Suzanne Nossel, DARE TO SPEAK
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[2:33]Suzanne Nussle is the chief executive officer of Penn America, the Freedom to Write,
[2:39]which is an organization you all should definitely know about if you don't already.
[2:42]It's a leading human rights and free expression organization.
[2:45]And she's also the author of Dare to Speak, Defending Free Speech for All,
[2:49]which is the book we'll talk about today.
[2:51]Since joining in 2013 at Penn, she doubled the organization's staff, budget and membership,
[2:56]spearheaded unification with Penn Center, USA and LA, and the establishment of the DC office,
[3:01]and has done groundbreaking work on free expression in everywhere from Hong Kong, China, Eurasia,
[3:06]and the US.
[3:07]She's a leading voice on free expression in the US and globally and has served as the chief operating
[3:12]officer of Human Rights Watch and as executive director of Amnesty International USA.
[3:17]During the first term of the Obama administration, Nussle served as Deputy Assistant Secretary
[3:23]of State for International Organizations, where she led US engagement in the United Nations and
[3:27]multilateral institutions on human rights and humanitarian issues.
[3:31]Back in the Clinton administration, Nussle was deputy to the US ambassador for UN Management
[3:37]and Reform at the US mission to the UN, where she was the lead negotiator in settling US
[3:42]to the world body.
[3:43]She has also served as VP of Business Development for Birdlesman and VP of Strategy and Operations
[3:47]for the Wall Street Journal.
[3:49]She is a former senior fellow at the Century Foundation, the Center for American Progress,
[3:53]and the Council of Foreign Relations, and has published op-eds in the New York Times,
[3:57]Washington Post, LA Times, and many others.
[4:00]She is a Magna Cum Laude graduate of both Harvard College and Harvard Law School.
[4:04]Welcome, Suzanne.
[4:05]Thanks so much for coming, and moms don't have time to read books.
[4:08]Thanks for having me, it's great to be here.
[4:10]So let's discuss your book, Dare to Speak, Defending Free Speech for All.
[4:15]Amazing that you wrote this.
[4:17]There is so much information in here, it must take you a really long time to write and
[4:21]research and get it all perfect without bullet points.
[4:24]And I don't know, it was just like, I feel like it's almost like a textbook sounds
[4:28]for Jordan in some way, but it's like the resource on free speech.
[4:32]Like that's what it is.
[4:33]Like everyone, every lawyer should have it, everybody should have it on there.
[4:37]And there's shelf in terms of like, any questions related to this whole topic
[4:41]that wasn't really a question.
[4:42]Just a rave.
[4:44]Well, thank you so much.
[4:45]Yeah, it's like, well, yeah, moms don't have time to write books.
[4:48]So we're like, it was a bit of a high-wire act.
[4:52]Well, tell me about it.
[4:53]Tell me when did you decide, you're also a CEO of Pan-America.
[4:58]When did you decide to write this book?
[5:00]And how did you decide what form it should take and all of them?
[5:04]And then how did you get it done?
[5:05]Yeah, well, you know, the ideas I would say were germinating for some time.
[5:11]You know, in the daily work of Pan-America, we confront so many free speech controversies.
[5:17]And we've begun doing work on free speech on college campuses several years ago.
[5:21]And, you know, whether it was professors being disciplined for something that they said in class
[5:27]or controversies over messages chalked on lockways, on campuses, demands for trigger warnings,
[5:35]arguments that the campus should become a safe space.
[5:37]All that kind of really came to the program.
[5:39]What I saw was a real sort of generational and cultural divide
[5:44]and how people thought about these issues.
[5:46]A lot of bolder people really pretty horrified that young people seem so unfamiliar with
[5:52]and even alienated from the concept of free speech and ready to ask to be protected
[5:57]from uncomfortable ideas by their institutions.
[6:00]Even if that meant letting the institution, the university administration,
[6:04]have more power over them, you know, young people ready to do that and older people saying,
[6:09]you know, have you lost your mind?
[6:10]This is freedom of speech and, you know, you ought to be more resilient.
[6:14]And if you hear ideas you don't like, you know, you just push back and the answer to
[6:20]offensive speeches, more speech.
[6:22]And I felt like the two sides were really sort of talking past each other.
[6:25]And so that was something that has guided our work on campus free speech where we really
[6:30]make the argument and time again through trainings and workshops and engagements on individual
[6:35]campuses that the drive for a more equal, inclusive, and just society,
[6:41]which is what a lot of young people are striving for and working towards,
[6:45]is compatible with robust protections for free speech.
[6:48]And if that free speech can be an enabler of the social justice causes.
[6:52]So that basic idea, which kind of undergirds the book was something that I came to feel very
[6:58]passionate about and feel like it needed to make its way out more widely into the world.
[7:03]And so I really conceived the book in the beginning part of 2019.
[7:08]And it was an editor, honestly, I had sort of a morass of ideas.
[7:13]And she, what I met with her said, well, why don't you make a into a set of principles?
[7:18]And sort of the moment she said that I suddenly something like, I felt like, okay,
[7:23]I could imagine doing that. I could sort of see how that seems like a manageable task,
[7:28]whereas wrestling to the ground, all these complex issues without a clear structure
[7:34]felt a bit overwhelming. And so that's how I started.
[7:38]Wow. And then what happened? How did you end up? How long did it take to write it?
[7:43]And how did you structure it and fit it into the rest of your life?
[7:47]It was hard. I, you know, one really important thing was I hired two really smart research
[7:53]assistants. And it was a process to find them. And I had to test out a lot of people.
[7:58]And I knew sort of what I wanted the 20 chapters to be. And I had ideas for each one,
[8:06]but I needed them to pull examples of different kinds of phenomena and to look through the
[8:12]the secondary literature. And so I sort of put them to work and they helped by creating memos.
[8:17]And then I took five weeks off last summer because I, my job is really busy and demanding.
[8:24]And there's a lot of evening work and weekend work. And so I knew I needed a concentrated block of
[8:30]time. My kids were at camp, which also really helped. So I, you know, was pretty free and
[8:37]and I just went to, I worked in the performing arts library on the Upper West Side. I would just
[8:42]force myself to be there when it opened. And I basically had to like rough out a chapter each day.
[8:49]And it was really pretty grueling. But by the end of that five weeks, I kind of had a skeleton
[8:56]of the whole thing. And then it was months of revisions and back and forth and engaging with different
[9:02]experts. But I wanted to review different parts of the manuscript. But kind of the psychological
[9:07]hurdle of climbing the mountain was really last summer. Well, tell me also a little more about
[9:14]your amazing background because you were, you worked with in the White House for the UN,
[9:20]like you have done everything. Harvard, two harvards, right? We went to undergrad and law school.
[9:27]Like this is an amazing career trajectory that you've had. And now it's ended, not ended. Now
[9:34]we're at the stepping stone of your career where there's a bug and you're leading this great company
[9:38]helping, you know, enhance speech and thought and feeling throughout the world, really.
[9:45]So tell me a little about like when you were a kid, like, did you think this is what you wanted
[9:50]to do? Like when did you know this is sort of the path you wanted to be on? And how did you
[9:55]start out? And how did you end up here? Yeah. I mean, I was always
[10:00]He's sort of interested in human rights issues,
[10:05]international affairs, like as a young child,
[10:08]I was involved in the movement to free Soviet Jews
[10:11]who were stuck under that authoritarian government
[10:15]couldn't practice their religion,
[10:16]weren't allowed to immigrate,
[10:17]and there was big movement here in the US
[10:19]to support them.
[10:21]And my family at one point traveled over to meet
[10:23]with some of those they were called refuse necks.
[10:25]And so I think that made a big impression on me.
[10:28]My parents were also from South Africa.
[10:30]They grew up in apartheid South Africa,
[10:32]and I had a lot of relatives in South Africa
[10:34]who would visit growing up.
[10:36]And my parents were not terribly political,
[10:38]but I think for me it was jarring,
[10:40]growing up in kind of liberal suburbs of New York,
[10:44]and then going to visit,
[10:45]what was still apartheid South Africa in the 1980s,
[10:49]and seeing segregated buses and beaches and water fountains,
[10:54]and trying to make sense of that.
[10:56]So actually after college was the beginning
[10:59]of it kind of opening up in South Africa.
[11:03]And I spent two years working in Johannesburg
[11:06]as part of an effort to combat political violence
[11:12]and the challenges during the transition.
[11:14]It was kind of working with all the different political parties,
[11:16]the police, the churches, the businesses, civics unions.
[11:20]And that was amazing and kind of really inspired,
[11:23]I would say, the rest of my career in human rights
[11:27]and international affairs, being part of that momentous
[11:31]transition and how it teetered on the precipice
[11:35]of erupting into explosive violence,
[11:39]but managed to push it through relatively peaceful.
[11:44]And just being very close to the action with that,
[11:47]which is just kind of the lack of being
[11:49]in the right place at the right time,
[11:52]I would say kind of kind of the fire
[11:54]that has sort of kept me going my whole career.
[11:56]Well, that's a very unique way.
[11:58]I mean, I remember in fifth grade,
[12:00]we all had these political prisoner
[12:02]way cause like racist, you know what I mean?
[12:04]They were like Connor and everybody had a name,
[12:07]and my guy's name was like David something or other,
[12:08]and I wore it around my wrist for like a year
[12:11]because it was such a big thing
[12:13]and not to say it's not a big,
[12:15]it was just the issue of the time.
[12:18]It was like captivating everybody's consciousness then.
[12:21]So for people who might not have lived through that.
[12:23]It was a great movement.
[12:24]I mean, they really did find those bracelets,
[12:26]I remember as well.
[12:27]They really did find ways to engage kids
[12:31]and people from all walks of life and make an act
[12:34]and I don't know if you ever did the marches
[12:36]that they would do down at the Avenue to Dog Homoshop
[12:40]Plaza at the UN, but those were really inspiring.
[12:43]It was the same feeling you have if you go out
[12:45]on the streets to protest.
[12:47]Today is part of the Women's March
[12:48]and the Black Lives Matter protests like that energy
[12:52]and you're all together and you're chanting
[12:55]and it's a huge release.
[12:56]So I think getting a little flavor of that for a kid,
[13:00]I think for some people and I think I'm one of them
[13:03]sort of ends up being something very powerful
[13:05]that you kind of are drawn to try to come back to
[13:09]at different points in your life.
[13:10]And as you sort of navigated through your career decisions,
[13:15]was there any one point that you feel like looking back
[13:19]led you to where you were?
[13:20]Like, is there anything any job you took
[13:23]or anything where you were having,
[13:24]I don't know, there were like two forks in the road
[13:26]and you went this way and that's how you ended up here
[13:28]and like how you ended up at a non-profit at this stage?
[13:32]Yeah, I mean, I sort of had a corporate career
[13:35]where I was at McKinsey and then Birdlesman Media
[13:39]and the Wall Street Journal and learned a lot.
[13:43]I really enjoyed and I still have friends and colleagues
[13:45]from each of those stages.
[13:48]So I've remained close with, but then there was a certain
[13:51]point where kind of in my head,
[13:53]I was doing that to gain skills that I thought I ultimately
[13:56]wanted to use in another arena
[13:59]and something that was more human rights
[14:01]or public service oriented.
[14:02]So there was kind of a turning point where I left
[14:07]the Wall Street Journal and went to Human Rights Watch
[14:10]and become the COO, which was really using my management skills,
[14:14]but that was kind of a breaking point to decide like,
[14:17]all right, if I'm saying this is why I've taken the time
[14:22]to be in the private sector and it's for another purpose,
[14:25]like I kind of need to make good on that
[14:27]because if I stay here too long, that might really fall away
[14:30]and I might end up with a very different career
[14:32]than what I thought I was embarking on.
[14:35]And how did your having kids fit into any of this?
[14:38]You know, I have two kids who are now teenagers.
[14:41]It's been amazing, but also challenging.
[14:45]I mean, when I had my son, I was actually fired
[14:49]when I was on maternity leave
[14:51]and it was a complete shock and really unsettling.
[14:56]I was very career-oriented and then, you know,
[14:58]suddenly there I was kind of back home.
[15:01]You know, I thought my maternity leave was gonna end
[15:03]after three months and it went on for why I had to find a new job.
[15:08]And so I kind of experienced firsthand these very real conflicts
[15:13]and it was just because I, you know,
[15:14]my boss was sort of forthright.
[15:16]He was like, well, you weren't here
[15:18]and so we reconfigured this and that, you know,
[15:20]and I said, well, would this have happened
[15:22]if I hadn't gone on maternity leave?
[15:23]He was like, oh, no, definitely not.
[15:25]You know, you're doing a great job.
[15:26]So that was quite eye-opening.
[15:29]And then I would say the other piece that was,
[15:33]you know, little unusual was during the first term
[15:35]the Obama administration.
[15:37]My kids were very young.
[15:38]My son was in kindergarten and my daughter
[15:41]had just started nursery school
[15:43]and I was offered a position I wanted to join the administration.
[15:47]I was hoping to be placed at the UN and New York,
[15:49]but instead I was offered a position in Washington.
[15:52]And so I commuted for a year when the kids were very little
[15:56]and that was very tough.
[15:58]I was constantly coming and going.
[16:01]It was a lot for my husband to deal with.
[16:03]We were very lucky that we had a great nanny.
[16:05]We also had a neighbor downstairs
[16:07]who conveniently was willing to be a helper
[16:10]in the early mornings to get the kids off to school,
[16:13]like seven a.m.
[16:15]So that was kind of miraculous.
[16:16]And then I did work like a day or two from New York
[16:20]at the end of the week,
[16:21]but it was a real high-wire act
[16:24]that I wouldn't necessarily recommend anyone do.
[16:26]But it was something that was very important to me.
[16:28]And then after that year,
[16:30]my husband got a fellowship in Washington.
[16:32]So the family moved to Washington.
[16:33]We spent a wonderful year there.
[16:35]So, you know, and that's, it's tough
[16:38]because the years when you're career-building sort of
[16:40]coincide very often with the years
[16:43]when your kids are young.
[16:44]And so there can be, you know, some real challenges
[16:50]and dilemmas.
[16:51]And I think a lot of women would not have ever contemplated
[16:55]commuting with kids so young.
[16:56]You know, I think we made it work, but it wasn't easy.
[16:59]Well, and you're ending up at Penn.
[17:02]Any of it have to do with your love of books?
[17:04]Do you love books?
[17:05]And if so, what do you love to read?
[17:07]I do.
[17:08]I mean, I'm a huge reader.
[17:10]I actually read mostly nonfiction.
[17:12]I like historical biography.
[17:15]I like to read about US foreign policy.
[17:18]I love diplomatic memoirs.
[17:21]And my husband is a historian.
[17:24]And so, you know, we have a constant plug.
[17:26]He reviews a lot of books.
[17:27]We have a constant plug of new books into the house.
[17:31]And so it's in that sense, it was very natural for me.
[17:34]I knew a lot of writers.
[17:36]I felt like I had some connection to their concerns
[17:40]and the debates that take place within the literary
[17:43]and intellectual community.
[17:45]And, you know, what I have really done is work with writers.
[17:49]And in my jobs, especially with our board,
[17:52]I work very closely with writers.
[17:54]And it's just been a great pleasure
[17:56]because there's just such interesting people.
[17:58]And I've been really fortunate with all of our board leadership
[18:03]that they've just been wonderful to work with.
[18:06]And so insightful and just fun.
[18:08]And every kind of lunch and meeting an encounter
[18:11]is, you know, a little bit sort of richer
[18:14]and more unpredictable than what you might have
[18:16]with somebody who is, you know, a human rights expert
[18:22]or a policy expert.
[18:23]So like what's on your, what are you gonna read tonight?
[18:25]Do you read before bed?
[18:27]Well, tonight, I mean, we're doing,
[18:29]we're talking the day before the election.
[18:32]So it may be a little hard to peel myself away from,
[18:36]I'm actually trying to get through
[18:39]Nick Lemon's article in The New Yorker
[18:41]about what's next for the Republican Party.
[18:43]Because I'm very curious about that.
[18:45]So that's what's on my, on my nightstand right now.
[18:48]Nice. Yes, this will come out later.
[18:50]But as we're recording, it's the day before the election.
[18:53]And I almost like can't even believe
[18:55]that we're finally here.
[18:57]Like I felt like it was never come.
[18:59]It was like, oh, we're only like 83 days away.
[19:02]Or is it like what?
[19:03]Now here we are.
[19:04]By the time this comes out,
[19:06]we will know a lot more about the future of this country.
[19:09]Perhaps or perhaps not.
[19:11]I mean, who knows, you know,
[19:12]he's saying sometimes drag on.
[19:13]So we'll see what happens.
[19:16]We'll see.
[19:17]So what's coming next for you?
[19:18]What are you looking forward to in this crazy time of life
[19:21]that we're all living through without planning being,
[19:24]you know, immediately accessible to us all.
[19:27]But yeah, look, I mean, for us,
[19:29]organizationally, it will be a significant pivot.
[19:33]No matter how the election comes out,
[19:35]having worked on free expression for many years.
[19:38]And then over the last four years,
[19:40]a kind of intensification of our work here in the US
[19:44]because of these divisions over campus, free speech,
[19:47]attacks on press freedom, this challenge to the truth.
[19:50]We've been doing a lot of work over the last few months
[19:53]on the rise in disinformation and how to inoculate people
[19:57]through disinformation defense.
[20:00]training and really spreading the word about what to anticipate with this election so that people are
[20:04]less vulnerable to conspiracy theories and so that's been a huge focus and all of that work will
[20:12]sort of continue in different ways but it's sort of figuring out what the new paradigm is going to
[20:19]be like and I feel very certain that the kind of challenges that have led up to the last four
[20:25]years and that we've lived through over the last four years do not evaporate no matter what
[20:30]happens tomorrow but I think some of the ways in which we need to engage you know must evolve
[20:36]we've done a lot of work at Penn America across the country and really mobilizing over the last four
[20:41]years recognizing it's just not enough to do this work in New York or Washington or Los Angeles
[20:48]so we have chapters in Detroit Dallas Austin Birmingham Greensboro North Carolina and I think
[20:58]talking with those people about kind of how we mend this fractured society how we can use the
[21:04]power of the written word a great literature the stature of writers to commence a process of
[21:11]coming together which I you know I'm hoping a lot of people feel that's necessary so that's
[21:16]going to be a big focus for us over the next few months you know and then there's just also the
[21:20]human level kind of getting through the pandemic I live in New York City and you know we live
[21:26]through this in a very tough way in the spring I know you've been very hard at personally and I
[21:32]think we're all you know we're tired of it but we're also extremely leery and really thinking
[21:40]through how we sustain ourselves and you know the human connections in particular I've sort of
[21:45]realized I'm an extrovert and I really miss seeing people so this has been hard for me and I
[21:50]need to probably come up with a plan for how to get through the winter you know the summer was a
[21:55]lot better with just ways of getting being together out of doors yeah I'm a little nervous about
[22:00]the winter coming and these first cold days that we've had are really worrying me you know
[22:07]no kid play dates and how do you take a walk and I don't know all these things that are either
[22:12]keys to my sanity so I guess we'll just have to say particularly here but yeah who knows lots of
[22:18]question marks yeah well I have to say I was so lucky to have been invited to the Penn Gala last
[22:24]year back when gallas were a thing and you know I was I felt like a kid in a candy store because
[22:32]everywhere you turned you were like bumping into amazing authors and I didn't even recognize
[22:37]I'm sure three quarters of them which is the crazy thing about authors is you can sit and read
[22:42]for days or weeks somebody's work and then like you know pass them crossing the street and not
[22:46]even realize but it was so amazing to just be in that environment and to have so many authors
[22:53]support and organization is really unique and amazing so I don't know and then you were so nice
[22:59]to let me co-host the Brit Bennett Penn America virtual authors night so I'm excited to do more
[23:04]of those and anyway Penn's just been the sort of nice bright light in all the darkness that we
[23:09]have these days that's nice to say and just you know we obviously can't do the huge
[23:14]Gala with all the binary of the natural history museum this year and you know it's sad because
[23:20]it's a it's a great party and it's a lot of people's favorite party of the year and so we
[23:25]really miss it we're doing a virtual version that will be in the beginning of December and we've
[23:30]got Patty Smith we've got actually Bono is coming not entirely public but I'll let you
[23:37]audience in on the secret and the hope that that news will be out by the time we just announced
[23:43]last week we're giving an award to Darnella Frazier who is the 17 year old girl who picked up
[23:49]herself on camera and recorded the murder of George Floyd and then posted it on her Facebook and
[23:56]you know the rest really is history but she performed that cattle of the Gact and we have an award
[24:01]that every year goes to recognize somebody's courage in the exercise of free expression and she
[24:08]just felt to us like a perfect recipient we're also giving that award we have two recipients this year
[24:13]the other is ambassador Marie Yvonne of it she was the U.S. ambassador to Ukraine who faced this kind
[24:19]of withering scorn from the White House when she spoke up about interference with U.S. policy on
[24:25]Ukraine so two very powerful women totally different but we're extremely excited to recognize them
[24:34]and Darnella in particular has not really spoken publicly about this so it's gonna be you know
[24:39]nonetheless a special event and I also invite your listeners to check out you did that wonderful
[24:45]event with Brett Bennett and we have many other authors evenings that are kind of these intimate
[24:50]small scale really interactive given takes it's not like your typical webinar when you know as an
[24:57]audience member you're just sort of in receive vote or maybe you're lucky enough to put a question
[25:01]in the chat now you can actually with our events have a bit of a dialogue with you know a famous author
[25:07]whoever maybe we had Bob Woodward you know we've got Susan Glasser and Peter Baker we're going to
[25:12]do one with Isabel Wilkerson so I encourage people to check out our website and join us for these
[25:18]events they're they're really kind of a balm for book lovers at this time when so many of the
[25:23]book parties and readings and things that we normally enjoy our off limits well if you need a moderator
[25:29]for Isabel Wilkerson if that's available let me know okay I'm kidding anyway well congratulations
[25:36]and your book dare to speak defending free speech for all this is really fantastic and I am
[25:44]wearing proudly red to match your cover today so thank you so much thank you the color
[25:48]coordination it's great to see you great to see election day happy winter arriving I feel
[25:54]for you I share the same feelings about the walks and the ways that we've stayed sane but we'll
[25:59]find some new ones it's going to work out we'll be okay that's a hot chocolate yes
[26:05]but we have the same we're attracted the same creature conference it sounds like exactly yes
[26:10]okay thanks a lot of fun thanks again to Farrity for being a sponsor today go to Farrity brand
[26:20]dot com slash zippy and get 25% off enter code zippy for 25% off these amazing comfy winter
[26:28]clothes and summer but for now winter and you will thank me thanks for listening to this episode of
[26:34]moms don't have time to read books don't forget to follow me on Instagram at zippy Owens and at
[26:39]moms don't have time to read books also sign up for my newsletter at zippyowens.com and sign
[26:44]up for my virtual book club and meet lots of authors on zoom every other week thanks so much to
[26:48]Steve and Ryan at texture sound for the sound editing and thank you to morning moon productions
[26:53]for providing this fantastic intro and now trim music