Julie Buxbaum, ADMISSION
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[2:15]Julie Buksbaum is the New York Times best-selling author of Tell Me Three Things,
[2:20]her young adult debut, what to say next, hope, and other punchlines, and now admission.
[2:25]She's the author of two critically acclaimed novels for adults, the opposite of love and after you.
[2:30]Her work has been translated into 25 languages.
[2:33]Julie's writing has appeared in various publications, including The New York Times.
[2:37]She's a former lawyer and graduate of Harvard Law School and lives in Los Angeles with her
[2:41]husband, two children, and more books than his reasonable.
[2:45]I actually interviewed Julie like months ago and then her pub date was pushed due to the pandemic.
[2:51]So this might sound a little outdated perhaps or maybe just like a funny trip down memory lane.
[2:56]But all the themes of her amazing novel are still completely relevant as it refers to,
[3:02]fictionalized version perhaps of the college admission scandal which had rocked Los Angeles
[3:08]and the whole country.
[3:09]So listen in, congrats to Julie for finally getting your book out into the world.
[3:13]And I hope you all enjoy our conversation, which was so much fun.
[3:17]Welcome, Julie. Thanks for coming on Monster and have time to read books.
[3:20]Thank you so much for having me. I'm so excited to do this.
[3:23]Me too.
[3:24]Finally, I feel like we met, oh, it's so long ago now, it was like, what, months and months.
[3:28]So it's, I'm delighted we're doing this.
[3:31]Thank you.
[3:32]As I just was telling you, you're a really great writer and it was it really a pleasure to read
[3:37]this book. And so topical. Can you please tell listeners what admission is about?
[3:41]Sure. Admission is about this girl, Chloe Windburnger, who at first glance,
[3:46]seems to have everything. She just got asked to the prom by the boy. She's had a crush on
[3:51]since middle school. Her mom, who's a B-list celebrities on her way to the B-plus list.
[3:55]And she just got into the college of her dreams. So, you know, she is living the life
[3:59]until one day her doorbell rings at 6 a.m. in the morning.
[4:03]And the FBI shows up to a rest her mother in a nationwide college admission scandal.
[4:08]And from there, her entire life falls apart. And it basically asked the question,
[4:13]first of all, what did Chloe know and when did she know it?
[4:15]Well, her mother go to jail, was she go to jail. And I think more importantly,
[4:19]it fundamentally asks, what does it mean to be complicit?
[4:22]And what does it mean to when I achieve like, what does the success really mean?
[4:27]Like, what does achievement mean to her mom? What does it mean to her? I don't know. Just adding
[4:31]my two cents. Yep. And at what cost? At what cost exactly. So, you had this interesting note
[4:37]at the beginning about how you were mid work on another novel and then this whole scandal broke
[4:42]and you felt you were cheating on the characters you had been writing on by wanting to write
[4:46]this book. So, tell me what that process was like, what happened? So, when the story broke,
[4:51]I started reading the articles just like everybody else, except I wasn't like everybody else.
[4:55]I became unhealthily obsessed. It's all I could think about. I used to be a lawyer and so I ended
[5:01]up reading the 200 page complaint. And I got suddenly really wrapped up in what wasn't being
[5:06]covered by the media. I felt like the media definitely focused on the adults for good reason
[5:10]because they were the ones who were arrested. But I kept thinking about what it must be like to wake
[5:15]up one morning and have your entire reality change fundamentally. And what it must be like to be
[5:20]the teenagers at the center of this huge media fallout. And then I started thinking about this
[5:26]character Chloe and I fully understood who she was from day one. And so, and slowly that story
[5:32]sort of started to unfold in my mind, I knew exactly what was going to happen. I took a few days
[5:36]to just figure out if there was a full novel there before I sent that email to my agent editor
[5:42]being like, hey, can I drop the book I'm writing and write this whole other thing? And is that
[5:46]but I just knew like I just, every once in a while as a writer you sort of can see the whole thing
[5:51]and it doesn't happen often and it's super lucky when it does. And in this case I could just
[5:56]I could just see it. And so I did. I thought about it for a few days and then I called my agent
[6:02]editor and I was like, please don't kill me. But can I write this whole other book and put aside
[6:07]the 150 pages I've already written? And they were kind of, they were totally gay. They were like,
[6:12]just as long as you write fast. And what happened to those characters that you cheated on?
[6:18]Like, what happened to that book? So I have, I have reconciled with them.
[6:24]And we've been hiding out lately and I'm working on that book now.
[6:27]Well, see, so it all worked out. It's funny, I kind of feel like they're still a little
[6:33]mad at me. Like, they're a little bit slower to show themselves and it hasn't been as natural a
[6:37]process as admission was. And it's partially I think because I left them. And they're sort of like,
[6:43]I'm a little pissed off, Julie. I'm not going to reveal myself as easily this time.
[6:47]Well, there is no lack of you bringing your characters to life. They are clearly you are in
[6:51]conversation with them. And that's, I guess that's what it takes. I mean, to make them seem
[6:56]surreal in a book, you have to actually believe that they're real. I mean, they do feel very real
[7:02]to me. I realize that sounds a little bananas. But they do seem to have, there's some, I think
[7:08]often in the, the novel writing process, there seems to be some outer force that you can't control
[7:13]and you just have to sort of let yourself be open to it. And sometimes it's easier and sometimes
[7:18]it's harder, which is probably one of the most frustrating things about what I do.
[7:22]I mean, I have to say, like, I feel like some characters in fiction are so real that I still
[7:28]think about them the way I would an old friend. So as the writer, you must have to have that
[7:34]to the end degree to be able to convey that to the reader. I mean, this is obvious, but just you know.
[7:40]Yeah, you know, one weird thing about that, though, is they feel so real to me when I'm writing the
[7:45]book. But once the book is out in the world, I actually completely let them go and stop thinking
[7:50]about them. They sort of now no longer belong to me and now sort of belong to the reader,
[7:55]which is something I didn't expect. And often I'll like revisit a book I previously written for some
[8:00]reason, maybe an interview or something. And I'll be like, oh my god, I have no memory of having
[8:05]written any of this. It's just happened in a whole other state. It's really bizarre.
[8:10]That's sort of how I feel about like one of my like the kids' whole childhoods, like the beginning
[8:15]years. I'm like, I know I was there. I see the pictures, but I don't know. I don't know what
[8:19]your first words. I don't remember. No processing whatsoever. You're just getting through.
[8:24]Yeah, just getting through. I think it's like childbirth, I think, making books and childbirth
[8:28]are ridiculously similar. One's a little uglier. I feel like though the way you're saying about sending
[8:33]your kids into the world, like you're almost like a surrogate. You're acting as a surrogate for the
[8:38]child versus the mother in a way. Do you know, like anyway? Yeah, because then you just say goodbye.
[8:45]Yeah, you had it off. Exactly. Yeah. I think surrogacy is actually a really great example.
[8:51]Well, now that we nailed that. Like you, by the way, I was totally riveted and obsessed with
[8:57]the admission scandal, probably not quite as deep dive into the whole thing as you took. But
[9:03]it was hard not to wonder and think about, oh my gosh, these poor kids, like if they didn't know
[9:09]or did they know. But if they didn't know, like how that would feel and to feel like that their
[9:14]parents had so little faith in them in a way that they would be willing to do all of this behind
[9:19]their backs. Like what does that say about their confidence? How are these kids going to process?
[9:23]So when you were doing all this research, did you end up talking to any of the actual people
[9:29]this happened to or any celebrity children or people who have had some scandal like this happen
[9:34]to them or was it more your imagination? No, I intentionally didn't because I wanted to make sure
[9:39]I told my character story and that's just a fictional story. I wasn't trying to tell the actual
[9:44]college admissions story. I think there are probably those people who will probably write their
[9:47]own books one day and I didn't want to steal their stories. I was more interested in sort of
[9:51]this particular character who was wrestling with what she knew and what she didn't know. I found
[9:57]I had real empathy for her.
[10:00]But I didn't always like her.
[10:01]And I thought that was important as the author,
[10:02]not to sort of be 100% on board with everything she did
[10:06]because she made a million mistakes throughout the book.
[10:09]I think what was more interesting to me
[10:10]was the thematic concept of willful ignorance
[10:13]and sort of doing a deep dive into when we know things,
[10:17]but don't really know them
[10:18]and don't worry know things,
[10:19]but we don't want to know them
[10:20]and what that kind of feels like in our bodies and our minds.
[10:23]I did do some research on shame and vulnerability though.
[10:26]Not that you had to, I was just wondering.
[10:29]Yeah.
[10:30]Yeah. So when Chloe tells her mom when she overhears her mom,
[10:33]trying to basically sell her diagnosis of ADHD,
[10:36]which she doesn't even have,
[10:37]so that she can take her SATs on time.
[10:40]She was like, well, time is in the problem
[10:41]of not being able to figure out the answers, right?
[10:44]Tell me about this, how she first started to get some glimmers
[10:48]and just how that came to be.
[10:50]Well, I think what's so interesting about the college
[10:52]admissions scandal is that it's so much bigger
[10:54]than the college admissions scandal.
[10:56]It just sort of highlights all these bigger issues
[10:59]that are going on in society.
[11:00]So the people who are wrestling the college admissions scandal
[11:02]are not the first people to get their kids a diagnosis
[11:05]to get them better times on a test.
[11:08]This has been going on for years and years and years
[11:10]where people literally pay a doctor
[11:13]to give their kids a diagnosis
[11:14]so they get more time on a test not only in high school,
[11:17]but for when they go to college,
[11:18]so they can do better there too.
[11:20]And it's just one of the many ways
[11:22]in which people who have a lot of money
[11:24]can buy their way into better outcomes for their children.
[11:27]And it's this interesting space where kids
[11:31]who are at the center of it may or may not know
[11:33]whether a diagnosis actually fits, right?
[11:35]They're not an expert and an adult is telling them
[11:38]that it fits.
[11:39]And it sort of goes along, I think,
[11:41]with this whole thematic question
[11:43]of overtrusting experts in a sense,
[11:45]like buying your way into more information
[11:48]as opposed to trusting your instincts.
[11:50]Interesting. Do you feel like your book
[11:52]is trying to give some sort of lesson
[11:54]or take a point of view on it?
[11:56]Or do you trying to do that?
[11:57]Or were you just sort of trying to paint the picture
[11:59]and let the reader decide?
[12:00]Yeah, I don't like to moralize.
[12:04]Instead, I like to have characters wrestle with questions.
[12:07]And I think a lot of these questions
[12:08]don't actually have answers, right?
[12:10]Or definitive answers at least.
[12:12]And so instead of taking this higher moral ground,
[12:16]instead, I just want to examine these questions
[12:18]that have come up for these particular people
[12:20]and also come up in my everyday life, too, as a parent.
[12:23]It's so true.
[12:23]It's always like, how do you make sure your kid
[12:25]has the opportunities for success,
[12:28]but within reason?
[12:29]I mean, they are who they are, right?
[12:32]That's why I feel like one of the saddest parts is like,
[12:35]you know, maybe Chloe, she shouldn't be at that particular school.
[12:38]Maybe that's not the right,
[12:40]it's not gonna be the right college for her.
[12:42]Like, maybe she should be really happy
[12:43]to different college.
[12:44]That would be a much better fit and not just Chloe,
[12:47]but so many people who, you know,
[12:49]I mean, I personally have moved my kid's school
[12:51]so many times, because I really believe, like,
[12:54]they need the right school for them.
[12:56]And it might have a great name in all,
[12:59]but if it's not the right fit,
[13:00]it is not gonna do anyone any favors in the long run.
[13:02]So, but I think that even when I pulled my kid out
[13:05]of one school, people are like, oh, you're so brave.
[13:07]And I'm like, I'm not brave.
[13:08]I'm like, this is my child,
[13:10]and I'm trying to maintain their sanity.
[13:12]And you know what I mean?
[13:13]So.
[13:14]I think that's exactly right, but I think it's really difficult
[13:16]to figure out actually what the right thing is
[13:19]for your kid when you're living in this larger community
[13:21]of people who are telling you something different
[13:23]than what you believe, right?
[13:24]Like, if my neighbor's kid is having her daughter take Mandarin
[13:28]in fourth grade, should my daughter be taking Mandarin?
[13:31]No, my daughter should not be taking Mandarin.
[13:33]She's not interested in Mandarin,
[13:34]but there's always this moment of,
[13:36]well, if my larger community is doing something
[13:38]and all these other kids are getting this advantage,
[13:41]am I hurting my child by taking this sort of different stand?
[13:44]I think it's really complicated.
[13:45]It's really a shame because I feel like
[13:48]in mothering or parenting or fathering or whatever.
[13:52]I don't know these questions come up.
[13:53]Like, it's almost like you're being taught
[13:55]to not trust your instincts at all.
[13:57]And in the most intimate relationship
[14:00]in your entire life,
[14:01]where you know the person better than anything,
[14:02]it really actually makes sense.
[14:04]And you think about it, but I'm just like you like,
[14:06]oh, you know, everybody signed up for this class.
[14:08]Like, well, I don't know.
[14:09]No, do I care if my daughter can needle point
[14:12]or whatever it is that like everybody seems to be doing?
[14:15]When I know it's not right, I don't know.
[14:17]Yeah, I totally agree with you.
[14:18]And I think there's also this weird culture
[14:20]of putting your kid first above the community.
[14:24]And that's also really uncomfortable.
[14:26]And I haven't quite figured out how you make that all work.
[14:30]I'm trying to think of a really basic example,
[14:32]but there was this piece in New York magazine,
[14:34]maybe five, 10 years ago.
[14:36]And I remember reading it and it stuck with me.
[14:38]And the quote poses question about ethical parenting.
[14:41]And one of the questions they said is,
[14:42]say your kid has this really important standardized test tomorrow.
[14:46]But just before your kid goes to bed,
[14:47]you notice they have lice.
[14:49]Do you keep them up late, combing out the lice?
[14:52]Or do you pretend like you haven't seen the lice
[14:54]and you send your kid to school to take the standardized test?
[14:57]So they won't be tired and they'll be best prepared.
[15:00]But your kid probably knows you know they have lice.
[15:02]And so what lesson are you teaching your kid
[15:04]by sending them with lice?
[15:05]What lesson are you teaching your kid
[15:06]by keeping them home up too late for the SAT
[15:09]or whatever test it is?
[15:10]And I think there are a million micro examples
[15:13]of this in parenting where you have to sort of balance,
[15:16]where I think a lot of people tend to put their kid
[15:18]above the community when we should put
[15:19]in the community above our kids.
[15:21]And talking to you now in the midst of the coronavirus
[15:24]and we're all stuck at home.
[15:24]This is like so timely, right?
[15:26]I mean, to you, we're all hoarding toilet paper
[15:29]because we wanna make sure that we have enough
[15:31]at the expense of our neighbors.
[15:32]And I know I've spent many hours talking to my friends
[15:36]about what is hoarding here.
[15:37]If I can get that extra box of wipes, should I?
[15:39]Or should I save it for someone else?
[15:41]And it's impossible to know any of these answers.
[15:43]But I feel like the first step at least
[15:45]is to notice our privilege and to grapple with it.
[15:48]The grocery store where I am ended up limiting people
[15:51]to two items.
[15:52]Like you could only take two of the same types of items
[15:54]and they were policing it at the end
[15:56]because there was no internal checks and balances.
[15:58]Like, I don't know.
[15:59]It's obviously hard for everybody to know.
[16:02]And then also to remember that like you know
[16:04]we're talking about toilet paper in the coronavirus.
[16:07]And five seconds ago I was talking about Mandarin
[16:09]lessons, right?
[16:10]And like Mandarin lessons do not matter.
[16:13]But as parents we sort of forget our privilege bubbles
[16:16]and for a second it does seem like it matters
[16:18]but it doesn't matter.
[16:19]No, it doesn't matter.
[16:20]And none of it matters really.
[16:22]I mean, now that we're home, it's like
[16:25]all those extra curriculars, we don't need them.
[16:28]Like I don't know about you like my kids are in school
[16:30]and then they had stuff after school.
[16:32]Especially my little guy who's still in preschool.
[16:34]And now all the after school places are getting in touch
[16:37]to be like we've developed like a Zoom thing
[16:39]for after school.
[16:40]And I'm like no way if I could get them through
[16:42]a couple hours of school are you kidding me?
[16:44]Like forget it.
[16:45]And he'll just play.
[16:46]But during the year at school you don't say that
[16:48]you don't have that same attitude.
[16:50]And I think there's something really important
[16:52]about teaching our kids first of all how to be bored,
[16:55]how to be resilient.
[16:57]And these are the exact opposite of the things
[16:59]that are taught by over scheduling them
[17:01]and making sure they're taking Mandarin and everything.
[17:03]I don't know why I keep bringing up Mandarin as the example
[17:05]but I think you get my point.
[17:07]Yeah, I get your part.
[17:08]I think I'm going so way off topic.
[17:10]I know, but you know what?
[17:12]I find this really interesting.
[17:13]I don't know.
[17:14]This is what it's all about.
[17:15]Like I mean everybody out there who has a child
[17:19]or who has friends with children or whatever.
[17:21]This is the culture.
[17:22]This is the pressure.
[17:23]And your book is just like a total perfect example.
[17:27]It's like the cherry on top of the whole thing
[17:29]or that's the wrong analogy.
[17:31]But you know, it's when everything comes to,
[17:33]this is like the, I can't even try in the words.
[17:35]Like the extreme example of the whole phenomenon.
[17:38]So it's I think it's topical.
[17:41]And I think the reason why it struck such a chord
[17:43]with so many people, the scandal itself,
[17:45]is I think it works its way down
[17:47]through all segments of society.
[17:48]It's not just the very top.
[17:50]I think middle-class parents are also struggling
[17:53]to keep their kids doing all these things
[17:55]that comparative parenting has sort of taken over
[17:58]as the model and sort of the dream kind of not dream
[18:01]the sort of, the parenting you're supposed to be doing.
[18:04]When in fact it's making all of a struggle.
[18:06]Yeah.
[18:07]And like when does it end?
[18:08]Like when is it okay?
[18:09]Like is it okay to have an SAT tutor?
[18:11]Like you know, they try to say, you know,
[18:13]all these things that we take for granted
[18:14]we'd not should nobody go out and buy those SAT books.
[18:17]Like how far back do we have to go?
[18:20]I mean that's one of the questions
[18:20]I wanted to ask with the book.
[18:22]I don't know.
[18:22]Yeah.
[18:23]But my character starts the question all of those things
[18:26]because this is someone with great privilege
[18:28]who hasn't actually taken the time
[18:29]to sort of examine her own privilege.
[18:31]And one of the great joys of the book
[18:33]was forcing her to do that.
[18:35]I love how in the beginning her mother,
[18:36]and I love how you say going from a B to a B plus actress.
[18:39]How does one even know that they're crossing
[18:41]that threshold?
[18:42]That's my question.
[18:43]But in the beginning she has this whole photoshoot
[18:45]for I think we declare where she's baking pancakes
[18:48]and she's dressed in all like court,
[18:49]color, coordinating clothes and her friend comes over
[18:52]and is like, what, you know, basically what's up
[18:53]with your mother?
[18:54]You know, and she's like, oh no, photoshoot.
[18:56]She would never, you know, carbs
[18:57]and she would never be doing this on a SATTER
[18:59]or whatever you're wearing and that's not the type of mom
[19:00]she is.
[19:01]So, you know, it also raises into question
[19:03]just like the very crux of the mother, child,
[19:06]or parent-child relationship and that trust.
[19:10]I mean, I know I mentioned this before,
[19:11]but I don't know.
[19:12]Like what does it say if your mother is saying
[19:16]that she doesn't believe in you really?
[19:18]What does that mean?
[19:20]I don't know.
[19:21]Exactly.
[19:22]I mean, one thing that was really important to you
[19:23]when writing the book is, yes, the mom is the villain
[19:25]of the story sheet.
[19:27]At no point does anyone question her guilt,
[19:29]except for maybe the mom herself,
[19:31]but everyone else knows she is guilty.
[19:33]That is at no point part of the story.
[19:36]But she is also an incredibly loving mother
[19:39]and cares deeply about her child.
[19:42]Obviously, she goes about it completely the wrong way,
[19:45]but at no point do we doubt whether she loves Chloe
[19:48]and wants what's best for her.
[19:50]She just sort of got confused, I guess.
[19:52]I mean, that's probably the kindest move.
[19:54]But messed up in her own way of trying to do it was best.
[20:00]for her daughter. Also, what was best for her? I mean, there's a whole
[20:02]reputational angle to all of this as well. But it does, it poses the question
[20:08]about whether this kind of parenting, this sort of hyper snowplow, clearing
[20:13]all obstacles for your kids, so your kid can climb as high as they can possibly
[20:17]climb is actually what's best for children, right? Like it teaches them that
[20:22]we don't think they're capable, whether they see it or not, they eventually
[20:26]learn that lesson that they couldn't do it on their own. And I think it's
[20:28]really dangerous. I agree. And that's what we see Chloe sort of coming to
[20:32]terms with. Well, you did a good job. And obviously, I mean, this book is, I feel
[20:36]like this is such a good book club type. You know, people are gonna sit around
[20:39]and be like, what do you think or what would you do in that situation? Or it's such
[20:43]a conversation starter because it's a topic that's on all of our minds. So it's
[20:47]really, it's great. Well, if anyone out there is doing any Zoom book clubs, I am
[20:52]free because I'm not leaving my house. I just started a Zoom book club actually. I
[20:57]saw. Yeah. Yeah. I just did that. Maybe we can make that work. Let's see. What
[21:03]else? So one thing that I also thought really propelled the story along was how
[21:07]you did alternating chapters between now and then until it basically all came
[21:11]together. That was so cool. How did you come up with that? Was that part of
[21:14]your initial vision when you saw the whole thing? It was a yes, exactly. I knew
[21:19]that from the very beginning. I had never done it before and now type thing. But
[21:23]with this particular story, I felt like it needed it for narrative suspense
[21:29]because the then of her sort of, so let me just explain sort of what it was. It is
[21:33]in the book. The book starts with the FBI coming and arresting Chloe's mom and
[21:39]then it flips back to the fall of her senior year when she's applying to
[21:43]colleges. And then each chapter goes back and forth between then and now. And I
[21:47]felt like the narrative suspense of the then needed us to already know what
[21:52]happened in the now. So each action we're watching from this sort of way
[21:57]higher narrative level of knowing what's really happening while Chloe doesn't
[22:02]actually or we I felt like the narrative suspense wasn't did they cheat. The
[22:07]narrative suspense is close of awareness of how much they cheated and when
[22:11]yeah, which is super interesting. Yeah, I think I felt like it unfolds in a
[22:15]different way because of that. Yeah. And it made it really page turning plus
[22:19]the short chapters. I don't know. I just it was like it wasn't a thriller at
[22:23]all, but it had that same kind of intensity like pacing as it as one of those
[22:28]types of books. I thought, but thank you. I really wanted to be
[22:32]propulsive. I wanted you not to want to put it down. I was going to say
[22:35]propulsive, but I feel like I've been using that word so often. It's like a
[22:40]gross word, right? I mean, at first I was like, who propulsive and then I
[22:44]like overused it and now I've put propulsive back in the drawer for now. But
[22:48]yes, I feel like it's kind of like moist. Like it just kind of has just a
[22:53]slightly half and yeah, like, yeah, first. So tell me. So you're now you're in
[23:00]terms of what's next. You're working on your new your new slash old novel and
[23:03]resurrecting it. And that's is that your full time like are you able to work on
[23:07]it now while you're in isolation or. I mean, not really. I'm trying. I'm
[23:12]trying very hard. We have not. I'll be honest. I have not figured out my quarantine
[23:16]rhythm. Having two kids home, homeschooling, you know, keeping my house in
[23:21]order, cooking three meals a day plus snacks. So many snacks. I don't I don't
[23:26]understand all the snacks. And my kids want dinner every night. Like every night
[23:31]they want to eat theoretically. I am writing, but I have not actually had the
[23:35]focus required to write the way I need to write right now. I'm actually
[23:39]having been reading as much as I want to be. I just I find my brain is sort of
[23:43]so scattered. Yeah, but I'm trying. I'm hoping next week, I'll I'll figure it
[23:47]out. I've been hearing that a lot. You're not alone in that. I need to
[23:50]quit or I think that'll change things for me. I do not let myself look at
[23:55]the news until like the evening. Otherwise I can't get anything done during
[23:58]the day. That's my newest thing. Like the world could burn down. Like if
[24:01]something major happens, my husband will tell me, but I don't look. I just
[24:05]don't look. That's right. All right. What advice do you have to aspiring
[24:08]authors? My number one piece of advice to aspiring authors is to read and
[24:13]to read everything, but not to read as a reader, but to read as a writer. So
[24:18]when you're reading a book and it particularly works for you and it's flowing
[24:21]and it and it's magic, stop the magic, rewind and figure out why it's magical.
[24:27]Why does this character matter to you? Why is this plot interesting on a
[24:31]sentence level? Why is the pros singing for you? If you're reading a book and it
[24:34]kind of isn't capturing you to exactly the same thing. Ask the questions. Why
[24:39]isn't working? What is this author doing? What is this author doing? Right. What
[24:42]is this author doing wrong? And so every book is a master class in novel writing.
[24:46]And then sit your ass down and write. That's the other important tip. And you
[24:53]got to write. I love that. Well, thank you, Julie. Thanks for coming in.
[24:57]Rose, no time to read books. Thanks for the book and this really interesting
[25:01]discussion. Thanks so much for having me. I probably should have talked more
[25:04]about the book. I'm sorry. I don't know if this is all related to the book.
[25:08]You know, it's not like we were talking about like, I don't know, learning
[25:11]bridge or something. I don't know. Anyway, I have a source toilet paper. Exactly.
[25:16]Exactly. All right. All right. Hang in. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.
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