Stephanie Winston Wolkoff, MELANIA AND ME
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[2:36]Stephanie Winston Wilkoff is the author of Melania and me, which is her very, very controversial book about her friendship with the first lady, well, first lady, at least for the next day.
[2:48]Melania Trump. I hope that everybody knows that by releasing this episode, I'm not expressing any sort of political preference.
[2:56]But I thought it was a timely book given the election this week. So that's why I'm releasing it.
[3:02]Since I recorded this episode with Stephanie, Melania publicly came out and denounced their friendship,
[3:10]their multiple lawsuits against Stephanie about this book. And I kind of wanted to see who it was about and what the big deal was and all the rest.
[3:18]So I don't know. I debated releasing it, but it was a really interesting conversation. And as I said,
[3:24]I think it's very timely. And if nothing else, it shows a lot about what the author herself is going through right now.
[3:31]And her own sort of mental state at the moment after her experience in the White House prior to the White House.
[3:36]Stephanie was a fixture in New York on the benefits circuit. She is an amazing event planner and ran the Met Gala for many years.
[3:45]She was fashion director for Lincoln Center. She did Mercedes-Benz fashion week and was an accomplished
[3:51]event planner on her own right before this tell-all came out. So curious to know what you think.
[3:56]I ended up having to go early without, you know, our conversation meandered. And anyway,
[4:02]enough of my introduction. Here's the episode, Melania and me. Enjoy.
[4:06]Hello. Hi, is it me? Yes. It's Stephanie. How are you?
[4:10]Hey, good. How are you? Well, thank you. Thank you.
[4:14]Oh, thanks for coming on. I'm sorry for the background. My building is like under construction,
[4:19]and I'm hiding in my daughter's room, which is like the only quiet place. I'm in my son's room,
[4:23]and I literally just put like two things like there's clear off a desk for this entire month,
[4:30]because there's yeah, I get it. So all good. All good. Okay. Yeah, I put the stuff to animals away,
[4:36]but I'm not sure it made much of an improvement. That's beautiful, actually. Thank you.
[4:40]No, I love it. I can tell you it's actually a great, great backdrop. I mean, the only thing,
[4:45]I tell you one thing, the chair. I see the chair next to you, the wicker chair, the wicker chair,
[4:51]the chair right next to you. Oh, this is my microphone. Oh, my God. I don't have my glasses on.
[4:56]So oh, now it looks awesome. I thought it was like all I saw was like, I thought it was a chair.
[5:00]Yeah, this is. No, it's great. So let's see if the podcast. Amazing. Thank you.
[5:05]Oh, thank you. It was very interesting. Thank you. Welcome. Congratulations on your book.
[5:11]Thank you. So let's discuss Melania and me, the rise and follow of my friendship with the first lady.
[5:18]Okay. So when did you decide you were going to write about your experience? Well, when I was,
[5:26]I guess the first thing to say is that my experience with with Melania and the White House
[5:32]and the presidential inauguration committee was fast and furious. And I am a meticulous record keeper.
[5:37]I've always been. It's just who I am. So my intent and having all of my, all the administrative
[5:45]things that you would do normally under any circumstances as part of your job at which mine was
[5:50]very much about budgets and with my work that I've done, things just didn't seem to add up.
[5:56]Let's just put it that way. And so as after the presidential inauguration committee
[6:01]producing the events, I then went into the White House with Melania because she had no one else.
[6:05]I mean, no one. So maybe I should back up. I like was so interested. I just like wanted to have
[6:10]hear you answer that question so badly, but maybe I should provide more context, which is that
[6:15]new and Melania were friends you met in part through your kids. You would go to lunches. You would
[6:20]hang out and she considered you one of her inner circle, essentially beforehand and would always give
[6:27]birthday gifts and call you and, you know, if you needed favors and, you know, recommendations,
[6:32]you were her go to. And so that's like the context. The orchid was yearly. That was the birthday
[6:38]gift. The orchid. Yeah. No, I think it's really important because for me at the time, every year,
[6:43]I would get them. I would think to myself, oh my God, she remember, you know, your friends remember
[6:47]these things. She wasn't the one. I mean, it was a, it was a yearly. And those were the things that
[6:52]I had to pick up on and take a step back and go, that's not a part, that that wasn't, yes,
[6:57]it was a lovely gesture. It was wonderful to be acknowledged and have your friend, right? You just
[7:01]all you want you to do is your friends to reach out with in a text and say happy birthday. But
[7:05]at the time when someone's just going on, you think, wow, that was really nice. But you think they
[7:11]I considered it more care than what I think maybe really what it was. And you don't think that it
[7:16]was from a place of care at all. No, not at all. No, no, I mean, I definitely was a place
[7:20]with care, but that's just who she is. She's part of her makeup is to make sure that things
[7:26]were recognized on behalf of others. A thank you note, a, you know, she's very cordial. She does
[7:32]things very formally. And that's more how I was thinking of it versus my scattered brain where I'm
[7:38]all over the place. And I'm, you know, last minute writing my friends and calling them and life,
[7:43]you know, between working kids. It's just sweet. Just two things out. So, do you mean like the fact
[7:47]do you think that she had it like in her calendar and that it's less care? Not that it's less
[7:52]care, but it isn't her calendar. Okay, Melania does have, you know, assistance in people that take
[7:57]care of those things. That's not to say again, she had to want to do it. And she, but again, it's that
[8:03]next step where it's only do you see it on your eye cow, but you take the time to make sure that
[8:09]it gets there. And you ask and you talk about it. It was just, it was, it was a, it was a very kind
[8:14]gesture. So you think it was a kind gesture, but it seemed kinder than it actually was because of
[8:19]how it was like, I don't want to keep doing all of this. But anyway, let me just let it go. So
[8:24]anyway, so that, that is happening. And then as you had sort of gotten closer and you recorded
[8:31]a bunch of your emails and all this stuff and record when you shout, I'm sorry, that was the wrong
[8:36]word. Well, you were just saying you're a great record keeper. So I think that's why it was in my head,
[8:40]don't take your list records and everything. And then you have so many of the emails you
[8:44]exchanged in the book. So like everybody, they save, right? So absolutely. And that's the thing too,
[8:50]I think the most, one of the most important things for me writing this book was to clear my
[8:55]conscience because it was immediately after I was fed to the walls, sort of the bus and accused of,
[9:00]you know, a financial crime and had lined all over the world as this, you know,
[9:05]Melania's front gets $26 million. And then the following week, Melania's front gets fired,
[9:09]you know, they made it, they attached it, they made a couple, well, neither headline was true.
[9:13]But she wouldn't, you know, she, and again, that's why I felt like I had to make sense of,
[9:19]I had to take a big step back and I started writing because I was writing an op-ed. I was trying to
[9:24]put this into an op-ed thinking, okay, if I write what happened, I can tell, you know, in 800 words,
[9:31]I'm trying to, you know, to fit this in so everyone can understand. And that op-ed just kept going
[9:36]and going and going and going because I couldn't fit enough out. And I couldn't fit, and I
[9:41]can't, your op-ed is this line. That's why op-ed basically what happened, okay, based on all facts.
[9:47]I mean, there's not a line that's disputable. And so when the White House kept coming after me
[9:52]saying I was delusional, I made things up, I, those are the reasons why you hear some of
[9:58]of those recordings now. Because-
[10:00]I kept, yeah, wait.
[10:01]So for people who don't know what happened,
[10:03]you went into the White House,
[10:04]just tell like the, you went into the White House,
[10:06]you were hired to help with the inauguration,
[10:08]you had a whole history running the Met Ball
[10:10]for many, many years
[10:11]and we're like complete superstar event producer
[10:14]and a thousand trillion other amazing reputable things
[10:17]and society blah, blah, blah.
[10:18]So you go, Melania says she wants you
[10:21]to be part of the inauguration,
[10:23]you orchestrate that in your way
[10:25]that you are used to doing, then what happens?
[10:28]So I was working with a lot of people
[10:30]during the inauguration,
[10:31]and there were a lot of things going on around me
[10:32]that I, again, I wasn't accustomed to,
[10:34]but I also wasn't familiar with.
[10:36]So I would constantly bring up to Donald Melania
[10:38]a lot of inconsistencies and inaccuracies of things
[10:41]that didn't happen, also didn't make sense.
[10:44]And so after the inauguration, we planned 18 events,
[10:47]I was supposed to go into creative
[10:49]ended up doing out a couple of events, right?
[10:51]Ended up being the central figure,
[10:54]I became the face of the inauguration.
[10:57]For some odd reason,
[10:59]and I do know there was a meeting a couple of days,
[11:01]a week before that Stephanie needs to go out front,
[11:03]you need to, we're gonna do New York Times article
[11:06]and we need you out there to show everyone
[11:08]that you're in support of this,
[11:09]because I hadn't done any press
[11:10]and had no intention of doing press,
[11:12]I was just doing it actually out of honor
[11:14]because it is the United States of America.
[11:16]I am a producer, I felt it's an amazing thing to be asked to do,
[11:20]and Melania's my friend.
[11:21]And so nobody else would do it.
[11:23]And the reality is, I, even if other people
[11:26]would have done it, I, and so my own fault,
[11:29]didn't take policy into consideration at the time.
[11:34]At all.
[11:35]Now there was that familiar with it.
[11:36]I've had to educate myself because,
[11:38]quite honestly, I felt like I could separate politics
[11:41]and ethics.
[11:42]And the way I was able to live my life
[11:45]was to do humanity, work on humanitarian,
[11:48]contribute in producing events like the inauguration.
[11:51]But I've always blocked out the noise of politics.
[11:54]That's not, you cannot live your life like that.
[11:57]I am, that is my fault for going into this
[12:00]and saying yes to something that I knew nothing about.
[12:03]This was no fairytale.
[12:04]This was no, you know, in New York fashion week.
[12:06]This was, this was a different world, a different beast.
[12:09]And I didn't know enough.
[12:10]And that's one of the biggest lessons I learned,
[12:13]no matter how close you are to someone.
[12:15]You are not, you know, you've got to ask questions.
[12:18]And you've got to make sure you understand
[12:19]who the players are before you agree to jump into,
[12:23]you know, anything that you do in your life.
[12:25]And so I wanted to believe that good over evil
[12:28]forts, you know, doesn't matter.
[12:30]Does, it does not work that way in politics
[12:33]or in this world that I was dealing with with these people.
[12:36]But I always felt Melania had my back and Donald.
[12:38]So it was really the, with the support of Melania
[12:41]when I came back to New York,
[12:43]literally two days later I flew to DC,
[12:45]should no one else, I mean, no one.
[12:47]I was interviewing everyone for her office
[12:49]during the inauguration.
[12:50]So as I was planning the inauguration
[12:51]and I was working on all of, you know,
[12:53]Ralph Lauren and getting all of her organizing her fur
[12:56]for the swearing in every step of the way,
[12:58]working with, you know, unproduction and broadcast.
[13:01]I was interviewing and hired and met and hired
[13:04]a few people for the East Wing.
[13:06]When I went back to the White House, it was empty.
[13:09]It was just, I mean, it was an empty dark place.
[13:12]And I was alone and I turned on the lights.
[13:14]I remember calling her and being like,
[13:16]and there I was standing in Michelle Obama's office.
[13:18]And to me, I was like, oh my God,
[13:20]I'm standing in Michelle Obama's office.
[13:22]And she was, you know, like no big deal.
[13:26]Like it was like, I'm FaceTime in her.
[13:28]I just remember that moment.
[13:29]And I'm like, my God, look where I am.
[13:31]I'm in, now I said, I'm in your office.
[13:33]Like this is the White House.
[13:35]This is the United States of America.
[13:37]And it was sort of like, you know,
[13:39]she just moved on to, you know, laughed
[13:41]and like moved on to what's next,
[13:43]which is the redecorating and the staffing.
[13:45]And, but she didn't really wanna even talk about that.
[13:48]So it was more, again, I think I held the regard
[13:51]and I think I was obviously projecting what I felt
[13:55]onto her and that's another thing that I see,
[13:58]you know, in retrospect, that I think,
[14:01]because I was in a position to help her,
[14:03]but I was also in a position and the proximity
[14:07]to her, the power that she wielded,
[14:09]the platform that she had to, you know,
[14:12]at her fingertips was,
[14:14]obviously it was something that, you know,
[14:17]I, you know, people say, oh, you wanted the power.
[14:19]You know, there's so much of that children
[14:21]and social emotional learning.
[14:23]That's very personal to me because of my children
[14:25]and the importance of not, you know,
[14:28]identifying children based on how they look
[14:30]or they typical or they're not,
[14:32]our family's been through a lot.
[14:33]And so the journeys that we've had to take
[14:36]to understand how important it is for children
[14:40]to be able to first understand themselves
[14:43]and be able to express themselves,
[14:45]they need the tools to know how to do that.
[14:47]And that's all about prevention, right?
[14:48]It's not about intervention.
[14:50]So when you go into kindergarten,
[14:51]you need to learn that I don't feel well.
[14:53]You need to, what does that mean, you know?
[14:55]So express your feelings, understand what that means,
[14:58]regulate yourself.
[14:59]So these are things that my husband and I
[15:01]and my kids learned over 10 years.
[15:04]And so I felt that every child should have this
[15:08]because it's not just for children
[15:09]with learning disabilities and differences.
[15:12]It's for every child.
[15:13]And the fact that she only wanted to focus on cyberbullying,
[15:16]she was open to a bigger umbrella.
[15:18]And so for me, it was, I was working with the L Center
[15:22]for Motion Intelligence, Aspen Institute, Tim Shriver.
[15:25]I mean, we had an amazing team of people
[15:28]that truly, I think, you know,
[15:30]Ivanka wanted to start the first lady.
[15:31]The West Wing did not want her to continue moving on
[15:34]on a platform, honestly.
[15:36]And there's so much going on at once.
[15:38]So I apologize.
[15:39]No, it's okay.
[15:40]But I even know what,
[15:41]so I was banging my head against the wall every day
[15:43]about her and about the position I put myself in
[15:47]and also the position that I, you know,
[15:48]looking forward and tunnel vision to get it done.
[15:52]So basically, you took an assignment
[15:55]and then didn't totally process
[15:57]because who could know what would come with it.
[16:00]No, okay.
[16:01]And then you found yourself in this new environment
[16:05]and then you didn't have your one ally,
[16:07]you feel enough.
[16:08]And it's like that.
[16:09]So I had her until I had her.
[16:11]I did, I had her.
[16:13]until they needed to place blame.
[16:17]They heard there was an investigation opening up
[16:19]into the presidential inauguration committee.
[16:20]And as soon as that happened, she turned her back on me.
[16:23]When I needed her most and all I needed her to do
[16:24]is speak the truth and just say,
[16:27]and she says it to me personally.
[16:28]And that's why, you know, people say,
[16:30]oh, you can't believe you recorded a friend.
[16:32]No, no, they had already, they had already accused me
[16:36]of getting $26 million.
[16:37]They accused me of being fired.
[16:40]And all the other accusations that came with it,
[16:42]I was already had hired a lawyer
[16:43]when I was in the White House still in January.
[16:46]And she knew about it because there was this set up
[16:50]to taking me down.
[16:51]And I was aware of it.
[16:52]Why did they want to take you down?
[16:54]Well, they needed to, as again, in the book,
[16:57]but it was the importance of mitigating
[16:59]the negative response to any type of headline
[17:01]for the first lady in reference to me working for her
[17:05]because of the accusations of the pick.
[17:07]Now, I'm going to raise all the red flags.
[17:09]You know, people say, I didn't have any signing powers.
[17:12]I didn't have a budget powers.
[17:13]I had the ability, I was like, like I said,
[17:15]it was a piece of chewing gum between everyone.
[17:17]And I was being pulled and pushed in every direction.
[17:19]But I never even had access to a bank account.
[17:21]I never had a check book.
[17:23]I was kicked out of financial meetings.
[17:25]So I could run over to their apartment at Trump Tower
[17:27]and show them things and say, oh my God,
[17:29]I'm going to end up in the bottom of the Potomac
[17:30]because I'm pointing this out to you.
[17:32]And they would pick up the phone and do so they'll fire
[17:34]over gates and the things that went on around me.
[17:37]But at the end of the day,
[17:38]I had no financial responsibility,
[17:41]which made it even worse.
[17:43]So the fact that this worked,
[17:44]you know what I'm saying?
[17:45]So again, totally, there were these 62 questions
[17:48]that went around the White House for a year.
[17:49]And the inauguration's over, okay?
[17:51]In January, February 2017, in February 2018,
[17:55]they released the 1990s,
[17:57]it's a form of 1990 that's going to the Federal Election Committee.
[17:59]When they did that, it's, you know,
[18:01]it lists the top five companies.
[18:03]You don't listen to visuals ever.
[18:06]But as Wiz was created for full transparency
[18:10]as literally four people from Tiny Horse and myself,
[18:13]again, we were only supposed to be overseeing $1.62 million.
[18:16]How it got to where it got to as a whole other story.
[18:18]And that's I'm working with the United States Attorney General
[18:21]for the District of Columbia.
[18:22]And I know I'm going all over his and I apologize,
[18:24]but I'm talking three different investigations.
[18:27]I mean, I was subpoenaed by the Grand Jury
[18:28]of the Southern District of New York,
[18:30]the Intelligence Committee,
[18:31]as well as working with DC now.
[18:34]And, you know, it's been, it took over my life.
[18:38]And so I pressed record after I was in the White House,
[18:42]after I had already hired a lawyer
[18:43]because they wanted me to create a narrative.
[18:45]Not go along, I wouldn't go along with theirs,
[18:47]which was this was the most peaceful transitional of power
[18:50]and everything was done by the book.
[18:53]And, you know, I wouldn't do it.
[18:55]And this is what I'm sitting in the First Lady's office
[18:57]creating her initiatives.
[18:58]So I was a problem, I was a problem for everyone.
[19:00]And I actually expressed that to the lawyers.
[19:03]I was very vocal about the fact that
[19:05]of what was what had happened during the inauguration.
[19:07]And I wouldn't keep my mouth shut.
[19:08]And so not only did they not want the initiative to move forward,
[19:12]they needed me to stop talking about the,
[19:15]Mr., you know, the priorities.
[19:18]So I get everything and I, you know,
[19:20]I did read your book and I filed you on the news.
[19:22]I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry.
[19:23]I know, no, I just want you to know.
[19:25]I do have some background.
[19:26]And part of this is like teasing at what happened,
[19:28]because what I'm really curious about,
[19:30]and I am sorry for what's happened to you.
[19:33]And I can sense your fear really.
[19:36]I mean, there's a lot going on.
[19:37]It's a lot of, it's like out of your control.
[19:40]And all you've done is work hard.
[19:43]And yet all this stuff is happening to you.
[19:45]And I can tell how unfair you feel that is
[19:48]and justify it.
[19:50]Over my life.
[19:51]Yeah.
[19:52]So it's emotionally, emotionally,
[19:54]it was the hospital for over a month.
[19:55]I mean, I was died.
[19:56]And I gave up all my businesses.
[19:58]I mean, I literally gave up all my parts.
[20:00]and her ships to go do this for her.
[20:02]So that's why that betrayal was so hard
[20:06]and it still affects me,
[20:07]because it wasn't like your friend just turned,
[20:09]didn't call you back.
[20:10]I mean, I gave up 25 years of my life's work,
[20:14]my career, my livelihood,
[20:17]my three children had to watch this.
[20:18]And do you think that she was an independent actor enough
[20:22]to have, if she wanted to have had your back,
[20:25]do you think she could have?
[20:26]Well, that's when I have the recordings, right?
[20:28]So that's where she couldn't have.
[20:30]And she told me, the lawyers have spoken.
[20:32]And these are words.
[20:33]The words almost like, is it really her fault?
[20:36]Yes, but not to say that there's a huge amount
[20:39]of wrongdoing here.
[20:41]But it seems like with the book,
[20:42]at least the point of view of the book
[20:45]is sort of like, you know, the friend who does you wrong,
[20:49]which I'm not saying she didn't.
[20:51]I'm just wondering, like, is all the rage
[20:53]and the frustration and justifiable sentiment you feel?
[20:57]Is it really because of her?
[20:59]Or is it because of this whole situation?
[21:01]Well, it had not been for her.
[21:03]I wouldn't have put myself in that situation.
[21:05]It had not been for her.
[21:06]First story that said, I got $26 million,
[21:08]which to begin with wasn't true, whatever.
[21:11]Like, it was the second story
[21:14]where all she had to do was say I wasn't fired, right?
[21:16]That made me couple to the money.
[21:18]It made it look as you know,
[21:20]if I was on a contract that was terminated
[21:23]due to Jared and Rob Porter's security clearances
[21:26]had nothing to do with the pick.
[21:27]So she asked me to keep it quiet about my contract
[21:31]because there's on one other person who had the same contract
[21:33]and I actually said that and told the world that
[21:37]then they could have made me couple to the first article.
[21:39]So, and she, again, the persuasiveness
[21:42]to keep my mouth quiet.
[21:44]Talk to a lawyer, but keep your mouth quiet
[21:46]and I had the NDA, so it was gagged.
[21:49]I couldn't say a word.
[21:50]When your friend tells you to get over it
[21:52]and don't be so dramatic after that happens to you,
[21:56]that's not a friend, that there was no empathy.
[21:59]There was no understanding.
[22:00]This came to that because of politics
[22:03]and those were her words.
[22:05]And so, again, I didn't need for her to do anything
[22:08]with the presidential inauguration committee misdeeds, right?
[22:10]Do you want to say, I just needed her to say,
[22:12]I wasn't fired because I wasn't.
[22:14]Do you think she feels remorse?
[22:17]Do you think she feels anything?
[22:19]Like, in the book you paint her as somebody who is,
[22:22]doesn't have that many emotions.
[22:24]Like, sometimes we're like, well, how can she stand by her?
[22:27]Like, how can this not bother her, right?
[22:30]Like, that's the common thing.
[22:31]Like, she seems so like, you know, you describe it as calm,
[22:35]but it's also, can she feel the feelings?
[22:38]And does is she capable of remorse?
[22:41]And what do you think?
[22:43]Like, because that's sort of different.
[22:45]That's like a kid at school who like, you know,
[22:48]doesn't have the ability necessarily.
[22:51]And I'm not saying, you know, we're all like very up
[22:53]to date child mind, you know, different socio emotional stuff.
[22:57]Like, is it that she lacks the ability?
[23:00]Or is it that it was intentional?
[23:02]So there are many different angles to Melania.
[23:05]And there are many different Melania's.
[23:07]What's consistent is that I say that she's unapologetically
[23:11]skinned.
[23:12]If she cannot control how you think about her,
[23:15]she will not even consider how you're feeling
[23:18]or what you're thinking.
[23:19]And that's a fact.
[23:20]So she must be able to control the narrative.
[23:22]And she says it over and over.
[23:24]I don't care.
[23:25]If somebody hurts her, somebody does something mean
[23:27]or terrible to her, you know, they expose her moodies
[23:30]on the cover of magazine politics.
[23:32]They, you know, the RNC speech, politics, liberal media.
[23:35]She literally says about those type of things,
[23:39]don't pass in a week.
[23:40]And we have a lot of conversations, you know, where I said,
[23:43]I wish I could live my life somewhat like that
[23:45]because I can't.
[23:47]I wear my heart on my sleeve.
[23:48]She does and did express how she is able to move on.
[23:53]And people need to just stand up, hold your head up high
[23:55]and move on and get on with it.
[23:58]Because you don't know what's going to happen tomorrow,
[24:00]the next week, the next month.
[24:01]I mean, these are her words.
[24:03]But she did say, you know, I love you and I'm sorry.
[24:07]That's not enough.
[24:08]That's not enough.
[24:08]You have the letter in here where she's the apologetic ish
[24:12]and, you know, love Melania and all the stuff to the end.
[24:16]Like, did you ever think you were going to like,
[24:18]did you ever, did you ever think of yourself as like a person
[24:21]who would sort of write a book about a friendship gone wrong
[24:25]type of thing or like what type of like,
[24:28]or are you like what it, you know, your other friendships
[24:30]and all the rest.
[24:31]Like, like in my lifetime, I never can like I lived in my husband
[24:35]when I was like, I'm an author.
[24:36]Like I never ever ever ever.
[24:39]This was me to be able to understand what happened to me
[24:44]and the world around me because I couldn't make sense
[24:47]of who is Melania then.
[24:50]How is it possible that she could be so callous?
[24:52]Yet at the same time, I was drawn to her
[24:54]because she had such great common advice
[24:57]because she was so strong and independent.
[24:59]But what that is is there's a barrier
[25:01]that she doesn't, it's not that she, she feels it,
[25:05]but she's not going to let, she's not going to internalize it.
[25:07]Ever.
[25:08]I totally get that you need to figure her out and process it.
[25:12]And you must have just like a trillion feelings
[25:15]about this whole thing.
[25:16]But that's like one bucket.
[25:17]Another bucket is like taking it
[25:19]and sharing it with the entire world.
[25:21]Wow.
[25:22]And the entire world needs to know she supports him.
[25:25]She says, biggest cheerleader.
[25:27]She thinks that he should, again, be very strong
[25:30]and assertive about everything that he's doing.
[25:33]She is not at all concerned about what you think.
[25:37]Nor does she want to tell you what's really going on
[25:39]on the incident with the meme for Melania?
[25:42]If Aaron accidentally kicks in the foot,
[25:45]but by revealing, she will never reveal
[25:47]to anyone the source of what's happening
[25:50]because she doesn't want you to know her emotions
[25:53]and she doesn't want the reader to know who she is.
[25:55]She doesn't want anyone in the world to have any inkling.
[25:58]But the truth is she does not care.
[26:00]She really doesn't.
[26:01]If it's good for Melania, it's good for Melania.
[26:05]And that's forget about me.
[26:06]I'm talking about everyone else.
[26:08]From anyone else's situation,
[26:10]to the way I watched her deal with certain people
[26:12]that were very close and that really friends,
[26:16]she will ask, oh, how's that person doing?
[26:18]Or do you think that anyone
[26:22]doesn't believe that she supports her husband?
[26:25]Do you know what I mean?
[26:26]Why do you want your life?
[26:27]You still think that people,
[26:28]and that's one of the reasons why
[26:30]did release the tape in addition to the fact
[26:31]that they were calling me a paranoid liar,
[26:34]is that people need to hear it from her.
[26:36]So they understand that Melania,
[26:40]in order for her to do something,
[26:42]she needs to be recognized for doing it.
[26:43]That's where she and Donald are very similar, right?
[26:46]He'll cry about it if someone's beating him up,
[26:49]he wants to get, where she doesn't care, right?
[26:52]You can say anything you want about her.
[26:53]That's the difference between the two of them.
[26:55]They both want the attention.
[26:56]They both internalize it, but Melania, that's where it ends.
[26:59]Do you feel like you had any
[27:02]based on your friendship before?
[27:03]Do you feel like you had any loyalty to her?
[27:07]To not share her inner stuff?
[27:10]Oh, I still to this day feel like,
[27:13]honestly, the whole thing that happened
[27:14]with the recording yesterday,
[27:16]in my mind never even went there.
[27:18]I didn't even think that that's what it would turn
[27:21]into a battle between the Twitter.
[27:22]I was like, oh my,
[27:24]I honestly was sick to my stomach, not my intent.
[27:27]None of, honestly, I wanted to write the book and move on.
[27:30]I really thought I'm gonna write this.
[27:33]I'm going to make sure that,
[27:35]I'm, the world knows what really happened.
[27:37]I'm involving these investigations.
[27:38]So I was leaving some breadcrumbs as well,
[27:41]because of my NDA, I am still gagged.
[27:43]So I worked with First Amendment lawyers
[27:44]to be able to write as much as I could.
[27:47]There is a lot of bad going on in our administration.
[27:51]I mean, a lot.
[27:52]And the people that are leading it
[27:54]are connected in so many different ways
[27:57]that people don't even realize.
[27:59]So the intricacies of what's going on
[28:02]and how it's affecting us
[28:04]and how it will affect our children and our children.
[28:07]I didn't feel like, I felt like I'm still protecting them
[28:11]if I don't release the tape as well.
[28:13]I think it was like after the presidential debate,
[28:16]the way he acted with Joe Biden.
[28:18]And then when she went on stage and admiringly
[28:21]looked at him and smiled,
[28:22]regardless of how they held each other,
[28:24]because that's a whole different thing.
[28:26]That's not what they do anyway.
[28:27]But in my, all of a sudden, I felt my blood boil.
[28:31]I felt like it just wasn't right.
[28:33]You, I mean, if I was my husband,
[28:35]I would have gone on stage regardless on cameras
[28:36]and I would have looked like, what was that?
[28:39]Like, well, you know, I understand he's the president respect,
[28:42]but you don't treat people that way.
[28:45]But you don't, it's not okay.
[28:47]So the disrespect, you know, just the lack of character
[28:52]and integrity, she stands behind that
[28:54]because that is who she is too.
[28:56]There is no free Melania.
[28:57]There is no poor Melania.
[28:59]You don't want us to feel sorry for that.
[29:01]Not at all.
[29:02]Neither does she.
[29:03]He doesn't want anyone to feel sorry for.
[29:04]She knows exactly what she's doing.
[29:07]And she says consequences are no consequences.
[29:10]I do what I do because I want to.
[29:12]She doesn't feel it the way everyone thinks she feels it.
[29:15]She just doesn't at all.
[29:17]And again, we're a month away from this,
[29:21]you know, this selection and having spent the time,
[29:24]these couple of years learning about politics
[29:27]and learning about the fact that you've got to educate yourself
[29:31]and you have to know the differences
[29:33]not only between right and wrong, you know,
[29:34]because when he was never left versus right,
[29:36]it was always right versus wrong.
[29:37]But you have to know the differences
[29:39]because as I said earlier, your ethics,
[29:42]your values have to be in line with your politics.
[29:45]And so I have a responsibility to myself,
[29:49]my children, my family, they watched me suffer and give up
[29:53]and do.
[29:54]I had a responsibility to learn what I didn't know.
[29:57]And now I'm vocalizing it and verbalizing it.
[30:00]people understand that they need to know more.
[30:03]Is this helping you?
[30:04]Because I feel like you're still really upset.
[30:07]Can I tell you?
[30:08]No, well, there's something that happened.
[30:10]So things got a little, again, I wanted
[30:13]to write the book and go like this.
[30:15]But the fact is, is that I have so much information
[30:18]that people are still using because of the investigations,
[30:21]again, I'm witnessing all of them, the wait on me
[30:23]and not being able to talk about the things I know
[30:26]and the expectations from all of these prosecutors
[30:30]and people.
[30:31]Again, I spent millions of dollars.
[30:34]Why?
[30:35]For what?
[30:36]So I can give the government the information
[30:38]that I kept calling out and I mean over and over and over.
[30:41]And what's happening?
[30:43]These people are still walking around power.
[30:45]So it's not even, for me, the emotion is not so much,
[30:48]even just, it's not Melania.
[30:50]And it's not the betrayal because I really got it.
[30:52]Like I understand the fact that, again, it's inhumane.
[30:56]It is.
[30:57]And yet, we have a humanitarian crisis in our backyard.
[30:59]And that's all anyone should be talking about.
[31:01]It's all she should be doing.
[31:02]And yet, she's, you know, what she did to the Rose Garden
[31:05]is just, I mean, every, you know, I tie those things together
[31:09]and I say to myself, that's what makes me angry,
[31:11]is that she's in a position to make a difference
[31:13]and she does it.
[31:14]But what what up still upsets me is that I am a voice
[31:17]that knows her and knows this family in a very different way.
[31:22]I know Melania to her core.
[31:23]I have sat with that family at dinner tables.
[31:26]I've spent, now, do I know Donald and the boys?
[31:29]And Ivanka, not anywhere near how I know Melania at all.
[31:33]I know Melania.
[31:34]And so I can say to everyone, do not worry about her
[31:38]and do not think that she has any remotely,
[31:41]any like sad feeling or she's locked up or,
[31:44]but I do have to vocalize.
[31:46]And I have to say, I mean, I must verbalize the fact
[31:48]that I can't say it enough.
[31:50]People really need to understand the politics of the soul
[31:53]and how it's going to affect our next generation.
[31:55]Just, we're not going to be here to protect them.
[31:57]Wow. Well, this is intense.
[31:59]All right.
[32:00]No, I mean, like, no, don't be sorry.
[32:02]You have a lot going on.
[32:04]This is a lot to carry for anyone.
[32:08]And I think it sounds like, you know,
[32:11]you're using the book to sort out your feelings.
[32:14]You're trying hard not to succumb to the things
[32:18]that have happened.
[32:19]You're trying to look for why they happened
[32:21]and you're angry and frustrated.
[32:23]And here's the thing.
[32:24]The truth is, is that what happened to me
[32:26]is happening to everyone else.
[32:28]Right, right.
[32:29]And that again, when you when writing the book
[32:32]and expressing those 69 days and, you know,
[32:34]I was able to tell it from my friendship with Melania
[32:37]as of the NDA again.
[32:39]So through my friendship with the line and have an NDA,
[32:40]it wasn't being paid for my work for Melania.
[32:42]So everything I did was was on my own time.
[32:45]Now I get it.
[32:45]I feel like I am, I'm like watching someone
[32:48]who is really struggling and that is really hard.
[32:51]And maybe I'm not out of line saying that.
[32:54]It just seems like this is gonna tell you emotionally.
[32:57]Again, I almost, when I say I was died,
[32:58]like I live, I've had to my two pulmonary embolisms.
[33:01]I had two spinal fusions.
[33:03]I wear neck brace around my house.
[33:04]Like I can't do the things I used to do.
[33:06]I am not the same person, but you're not wrong.
[33:09]Let me just say that, but you're not wrong.
[33:10]So and then it's okay to say I hope that this book plays
[33:13]into you're being able to find some sort of inner peace
[33:17]and sense and make sense of sort of what's happened
[33:20]and move on because ultimately can't save the world.
[33:25]You have to save like focus maybe on you 100%.
[33:28]And that's why again, writing the book and closing
[33:30]the door would have been perfect.
[33:32]It didn't allow me to because of everything else
[33:34]that's going on.
[33:35]Wow. Well, I'm happy to continue this
[33:38]and another forum, but thank you so much.
[33:41]And again, I'm so sorry that I overspoken
[33:44]about other things.
[33:45]No, it's very interesting.
[33:47]And it's, you know, it's very interesting.
[33:50]But if you want to speak some more even off,
[33:52]you know, maybe as I'm happy, and I do apologize.
[33:55]No, thank you so much.
[33:57]Okay. Thanks for coming. Thanks for coming out of the show.
[33:59]Thanks. Okay. Bye bye.
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[34:08]and you get a month free of Audible on me.
[34:11]Thanks for listening to this episode of Moms Don't Have Time
[34:13]to Read Books.
[34:14]Don't forget to follow me on Instagram at zibi Owens
[34:17]and at Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books.
[34:20]Also sign up for my newsletter at zibi Owens.com
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[34:24]and meet lots of authors on Zoom every other week.
[34:26]Thanks so much to Steve and Ryan at Textures Sound
[34:29]for the sound editing.
[34:30]And thank you to Morning Moon Productions
[34:32]for providing this fantastic intro and now trim music.