Max Gross, THE LOST SHTETL
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[1:54]Max Gross is a former staff writer for the New York Post and the forward
[1:58]and is currently the editor in chief of the commercial observer.
[2:01]He lives in New York City with his wife and son and his novel is called The Lost Shettle.
[2:07]Hi Max, how are you?
[2:08]How's it be?
[2:09]I'm well.
[2:10]Okay, so we're here today to talk about The Lost Shettle by Max Gross, which is you and that's the
[2:17]cover but I have the advanced version and this is in conjunction with the JCC's Florida Jewish
[2:23]book fest which you will be attending and you'll be in the panelist for their fiction forum
[2:28]and that's really exciting so this is a kickoff to that and I'm excited to be with you.
[2:34]So let's talk about your book and welcome.
[2:36]Thank you so much. I really hope I don't have any more frozen, but I'm sorry about that,
[2:40]you know, unstable connect.
[2:41]Who knows, it could be mine.
[2:43]So Max, The Lost Shettle.
[2:45]Oh and here, here is the actual book.
[2:47]I just got them.
[2:48]Yeah.
[2:49]Guys, it's showing the actual book.
[2:51]You have the actual book.
[2:54]So Max, I'm very excited.
[2:55]So can you please, please tell listeners what it's about.
[2:59]Of The Lost Shettle, it's a bad Jewish village so isolated that it is completely overlooked
[3:07]by the nozzler in World War II and it's completely overlooked by the Soviet
[3:13]Cold War and it is basically, uh,
[3:18]root-scovered in the here and now.
[3:20]So I've been describing it as a Yiddish Brigadoo,
[3:23]like just reappearing after many years and many,
[3:27]or you could think of it as like an Amazonian tribe of Jews in the middle of the Polish forest,
[3:33]but that's basically the plot and, you know, it gets all sorts of
[3:38]clash of civilization when they are reintroduced into modern world.
[3:43]And what, how did you come up with this idea?
[3:45]You know, I actually, I'm kind of a history buff and I was reading a book about World War II
[3:51]and in this book, I just had this very weird thought I was like, you know,
[3:56]all there were so many stettles in Eastern Europe, you know, prior to World War II.
[4:01]Like, you know, how was it that they all fell to this, you know, horrible, you know,
[4:05]why were the, you know, why weren't there any that sort of slipped through like some,
[4:09]you know, middle of nowhere kind of like, you know, village?
[4:12]Well, why did they all sort of succumb to this?
[4:15]And, you know, just this thought occurred to me, like, oh, well, maybe one did.
[4:19]And, you know, I spent, you know, a long time thinking about like,
[4:23]it was an interesting idea, but how would it realistically happen?
[4:30]Max, I keep, kind of keeps freezing a little bit.
[4:33]Oh, no.
[4:34]I know, just a little so if I'm not answering.
[4:36]Well, I heard how you were a big history buff and you had to wonder like, what if,
[4:40]what if something had survived?
[4:42]How could one not have made it and your research?
[4:45]So did you do any traveling to the actual places and have like a site that you imagined it
[4:50]to have been?
[4:51]Well, I sort of created the province.
[4:53]So there was no, there was actually, it was a fictional province.
[4:56]Like, you know, like, sock nerves, yacnapatatha.
[4:59]I have my, you know, my own little, you know, fake province in Poland.
[5:04]I did visit Poland, you know, I used to be a writer for the New York Post,
[5:08]and I was on the travel beat, which is a great beat if you can get it.
[5:12]And I, I can ask my editor, David Kaufman, to send me to Poland for just a travel story.
[5:20]And I was pretty deep into the book when I, when I went, but I did visit Auschwitz,
[5:24]and I did see a little bit of the countryside, but it was definitely a very interesting experience.
[5:30]Yeah, I've been to Auschwitz, and that is, it's really just haunting to even step foot there
[5:35]and think of everything that happened and all the rest.
[5:39]And I like this, I just think your creativity is so great to sort of reimagine
[5:44]what, like, what would happen?
[5:46]And I, I love that, like, novelist in general are always like, what if, what if, what if, right?
[5:51]And then all of a sudden we have these amazing stories.
[5:53]And like, now I can just get lost in your story of your wondering, what if, what if,
[5:57]especially for this horrific period of time, right?
[6:01]What if more places that led, it begs the question, like, you know,
[6:05]what if everybody had survived?
[6:07]What would the world be like, right?
[6:08]And it, you just have to, I don't know, my mind goes there.
[6:12]Yeah, no, absolutely.
[6:14]And you know, it's, it's, it still is sort of crazy to think that it was so
[6:18]such an awling everybody's life back then.
[6:21]You don't see too many events like that, that, that, that do that.
[6:25]And then actually a friend of mine who just heard about the book told me about these Russians
[6:29]who had still been living under the auspices of communism, like years later.
[6:34]He just sent me the story.
[6:35]I've looked at it, but I was like, well, I guess life could be, you know, this is a case of,
[6:40]you know, unbeknownst to me of life imitating art,
[6:42]imitating life, imitating art, all that stuff.
[6:46]Oh my gosh.
[6:47]So how long did it take for you to write this book?
[6:49]What was your process like?
[6:50]Did you outline it first or what was it like?
[6:52]Well, you know, it's funny.
[6:53]When I first thought of the idea, I thought that it was going to take place
[6:56]in the 40s.
[6:57]Like I thought it was going to be like, you know, something that,
[6:59]okay, they got missed and, you know, almost like they come out of the bomb shelter
[7:04]and like, you know, what, what the hell happened while we were gone?
[7:07]And I thought more, well, why would they have just, in 1946,
[7:14]or 1947, why then would they love all of a sudden have like, you know, woken up?
[7:19]And, you know, why in the 50s?
[7:20]And so sometimes I was like, oh, you know what, it should take place now.
[7:24]There was, it was just like a light bulb that went off at my head.
[7:27]There was like, it could really sort of grapple with all of the
[7:33]contemporary problems that people face and that, you know, are very much on my mind.
[7:38]I'm very much on, I hope, you know, a lot of my readers' minds stuff like that.
[7:41]And so I think that I really started going with the book when I started thinking about
[7:48]the characters, the main character, Pasha, and Yankal.
[7:51]When they started forming in my eyes, I was just like, well,
[7:54]let's sort of follow the whole story.
[7:57]Like, you know, what would happen, you know, the town gets rediscovered.
[8:00]The eye of them being missed by the Holocaust, that's like almost like, you know,
[8:04]the starting point, but the real bones of the story should be, you know,
[8:08]what's happening now when they are suddenly introduced to all of this history.
[8:13]They just plops out in front of them.
[8:15]And, you know, I had an outline, but I definitely
[8:19]strayed from it a lot over the course of writing it.
[8:23]You know, I wrote the first draft a while ago.
[8:26]I finished the first draft of like something like late 2014.
[8:30]And, you know, sailing a book is a long process.
[8:33]There was a couple of years of that.
[8:35]But it also, there was a period where I was reworking it and rewriting it that was also
[8:40]I also had a son who's now five.
[8:43]And so there were just a lot of like interruptions in the finishing of the book.
[8:48]But yeah, the process was, you know, I started in like, I think I thought of the idea in like
[8:53]2008, 2009, really started working about it on it in like 2010, 11 finished draft in 2013.
[9:01]And then sat for 20 years and like in 2017, I was like, I have finished this.
[9:09]Worked eye out on a revised version.
[9:11]I had a very lovely lady named Michelle Brower who's an agent read a version of it,
[9:17]gave me her notes.
[9:18]Her notes were, you know, very, very smart.
[9:20]And so I basically worked around those, you know, and then yeah, in 2017, I,
[9:26]you know, started pitching it to other, the long story.
[9:30]Which agencies, all these other things.
[9:31]But I found David Vigliano, Nick Journey and Tom Flannery, my agent now, Nick is no longer with
[9:37]the agency.
[9:38]We end up selling it up.
[9:39]But yes, that was the, that's the whole sort.
[9:41]Sorry.
[9:42]I'm worried that we probably wanted to know.
[9:43]No, no, I find that process so interesting.
[9:46]I really do.
[9:46]And how great that you stuck with it and didn't let it just stay as a file in your computer,
[9:52]whatever.
[9:52]I mean, to bring it out, I mean, I'm sure every experience like having a five-year-old son,
[9:57]too, I have four kids, but he's my baby.
[10:00]And having kids changes also your perspective
[10:03]and adds, I feel, some depth to your writing.
[10:06]Like you just have a new perspective
[10:07]as if you did anything, if you had a new job
[10:09]or if you adopted a puppy or something.
[10:11]Anyway, so I'm sure that just all these experiences
[10:15]can only help in other words.
[10:16]So for anybody feeling bad
[10:18]that they have a thing on their desktop,
[10:20]they might get better with time, who knows?
[10:22]Absolutely.
[10:23]No, for sure.
[10:24]I mean, if you had four kids, you know,
[10:26]it's like, my God, because you had some crisis
[10:29]that has to be addressed right away with your child.
[10:33]So yes, it's, I think it was Janet now,
[10:37]come and call it an infinitely postponable act, right?
[10:41]I'm glad that I finally got back to it.
[10:43]That's so funny.
[10:44]Yes, my kid's urgent thing today
[10:46]is putting things on the wish list for Hanukkah.
[10:48]Mind you, it's, you know, obviously still October
[10:51]and, you know, why this is urgent now.
[10:53]We don't even know what Hanukkah is.
[10:54]I had to look it up today.
[10:55]So anyway, but yes, the urgency of kids needs
[10:58]always trumps a beautiful paragraph
[11:00]that needs to be, you know, crafted,
[11:02]carefully and all dressed, amazing.
[11:05]So tell me how you like,
[11:06]did you always know you wanted to be a writer?
[11:09]Pretty much.
[11:10]Since I was a kid, I was always writing stories.
[11:11]My parents were both writers.
[11:13]My father was a mystery writer
[11:15]and his most famous book does not have his name on it.
[11:17]His most famous book is The Vertex,
[11:19]which became a movie with Paul Newman like 19,
[11:22]the early 1980s.
[11:24]But he wrote true crime, he wrote mysteries,
[11:28]he wrote, you know, he was a columnist
[11:31]for New York News Day for 10 years,
[11:34]wrote for People Magazine.
[11:35]And my mother was a writer and editor as well.
[11:38]She was one of the editors for Team Magazine,
[11:40]the Time Style Magazine.
[11:42]So, you know, there were books everywhere
[11:44]in my house growing up.
[11:45]And it was like very, if you wanted to keep up,
[11:48]you really had to do your reading.
[11:50]You had to sort of do your homework
[11:52]and you had to know what you were talking about.
[11:55]And you had to, you know,
[11:56]my parents were just not gonna tolerate
[11:59]cruddy conversation.
[12:00]That was just not gonna be, so, you know,
[12:05]I grew up a bit of a bookworm.
[12:07]Did you grew up in New York?
[12:08]Grew up in Brooklyn Heights.
[12:09]Okay.
[12:10]Just sort of Brooklyn.
[12:11]But it's kind of Manhattan too, but.
[12:13]It's not.
[12:14]I mean, look, I feel like I have great street cred
[12:20]saying that I'm from Brooklyn.
[12:22]You do.
[12:22]It's super cool.
[12:23]But it's not.
[12:24]Okay.
[12:25]Then I was there.
[12:26]I have major street cred in the literary universe.
[12:30]You were like, you know, born and bred
[12:32]in like the heart of the New Yorker.
[12:35]So I give you credit for that.
[12:38]But yeah.
[12:39]So, you know, I grew up in Brooklyn Heights.
[12:41]I went to St. Anne School.
[12:42]I don't know if you've, it's like the, yeah.
[12:44]Of course.
[12:45]Which was even though it's called St. Anne School.
[12:48]And it was a very, very hippie-dippy place
[12:51]who surrounded by Jewish people.
[12:52]You know, from the headmaster on down was Jewish.
[12:56]And you know, it was always sort of a fascination
[12:58]for my parents as well as me,
[13:00]was like Jewish history, you know, the Holocaust,
[13:03]but also Jewish literature.
[13:04]You know, we were, I remember as a kid
[13:07]going to a, this friend of my parents' house
[13:09]for the weekend, I guess they lived in like, you know,
[13:11]a pod or something like that.
[13:13]And finding, I was like about 12 years old at the time,
[13:16]finding, gimbal the fool on this person's shelf.
[13:20]You know, just on the little room that was my room
[13:22]for the weekend, I took it off.
[13:25]And you know, it definitely was this, you know,
[13:30]love at first sight moment.
[13:32]It was, you know, a moment where I was like,
[13:34]oh my gosh, this is, and you know,
[13:35]I feel like, to a certain extent,
[13:37]the law shadow is my tribute to I should have a singer.
[13:40]But I mean, there were books everywhere.
[13:43]We were very interested in Jewish topics and Jewish books.
[13:46]But we were interested in all sorts of books down.
[13:48]No, I think Bosch at all is also my tribute
[13:53]to Gabriel Garcia Marquez, who, you know,
[13:55]I mean, 100 years of solitude is one of my favorite books.
[13:57]And Maconda, the town there was very much a model
[14:02]for Cresco in a lot of ways.
[14:04]Well, your parents must be very proud of you.
[14:06]It must be bellowing and, you know, excited.
[14:09]So, but I don't think that they will have figured out
[14:13]how to get on Facebook.
[14:16]Maybe they'll watch it.
[14:19]Well, I'm sure this is like one of many appearances
[14:22]you will be doing.
[14:23]So I'm sure they'll catch something along the way.
[14:26]For sure.
[14:27]When you were saying, you know, I grew up
[14:28]and there were books everywhere, you know,
[14:30]how could I not be a writer?
[14:31]I'm just like crossing my fingers at one of my four kids
[14:34]might actually want to write some day and say,
[14:36]you know, I'm imagining Zoom, you know, 20, 30
[14:40]when one of them says, well, I grew up
[14:42]with a lot of books around.
[14:43]And I'll be like, yes, I did something.
[14:47]I think it's the best way, you know,
[14:48]just put them in the room with the books
[14:50]and they'll get it.
[14:52]They'll take it up by Osmosis or something.
[14:54]Exactly.
[14:55]Yeah, I'm hoping that happens.
[14:56]Doesn't seem to be working, but whatever I won't give up.
[14:59]So what happened between St. Anne's
[15:02]and the New York Post and the book?
[15:04]What else in your like day job life
[15:06]or like what happened riding wise aside from those things?
[15:09]Or was that it?
[15:10]Was it like college to the?
[15:12]No, actually after college I went to Israel for a year.
[15:15]I went to a very not Jewish college.
[15:17]I went to Dartmouth College, which is a wonderful school,
[15:21]but it was like, yeah, actually I was talking about this
[15:23]to a reporter Emily Barak last week was, you know,
[15:27]I definitely think that there are traces of being
[15:30]like left alone in the wilderness that sort of gave me
[15:34]some inspiration for this book.
[15:37]But when I graduated, you know, I mean,
[15:40]I applied for graduate school and I always want,
[15:43]as I said, I always want to be a writer
[15:45]and applied for graduate school.
[15:46]I got into an MFA program in Columbia for film,
[15:49]actually it's going to do screenwriting.
[15:51]I think I was sort of sick of academia.
[15:53]I was like, you know, I had been in school my whole life
[15:57]and, you know, I sort of was a little exhausted
[16:02]with just like, you know, that whole structure.
[16:06]And I thought, you know, something more interesting
[16:08]with the next year.
[16:09]Like, I don't know what it'll be.
[16:10]But I, and then I decided, you know what,
[16:12]there's this, there was this program in Israel
[16:15]and I don't think it exists anymore
[16:16]called the Arad Arts Project,
[16:18]which was basically you sit and you work on your art,
[16:21]whether it's painting or music or writing.
[16:25]And it's out in Arad, which is near Bresheva
[16:28]in the desert in Israel.
[16:30]And I went for a year, it was supposed to be seven months
[16:33]and they were ended up spending an extra five months there.
[16:35]And it was a very formative experience just
[16:38]because I was sort of on my own
[16:40]in a completely different country talking to people
[16:44]who had, you know, completely different experiences for me
[16:48]and very sharp perspectives.
[16:50]When you're in Israel, I mean, like you could speak to Arabs,
[16:53]you could speak to Jews and, you know, they live together
[16:56]and they live in the same, you know, under the intent
[17:00]and, you know, it's so starkly different.
[17:02]And that was a great experience.
[17:04]Despite the fact that, you know, I was there during
[17:06]it's thought on, you know, the cover a lot of pain,
[17:10]but it was nevertheless, you know, something that I feel
[17:14]very much formed in May.
[17:16]And then when I came back, I worked at the forward newspaper
[17:21]for about like three or four years, which, you know,
[17:24]was used to be the Yiddish forward.
[17:26]And then about like 20 years ago or so,
[17:28]maybe a little bit longer than that.
[17:29]They had an English version of it that they formed.
[17:32]And that was a great experience.
[17:34]I mean, I was actually talking about this recently as well.
[17:39]You know, just when you work at like one of these
[17:41]like local newspapers, first off, there are so many people
[17:44]who like call you because you're the only person
[17:48]that they can call to like sort of tell their stories.
[17:51]And I had the lowest job on the totem pole
[17:54]in the sense that I was like answering the phone.
[17:57]So I was getting all the phone calls
[17:59]from every disgruntled person who just wanted to tell me
[18:01]about their evil landlord or about their, you know,
[18:04]the implants that were that their dentist
[18:06]was putting into their teeth, the real story
[18:09]somebody did call me the bill, tell me that.
[18:10]And I used to actually get calls from the widow of him
[18:13]Grodda who was a Yiddish poet who was, you know,
[18:16]one of the real like, you know, luminaries in the world
[18:20]of Yiddish culture called me to yell at me every time
[18:23]the forward mentioned Isaac Pecheva Singer,
[18:25]who she regarded as the worst writer who ever lived
[18:28]and who had like done such shame on to the Jewish people.
[18:31]And it was really right out of Cynthia Ozick's story,
[18:35]this whole experience.
[18:37]I was a great experience.
[18:38]I mean, you know, I was, you know, talking to just people
[18:43]who had a lot to say and who had great stories.
[18:46]And that was also very difficult.
[18:48]Yeah. And then I went to the New York Post,
[18:51]which was a great gig.
[18:53]I was, you know, working at the home section,
[18:56]the real estate section, but I was also just writing a lot
[19:00]of food stories and then because the travel desk was
[19:04]right next to the real estate desk,
[19:06]whenever the travel editor would go, you know, on trips,
[19:09]he would ask us to like, you know, write his headlines
[19:12]and his captions and thank us.
[19:14]He would send us places.
[19:16]And he'd be like, okay, well, we have this trip
[19:18]to Italy coming up that we need to bring it back to you.
[19:19]You want to go mix it.
[19:21]Directed, that's wonderful.
[19:24]And then when he left, this was an editor named David Lance,
[19:29]all he, the powers that be at the post were just like,
[19:33]well, we had to figure out who we were going to hire
[19:36]to be the new travel editor.
[19:37]So until we figured out, that out, you know,
[19:40]you guys, you know, take care of it.
[19:43]And so we were like, okay, fine.
[19:44]You know, we know what we're doing.
[19:45]And after a couple of months, they were like,
[19:46]well, you guys are doing fine.
[19:47]We don't need enough money.
[19:48]You know, you're just going to,
[19:52]so it became travel and real estate.
[19:54]And which was a great job.
[19:56]Wow.
[19:57]And do you have like a day job now?
[20:00]you mostly committed to being a novelist or what?
[20:03]Well, I'm definitely committed to being a novelist.
[20:05]And the thing that I learned when my son was born
[20:08]that I could only really get away with doing it
[20:10]if I am committed to waking up at before 6am every day
[20:14]to actually get a few pages out there.
[20:17]But no, I'm actually the editor of a real estate magazine,
[20:20]a commercial real estate magazine called the Commercial Observer,
[20:23]which is in its way also extremely interesting gig,
[20:27]just in the sense of the real estate community
[20:31]is almost this like shadow of billionaire stories.
[20:36]Like the people who sort of own New York,
[20:37]there are so many crazy people in that list.
[20:40]But you know, I've met most of them and they're there.
[20:44]And they've all got like these incredibly strange bizarre stories
[20:48]to go with them.
[20:49]So I don't know, I don't know what my next book will be
[20:51]a bit of a thing that won't be influencing it.
[20:54]Wow, the shadow of billionaires.
[20:56]That's a cool title, too.
[20:58]That all billionaires, I've trademarked that right now.
[21:02]Yeah, I have my little team doing getting the trademark
[21:07]while you're here, no, I'm getting it.
[21:08]I don't even really have a team.
[21:09]I have a tiny team.
[21:10]Anyway, so what are you working on next?
[21:13]Do you have another novel in the works?
[21:14]I actually, I don't know if I'm allowed to really talk about it
[21:17]because I think that the Harper owes me body self the next
[21:22]for the next 60 days or something like that.
[21:25]I'm not sure that I'm allowed to speak of that.
[21:27]But you know, one of the things that the long process has allowed
[21:30]me to do has been to just go on to the next thing.
[21:33]So, you know, I have been working this whole time on new things
[21:38]and I definitely don't want to wait so long
[21:40]for the next thing comes out.
[21:42]So there are a couple of different things
[21:44]that could be the next thing.
[21:45]I'm working on all of them at the moment.
[21:47]Wow. Well, I feel like you're going to be this,
[21:50]this is just the beginning for you of like your lifetime of talent in this area.
[21:55]And it's very exciting to see when like someone's debut
[21:59]and where it's going to go from here.
[22:01]And I don't know, it's just very cool.
[22:03]And now I love knowing that like this green cover is all about Dartmouth,
[22:05]which is like, you know, you're not at alumnus.
[22:10]Are you? Is it enough?
[22:11]No, I went to, I went to Yale.
[22:13]Although I did spend a week of Dartmouth doing a tennis camp when I was in high school.
[22:16]So I feel like I can say I went to Dartmouth, right?
[22:19]No, I feel like I could say I went to Yale.
[22:21]Like what are four I went to Dartmouth, the summer to call us.
[22:24]Great. So actually we did all our schooling together as it turns out.
[22:29]Whoa, together.
[22:33]But I had tens of friends who went to Dartmouth.
[22:35]And I feel like I had my former sister-in-law
[22:37]and I've spent a lot of time there.
[22:39]So then my ex, anyway, whatever, I won't go into it.
[22:41]But yes, I've spent a lot of time with Dartmouth.
[22:43]So I know that feeling of being in the woods
[22:45]and I could imagine being lost there.
[22:48]And I can be all under yourself.
[22:50]So, you know, anyway, well, do you have any advice
[22:54]to aspiring authors?
[22:55]Well, I mean, you know, one of the things that I will say was
[22:59]I made like a resolution in like, you know, late 2016.
[23:03]Like, you know, I am going to finish this.
[23:05]Like I don't know what is going to happen to it.
[23:08]But this is going to be as, you know, the good
[23:11]a piece of work as I can do, I am going to not stop every day
[23:17]until this thing is finished.
[23:19]And I would wake up at 5 a.m.
[23:21]I feel like there's real financial change, something.
[23:26]I'm going to take something to completion and not, you know,
[23:30]I'm not going to just have a good idea.
[23:32]I'm not just going to, you know, throw some things on the page.
[23:36]Like, I am really going to think about it as a complete thing.
[23:39]And I am going to work at it every day.
[23:42]And it took a lot of time, but it paid off.
[23:45]So that my advice would be to get up early for a different night.
[23:50]But I personally work better in the morning.
[23:52]Me too.
[23:53]Yes, those morning hours before the kids wake up are sacred.
[23:58]Me time.
[23:59]Me time.
[24:00]Well, congratulations again on your book.
[24:03]And I hope you have a great time at the JCC
[24:07]look fast that you wish book fast.
[24:09]So great, you're going to be there.
[24:10]And for all your upcoming stuff, I'll be rooting for you.
[24:13]So good luck.
[24:14]Thank you, and I'm sorry.
[24:17]I hope it was just that one thing that, like, you know,
[24:19]I was frozen, you know, it's not your fault.
[24:24]It's technology and this happens all the time.
[24:26]And there was in and out.
[24:27]But this will be a podcast on momstone.
[24:30]Have time to read books as well, eventually, not too long,
[24:33]but not today.
[24:34]And I will take out all the bits and pieces that were not perfect.
[24:38]And we will make it sound like we had no trouble at all
[24:41]when it's on the podcast.
[24:42]So I love it.
[24:44]So there's that.
[24:45]There's that.
[24:46]Great, great.
[24:47]All right.
[24:48]Well, Zippy, thank you so much.
[24:50]Really appreciate it.
[24:51]No problem.
[24:51]And sorry again for the beginning introduction stress.
[24:54]No worries.
[24:55]OK.
[24:56]All right, now, yeah.
[24:57]OK, OK, bye-bye.
[24:59]Thanks again to today's sponsor SugarWish.
[25:02]Send a surprise SugarWish to somebody you love
[25:05]and check it out yourself, SugarWish.com.
[25:08]Thanks for listening to this episode of Momstone.
[25:10]Have time to read books.
[25:12]Don't forget to follow me on Instagram at Zippy Owens
[25:15]and at moms don't have time to read books.
[25:17]Also sign up for my newsletter at zippyowens.com
[25:19]and sign up for my virtual book club
[25:21]and meet lots of authors on Zoom every other week.
[25:24]Thanks so much to Steve and Ryan at Textures Sound
[25:26]for the Sound Editing.
[25:27]And thank you to Morning Moon Productions
[25:29]for providing this fantastic intro and out trim music.