spoken about her work at Art Center College of Design, California College of the Arts, and more.

[2:18]She's written an illustrated three best-selling books, bad girls throughout history, legendary ladies, and most recently in what we talked about, nevertheless, she wore it, all published by Chronicle Books.

[2:29]Welcome in to mom's and her time to read books.

[2:32]Thanks for talking about your book.

[2:34]Nevertheless, she wore it 50 iconic fashion moments.

[2:38]Thank you so much for having me on Zippy. I'm so excited to be here.

[2:42]This book was so awesome. I mean, I couldn't even decide which I found most interesting.

[2:47]Some of the current day fashion trends or all the ones from like back in the day when the invention of the bikini or when pants were like a big deal and all of that stuff.

[2:57]How did you come up with all of these different fashion moments and what is like the bigger story behind assembling them all together?

[3:05]Oh my gosh, that's such a good question.

[3:07]So I love fashion and style. I love it as a way that we can express ourselves.

[3:16]So I was thinking about all the ways that people who are very much in the public eye are aware of that, and especially women who historically have been a group that haven't always had a voice, are aware that people are always looking at what they're wearing, and then there have been people who use that as a way to deliver a message.

[3:34]And so that's kind of the theme that I started with, and a lot of the time the message was a way to give women more of a voice, a place, power, more liberation.

[3:46]And so I looked for examples in history that started changing like evolving styles, but ways that in ways that were for women to feel more empowered.

[3:57]And so narrowing down to 50 people or 50 moments rather was really difficult because there's so many fun styles, interesting styles to talk about in the history behind everything.

[4:09]But I really tried to either trace the lineage of styles because they evolved through time to like where did this come from, what did it mean at the time.

[4:18]And then just moments that were very politically or news groundbreaking that we still remember even now that are tied to a message like Lady Gaga's meat dress or Hillary Clinton's white suits.

[4:31]And you mentioned in the beginning of the book how things really changed after the industrial revolution. So what happened like what happened then like what.

[4:41]But before then all clothes are handmade so be like literally by hand so most people didn't own a lot of clothes, the industrial revolution created factories that then were able to create like garment mills and sewing factories and make clothing more accessible and more meaning more affordable to everyone besides the upper class like the only people who had real costumes or changes where people who are royalty or who are very very like famous or well off.

[5:11]So once it became once the industrial revolution happened and everybody was able to get clothing they were able to have a better wardrobe to express themselves to have more of a say in how they wanted to present in the world versus here the few dresses.

[5:28]My mom made and handed down or that I made. And so I think that made it more like that made style a more accessible choice to everyone as a way of personal expression.

[5:38]Yeah it's funny because I don't really think about what I wear that much like I'm not very stylish like I don't I'm not really into fashion so much like my clothes don't make a statement like if they fit it's a good day.

[5:51]But like my main criterion is like does this hide the places that need to be hidden right now that's like how I dress, but I realize for all the women in here like everybody not everybody most people were trying to say something or do something or maybe inadvertently like Michelle Obama with her shift dress.

[6:09]or you know Serena Williams with her tennis cat suit or were they all trying to make such a message was it just you know and even Elizabeth Hurley how you point out with the how she basically created like an influencer.

[6:23]Yeah at all.

[6:25]Do you think that like how intentional I guess do you think most of these current day moments were did they mean to create such a stir or maybe it just varies.

[6:36]I think that was such a that's such a good question because I want to go back to like you not thinking you're a stylish person, but the thing is like we all got dressed every day right and we all make choices of how we.

[6:48]Want to dress and what you express was just you dress to feel good right to feel good about your body because you're emphasizing the things you like and directing the attention right.

[7:00]You're in control of the attention and that's part of the power of getting dressed right, even if you're not a celebrity on the red carpet or a politician.

[7:09]You're still making those choices of how you want to present in the world and that is your personal power you have every day every single person has that even little kids have that right like they definitely want to express themselves to their close.

[7:20]I think some of it, some of the choices in there, some of it incidentally turn out to be controversial like Michelle Obama is sleevelish shift because it was just like a shift dress from like take her pretty sure I had that.

[7:34]Every woman owns a dress like that and it's very it looks like a professional dress it's you know like a high collards black it's very simple and silhouette.

[7:42]But people were so scandalized because she was the first first lady to wear a dress without sleeves and her official portrait.

[7:50]And also she had amazing arms that help, but it also was just like so silly that that was something that became used worthy, but at the same time speaks to how conservative and how different we view everyday women versus someone in political power perhaps.

[8:07]But then there are also intentional once even with the list early dress, she wasn't famous at the time, but she became famous overnight because of that dress she was just Hugh Grant's girlfriend was going to one of his premieres.

[8:20]So he had connections to I think it was Versace and they only had one dress available for which is the safety pin dress and she was confident enough to be like yeah I'm going to wear that dress I didn't really think anything of it it looks like a little black dress.

[8:34]everybody I mean photographs of her at the premiere for all over the world and so it was really interesting that like a woman confident in her body making a choice that really wasn't a choice because that was the only dress she had been offered also became a statement right I mean if that was the only dress I was offered I would not go.

[8:55]Like you have to be able to pull that off so right I don't know you was also like what probably 24 and okay fine yeah yeah and she's dating Hugh Grant who's super hot at the time and so she's really feeling herself yeah absolutely it's like I don't think I would either.

[9:14]But the fact that a woman was feeling comfortable enough to wear that was already headline news which is awesome and a crazy right yeah.

[9:22]And even how you point out in the book like JLo's famous Versace dress I think it was Versace yeah that other people two other people had already worn it yeah and nobody had really cared or noticed or taken note of it and it was just the fact that it was so right for her and brought out all of her like glowing.

[9:39]Yes, if you will not and I have motion right and you know it's funny looking back at that dress when I was painting it I was like wow it doesn't look that scandal is compared to what people wear now but I remember at that time we were also scandalized like oh my god yeah and now people are basically naked all the time.

[9:58]Yeah even get dressed.

[10:00]like what is that? Well let's go back like how did you get here? How did you end up writing this

[10:04]book? Like how did you get your start with writing and illustrating and all the rest? Oh so

[10:11]I went to college for a degree in writing and then I worked for a few years in non-profits

[10:15]and then after that I decided I wanted to go back to school and be an illustrator, a professional

[10:20]illustrator and designer. So I did that and then I was working for a few years in houses of

[10:25]professional designer and then freelancing on the side and working on little projects

[10:31]of my like little passion projects. So one of them was bad girls throughout history which ended

[10:35]up being my first book and it came out in 2016 but I started it in about probably two thousand

[10:41]time. It was a book about female trailblazers like the first woman to do XYZ and I tried to cover

[10:50]a lot of broad fields because at the time I was finding myself struggling with finding any

[10:55]female role models who had broken the roles who had been the first to do something that

[11:00]they were told not to do which was something that I felt like I was running up against a lot

[11:04]as a young professional and so since I couldn't find it I started collecting them and telling

[11:10]their stories and the more I did that the more people would share with me oh have you heard of

[11:14]so and so and so and before I knew it I had a poll book and my agent had seen it. It was a little

[11:19]zen at the time my agent had seen it posted on a blog and she reached out to me and asked me if

[11:24]I was interested in turning it into a book and I was like only my hope and dream in life

[11:29]but I played a cool and I was like yeah that'd be cool and so we made a proposal pitched it

[11:36]chronicle books gave us a great offer they were great fit for it and they've been a publisher of

[11:41]my books ever since because they really get creating like what I'm doing which is something I

[11:46]of an unusual it's not a children's book but it's not a usual adult book it's a coffee table

[11:51]book but it's also like I wanted to feel like learning history but from your best friend where

[11:56]you're just like have you heard of this cool person and that's kind of the threat of all my

[12:00]books which is all about you know feminine power women in history which have been largely marginalized

[12:08]and my second book was about goddesses and all different cultures because I wanted to explore

[12:12]archetypes and the way women were treated or females were thought of in cultures the important

[12:18]roles they played prior to even like pre-Christian colonialism basically and so my third book now I

[12:26]wanted to explore a different angle of feminism and something that I felt like it's kind of coming up

[12:31]again especially with how much we pay attention to I think it came up a lot after the 2016 election

[12:37]where everybody's wearing a pink pussy hat to the women's march right it was the first time that

[12:41]we had kind of a collective style moment where we could feel together even though we were very

[12:48]despondent and that's something that people have done throughout history like the black panthers

[12:54]with black braids suffer jets with their tricolor stripe so that was really interesting to me and

[12:58]then we always get articles about there was a while people were saying ask her more for women on

[13:04]red carpets because they were saying oh women are just that's about who they're wearing but then

[13:08]women kind of caught to that for the time's out movement when they all wore black on the golden

[13:13]gloves or a carpet and that was really interesting like these women know that they're invisible

[13:18]positions in visible positions and what they say has a lot of power because we all see them their

[13:26]images are all around the world like within the hour and so that visual representation is just

[13:33]as important as what you're saying right so you could use that as the means of staff and then of

[13:38]course we see it in politics all the time and we see it right now especially with Kamala Harris

[13:42]wearing like Chuck Taylor's and boots and everyone's writing about it and it's just

[13:48]and it sends a message about the kind of leader she is and so it's just I think a really interesting

[13:54]time since we are such a visual society now a social media and working news like refreshed every

[14:01]second and we're so visual that we take those visuals even more as a means of power and expressions

[14:08]too so anyway that was my mom and how I ended up writing this book I totally understood those

[14:16]golden gloves it was the golden gloves right there was an academy of words when they all wore black

[14:19]but like selfishly I was very disappointed not to have all that sort of eye candy of dresses

[14:25]and fine necklaces and all the glittery things that we don't get in our normal life where

[14:31]I know I definitely had a moment where I was like wait are they doing this at every award show this

[14:37]yeah exactly how long is this going on I mean I totally support the visibility of it but yeah I

[14:43]mean and I love the red carpet because it's such a way for people to appreciate artists too right

[14:49]like a lot of young American designers like Michelle Obama only chose to wear American designers or

[14:55]just their choices in celebrating these designers it gives them a platform unlike anything else

[15:02]so what type of what's your fashion motif like what do you like to wear oh my gosh well I always

[15:08]love a Peter Pan collar very cute it kind of reminds me of Ruth Bader Ginsburg of course

[15:15]and then just but it also feels I feel professional but also feminine right like it's our version

[15:21]of our white collar yeah I love a red lipstick I definitely do feel more put together even if I'm

[15:27]just wearing red lipstick which has been kind of a thing even through quarantine I'm like okay if

[15:32]I just put on lipstick for the zoom I will feel like my life's together and everything is not

[15:38]falling apart around me yeah lip gloss is my thing and I like continue to put it on I don't even

[15:46]have it you know it stays on for like three seconds yeah those three seconds I'm like oh yeah I'm

[15:50]all fit together but now with the pandemic it's like I go outside like I put it on and then I

[15:55]put my mask on it's just stupid why do I do this like but I know it's like I know it's under there

[16:00]yeah you feel good right makes you feel like I like this together yeah so silly

[16:07]but yeah the red lipstick I mean it's nice to have a signature thing like that I make

[16:12]it sort of easier to get off the door when you know that's what you do and that's how

[16:17]I mean the red lipstick not the not the lip gloss

[16:20]the lip gloss too what's your no you know it's not no it's like I'm not only I can even tell

[16:25]but it's on yours is like a statement that I can see now so are you working on a new project after

[16:32]this like what's coming next for you yeah I'm actually working on a fourth book which I'm really

[16:37]excited about it's I would say it's inspired by we haven't announced it yet but it's inspired by

[16:42]a lot of the events in this year yeah yeah I will I will translate that in my head

[16:49]well I happen to love both your illustration style and your writing style because both I find

[16:56]are like there's it's like a little bit of a little bit of like flirty fun and sense of humor

[17:03]mixed with like actual great depiction of things I didn't say that very well but you know even

[17:10]the title it's it's like you don't take yourself too seriously and yet you're also teaching

[17:15]which is like the best kind of teacher there is really oh thank you you know versus like

[17:20]I am going to make you realize this about feminism or whatever you know I unfortunately feel

[17:25]that some more feminist leaning things I know this is gonna sound bad I don't know I just don't

[17:30]like any anybody being too didactic and what they're trying to teach or to share you know there's

[17:37]gentler ways to communicate so anyway I just love it thank you love it you should do like

[17:42]commissions do you do that like somebody commissioning like for my mom's birthday or something you

[17:47]would do like to send you her favorite code or and then frame it asked all the time for that

[17:52]but I really don't have time since I'm always like I'm way too famous and accomplished for

[17:59]you for the thought if I am on my last dime maybe I'll call you I'm too busy hustling to make

[18:11]more things are accessible to everyone right like it's like you're to buy a $20 book then

[18:15]to appreciate the mission yes well just I'll just say I really appreciate your work and the book

[18:21]is great I mean it's also like a great giftable book and I don't know you can just see like I don't

[18:27]maybe I'll give like if you'd even do the necklace and like a black dress in this book like what

[18:31]a perfect gift is that you know it would be so sweet yeah holidays are coming sort of soon so

[18:37]I don't know I think that's a great I'm gonna have to remember this around the holiday time

[18:40]to like match it with any of these things and especially with Ruth Fitter Ginsburg on the cover

[18:45]given her recent loss and everything so well do you have any advice to aspiring author illustrators

[18:52]such as yourself oh my gosh just follow your curiosity and just those things are

[18:59]things that are unique to you your voice your point of view and create the things that you wish

[19:03]existed in the world that's what I continue to keep trying to do with my books and like you said

[19:08]like I like to make cheeky fun books I had a hard time memorizing history or like being really

[19:14]interested in history when I was in school but my approach to it now is like I rediscovered it

[19:20]as these are all people just like we were just human messy complicated funny accomplished

[19:26]and we could they could still do all these amazing things right and it's like when I talk about

[19:31]it like that and when I'm sharing out with a girlfriend I'm just like this is fascinating

[19:36]or when I'm hearing stories from her friends so I want it to be cheeky and fun and interesting

[19:41]and also make you feel smarter and more connected to the world and and our ancestors are collective

[19:46]ancestors so just think about so that's that's what I'm interested in so to think about the

[19:51]things that you're interested in and you're curious about and love and want to share with the world

[19:55]and someone else will need the thing that you want to make hopefully

[20:00]well I feel like there's so many people right and like you look on the internet

[20:04]there are groups for everything so you will find your people you'll find your tribe

[20:10]that's true

[20:15]someone who's what you make someone will need it yeah well thank you so much thanks for

[20:20]coming on mom's damn time to read bugs and thanks for nevertheless she wore it and i just

[20:24]loved it and it's adorable and awesome and thank you thank you so much it was a pleasure

[20:29]okay take care bye thanks again to today's sponsor sugar-wish send a surprise

[20:37]sugar-wish to somebody you love and check it out yourself sugarwish.com thanks for listening to

[20:42]this episode of mom's don't have time to read books don't forget to follow me on instagram

[20:47]at zibi Owens and at mom's don't have time to read books also sign up for my newsletter at zibiowens.com

[20:52]and sign up for my virtual book club and meet lots of authors on zoom every other week

[20:57]thanks so much to Steve and Ryan at texture sound for the sound editing and thank you to

[21:01]morning moon productions for providing this fantastic intro and out trim music