Laura Vanderkam, THE NEW CORNER OFFICE
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[2:33]Laura Vandercamp is the author of several time management and productivity books,
[2:37]including Juliette School possibilities off the clock. I know how she does it.
[2:42]What the most successful people do before breakfast and 168 hours, her work has appeared in
[2:47]publications, including the New York Times, the Wall Street Journal, Fast Company, and Fortune.
[2:52]She is the host of the podcast before breakfast, and the co-host with Sarah Hart Unger of
[2:56]the podcast Best of Both Worlds. She lives outside Philadelphia with her husband and five
[3:01]children and blogs at LauraVandercamp.com. Her latest book, which we're going to discuss, is called
[3:07]The New Corner Office. Welcome, Laura. Thanks for coming back on mom's don't have time to read
[3:12]books after I am mistakenly deleted our episode. So thank you. No, well, thanks for having me back,
[3:18]and not just leaving at the trash can. I appreciate that. So ironic, because you're like a time
[3:23]management expert, essentially, is an addition to like other amazing skills. And we had this
[3:28]great conversation about like using time efficiently and managing our time and all this other stuff.
[3:32]And then I wasted your time completely by having them fight. It does not record. So anyway,
[3:37]here we are. It's fine. And here I was five minutes late to this one, because I was using the wrong
[3:41]link. So I know I was really like about to go digging for the time zone. And I'm like, really,
[3:46]did I mess this up again? But anyway, these things happen. Nobody's perfect. Okay. Okay. So let's
[3:53]talk about your book, The New Corner Office, how the most successful people work from home,
[3:57]which basically is everybody right now, watch everybody right now. Give listeners the
[4:02]lowdown on what this book really helps people do and how you can empower people to work more
[4:08]successfully from home. Yeah. Well, I wrote this book after I noticed in March that there were a
[4:14]lot of people who are working from home for the first time and suffering through a lot of really
[4:19]terrible Zoom happy hours. And that they were probably going to be looking for advice on how to do
[4:25]this long term to work from home both productively and ambitiously. So, you know, I crank this out,
[4:33]got tips on how you can redesign your work days to take advantage of some of the upsides of working
[4:40]from home, how you can handle a self-directed schedule, how you can stay social and build your
[4:46]network when you're working from home. How you can think big about your career and how you can
[4:49]take care of yourself at the same time. How do you want to hear all of those things?
[4:55]Where do we start? How do you stay social and expand your network while at home?
[5:01]Yeah. So, it is challenging. I think there's a bit of a false view of this though. I know in the past
[5:08]when people were asking to work from home and negotiating to work from home that term and applying
[5:13]you need to give something up in order to do it. One of the arguments against it was that,
[5:17]relationships are best built face to face and obviously when you're working from home you are
[5:21]then not face to face with many of your colleagues on those days. But very few places going forward
[5:28]from this are going to be 100% virtual. I mean, most places it's just going to move the needle a
[5:33]little bit on how often it is acceptable to work from home. Most places will not stay five days a
[5:38]week remote for all of eternity once this is all over. So, in that sense, if you're going to be
[5:45]working from home two to three days a week and in the office two to three days for week you
[5:48]don't have a problem with this because you'll just be very social on the days that you work in
[5:51]the office and that will be perfectly fine. But in the meantime, there are a couple things you can do
[5:56]can certainly begin meetings with a little bit of social chit chat. People are going to do it
[6:00]anyway so it's good to put it on the agenda for all your meetings because then it's accounted for
[6:05]so it doesn't run over and it's also people are expecting it so you don't get that one guy who's
[6:10]always like, we don't have time for this and cutting it all off before people have actually said
[6:13]what they meant to say. So, that helps. You can pick up the phone and call people. I think in our
[6:20]world where we have, you know, smart phones in our pockets very few people use them as actual
[6:25]phones in the sense that you can call someone. Like, if you've been working with somebody for six
[6:31]years you don't actually have to schedule an appointment at a certain time, trading emails back
[6:36]and forth to be like, would it be acceptable to call you for 10 minutes at this moment?
[6:40]Like, you are allowed to pick up the phone and call and that is often the most efficient way
[6:44]and it's very good because then you hear their voice and talk and all that good stuff.
[6:48]I always find myself apologizing if I call. I have to be like, how dare I use my phone.
[6:54]I'm sorry for calling this person who gave me your number. I should have texted you first to see
[6:58]if it's okay. Yeah. And also, I feel like if I call certain friends, they'll think like something's
[7:04]wrong. Yeah. I'm like the school nurse. Like, it's okay. It's not an emergency. It's okay.
[7:09]It's okay for us. Well, that is true. Yeah. Although once you do it more regularly, people get
[7:15]used to it. And so definitely if you're managing people and you're working from home,
[7:19]you do need to call your employees frequently so that they don't think they're in trouble every
[7:23]time you call, right? That's a very important managerial tip here. But I actually say that,
[7:29]you know, one of the ways that working from home can be better for network building is
[7:34]is that when you work in an office 40 hours a week, a lot of your immediate need for social
[7:38]interaction and for professional networking feels satisfied by the people who you are working with
[7:43]closely. And you go to lunch with your colleagues, you go to coffee with your colleagues, you chat
[7:47]with your colleagues. And that's great, except that the people you work closest with are not the
[7:52]only people in the universe that you probably should be getting to know. And when you work from
[7:56]home, it's not so automatic that you would be going to lunch every day with your colleagues. So
[8:01]maybe you find somebody else to go to lunch with or somebody else to call, somebody else to have
[8:05]coffee with as that becomes more that people can do that as we come out of this. So, you know,
[8:11]then you can build a broader network when it's not just enforced by the social norms of your
[8:15]immediate office. And how do you work from home while your kids are around? Well, so this is this
[8:23]is complicated because, you know, before all this happened, one of the most frequent conversations
[8:30]I would have with people who are looking to work from home was the don't think you can save
[8:35]money on childcare conversation because some people would be like, wait, hey, you know, maybe I
[8:41]don't have to pay for it. It's like, no, no, no, you still do. You cannot long-term be the adult
[8:48]in charge of your young children during the hours you intend to work. And unfortunately, that
[8:56]reality has not changed just because we're in the midst of a pandemic that has thrown many people's
[9:03]childcare arrangements for a giant loop. So, what do you do? Well, the most obvious thing if you
[9:09]if your childcare arrangements are not available or the ones that are available are not acceptable
[9:14]to you, you can trade off with your partner. I have a schedule on my blog from a couple months
[9:20]ago that documents how each party can work either 29 or 31 hours a week of those 25 are pure
[9:27]focused hours. Four to six are sort of probable hours using a combination of nap time and movie time
[9:33]and spouses covering for each other. If you are going to do that, it has to be strictly delineated
[9:39]who is in charge. The party who is in charge not only has to keep the kids safe, you have to keep
[9:45]them out of the other person's home office, like that is the nature of the job. So, that's what
[9:51]you can do. If that's not going to work for your family, maybe there's another adult hit a similar
[9:57]situation that you could likewise swap with.
[10:00]if it's a neighbor or another family member
[10:01]that you're willing to sort of enter into the bubble
[10:04]together with.
[10:05]But I think it's challenging.
[10:08]And hopefully people will come to a place
[10:10]where if they need to, they can also
[10:11]find some sort of paid childcare that they
[10:13]feel they can trust for at least a few hours a week.
[10:15]Because the honest truth is, you will get more done
[10:18]in two hours of focused work while somebody else
[10:21]is dealing with the children than you
[10:23]will in four hours of going back and forth
[10:26]between work and dealing with your kids.
[10:29]Look how focused I am.
[10:30]And I have a babysitter in the next room.
[10:32]That's very good.
[10:33]I mean, that's what it's got to be, honestly.
[10:35]Otherwise, they're over my shoulders
[10:37]and popping in and whatever else, because although I
[10:39]feel sometimes I feel guilty, like I'm home.
[10:43]Why don't you babysitter?
[10:44]Do it, like you should get over that.
[10:47]No, I hear this from people.
[10:51]And I think it's just a change in mindset.
[10:52]Because when you're working from home,
[10:54]you're working, the operative part here is not at home.
[10:57]That just happens to be where you're doing it.
[10:58]Like you achieve the efficiencies of not
[11:00]commuting to an office, great.
[11:02]Go you, but that doesn't change the fact
[11:03]that you are working.
[11:05]And the work still has to get done.
[11:07]And so if you were not available for intense in-person childcare
[11:11]when you're working on an office, that does not magically
[11:13]change just because you have to be doing the same work
[11:16]at home.
[11:17]All right.
[11:18]OK.
[11:18]Well, I felt a little guilt-ed just a little.
[11:23]All right, and you see your family a lot.
[11:26]I mean, a lot of this is predicated on feeling guilty
[11:29]that you are maybe not seeing your family.
[11:32]But I always suggest people try tracking their time
[11:35]if they are feeling that way.
[11:36]Because there are 168 hours in a week.
[11:39]Even if you are working 40 hours a week,
[11:41]which is a full-time job, if you subtract 40 from 168,
[11:45]you'll notice that there are a lot of flowers still there.
[11:48]And even if you subtract your sleeping hours,
[11:49]you'll notice there are still a lot of hours still there.
[11:52]And you can subtract housework.
[11:54]You can subtract whatever else you want.
[11:56]There are still a lot of hours.
[11:58]And many people do spend the majority of those
[12:00]with the people they live with.
[12:02]So that tends to get rid of some of the guilt.
[12:04]I feel like my kids are experts at using the time
[12:06]that I have designated for sleep.
[12:08]They want to interact with you during that time.
[12:10]Yes, exactly.
[12:11]Wait, tell me more.
[12:12]Because we talked about this last time that I deleted.
[12:14]And I was in awe of your extensive time-tracking system
[12:18]and how long you've been doing it and how meticulous
[12:20]and detailed.
[12:21]And anyway, tell me more about it.
[12:24]Yeah, so while your listeners are going to know
[12:26]that I'm a bit of a time management freak,
[12:28]I have been tracking my time on weekly spreadsheets
[12:32]since April of 2015.
[12:35]And my spreadsheets have the days of the week
[12:37]across the top Monday through Sunday,
[12:38]half hour blocks down the left-hand side,
[12:41]5 a.m. to 4.30 a.m.
[12:43]So yeah, half hour blocks for five and a half years
[12:46]at this point, I'm not going to bore everybody
[12:49]with a recounting of the five and a half years.
[12:52]The truth is, it's not terribly exact.
[12:54]I tend to check in three to four times a day.
[12:57]So for instance, when I sat down at my desk this morning,
[12:59]I noted what I had done since about 6 p.m. last night.
[13:03]I will check in probably after this.
[13:05]So maybe, you know, 1.32 p.m. will be another check-in,
[13:09]another in the evening and that's it.
[13:11]And then it will be a bit tomorrow morning again
[13:13]when I check in.
[13:14]And each check-in is like 30 seconds to a minute.
[13:16]And I just write down really quickly what I've done.
[13:18]So it's not this big ordeal.
[13:21]It takes about the same amount of time as brushing my teeth,
[13:24]which I like to think that a lot of your listeners
[13:26]have also been brushing their teeth quite regularly.
[13:28]Like I said, April of 2015.
[13:30]No, I don't see.
[13:32]Yes.
[13:33]So it's along that lines.
[13:35]It's just more data that I'm getting from it.
[13:37]And what have you done with that data?
[13:39]Well, more in the beginning than I do now.
[13:42]In the beginning, I was quite into the analysis of it.
[13:46]I wound up writing an article for The New York Times in 2016
[13:50]on what I had learned from tracking my time for a year.
[13:53]And it was useful because I found some interesting stuff.
[13:57]I mean, in my speeches for years,
[13:59]I've had some last lines about people
[14:01]overestimating how many hours they work.
[14:04]You know, I joke about a guy I met at a party
[14:06]who told me he was working 180 hours a week,
[14:08]which is very impressive when you multiply 24 times seven.
[14:11]So everyone laughs about this, ha, ha, ha.
[14:13]And then it turns out when I tracked my time,
[14:15]I used to think I worked like 50 hours a week
[14:16]because I had checked my time here and there over the years.
[14:18]And then I realized in the past,
[14:20]I had chosen very specific weeks to track.
[14:22]Like those weeks where I worked 50 hours a week
[14:25]because that is what I wanted to see myself as doing.
[14:28]And when I track a whole year, of course, I can't do that.
[14:30]And it turns out the long term average is a lot closer to 40,
[14:34]which is a different number than 50, you know, turns out.
[14:38]And, you know, I saw that I was very consistent on sleep.
[14:41]I mean, I didn't get the same amount week to week,
[14:43]but over the long haul, I tended to get 7.4 hours per day.
[14:49]So if I track for two months,
[14:50]it would come out to 7.4, if I track for six months
[14:53]and track comes out to 7.4,
[14:54]a track for two years comes out to 7.4.
[14:57]So, you know, good to know, these days,
[14:59]it's more serving more of a diary function.
[15:02]I think I haven't really added up the major categories
[15:06]in quite a while.
[15:07]But I do love that I can look back over a previous week
[15:12]and any previous week from the past five and a half years
[15:15]and see what I was doing.
[15:16]And when I look at those notes,
[15:19]I tend to be able to reconstruct it in my brain.
[15:22]And so that week is not completely gone.
[15:25]It's like the memory is still there.
[15:27]And that has the effect of making time
[15:29]feel a lot more rich and full.
[15:31]So when you're tracking it,
[15:33]how much detail are you putting into,
[15:35]like if I were to say work today,
[15:38]would I then put in a ruler of Andrew Kim?
[15:40]You could if you wanted to.
[15:41]I mean, oftentimes I just put work.
[15:43]And that's the sort of basic email,
[15:45]you know, writing an article,
[15:47]unless it's something that I'm trying to track
[15:49]to see how much time I am devoting to.
[15:51]Sometimes I will put the names of people I'm speaking to,
[15:53]like if I'm interviewing or, you know,
[15:55]somebody's on my podcast or I'm on their podcast.
[15:58]Just partly to have the names, right?
[16:00]It's the memory, like I will remember it more.
[16:01]If I say, oh, top of Zippy versus podcast or just work.
[16:06]So sometimes I'll be a little bit more specific,
[16:09]but I mean, there's no rule.
[16:10]It's just for my benefit.
[16:11]So.
[16:12]No, I know, but if I were to try and maximize this,
[16:15]I would want to try to do this.
[16:16]I would want to like go all in on like,
[16:18]like I said a week tracking my time.
[16:21]I want to do it the right way, the right way.
[16:24]Well, then you might want to be more specific.
[16:26]And if you're only going for a week,
[16:27]it's a little bit easier to do that
[16:29]because you're not worried about the sustainability so much.
[16:32]So you're trying to make time stands still essentially.
[16:35]You're trying to like capture the most elusive thing
[16:39]on the planet, which cannot be captured.
[16:42]Like, what's this about deep down?
[16:45]Do you think we're going to cycle the idea?
[16:47]Yeah, I do.
[16:48]So no, I mean, time passes.
[16:51]And once a second is gone, all the money in the world
[16:53]cannot buy it back.
[16:55]And yet our interactions with time
[16:58]are very different depending on what we do with it.
[17:03]And so I have found that recording it makes these years
[17:07]that people say, you know, pass so quickly,
[17:10]feel a little bit more like this, you know, rich tapestry
[17:14]as opposed to a slick linoleum floor,
[17:17]which is just sliding away.
[17:19]And so I do have more memories of the past five and a half years
[17:24]than I would have had if I had not been recording it.
[17:28]Now, I'll still die anyway,
[17:30]but I do have this that I can look back on and recall.
[17:35]Do you take pictures?
[17:36]I do.
[17:37]I mean, like everyone, you know, I'm just a cell phone.
[17:40]Take like 10 a day of my toast.
[17:43]I mean, you know, it's kind of the curse of modern life, right?
[17:47]It's helpful too.
[17:48]Although there's to some degree, photos are of particular moments
[17:52]and then you can go long bits of time
[17:55]that are sort of not particularly memorable,
[17:58]but there are things you could remember of them.
[18:01]So I do both.
[18:03]And sometimes it's fun to look back at photos as well.
[18:06]And I think that's something we could definitely
[18:08]spend more time doing to recently.
[18:10]My older kids and I were looking back through the whole iCloud,
[18:14]you know, thing from the past four years.
[18:16]It was amazing to see just how different even they looked
[18:19]in the past four years, let alone their younger siblings,
[18:23]who, you know, a baby and then one who didn't exist.
[18:26]So seeing that changes is pretty profound
[18:28]to note the passage of time too.
[18:30]Now, if you can see some in my office in New York here,
[18:32]I'm going to just slide this, see that bottom shelf
[18:35]is all photo albums.
[18:37]Oh, my goodness.
[18:38]Each one has like, I don't know, a thousand.
[18:39]Good for you for doing that.
[18:41]And then this whole shelf is also all photos.
[18:43]Well, so many people don't print them up anymore.
[18:45]Oh, my, that's the issue.
[18:47]That was pre-digital photo.
[18:49]Okay.
[18:49]And then starting on that shoulder on digital albums.
[18:52]So I am like obsessive about monthly recounting in photos.
[18:57]So maybe I have the same complexes you in a different way.
[19:00]But that's probably has a good high level view of your time
[19:04]as well.
[19:05]I'm sure if you looked back through it,
[19:07]you would see plenty of things that showed daily life
[19:09]then if you're being that good about tracking it.
[19:11]Yeah, I'm trying, but I don't know.
[19:13]So how did you manage to get a book out this quickly?
[19:16]Well, you just write.
[19:17]I mean, I've written a lot of books.
[19:20]So it kind of flows pretty naturally.
[19:23]I've always been a swift writer.
[19:25]And a lot of the material I was covering with stuff
[19:28]I've been writing about for years.
[19:30]So I didn't have to entirely reinvent the wheel here.
[19:33]I just wrote down some of the tips I had learned
[19:35]and then I went and found people who had been working
[19:39]from home running their own companies
[19:40]or had been working as part of distributed teams
[19:42]for a great many years.
[19:44]They had tips so I could incorporate those as well.
[19:47]And, you know, it's a short book.
[19:49]It's a quick read.
[19:50]You probably could get through it
[19:51]in less than an hour and a half.
[19:53]So it's not more in peace.
[19:55]So we would have to track that, though.
[19:59]Now we're at your...
[20:00]reading the book is an arnid.
[20:01]You're like, all over my time tracking
[20:03]then this week.
[20:04]No, I'm kidding.
[20:04]Obviously, I read the Swellio, but.
[20:06]So, and you have lots of kids yourself.
[20:09]How are you, so you forget, did I make that up?
[20:11]Five kids, five kids, oh my gosh.
[20:13]And a baby is one of them, right?
[20:15]You just want, yes, one of them is a baby, yes.
[20:17]So it's like four and a half, four and a half.
[20:19]It's not okay, five kids.
[20:21]Five kids, and you're doing all this writing,
[20:23]and you're, I mean, you must, how do you do it?
[20:26]Like not to say, how do you balance it all
[20:28]because it's like an annoying question,
[20:30]but just like, are you just really strict about the,
[20:34]so it sounds like you're really strict about,
[20:36]this is what I'm working and this is what I'm not.
[20:38]But then even in the not working time,
[20:39]managing five different sets of needs is a lot.
[20:43]Yeah, I mean, it's challenging.
[20:45]And partly it's babies are challenging too,
[20:47]because this year I'm doing it with a lot less energy
[20:50]because I'm not sleeping as well
[20:51]as I would certainly hope to be sleeping.
[20:54]So that is what it is.
[20:56]Babies are tough, they're worth it, but they're tough.
[20:59]And I, you know, I try to get very clear each week
[21:03]on what needs to happen.
[21:04]I spend some time every Friday looking at the calendar
[21:06]for the upcoming week.
[21:07]I have, I try to record anything that is time specific
[21:11]or that's coming up, I put it on the calendar.
[21:12]So I know it's gonna happen.
[21:14]I spend some time on Friday looking at the upcoming weeks
[21:17]seeing what needs to happen to be on track
[21:21]for those things, looking at people's schedules,
[21:24]the kids, the different priorities they're gonna have
[21:26]I make myself a priority list for the next week
[21:28]with my top career things, my top relationship things,
[21:31]top personal things.
[21:32]The goal is to end every week with all of it crossed off,
[21:35]which means that I have to make it very limited.
[21:38]And so there is a strict winnowing that goes down
[21:41]through there and I look and say, okay,
[21:42]well, is it possible for all this to happen in the week?
[21:45]And if I'm trying to bite off more than I can chew,
[21:47]then I need to crunch it down a little bit more
[21:50]so that I can cross it all off.
[21:52]And it definitely has been more challenging
[21:54]in the past few months, partly because when the kids
[21:58]have all been home, there's just more potential
[22:01]for interruption.
[22:03]And so I don't have, I haven't had as much sort of
[22:07]open time and space to be a little bit more flexible
[22:10]of when things happen.
[22:11]So to record, I have to make sure everyone's quiet
[22:14]and accounted for and that's been challenging.
[22:17]But the good news is in child care right now,
[22:21]the five year old we put in a private school
[22:23]that was promising to meet in person and has been,
[22:26]then the older three started school virtually,
[22:28]but they've been past the first day,
[22:30]relatively self-sufficient.
[22:32]I did a lot of Zoom tech support the first few days,
[22:34]but after that, they kind of go and disappear.
[22:37]And I know roughly when they'll come up for their breaks,
[22:39]but I can work around that.
[22:41]So it's been the past like five weeks have been
[22:45]so much different than the five months before that.
[22:48]And I just feel sort of like,
[22:48]oh, yeah, do you have any advice for aspiring authors?
[22:53]I do, which is to write a lot.
[22:56]We just can't be too precious about writing.
[23:00]I find that anyone who has a lot of good stuff coming out
[23:06]also just has a lot of stuff coming out.
[23:08]And they discover cool ideas by trying different things
[23:12]and then seeing what resonates
[23:13]and then writing more about that.
[23:15]Or by forcing themselves to come up with hundreds of ideas
[23:19]of say blog posts per year,
[23:21]out of those hundred, maybe one or two might be a good idea
[23:24]for a book, for instance.
[23:26]But if you were only trying to come up with one or two ideas
[23:29]a year, the odds that those would be really good or minimal.
[23:32]So do a lot of it as much as you possibly can
[23:37]and your quality and your ideas
[23:40]and all that will become better
[23:42]through the sheer quantity of output.
[23:45]Love it, a perfectly quantitative answer.
[23:49]I would expect that less.
[23:51]You like you did really well in the math part of the SATs.
[23:54]Oh, my goodness.
[23:55]And then I'll show you when you're a writer too.
[23:57]So, okay.
[23:58]Anyway, thank you so much.
[24:00]Thanks for coming back on mom's anniversary.
[24:02]Thanks, you're my only double.
[24:04]I'm so frustrated.
[24:06]I'm so frustrated.
[24:07]And I learned you things this time.
[24:08]So it's great.
[24:09]Good, good.
[24:11]All right, well, take care.
[24:12]Thank you so much.
[24:13]Thanks for having me.
[24:14]My pleasure.
[24:14]Bye.
[24:16]Thanks again to Farrity for being a sponsor today.
[24:19]Go to Farritybrand.com slash Zippy
[24:23]and get 25% off.
[24:25]Enter code Zippy for 25% off.
[24:27]These amazing comfy winter clothes and summer,
[24:31]but for now winter and we will thank you.
[24:33]Thanks for listening to this episode
[24:35]of moms don't have time to read books.
[24:37]Don't forget to follow me on Instagram at Zippy Owens
[24:40]and at moms don't have time to read books.
[24:42]Also sign up for my newsletter at zippyowens.com
[24:44]And sign up for my virtual book club
[24:46]and meet lots of authors on Zoom every other week.
[24:49]Thanks so much to Steve and Ryan
[24:50]at Textures Sound for the Sound Editing.
[24:53]And thank you to Morning Moon Productions
[24:54]for providing this fantastic intro and out trim music.