Fariha Roisin, LIKE A BIRD
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[1:57]Ferdyha Reisen is an Australian Canadian multidisciplinary artist who's most recent book is called
[2:04]Like a Bird. She works primarily as a writer, editor, podcaster, a visual artist, and an actress
[2:09]and is based in Brooklyn. With an interest in her wellness, Muslim identity, race, self-care,
[2:15]pop culture, and film as well as queerness and how that intersects with being a
[2:19]fem of color navigating a white world. She has written for the New York Times, Al Jazeera,
[2:23]the Guardian, Vice, Fusion, Village Voice, and others. She's also written the self-care column of
[2:28]the hairpin and astrology column for them and the writer at large and culture editor for the juggernaut
[2:34]from 2012 onwards. She co-hosted the podcast to Brown Girls, a podcast that centered
[2:39]Brown and Black voices and film and TV, emphasizing the importance of representation.
[2:43]In 2016, she co-hosted a podcast with a Toronto Film Festival entitled Yo Adrien, which aired for
[2:48]one season. She published her first book, How to Cure a Ghost, as well as a journal on
[2:53]feminine binary body impairment entitled Being in Your Body in 2019. And now, like a bird, is out
[2:59]as well as her first pick of nonfiction who is wellness for on radical wellness, which is coming
[3:04]out next year or 2022. She is the director of studio Ananda, a space of cultivation, an archive
[3:10]for radical anti-colonial wellness, and she writes a weekly newsletter. Welcome, Faria. Thank you so
[3:15]much for coming on mom's don't have time to read books to discuss like a bird and all. Thank you.
[3:21]Oh, thank you for having me. Okay, your book was like, I read it at night and I was so
[3:26]disturbed and scared from some of the scenes. Like, I loved it. It was gripping and powerful. And
[3:32]then I was like, almost like closing my eyes as some of the things were happening. It was like,
[3:37]it's rough to take. I mean, it was gritty and out there. And I mean, that's like what a good
[3:42]book does, right? It makes you feel. So what do you tell listeners what it's about? I mean, it's
[3:47]funny. And close under a close inspection, you know, it's it's about so much more than just I guess
[3:54]the broad strokes, like it's a survivor story, you know, it's a story about this young biracial girl
[4:00]is gang right by a family friend. And it's really in that lurching from her family being disowned
[4:06]by her family that she she realizes that she actually has a lot more autonomy than she ever thought
[4:12]she did. And that for me is such a personal story as well. I think a lot of women probably
[4:19]relate to that experience of being raised a certain way and thinking certain things about
[4:25]your capacity and who you are and how you should be defined and and what determines you.
[4:31]And then you go out into the real world and you're like, oh, I have all of this that I can
[4:37]actually find and discover about myself. So it's all of those things, but it's also the
[4:42]cracking of a family and the rupture that happens when I think people don't talk about their
[4:51]emotions. And when they don't talk about the gravity of what they're feeling and experiencing
[4:56]in a day to day way, you know, there's a lot of themes that might sound kind of out there,
[5:01]but they're also really real like ancestral trauma. You know, it's idea of epigenetics. It's
[5:07]something I really wanted to bring in just even as a subtle motif because again, it's something
[5:12]I think about so much. You know, like some of us do become bears of a burden, a familial burden
[5:19]and we don't even know what it is that we're experiencing. Wow. And this particular family has
[5:25]gone through so much trauma in a relatively short period of time. The scene where you have
[5:30]the mother when the main character is leaving after she's been cast aside and you have the mom
[5:36]like whaling left alone with like her two daughters without them. I mean, it's like I mean, that
[5:43]it's that was so powerful. I know I keep saying the same thing. I'm sorry. I mean, I know you know
[5:49]it's terrible. I'm just really, it's important to hear this honestly. Tell me so how closely does
[5:57]your background align with your characters? Not at all, really. Like, I mean, I'm of South
[6:03]ancient descent and obviously that's something that I mean, tell you the character her mother is
[6:08]half Jewish American and her father is half Bengali Indian. And that was also something I really
[6:14]wanted to explore because again, like the failures of assimilation and the failures of like wanting
[6:22]a life that you think you deserve and you do deserve. But then what has lost in all of all of that,
[6:30]you know, what happens in that transaction when you do prioritize certain things about what your
[6:36]family looks like, what you know, what the facade looks like as opposed to what is going on
[6:41]internally. And her parents are so cool. You know, that's that's something I really wanted to show
[6:46]like Catherine and Adi are both like really smart people. They're very cultured. They have taste.
[6:53]They want to see the world. You know, like Catherine is political. She married her husband even
[7:00]though her parents didn't want her to because she believed in her belief. You know, she she wanted
[7:06]expansion. She wanted to see what was outside. And then she married him. And because they kind of,
[7:12]I think like I don't know, signed on to the same contract of like living a lie together or something
[7:17]that there is just like another rupture that I really I think is so important and such an important
[7:23]facet of the story that I don't think we ever talk about when like parents who are people
[7:29]don't know what to do with themselves. It's so true.
[7:31]You were so funny writing about her mom. You wrote like many white girls, even Jewish ones,
[7:36]mama wanted to cause her Ashkenazi parents deep distressed. She watched as is coming to dinner
[7:42]with a sadistic reverie and preached her friends that the racial divide was the true abomination
[7:47]in American society. Ignorant to the fact that her white girl utopian idealism was a privilege
[7:54]in and of itself. She considered herself a savior and thought her protests were enough.
[7:59]Love it.
[8:01]You know, like it's I mean, I like that you like the humor because I wanted it to be funny as well
[8:10]because we are such like humans are so funny. We're so strange. We have so many contradictions.
[8:17]And you know, it's not like telling us the victim. Everybody's the victim. And that's something
[8:23]that I really also wanted to show. And that's something definitely I can attest to in my own life.
[8:29]Maybe the similarities between me and the families that I had a pretty traumatic life.
[8:34]And I think that's actually kind of common. You know, like we experience so much more than what
[8:40]we're willing to put into language. And you know, like really trying to see them through the
[8:47]lens of humor and trying to place them contextually that's honest in a way that's honest. It was
[8:54]really really important to me. I didn't want it to seem like they were too dimensional. Like
[8:59]that's also why like in the end of the book there's a return to the idea of memory and what is
[9:05]memory. Can we trust it? You know, like she starts to replay these ideas of these memories that
[9:12]she has of her mom and ideas that she has of her mom. And I thought that that was just like
[9:16]even writing them. I was just like, this is I've never seen this anywhere before. You know,
[9:20]that questioning of like, do I have this right? You know, did she love me? Maybe. I don't know.
[9:28]You know, and that was really fun and heartbreaking to play with as someone who feels like she's
[9:34]losing her mind every day. This is very comforting to hear because I'm always like, wait,
[9:38]I'm sure this is what happened when I was growing up. And then of course I'm like,
[9:41]maybe I should call my brother and just find out. And of course I'm like completely wrong.
[9:46]Wow. It's close enough. You know, it's happened with this girl on this Valentine's day. And
[9:52]yeah, you know, you're all you also folks found at these poor parents when you were talking about
[9:58]how they achieved a new.
[10:00]class essentially, right? They had become wealthier throughout their sort of not hippie dippy, but
[10:06]looks right word. Very, very liberal anti-wealth dogma. And then suddenly they're wealthy, but they're
[10:12]they don't want to accept that about themselves because what would that mean to their whole
[10:16]identity? And so they kind of pretend that they're not. And yet, you know, they're like living
[10:23]the high life in some regards. And, you know, I don't know, I thought that was very funny because
[10:28]there's so much of that. I feel like now that, you know, you have to wonder with every all this
[10:32]anti-wealth sentiment everywhere. Well, if if you had, if you won the lottery tomorrow, would you
[10:37]still be with the still be the same rhetoric or would it? Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. And capitalism is
[10:43]a really, you know, especially right now. It's like something that we're all thinking about. I was raised
[10:48]by a Marxist. I was raised by a very intense Marxist and he so he's like very anti-wealth and that's
[10:55]how I was raised. But like I have a lot of family members that are really rich and like, you know,
[11:01]you're always navigating and seeing, you know, how they interact with their wealth. And oftentimes,
[11:06]there is like this. Yeah. I mean, deep uncomfortability with the things that they've achieved. I
[11:12]think so that about my own life. I have a good life. You know, I'm an artist. I'm a writer. Like,
[11:17]I did this on my own. So I think I feel more, you know, vindicated by that. But there are those
[11:22]contradictions that we all have to face. And that's really what the book is trying to get you
[11:26]to do. It's trying to make you question yourself and question the way that you live your life.
[11:31]And it's also not the kindness of strangers. But, but how that there's such capacity,
[11:36]where is there such capacity for these hateful horrific acts? There's equal capacity for love
[11:42]and caring and how I always forget everybody's names and books. But, you know, the coffee shop
[11:46]owner takes her in not only to get her a job, but into her actual home. And then is it
[11:52]Kai who comes into the store and then offers her a place to live as well, having just met her
[11:58]and saying like, he looks like you need a friend. I mean, these are really wonderful things. I
[12:02]think it's important that you highlighted those too, as opposed to just like this tale of doom and
[12:07]gloom, because that is what's so crazy about the world that you can have these diametrically
[12:12]opposed responses to the same person, essentially. Exactly. And that is, again, like another
[12:20]another reflection that I definitely had in my own life, like I moved here when I was
[12:24]I moved from Australia when I was 19 to New York. And didn't know anybody came to go to school.
[12:32]I was very naive, very vulnerable, and met so many people that
[12:37]blended me a hand in one way or another. And after having such a traumatic sort of almost
[12:43]loveless upbringing, I really needed that. I really needed to believe that there were people out
[12:51]there that could offer me things that I felt were just too big. And that's something, again,
[12:57]like I think she tries to explore the guilt and the shame of taking things, of wanting things,
[13:03]of wanting safety. There's a lot of shame around that, because you think that because you've
[13:09]never gotten it, maybe that's just how your life is going to be. And then when someone
[13:12]offers you a hand, it causes you to question everything that you've accepted before that moment.
[13:19]So yeah, I mean, in a way, like I know that it probably seems quite dramatic, but those things
[13:25]that that happened to Talia have all in one way or another happened to me. And I negotiate them
[13:33]as an adult all the time. And the sexual violence didn't happen like that, but sexual violence
[13:39]has happened to me in my life. And I am constantly having to balance those extreme moments with joy
[13:47]and community and real care that to me is the plight of being human, as you kind of said.
[13:55]Wow. So really, just some tiny minor themes here in your book. And I think too,
[13:59]that means you're deep. Did you have a relationship with a tree in the same way?
[14:05]I have, I have really experienced for sure. I mean, I'm definitely a little bit of a coog, I'd say,
[14:12]but like, you know, I do a lot of plant medicine. So like, trees are really, you know, they're really
[14:17]important. I really think that they have so much that the natural world has so much to teach us.
[14:23]That again, like, it is kind of like this, like, sweet sentiment that I wanted to bring out.
[14:29]But like, yeah, when I was young, I didn't have a lot of friends that I could lean on. So the
[14:34]natural world became my friend, like, sticks and stones. You know, like, whether it was like a
[14:39]little patch on the grass that I knew was my, you know, that kind of stuff. You really do,
[14:44]especially when you don't have a lot, you find ways to protect yourself. You know, totems
[14:49]pretty close to actually a totem pole really in form and shape. Exactly. Well, my heart breaks
[14:55]that you experience some of the same things and emotions because the experience of this character,
[15:02]why can I not tell yet broke my heart over and over again. So that sort of devastation and
[15:09]loneliness really was really tough. And I'm sorry if that was part of your upbringing and that's
[15:14]not fair. And that just stinks, honestly. Yeah, I had a really bad life. I had a really hard
[15:22]life for for a really long time. You know, I'm a survivor. I'm a child abuse survivor. So like,
[15:29]all of those things come from deep, deep places that I don't even think that I mean, I,
[15:35]I don't know if you knew this. I wrote this book over 18 years. I started writing it when I was 12.
[15:39]So I actually wrote myself out of my pain. And I mean, through a therapist, I kind of figured
[15:47]out that I was essentially creating this like, even though it wasn't my life, completely, I was
[15:52]creating a story as a way to sort of have a cathartic process. You know, like, I didn't, my family,
[16:00]you know, we didn't know what therapy was. You know, we didn't know like none of those things were
[16:04]options to me 18 years ago. So for whatever reason, I figured out at a young age that I could do
[16:11]this, that I could, I had to survive that I had something to say. And that's like really what carried
[16:17]me through. And I don't even know how I did it. But I did it. My gosh. Well, bravo to you. I mean, that's
[16:22]amazing. When you said you started this 18 years ago, it was like, you must have written this
[16:27]in your five years old. Like, like, did you start this as a drawing? Like, you look so bad
[16:32]every day. But well, I think you might win the award then for longest time, it's ever taken
[16:37]it right at all. Yeah. I mean, you know, it's funny because like, when you write something,
[16:44]when you work on something for so long. And also, I think naturally who I am, I'm very self-critical.
[16:50]You know, that's why it's validating to hear that you like the book because I don't know,
[16:54]you know, I don't know if anyone's reading this book. Like, it's just, it is such a,
[16:58]it becomes such an isolating experience when you put something out because you're just like,
[17:03]I hope for the best. And you know, here's all of my pain and trauma on a page that, you know,
[17:11]I'm trying to like also show people that survivorship is real impossible. But you question yourself,
[17:18]you know, and especially after this long, you're like, is a story even good. And yeah, it's like
[17:24]an everyday process of reminding myself that at least I stuck to something for 18 years. Like,
[17:30]if that's all I have, that's pretty remarkable. And I, and I always have to kind of, yeah,
[17:36]just like pat myself on the back for that because I don't really know how I did it. So it turns
[17:41]out it started on a floppy disk. And you put it on like a CD rock. And now you finally have it
[17:51]your purple drive. The evolution, the evolution, like a bird actually started a baby bird now
[18:00]it's thrown and flown away. So did you start by handwriting now? They're like, tell me, but like,
[18:11]and how did you end up deciding like now is the time? Like, you're still only 30 kind of done
[18:17]another 18 years on it. Yeah. What have been justified? I know. Yeah. So yeah, I started writing it
[18:23]on hand. And then eventually I think when I was maybe a couple months later, we had like a family
[18:29]computer. And I, and I think I was talking to my dad about it who's a professor. He was like,
[18:34]well, if you, you should start typing it, you know, and with his direction, I started typing in
[18:40]and I would show him the pages and just be like, this, this I have a really close connection with
[18:45]my dad. And so I was always looking for his, I guess approval. And then yeah, 18 years later,
[18:52]it's a book. It's a 300 page book. So much work has gone into it. But the evolution is like,
[18:58]I started when I was 12. I finished just a first draft when I was 15 that it's just like more,
[19:04]it was more of a basic simple draft, like all of the things are basically the same,
[19:10]which is wild. But yeah, I finished it when I was 15. Did you lose a sibling?
[19:16]Everything, everything. I didn't personally lose a sibling. No, no, no. Thank God.
[19:20]I was around a lot of death. You know, and like, it was a really palpable thing for me to
[19:27]think about death, like around the time that I started writing this my, my favorite grandfather
[19:33]died. So I think I was just yeah, being faced with a lot of death. And it makes sense to me
[19:41]in the, in the universe of Talia to, to have something that triggers her into motion.
[19:48]You know, it's not the rape, the rape isn't what triggers her. It's this, that's the last straw
[19:53]for her. She's just like, no, fuck this. Like, I don't want to do this anymore. I don't want to live
[19:57]like this anymore. It's really the loss of her sister.
[20:00]and trying to compute why somebody would do this,
[20:03]that brings her to her own evolution.
[20:06]But yeah, and then I sort of formally started writing this book
[20:10]again when I was in my early 20s.
[20:12]So I've been kind of working on it more full-time
[20:14]for about eight years.
[20:16]I mean, it's so crazy to think, when you were 12,
[20:18]you were writing this.
[20:20]And when I was 12, in my journal, it's like,
[20:22]I slow danced with Chris McFarrad.
[20:24]I love that.
[20:27]I feel like a warmly guilty for having these ridiculously
[20:31]middle school, traditional, privileged ups and downs.
[20:37]And then this is going on in your head.
[20:39]It's just insane.
[20:40]And yet here we are as adults, just having a normal conversation.
[20:43]And what you bring to it, what I bring to it,
[20:46]I'm not just saying I haven't had lots of trauma in my life.
[20:48]It's just not at that young age, particularly.
[20:51]And then the way that that informs how you grow up
[20:53]and what you do with love is so important.
[20:55]So anyway, don't you think that we all,
[20:59]I mean, I don't know if this is how you feel
[21:01]but we all become products of our lives.
[21:06]Like we make choices.
[21:08]We, I don't know, at a certain point,
[21:10]I think maybe you did this as well,
[21:12]but I wanted a better life, so I fought for it.
[21:15]And I think the things that happened to me,
[21:18]my therapist might disagree.
[21:19]But I've come to a place of a lot of peace.
[21:23]Like it brings me pain, but I have a lot of peace
[21:25]with my life and because I wouldn't be who I am
[21:29]if I didn't go through it.
[21:30]And I like who I am a lot.
[21:33]And like the fact that I can write this book again,
[21:36]I'm being clownish and like light.
[21:39]I obviously want people to read it.
[21:41]And I obviously want people to connect with it.
[21:44]And that is my offering.
[21:45]You know, like sourcing all this pain
[21:49]and putting it on to a page so people can have a toolkit
[21:52]or they can, you know, like if every survivor
[21:55]is able to read this book,
[21:56]and there's a lot of survivors on this planet,
[21:59]like that would mean so much to me
[22:01]because I think it is really from my heart.
[22:04]It's been written to aid people through this journey.
[22:07]It's beautiful that you did that.
[22:09]I feel like I should be good at theme song
[22:11]to this episode.
[22:12]That's like...
[22:13]I'm a survivor.
[22:14]Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
[22:22]Thank you, rude.
[22:24]That's been singing.
[22:24]That's my first singing out of my guest ever in my last.
[22:28]Yeah.
[22:29]It's great.
[22:31]Thank you.
[22:32]So what's coming next for you?
[22:33]In 20, let's see, 2038.
[22:36]Well, you have your next novel.
[22:37]Thank you for your next novel.
[22:39]Yeah, so I'm working on another novel,
[22:41]which I'm really excited about.
[22:42]It's, I mean, it's still really early stages.
[22:46]So I won't talk about it actually,
[22:47]but I'm also writing a book of poetry called
[22:50]survival takes a while to imagination.
[22:53]And then I have my fourth book that comes out,
[22:57]January 2022 or spring 2022,
[23:01]about the wellness industrial complex.
[23:03]It's my first nonfiction.
[23:05]So I'm kind of diving into, again,
[23:08]like the things that we're talking about, you know, trauma
[23:10]and my own experience and rooting it in my own experience,
[23:13]but also looking at the failures of the wellness
[23:16]industrial complex and how like we very much owe it
[23:19]to one another to care more about one another
[23:22]and especially in this climate
[23:25]and everything that's happening
[23:26]and where the world is going, you know, with climate change.
[23:29]So yeah, it's gonna be really, really interesting, I think.
[23:34]So those are my two major book projects
[23:37]that are coming up and then the novel,
[23:39]I think in a couple of years.
[23:41]So stay tuned.
[23:42]Okay.
[23:43]And then I'm writing some screenplays as well.
[23:49]Wow. A lot of things are happening.
[23:51]That's great.
[23:52]Well, that's great.
[23:54]As they shed, I mean, you deserve nothing
[23:56]but success having, especially having taken
[24:00]what was so painful for you and given it as you said,
[24:03]as an offering to others, you know,
[24:04]I hope that the circle of sort of life
[24:07]sort of gives back to you what you needed from it.
[24:08]And thanks, great.
[24:10]Sure.
[24:11]Do you have any advice to aspiring authors?
[24:13]Trust your voice.
[24:15]Don't let anyone tell you that you don't have something
[24:18]to say if you feel like you do really trust it and nurture it
[24:23]and read a lot, you know, like I think enough writers
[24:27]or enough people don't read.
[24:28]Like we do need to read more.
[24:31]I know that your podcast is about that.
[24:35]I like it.
[24:37]I agree.
[24:37]Yeah, I agree.
[24:38]Not enough people read.
[24:41]I actually read some crazy statistics recently
[24:43]like the average American like reads one book every two years.
[24:47]I probably just botched that statistics.
[24:48]So nobody quote me on this or write it down
[24:50]or even just pretend you didn't hear me say that.
[24:52]But it's something like that.
[24:53]Like people hardly, it's a lot of people hardly ever read.
[24:56]And a lot of people don't even own a lot of books
[24:58]or any books.
[24:59]I just like donated some books to the school in Texas
[25:02]and none of the kids had ever owned a book before.
[25:05]And we're writing me all these thinking notes.
[25:07]Like what?
[25:08]Oh my gosh, I get to take it home.
[25:10]I get to keep it.
[25:11]And it's a, yeah, I get more notes
[25:13]like every day from this school.
[25:15]Anyway, so, and then I feel like, you know,
[25:17]I'm surrounded by books and they're like how I stay sane
[25:20]and they've helped me through everything
[25:22]that I've ever gone through in my life.
[25:23]And I think, wow, you know, I have these talismans of stories
[25:27]and experiences and I just look and I remember them.
[25:29]And you know, now I'll have yours.
[25:32]You know, I mean, like, and then it just brings it all back.
[25:34]And anyway, yes, so I think people should make time for books
[25:37]and find ways to get books in everybody's hands.
[25:40]I mean, I love that sentiment.
[25:42]I think that we reading is just,
[25:44]reading is how I survive.
[25:46]I, if I couldn't have gone into different universes,
[25:49]I don't know what I would have done with myself.
[25:51]So absolutely, it breaks my heart that people
[25:54]that young kids don't have access to that.
[25:56]You should, by the way, I was gonna say this earlier,
[25:59]not that it's any of my business,
[26:00]but you should go to schools.
[26:02]I don't know if you're doing that or not,
[26:03]but you should like put yourself on the school circuit
[26:05]and go in and have locks and like go to middle schools.
[26:10]And you know, or know what's going on with people
[26:12]during that time.
[26:13]And they might really need to hear it in the moment.
[26:16]So I think you should try to target.
[26:18]I know it's a lot this book,
[26:20]but I think you should do it.
[26:22]I think you should try a few schools
[26:24]and see what happens,
[26:26]because I think you'll be surprised
[26:27]at how much you'll be able to effect change at that level.
[26:30]Yeah.
[26:31]Okay, thank you.
[26:32]I'm gonna listen to that.
[26:34]Okay, just my two cents, you know, for what it's worth.
[26:37]Yeah, yeah.
[26:39]All right.
[26:40]Well, this has been unexpectedly fun.
[26:41]I thought this would be so deep and disturbing and intense.
[26:46]And so I think I had to lighten it up a bit
[26:49]as like self protection or something from one of us.
[26:51]But anyway, thank you.
[26:52]This book was beautiful.
[26:53]Your writing style is beautiful.
[26:55]And when you said you weren't sure people were gonna read it
[26:58]or whatever, I found your writing style
[27:00]to be something that was so captivating
[27:03]and a little bit different and a unique voice.
[27:06]And so I just kept reading and reading
[27:07]and I really liked it.
[27:08]So there you have it.
[27:11]Thank you, Sabie.
[27:12]Thank you for having me on your podcast.
[27:14]All right, thanks for coming.
[27:16]I'll talk to you soon.
[27:17]Yeah, you posted.
[27:18]Keep me back on the meeting of life and everything.
[27:21]Okay.
[27:22]Okay.
[27:23]Bye.
[27:25]Thanks so much to Farity brand for being my sponsor
[27:28]this week, Faritybrand.com and her code Zibi for 25% off.
[27:33]Thanks for listening to this episode of Moms.
[27:35]Don't have time to read books.
[27:37]Don't forget to follow me on Instagram at Zibi Owens
[27:40]and at Moms.
[27:41]Don't have time to read books.
[27:42]Also sign up for my newsletter at Zibi Owens.com
[27:44]and sign up for my virtual book club
[27:46]and meet lots of authors on Zoom every other week.
[27:49]Thanks so much to Steve and Ryan at Texturesound
[27:51]for the Sound Editing.
[27:52]And thank you to Morning Moon Productions
[27:54]for providing this fantastic intro and outro music.