Kim Brooks, SMALL ANIMALS
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[2:15]Kim Brooks is the author of Small Animals, Parenthood in the Age of Fear, an NPR best book of
[2:20]the year described by the National Book Review as an impassioned smart work of social criticism
[2:25]and a call for support and empathy.
[2:27]Her writing has appeared in The New York Times, New York Magazine,
[2:30]Goodhousekeeping, Chicago Magazine, Salon Buzzfeed, and other publications.
[2:34]She has spoken as a guest on CBS this morning,
[2:37]PBS NewsHour 2020, NPR's All Things Considered, Good Morning America, The Brian
[2:42]Layer Show, and many other radio shows and podcasts.
[2:44]Her novel The House Guess was published in 2016.
[2:48]She currently lives in Chicago.
[2:49]Hi.
[2:51]I'm sorry, I'm a minute late.
[2:54]I listened to your book.
[2:56]I like listened to most of it in the car on a few drives.
[2:59]So I feel like you're like my friends.
[3:01]You know, I mean, I'm so used to your voice.
[3:04]It's been like all I've been listening to.
[3:06]So anyway, thank you.
[3:09]I was, it was fun to record.
[3:11]I'd never done anything like that before.
[3:13]And I was like, by the time we got to the end, I was like,
[3:16]wow, acting is really work.
[3:17]Actors work.
[3:21]I mean, not that I, you know, I guess I did kind of think they didn't work,
[3:24]but no, it's hard to read something that long.
[3:27]Yeah, I bet.
[3:29]But fun to listen to.
[3:30]Okay, small animals, parenthood in the age of fear.
[3:33]This was so great.
[3:35]I literally like the first chapter.
[3:37]I was like, wow, like this person gets it.
[3:40]Like nobody else.
[3:41]And I'm sure people will tell you this all the time.
[3:43]But I have four kids myself.
[3:45]And I hadn't even read your book.
[3:47]I don't know how I had missed it.
[3:48]But I read your fantastic New York Times article
[3:50]about divorce in the Corona era.
[3:52]And I was like, I have to talk to you.
[3:53]And then I read your book.
[3:54]And I was like, so anyway, here we are.
[3:58]Would you mind telling people who have not read small animals
[4:01]what this book is about and what inspired you to write it?
[4:04]Particularly, you know, the incident.
[4:06]Sure.
[4:08]Well, the incident that kind of sparked the book took place.
[4:11]It's quite a while ago now.
[4:13]So let's see, I think on about nine years ago now.
[4:17]And I was home visiting my parents in Virginia.
[4:19]I live in Chicago.
[4:21]And I was with my kids and my son who was about four and a half at the time.
[4:26]The day that we were leaving, I ran to a store about a mile for my parents' house.
[4:33]And this is very like suburban, you know, rural suburban area where I grew up.
[4:39]And when we got to the store, he asked if he could wait in the car.
[4:42]I was just going in to get one thing.
[4:45]And so I let him wait in the car for about five minutes,
[4:49]which was something that I honestly always remember doing as a kid.
[4:52]I mean, in the same area, like I remembered waiting in the car
[4:56]for my parents, it's, you know, ran into the store or, you know,
[5:01]went to look at furniture at Sears or whatever.
[5:05]Like I just always remember like sitting in the car.
[5:07]And it was like a pleasurable memory.
[5:09]And I thought, you know, this is just just like a quick five minute thing.
[5:13]So I pulled up in front.
[5:14]I got, when I got back to the car, everything was fine.
[5:17]He was playing with my mom's iPad.
[5:19]And we headed back to Chicago.
[5:22]And I would, it was only later that I found out
[5:24]that someone who I would never meet and never see had seen me run into the store
[5:31]and let him wait there and had called the police.
[5:33]And the police had then showed up at my parents' house.
[5:37]And they were sort of looking for me and wanted to press charges
[5:41]because they viewed, you know, that I had done something dangerous.
[5:46]So it was just this one incident that kind of snowballed into like a year and a half
[5:52]of various types of difficulty, legal and otherwise in my life.
[5:59]But that's not really what the book is about.
[6:01]So the book, that's kind of the narrative like backbone of the book.
[6:06]But what the book is really about I think is, you know, me kind of examining like
[6:11]our notions of what it means to be a good parent and what it means to protect our children.
[6:17]And kind of thinking about why those ideas have changed so radically in the course of
[6:24]a generation or two, you know, kind of for the first, and this, it was really the first point
[6:29]in my life when this happened that I started to think, you know, until then I was very much kind
[6:34]of going with the pack running with the herd of anxious parents.
[6:39]And that was the first moment when I was like, you know, this, this is kind of strange how
[6:44]obsessed everybody is with protecting and safety and kind of fear of public spaces in a way
[6:51]that is so different from just, you know, 30 years ago. And so like why have things changed?
[6:57]Is the world more dangerous for kids? And if not, which is what I found out,
[7:03]then what's happening? What's happening to kind of the culture of parenthood?
[7:07]I agree. I think that's what your book's about to.
[7:10]And it was so interesting to get that lens. I mean, I feel like I don't know exactly
[7:14]who old you are, but I also grew up, I'm 44 now. And so I grew up in a time where I like sat
[7:19]in the back of the station wagon all the time while my mom went in. And okay, one time I like
[7:23]crawled in the front and smashed it into a dumpster. But for the most part, like I was left and
[7:28]I was fine. And that's just what happened. And, you know, I watch even home videos and my brother and
[7:33]and I are like playing like about to fall in the pool of 10. Like she's like sunbathing. Like
[7:38]it's just that it is the way it was. And like in your scene, you had, you know, when you visited
[7:43]your family and your mom was playing Majang or something in the other room with her friends and
[7:47]talking about like how crazy we all are as a generation of parents and how they had done it.
[7:52]Like I just so related to that because there is this like even within families,
[7:57]sort of culture shock and parenthood that like has everybody scratching their heads. And you tried
[8:02]explaining it. I shouldn't say try to. You tried to unearth what the root cause of all of that was.
[8:09]And I just so appreciated you trying to like, you know, unlock the key to all of that because it
[8:15]affects me. So unlike a daily basis, and I'm sure so many other people. Yeah, I mean, I should say
[8:20]it's funny. I'm about the same age. I'm 42. And it's interesting that you bring up your
[8:26]childhood. And I think about it a lot. And I should say that, you know, there's many kind of strands
[8:31]to the mystery that I tried to tease out in the book. But I do think that one of those strands
[8:38]is sort of a reaction in people our generation against maybe some of the permissiveness of,
[8:46]you know, the 80s culture and sort of like not all of us, but I think a lot of us feel like
[8:52]our parents were very distracted or very focused on kind of themselves, you know, it was a time
[8:59]where there was just a lot of a lot of divorce, a lot of, you know, women on the one hand were
[9:05]going back into the workforce, which was wonderful, but our country didn't really step up to
[9:11]you know, provide any kind of system for like support, you know, national daycare or
[9:17]leave or anything like that. So there was this kind of like frantic sense of like, you know,
[9:22]nobody's watching the kids like that was kind of a cultural anxiety. And I think that from the
[9:28]kids perspective, I think there was sometimes a feeling of like that there was a lack of sort of
[9:33]presence of adult presence in our lives. Some of that, I think, of people have very nostalgic
[9:39]positive memories of that kind of independence in childhood. But I also think some of us have
[9:45]have negative memories too. But I think what's happened is with our generation, there's been kind
[9:50]of an over correction. And so there's this sense of like, it's funny, this is a slight digression,
[9:57]but I was watching big with my dog.
[10:00]or a few nights ago.
[10:01]And we've kind of got it.
[10:03]She's 10 now.
[10:04]And we've gotten on this 80s movie kick.
[10:08]And one thing I noticed that I thought was so funny
[10:11]was, have you seen Big?
[10:13]I saw it with my kids recently.
[10:14]So keep going.
[10:15]Yes.
[10:17]So obviously, there's tons of things
[10:19]you're like, oh my god, that's so difficult.
[10:21]The lead woman character is smoking.
[10:24]I mean, it really is funny thing.
[10:25]My daughter's like, why is she smoking?
[10:28]I'm like, yeah, people did it.
[10:31]So but the funny thing that I caught was
[10:33]that scene where Tom Hanks and the girlfriend
[10:37]are at the dinner party and the guy's kid comes in,
[10:40]the guy who's hosting the dinner party
[10:42]and says, you know, dad, I need help with my homework
[10:45]and the guy's kind of like, not now.
[10:48]So, you know, I'm doing something at all.
[10:50]And I just thought like, that would never even be
[10:53]in a movie.
[10:54]Like it would be so unimaginable to show that scene
[10:58]where like a parent says, I'm doing an adult thing.
[11:02]Go deal with this yourself, you know?
[11:04]And I thought if they shut that movie now,
[11:06]it would be like, you know, everything would stop
[11:09]all, you know, the parent would kind of have this
[11:11]very public display of, I'm gonna help my son, you know?
[11:15]And it just, it just was one of those small details
[11:17]about how much like the culture, you know,
[11:20]the culture has changed.
[11:22]I was thinking when I watched it, maybe like,
[11:24]I couldn't believe the kids were just wandering around
[11:25]the neighborhood by themselves all the time.
[11:27]biking and wandering and like, who, what?
[11:30]They just like go in and out of the house whenever they want.
[11:32]And that was the part that I was like, wow,
[11:34]and they were so little too in the movie.
[11:37]Well, especially like the friends,
[11:38]like the whole premise is his friend keeps coming
[11:41]into New York City.
[11:42]Yes, that too.
[11:43]I mean, he's like, I just got to be home by 10.
[11:46]So, yeah, exactly.
[11:48]But I mean, there was, it's like,
[11:50]that was, you know, there were no cell phones.
[11:52]There were no GPS tracking devices.
[11:56]And so, you know, the two alternatives were either,
[11:59]you kept your kid literally locked inside the house
[12:02]till they were 18, or you gave them some independence
[12:05]and you tried to teach them, you know, scales
[12:08]and you gave them some freedom.
[12:10]But I think now, I mean, maybe somewhat,
[12:12]it is caused by technology.
[12:14]There's the sense that like, we can be watching our kids
[12:18]all the time and we can be connected to our kids
[12:20]all the time, but then there's the question of should we?
[12:23]And what kind of happens if we accept that?
[12:25]I have this confession, which I haven't even thought about
[12:28]in a while, but I was so like, on top of my twins
[12:32]from the moment they were born.
[12:33]Now my last two kids, I'm like, much, much better.
[12:36]I'm not so crazy, but my twins, I was like, I stayed home
[12:39]with them and so it was my job and I was gonna not
[12:41]let them out of my site and I was like,
[12:44]and then when they went to school for their first field trip,
[12:47]I was like, well, what do you mean?
[12:48]You're just gonna take them on a two and a half hour drive.
[12:50]What if something happens?
[12:51]What if there's an accident?
[12:52]What if, what if, what if, and so I got them
[12:54]and these little, like, GPS things and I like,
[12:57]yeah, there are backpacks.
[13:00]And then all day, I was like, are they okay?
[13:02]It's kind of raining.
[13:03]I don't know, what if the road's still free?
[13:04]I mean, this is obviously my own issue.
[13:05]And I'm like, you know, as I said, I'm better now.
[13:08]But as a first time parent, I was like, and it's crazy.
[13:11]I mean, I would like go away with friends for entire weekends
[13:13]and you know, whatever.
[13:15]They'd be like, fine, goodbye.
[13:16]Have fun in Woodstock, you know?
[13:18]Right, it's just, yeah, exactly.
[13:21]The technology has changed our notions
[13:23]of what is possible in a way that, yeah.
[13:26]But I also loved and not to jump around too much.
[13:29]But like, I loved your chapter on moms competing
[13:32]against each other and why everyone is so quick
[13:35]to like put down each other's choices
[13:37]and why when we should all be, you know,
[13:40]lifting each other up and, you know, being one big community,
[13:43]moms are so quick to put down other people's choices
[13:45]with basically stems, of course,
[13:47]from not feeling confident essentially in your own choice.
[13:51]And that's so much of the time.
[13:52]It's not even really a choice.
[13:54]It's where you just had to end up
[13:55]and instead of being upset or something,
[13:58]you have to just own it and so you like double down on it
[14:01]and they're like, well, I picked this,
[14:03]so shame on you for not picking the same thing.
[14:07]Anyway, it was a summary, but.
[14:09]Yeah, I mean, I should say like,
[14:11]I feel like when I wrote the book,
[14:13]which was a number of years ago now,
[14:15]like I was in media moment of feeling, you know,
[14:18]a little bit disenchanted
[14:20]by that kind of competitive mom culture.
[14:23]But, you know, as the years have passed
[14:25]and I've like reflected on it more,
[14:27]I really want to say that like,
[14:29]I actually, I don't blame moms at all
[14:32]for feeling competitive or insecure
[14:35]or, you know, like comparing themselves
[14:38]to others to other mothers.
[14:40]I think that we kind of live in this culture
[14:43]that undermines women and undermines mothers
[14:46]in so many different ways, both subtle and overt.
[14:50]We kind of get the message that women don't know
[14:54]what's best for their own children.
[14:56]You have to defer to some authority figure
[14:59]and it, you know, it's things as outrageous
[15:02]as like women being arrested for making reasonable
[15:06]parenting choices to like small things, you know,
[15:09]kind of small condescensions that take place
[15:12]or just like the culture that tells us like the answer
[15:15]is in a book we need to buy or a product we need to buy
[15:19]or a blog we need to subscribe to or whatever
[15:22]when really like most women know what's best
[15:27]for their children and, you know,
[15:28]and I think that that's one of the hopefully,
[15:33]one of the good things that will come,
[15:35]I hope from the pandemic kind of in the aftermath
[15:38]is that I do think there's been more and more women
[15:41]who are saying, who are kind of taking ownership
[15:44]of their choices and taking control of it and saying, you know,
[15:48]like maybe how my kid does on the standardized test
[15:53]in the context of like a worldwide play
[15:55]isn't the most important thing, you know,
[15:58]maybe we have kind of different values,
[16:00]maybe, you know, sitting in front of the computer all day
[16:03]isn't the best way and, you know,
[16:06]I'm gonna homeschool or I'm gonna work with my neighbors
[16:09]or, you know, do things that sort of a year or two ago
[16:13]would have seemed really radical
[16:15]and like unconventional choices
[16:17]and now we've kind of been given an opportunity to do that.
[16:21]Very true.
[16:22]You also point out how there is no such thing
[16:24]as basically harassment of a mom, right?
[16:28]That there's like sexual harassment suits
[16:30]and all these other ways which other groups are protected
[16:33]but not really for moms.
[16:35]Like anyone can poke their nose in your business.
[16:37]The policeman can have feel like he has a right
[16:40]to interrupt somebody at Starbucks,
[16:41]like you wrote about or any of that.
[16:43]And the moms kind of just have to take it
[16:45]whereas if it was a dad,
[16:47]be like, oh, he must've had something really important to do.
[16:49]It's no biggie.
[16:50]I don't know, I found that very interesting.
[16:52]Yeah, I mean, I think unfortunately I think it's true.
[16:56]I think it's still very true.
[16:57]I think that there's kind of a sense that
[17:00]if we can pose something as being an issue of child safety,
[17:04]then mothers have no rights, right?
[17:07]Then that priority takes away any kind of rights of a mother
[17:11]and any kind of rights of a child,
[17:14]that the children don't have rights to do things either
[17:17]if there's any risk to their safety.
[17:20]But the problem is being the live is risky
[17:23]and being a person in the world is risky.
[17:26]I know in the book there's a point
[17:29]where I interview this social scientist at UC Irvine
[17:32]and she kind of makes that point
[17:33]where she says, you know, if I some politician,
[17:37]I won't name any in particular,
[17:39]but if some politician got on TV and said, you know,
[17:43]I love women so much and we just need to protect them
[17:48]from something terrible happening to them
[17:50]and women are abducted by strangers or assaulted.
[17:53]So women need to not be out in public by themselves
[17:57]just because I want to protect them.
[18:00]We would say, you know, thanks, but no thanks, right?
[18:03]I'll take that risk because we want to be people
[18:06]who move through the world.
[18:08]And what this woman said, this social scientist was that,
[18:11]you know, will people will say that that doesn't,
[18:13]that same principle doesn't apply to children.
[18:16]And she says, I don't think that's exactly right.
[18:18]Obviously it's not the same,
[18:20]but children do have some rights
[18:22]and children have some rights to some amount of risk.
[18:27]So interesting.
[18:28]Wow.
[18:29]And now the most recent article you wrote for The Times,
[18:32]which was so good and I am divorced
[18:34]and it's been five years and remarried,
[18:36]but, you know, COVID has elevated some issues
[18:40]sort of under the surface as it most stressful things
[18:43]are want to do.
[18:44]And so I, you know, I found myself particularly relating
[18:47]to your essay, but the fact you almost point out
[18:51]that like, well, why don't you say more about it?
[18:55]There's so many different pieces of it that I found
[18:58]so interesting, not the least of which is that you had
[19:00]to like do all the court stuff and finalize everything
[19:03]with your lawyers on Zoom, which is crazy.
[19:05]And I also felt like having just finished this book,
[19:07]I was like, no, they broke up, you know, so anyway.
[19:12]Yeah, well, that's the thing.
[19:14]I mean, so we did break up,
[19:16]but he is, as I say in the essay,
[19:18]he lives across the street.
[19:20]And which, and I live here, I live here with my partner,
[19:24]who's hiding upstairs and he lives with his partner
[19:27]and I should say we were separated for a long time
[19:31]before we divorced.
[19:33]So some people had written to me
[19:35]and they were like, how did you find another partner
[19:37]in the middle of a pandemic?
[19:39]We were separated for some time.
[19:43]But you know, I just, I think that there's this idea
[19:48]that divorce sort of has to be a tragedy for children
[19:53]and for family and that if you get divorced from someone,
[19:57]it means that you hate them and you blame that.
[20:00]Um, and there's all this conflict and animosity and I'm not going to say that there
[20:05]haven't been any moments of conflict. Obviously, you know, there's conflict when you're
[20:10]dealing with like a big change. But overall, I think that we both kind of chose to take
[20:16]the view that this was something that was good for both of us, you know, that and that
[20:22]and that the fact that it was, we were moving from being husband and wife to being co-parents
[20:28]and friends and next door neighbors for the time being, that that didn't have to be a tragic
[20:33]thing that it might be hard, it might be a transition, but that, you know, we were married for 16 years
[20:39]and we didn't kill each other and we brought two amazing kids into the world and that, you know,
[20:47]we could like cherish that and still say this is the best thing for both of us and see it as a kind
[20:52]of growth, you know, and, and a restructuring of our family as opposed to, you know, the
[20:59]destruction of our family, which is I think kind of the traditional way we think about divorce.
[21:04]I love that the divorce layer said she was in family restructuring. That's so genius. I love it.
[21:11]Oh my gosh. So I want to thank you though. I'm just curious. Sure. So you've been
[21:17]divorced for five years and so were your kids pretty young when that was? Yes. So they were
[21:24]very, very young. I have four kids and we separated when my, my youngest was about nine months old.
[21:34]But it had, I mean, I'm not supposed to talk about it publicly, but yeah, it had been brewing.
[21:40]This was no this, you know, I just was curious more about like, did you find in the years that
[21:49]followed that there was still a lot of stigma to sort of being a divorced person with small children
[21:56]because that's kind of the thing that I found interesting is that I sort of thought like, you know,
[22:02]well, I mean, I guess I thought those things because I've internalized the stigma,
[22:06]but then I was also conscious of it. And it is, it is funny that, you know, it's, it's 2020,
[22:13]but it was still that it's still sort of stigmatized to have kids and, you know, to, to say,
[22:18]no, I'm getting into divorce, you know, and this is what's for the best and that there were
[22:22]so so many people who sort of but, you know, viewed it as like this horrible that it has to be
[22:29]like a horrible thing. Did you have a similar? Yes, I did. And I was shocked actually by the responses
[22:35]when I started telling people about it, which I've, by the time I finished sort of telling
[22:39]and everything, water and I realized it has all to do with their own marriages, right? People's
[22:44]responses, it's all about how they feel, has nothing to do with me and my kids and my kids lives or
[22:51]anything, but I didn't know that at the time. So I feel like I've tried to tell people who I know
[22:56]who are like newly getting divorced like, okay, take all the responses with a grain of salt, right?
[23:02]But yeah, I had people like bursting into tears and be like, but you're kids and I'm like,
[23:07]yeah, I know, but I actually believe strongly this decision is the best thing for my kids and I
[23:12]still believe that and it sucks and it's hard and it's not to say I don't cry still a lot when
[23:17]they leave or if they get sad, you know, now my youngest is on the sixth. So this has been
[23:22]their whole lives, my two youngest, and my oldest are twins, they're 13. So they're used to it now,
[23:27]but yeah, a lot of people were like, are you sure that, you know, are you sure like the poor kids,
[23:33]you know, and I'm like, well, you don't know, you don't know what it was or what it will be,
[23:37]you just don't know. Right, right, but I think you're right that it has more to deal with
[23:42]with people's own insecurity, right? And it's like there's a lot of people who like don't
[23:48]want it divorced to be a reasonable choice because it divorces, it's not about, it's not about
[23:54]obviously people like you and I aren't going around saying everybody should get divorced.
[23:59]No, no, I wish I weren't, I mean, you know, but it's like, but when people say, you know,
[24:07]but for me, for us, for our family, this was the best choice, you know, to some people who have
[24:13]put up with a lot or who have accepted less than, you know, really unsatisfying relationships,
[24:19]it's like, oh, that's a choice. That's a reasonable choice. You can make, it's very,
[24:25]can be very destabilizing. Yes. And for so many people feel so trapped and that they want to leave
[24:32]but they can't or they can't afford to leave or they can't. I mean, there's so many reasons why
[24:39]people stay. Even yesterday, I just saw this ad for Purina Dogchow that said there's like this
[24:45]new initiative because 47% of domestic abuse victims don't leave because they don't want to leave
[24:52]their pets, which I thought was so interesting. Like, I'm like, okay, so now there's like another
[24:57]wrinkle. Like, so I don't know, it's very hard and, you know, if you can and you need to and you're
[25:05]able to, that's one thing that somebody people aren't able to. And yes, and you're just a mirror,
[25:10]you're just a mirror for their feelings or their feelings of failure or their sadness that
[25:15]what they don't have and whatever. But it sort of circles back it to the book is issues about
[25:24]in the book about when, you know, it's true that it's very hard for a lot of people to leave. But
[25:30]some of that I think has to do with our lack of kind of autonomy as parents and our lack of like
[25:38]a support system, our lack of like a wider community or sort of social social safety nets, right,
[25:44]that people feel feel trapped sometimes in unhealthy marriages because women literally are trapped
[25:52]because they're financially dependent, dependent in other ways. And that that's, you know,
[25:58]that that's something that hopefully will start to change. I mean, I feel like the only times
[26:03]that I really feel like I'm in a community and not to say I don't have a lot of friends and
[26:08]people I love and people who are great with my kids, but it's only when something absolutely
[26:13]terrible happens or I cannot move when I actually feel that like, hey, can you pick up the kids
[26:19]today? Can you would you mind taking so-and-so home with you or something? And then people are of
[26:24]course. And like I would love to help other people. It's just not like it's not as it's just not
[26:30]at least in my cult. I mean, I hope that this is different in some other communities where
[26:34]people do take, but I feel like in your experience in mine, that's not what it has been like,
[26:38]which is a shame. No, it is a shame. And I think it's very much due to this culture of the nuclear
[26:44]family and this sort of idea that it's it's every mom for herself. It's every nuclear family for
[26:50]themselves and that, you know, to ask for help or or to reach out is to sort of like
[26:58]impose impose on people. You know, instead of like, no, this is what humans do, is they help each
[27:05]other out. I mean, one of the saddest parts of writing small animals was when I talked to this woman,
[27:12]Deborah Harrell, who was an African-American woman, who she was charged with endangerment or neglect
[27:18]letting her, her daughter play on supervised in a park while she went to work one day at McDonald's
[27:26]because she didn't have childcare. Her childcare fell through. The daughter was completely fine.
[27:31]And you know, there was a very busy park with tons of adults. There was like a camp running there.
[27:37]There were like a lot of kids. And when I was doing that part of the book, I watched online.
[27:44]There was a date, they since took it down, but there was a video of her being interrogated by
[27:49]this police officer. And after she was arrested, and he just kept kind of belittling her and saying,
[27:58]this is your daughter. You know, she's your responsibility. Nobody else is. Nobody else is
[28:04]responsible for this girl. And I, and she was crying as he said this. And I just thought it's just
[28:11]so heartbreaking because on the one hand, it's like, this woman knows that no one else is looking out
[28:16]for her kid. I mean, this is a single mom who's taking care of her kid on her own, you know.
[28:22]And second of all, I thought it's true. And isn't that a tragedy? I mean, isn't that so heartbreaking
[28:29]that we live in a country where nobody cares about other people's kids? And that the expectation
[28:36]is that you look out for your kid and no one else is and no one's going to do it for you. And it's
[28:42]really sad. And again, you know, I hope that that's something that will change as we kind of
[28:48]reexamine everything. So what is your like, what's coming next for you? And what are you up to? And
[28:55]all that now. Well, so I am actually working on a new book about marriage and divorce and female
[29:05]friendship and a bunch of other things. I think it's going to be called nobody's okay on marriage,
[29:12]madness, and rebellion. And it's sort of it's a memoir and kind of general nonfiction. And it sort
[29:20]of is kind of takes up where small animals leave leaves off. So it's like the last six years in my
[29:26]life kind of navigating all of these things. And I'm very excited about it. My agent was going to
[29:34]send it out to publishers about a week ago, but we decided that everyone was too distracted
[29:40]by the election. Like literally, like I went to Starbucks and the woman giving me my coffee wanted
[29:45]to talk about the debate with me. So you know, everyone's very anxious and focused right now. So
[29:53]anyway, we said that we're going to send it out after the election. But that's hopefully
[29:57]it will be my next project.
[30:00]And do you have any advice to aspiring authors?
[30:03]Gosh, I guess my advice is to just
[30:08]be kind of compassionate with yourself,
[30:11]and to sort of see writing or whatever
[30:14]you're trying to do as kind of to look at the long game.
[30:18]I write a little bit about this in small animals
[30:20]and more so in this new book.
[30:22]But I think about the many years of feeling
[30:26]like I wasn't a real writer
[30:29]because I hadn't published a book, you know,
[30:31]and feeling like even though I was writing all the time,
[30:35]like it didn't count somehow.
[30:37]And, you know, of course that just made everything worse.
[30:40]So I guess just, this is not very original,
[30:43]but just, you know, a writer as somebody who writes
[30:46]and that, you know, just because you haven't reached
[30:49]the milestone you might want to yet
[30:51]doesn't mean you're not going to get there eventually.
[30:54]Love it.
[30:55]Well, thank you, Kim.
[30:56]Thanks for talking today.
[30:57]Thanks for your book and your article and all the rest.
[30:59]And I can't wait for your next book.
[31:01]It's awesome.
[31:01]Thank you.
[31:02]It was great talking to you too.
[31:03]You too.
[31:04]All right, take care.
[31:05]Bye-bye.
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