Isabel Wilkerson, CASTE
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[1:49]and pick up a few for yourself. Why not? Stop into the gift shop. Isabel Wilkerson, winner of the Pulitzer Prize,
[1:55]and the National Humanities Medal is the best-selling author of the critically acclaimed book,
[2:00]The Warmth of Other Sense, which won the National Book Critics Circle Award, and was named
[2:05]one of Time's 10 Best Nonfiction Books of the Decade. Her latest book, cast, became a number one
[2:11]New York Times bestseller, and was hailed as an instant American classic, and almost certainly
[2:17]the keynote nonfiction book of the American Century thus far. Wilkerson won the Pulitzer Prize for
[2:22]Future Writing in 1994 as Chicago Bureau Chief of the New York Times, making her the first black
[2:28]woman in American journalism to win a Pulitzer Prize. In 2016, President Barack Obama awarded her
[2:33]the National Humanities Medal for championing the stories of an unsung history. I hope you
[2:40]welcome to mom's don't have time to read books. Isabel Wilkerson, I'm so excited that you're here
[2:45]to talk about cast. Thank you for having me. You must be exhausted. You must be doing like a
[2:53]thousand interviews every day. You're on every list of recommended books everywhere. You're like,
[2:58]how are you holding up? Well, you just power through because, you know, this is what you have to do.
[3:04]I mean, you know, you don't, no one could have expected how this year would turn out. You know,
[3:08]you just simply could not have imagined the idea of putting, you know, working on something for so long
[3:13]and for so hard, and then to introduce it to the world in the midst of a global pandemic. It's just,
[3:20]you know, I just never could have imagined. And I want to always say, of course, that, you know,
[3:25]compared to people who are really experiencing challenges in this world at this time, this is,
[3:31]you know, this is so low in the total poll in terms of what I'm going through here at all. Like,
[3:35]it's just a whole, it's not in the same category of true suffering, but it does create challenges and
[3:42]it can be exhausting, but it's necessary. And I'm just glad that we have ways to be able to speak to
[3:48]people and to be able to communicate, you know, as I am here with you. I mean, what will we do
[3:53]without it? I don't know. We'd be like back in another century. You can dive back into some of your
[3:59]research and we can imagine that it would be like, well, I'm glad you're holding up enough to
[4:05]at least chitchat a little today, your book. But before I read it, my mother was like, this is the
[4:10]most amazing book you've ever, you'll ever read. And so when I know that I'm like, all right,
[4:15]I better sit down button up and then we have to have a whole talk about it. Obviously, everybody's
[4:20]mother and sibling and everyone has that read this book, which is amazing. Tell me about all the
[4:25]research at Tech to do this. How about the thousands of interviews from both this and the
[4:30]warmth of other sons? And also, like, what do you think makes a great interview? Like, how do you
[4:34]extract the information you need from other people? Those are really great questions. I mean,
[4:38]for one thing, the work that I do is call narrative nonfiction. So it combines what, you know,
[4:43]ideally would be the best of both worlds, meaning that you have to do a tremendous amount of
[4:48]research in order to find and to be able to determine and excavate truths that are verifiable
[4:57]fact that you, you know, that help explain some phenomenon. And then you translate that into a narrative
[5:04]in this, you know, using many of the tools that novel us with you so that the best of both worlds
[5:08]would be you're learning something you're exposed to phenomenon you otherwise would not know
[5:11]about. But it's told in such a way that, hopefully, it builds the spins. It's a page turner. It
[5:17]tells a story you get involved in the people. And so to do that takes a long time. And I said,
[5:22]I have sort of the gestational lifespan of an elephant. It takes a long time. I mean, the
[5:30]warmth of the suns took 15 years. You know, I said it if it were human being, it would be in high
[5:34]school and dating. That's how long it took me to work on that book. And then this one I got a little
[5:39]bit better. It took, you know, about eight years of germinating and distilling it and thinking
[5:45]about it. And in the course of that, it means that one project kind of leads into the other
[5:51]and this grew out of the warmth of the suns, which is where I started first using the word cast,
[5:56]you know, to describe, you know, the hierarchies built into our country going back to colonial
[6:02]times. And I use that word because it was it was the most comprehensive, accurate way to describe
[6:08]the world that a lot of us don't even know about, you know, it's a world in which, you know,
[6:12]that the world be the hierarchy of the American South for much of our country's history
[6:18]was so tightly delineated. It was this graded ranking of human value that went on until
[6:25]essentially the 1970s, you know, legally formally until the 1960s legislation, but then didn't
[6:32]take effect until the 1970s. So this is a world where it was against a lot for black people and white
[6:36]people to merely play checkers a government Birmingham. I mean, there was a, you know, white five
[6:42]people and all together separate black Bible to swear to tell the truth. And in court, you know,
[6:46]the very word of God was segregated in that era. And it could mean your very life if you
[6:52]breached any of the protocols and laws of that system. So that's what I was describing in the
[6:56]warmth of other sons. And that was the term I started to use casts. It was more evocative.
[7:03]It was more comprehensive. And it was language that anthropologists had studied the Jim Crow
[7:08]actually used as well. So the second book grew out of the first. And what started it was really
[7:14]what happened with Trayvon Martin, you know, where he was a teenager walking home from a convenience
[7:21]store and, you know, suburban subdivision in Florida where his very image, you know, what he
[7:28]looked like was viewed suspicious by someone who, you know, stopped and ultimately killed him.
[7:33]And, and so that was that actually occurred in an area, a part of Florida, that one of the people
[7:40]that I had, one of the protagonists from the warmth of the sons was from that same area. So it sparked
[7:45]my interest and attention from the very start. And I wrote an op-ed piece in the New York Times
[7:51]connecting cast to what had happened to him. And so that was really the beginning of my
[7:55]thinking that led to this book. And tell me a little bit about when you interview people,
[8:00]what you do to get them to open up. And what are some of the things you look for when you're
[8:04]when you're talking to somebody new? Like, what is that about for you? And what are some of the
[8:08]things that you've really taken away from, from people you've met all over the world?
[8:11]That's such a great question because I don't consider myself to do interviews really.
[8:17]The kind of work that I'm doing takes a lot of time. So I don't have often, so because I don't,
[8:23]I don't, I both don't have enough time. There's never enough time.
[8:28]Apropos of the title of your podcast. Nobody has any time for anything. But you know,
[8:33]there's a saying that there's this Cuban saying, I certainly believe it's Cuban. It's like,
[8:37]it says something along the lines of slow down, I'm in a hurry. I think that's an interesting
[8:42]way of thinking about life itself. And so because there's never enough time. And yet the work
[8:49]that I do takes time, I end up not, I end up, you know, allowing myself to the time to spend with
[8:58]people as opposed to, you know, Q&A because I'm not going to be able to learn what I need to learn
[9:06]if I have like a set of questions for the, for the work that I do because the work that I do
[9:12]is attempting to get deep into the heart and the minds of people into their motivations,
[9:17]into their thoughts, their dreams, their, you know, their triumphs and their tribulations,
[9:21]you know, what they've actually been through. And it's hard to even, to even formulate a single
[9:27]question that will elicit, elicit from someone, you know, your deepest dreams, thoughts, and
[9:35]motivations. So I have to spend time with people. So I generally do more closely what we would
[9:41]identify with anthropologists, which is participant observation, ethnography, spending time with them,
[9:48]getting to know them in a more relaxed and sort of hopefully in more holistic way. And it just
[9:54]takes a tremendous amount of time. It does. And I, before every one of the songs, for example, I ended
[10:00]you know, going to the places in order to find that the protagonist for that book,
[10:04]I had to, you know, go to the places where they would be. I went to, there were actually
[10:08]Baptist churches in Brooklyn where everyone was from South Carolina and there were Catholic
[10:14]churches in California where everyone was from Louisiana. Obviously, writing about the great
[10:18]migration of people who went from the South and then spread out to the rest of the country,
[10:22]following beautifully predictable streams. And so that's what I found in the process of that.
[10:27]And then once I got to, I interviewed for 1200 people for that, you know, basically a casting call,
[10:33]you know, as I can auditioning people for the role of being a protagonist in this book.
[10:37]And that's where I had a chance to meet many, many people. But for the most part, I just,
[10:43]you know, I just, in some ways, throw out prompts just to get people talking and to see where
[10:49]that leads and to allow them to talk whatever it is that can get them to feel comfortable in
[10:54]the talk as what I would do. In general, it means asking fewer questions than you might think.
[10:59]I mean, a lot of it is just, is responding to what they've said to keep the conversation going,
[11:05]to, you know, make it conversational, to sort of sit at their knee and to hear their experiences,
[11:12]to make it comfortable for them. Essentially, to tilt the soil, to make it receptive to whatever is
[11:20]pouring forth from them. You know, that's what, that's what this is all about. And it just takes a lot
[11:25]of time, it really does. And some of the people end up telling me things that they hadn't told
[11:30]their own children, because they had been through so much pain and trauma that they didn't want
[11:35]to, they didn't want to burn their children with that. I didn't want to revisit it.
[11:39]It was post-traumatic stress for a lot of the people who endured and suffered and survived
[11:44]and crow. So they were saying, telling me things that were very, very painful. So the most that I
[11:49]can do is be the very best listener that I can be the encouraging, empathetic, understanding,
[11:58]and to validate their experiences and their feelings. That's what my job is.
[12:03]And so once you have to absorb all of that stress and trauma and history and narrative that's
[12:09]very disturbing, how do you then walk away and have like a normal night? Do you know
[12:14]like how do you extract yourself from that intensity and deal with those emotions aside from
[12:20]obviously turning it into a best-selling narrative nonfiction book. But emotionally, like how do
[12:25]you, how do you toggle back and forth from that intimacy really?
[12:30]Well, one of the, I think there's probably one's individual constitution that makes the person
[12:36]more likely to be able to think long-term about something and that's how I am. I mean,
[12:42]these are huge projects that take a long time. And I go into it knowing that it's going to take
[12:49]a long time and I'm going to have to sit with it, live with it for a long time. So there's several
[12:54]answers that question. One of them is that I often focus in on people with whom I already have
[13:00]developed or feel that there's some kind of connection. There's some chemistry that makes me feel
[13:07]that I want to spend time with them and I want to spend time with me because this is a long haul
[13:13]journey here. I mean, this is really, you know, years in the making and so you have to feel that
[13:17]there's a connection that can power you through. So that's one of them. So you end up feeling
[13:22]in the case for the things that I do. I end up, you know, absorbing myself into what their
[13:29]lives have been. I mean, I have this, you know, I just, you know, can't think, I am by definition
[13:36]kind of an empath. I just am. So I absorb it. That's just who I am. And knowing that it's going to
[13:41]be for the long haul, it means that I have absorbed, you know, who they are into my being. They
[13:49]become part of me. And so I just live with it. They become part of me. All of the people that I
[13:54]write about on some level become part of me. And I don't view that as draining as much as enriching
[14:01]because I get to know these amazing, incredible people. And if I didn't, you know, find a
[14:06]kind of chemistry and love for them, then it would be harder for the reader to experience that as
[14:10]well. I mean, if I feel this love and connection to them, the reader will as well. I mean, I think
[14:15]the way, particularly the warmth of the suns has been received. The book has been out for 10 years
[14:20]and it was on the vessel as when it first came out. And it's back on the vessel again, you know,
[14:25]10 years later, it's incredible. And I think that that's because people can feel the connection,
[14:30]the love, the empathy, they can see themselves and the people. I say that narrative nonfiction is
[14:36]the closest that you get to being another person because we know that empathy can be elicited when
[14:41]we read novels, but non narrative nonfiction allows you to feel that same empathy for people who
[14:47]were real, who actually existed. And so what allows me to get through it is my sense of connection,
[14:54]compassion, and in fact, love and admiration for the people that I'm writing about. That does not
[14:59]mean that I'm writing about them, you know, as if they're perfect. I mean, they are, you know,
[15:03]you get to see them in their full humanity. It actually is a disservice to people, I think,
[15:09]to overly romanticize a person. I mean, I think that, you know, a full humanity means the range of
[15:15]emotions and experiences. And so that's what comes through. But that's one of the things that
[15:19]powers me through that gets me through the really difficult aspects. The other thing is that
[15:23]is ultimately the reader. I mean, I embark upon these projects, these massive research, you know,
[15:32]sort of immersion because I ultimately want to share this with readers. And so I'm thinking about
[15:38]the reader the whole time, you know, thinking about the reader and knowing that ultimately
[15:44]whatever it is that I'm having to experience, suffer, go through, will reach someone else.
[15:50]That's what inspires me. I, you know, that I love the definition that Tolstoy gives for art.
[15:57]He says that art is the transfer of emotion from one person to another. That's a beautiful
[16:05]concise description of art, the most beautiful that I've heard. And that is what this is. I mean,
[16:11]this is literally being the person in between the sender of emotion and experience and the
[16:18]receiver of that emotion and experience. The sender is a person who's being, you know, who's
[16:23]stories being told and the receiver is the reader who is now getting to learn and, you know,
[16:30]and immerse him or herself in someone else's story. And I am the, the intercessor. I'm the
[16:37]interpreter of that experience. And so that's what I'm thinking about too. And it's not complete
[16:42]until it gets out of me and out to the reader. And so that's what, that's what also inspires me
[16:50]and motivates me even through some of the really difficult parts of the work that I have to do.
[16:54]So when, how did this all get started? When you were young, did you, you referred to your
[16:59]constitution earlier? Were you always this empathetic like, give me a picture of you in like
[17:03]seventh grade or, you know, preschool? Like, were you always the one connecting everybody? And when
[17:09]did you know you wanted to embark on these like deep dives into other people's lives?
[17:13]Actually, like a lot of writers, I'm an introvert, probably an extreme introvert. So that means
[17:18]that I think a lot of writers are observers. They're people who were, who were always the quiet one,
[17:24]you know, with a book in hand, you know, that that child with the flashlight, you know,
[17:29]in bed with the flashlight under the covers reading a book. That was who I was and Am. And I,
[17:38]you know, so I was, I was feeling that connection through the stories that I was reading,
[17:43]growing up. I was also the person who was, you know, usually the quiet one on the sidelines,
[17:50]observing all the action that other people might have been in the midst of. That doesn't mean that
[17:54]there weren't times where I might have been, you know, involved. But generally speaking,
[17:57]I'm very content to be, you know, the one who's watching, observing, interpreting,
[18:04]you know, examining and thinking about what is going on around me. And the way that it comes out
[18:12]is through the writing that time comes out. Well, I think you can maybe put aside your flashlight.
[18:17]I think I think you've graduated to perhaps a lamp on your bedside table at this foot. What do you
[18:22]think? Are you still hiding? I was symbolically, of course, I long past that. But it's the idea
[18:30]of being really being able to lose yourself in, in a story. No, I'm kidding. I failed and I
[18:35]feel the same way. I also had a flashlight. I did, I literally I would like hide in my bathroom and
[18:40]read Charlotte's web. I was like, you know, yeah, I still now I'm like, my husband sleeps next to me
[18:46]and the light is on it. You know, I'm the same way. I, I, I, and I was also very quiet and observing
[18:51]as a kid. So I relate to everything you're saying and it's awesome. So in your book, you set
[18:57]out obviously all these different paradigms for analyzing societies, especially how we've gotten to
[19:03]where we are now and through the lens of both cultures in India and the Holocaust and all these
[19:10]other and Jim Crow South and everything as to why we are the way we are. And perhaps we should
[19:15]look at it differently. And I was just wondering, having gone through this complete analysis of
[19:20]our society as it stands today, like, how hopeful are you? Like, what would you tell kids who
[19:27]are growing up now in this environment, knowing what you know and all you've researched and everything,
[19:32]like what would your advice to them be? Like, do you feel optimistic about where we can go or not?
[19:40]Well, I wouldn't have written these books if I were not optimistic. It takes a lot of faith and
[19:46]optimism to embark on something that will take years to complete with no guarantee of how it's
[19:52]going to turn out, no guarantee of what the world will be like by the time it comes out. Like, will
[19:57]people even be interested by the time you finally
[20:00]finish this thing started. So it takes a lot of faith and optimism to even start down the path
[20:06]that each of these books began with. And so I wouldn't have written them if I weren't optimistic.
[20:11]Of course, one of the missions and purpose of these books is to help illuminate aspects
[20:18]of our country's history that we otherwise would not know so that we can, together, find ways
[20:25]to transcend these artificial barriers and boundaries that have been created long before
[20:31]any of us were, you know, before even our ancestors were thought of, because this is going back
[20:37]to the 17th century colonial America before there was the United States of America. So the goal
[20:43]of this is to shine a light on these aspects of this old house that we call America. And I use
[20:50]this analogy, this metaphor about our country being like an old house that we've all inherited.
[20:55]And none of us alive are the ones who built it, but it's our responsibility now that we are in
[21:00]this house. And so that's the purpose of all of this. A purpose is to somehow find a way to recognize
[21:07]what we have inherited, like to really look closely what we've inherited and hopes that we can
[21:12]make the improvements, make the repairs, the massive repairs that are necessary in order for it to
[21:19]be as strong as it needs to be. So that's where my hopefulness comes. And also people's response
[21:25]to what happened over the summer, you know, after George Floyd, there was a sense of alarm and
[21:31]outrage that needed to be, that was absolutely warranted and that many, many people, not just in our
[21:39]country, but around the world, felt and responded to. And a sense that this should not be happening
[21:45]in this country or any country, but especially not in our country given our creed and what we stand
[21:50]for. And it should not have to not be happening now. And I think that that's where I get a lot of
[21:55]hopefulness, the fact that people did respond, the fact that people did recognize how
[22:01]woeful and how tragic that this is happening in our current era.
[22:07]So this is probably none of my business, but when you are not being a Pulitzer Prize winning author
[22:13]and researcher and all the amazing things that you're doing to help the country, like, what do
[22:17]you do in your spare time? Like, what do you enjoy doing? What do you, how do you use time when
[22:22]you're not like at your desk or at your computer? Like, what's your, what are some of your things
[22:26]that take? Well, sadly, for a lot of the the last year or so, and especially with what's
[22:32]going that, going on now and COVID, you know, sadly, that is pretty much a lot that takes up a vast
[22:39]majority of my waking time because that's what the circumstances require. So it's almost like
[22:45]the question you're asking is almost like pre COVID. But, you know, so much of my time has spent
[22:51]just absolutely loving being able to travel and to see new and amazing cultures connecting in
[22:57]that way. That's, you know, massive, massively central to who I am. Obviously, I, you know, I love
[23:06]to, you know, spend, obviously spend time out in nature in any way that I can. And especially
[23:13]with, you know, just, you know, digging in the soil and, you know, like seeing what can,
[23:18]the art of what can happen when you plant something and have it to grow. You know, I'm such a
[23:25]tremendous, tremendous animal, animal lover, animal rights advocate. I mean, I just absolutely
[23:31]can't imagine life without having some kind of animal in one's life, you know, I'm a big,
[23:40]you know, dog lover. So, but I mean, I love all kinds of animals. So what I'm saying is there are many,
[23:45]many sources of joy in addition, of course, to family and friends and how what's really important
[23:51]in life. But, you know, the circumstances in which that we find ourselves now means that,
[23:57]you know, the world is the way that it is. And that's what's necessary right now. And it's been
[24:03]not for writers. It's not a difficult transition to the world that we're in now in terms of being
[24:09]interior, being still engaged with words and engaged with, you know, talking about words. That's
[24:15]very, very natural because that's what we do. So, you know, I was literally just saying yesterday
[24:21]that I couldn't, I have a black lab that I recently inherited from my mother-in-law who passed away.
[24:25]And I have, like, fallen in love with, and I was like, I can't believe that I have the capacity
[24:31]for this much love for an animal. Like, I, and every time I'm with her, I think you had how much
[24:35]I love her, I'm already thinking like, what am I going to do when she's not around? You know,
[24:39]it's just stupid, right? It's like, because you just know with people, you can fool yourself
[24:44]that they'll be around forever. But with animals, you can't, I mean, at least I found. COVID,
[24:48]you know, has been such a devastation to everyone and more and more particularly people who have
[24:54]actually have suffered from it directly and clearly. But there, you know, it's been going on for
[25:00]long enough that many things both good and bad and life also happened because it's been going on
[25:05]for so long. And one of the things that happened is that I did, I lost my beloved Westy, who was
[25:11]he and he'd made it to 17. And in the early months of COVID, he passed away was, you know,
[25:18]so it was one of the things to realize, you realize how they work their way into your heart in ways
[25:23]that you don't expect in ways that humans don't. I mean, you know, there it's a different kind of
[25:29]love, but you, you know, thereby your side, essentially living for you, like waiting for, you know,
[25:37]for every gesture coming from you, they literally exist for you. And you, they've become so much
[25:44]a part of your life that you don't even think about it until then along their bare. So there were
[25:49]two, we had two. And now there's one, but he made it to 17. And so I can't complain.
[25:56]Oh, I'm so sorry to hear that. Yeah. On the street yesterday, I was walking the dog and this older
[26:01]man came over and was just like, can I stop and pet the dogs? Of course, I'm like with my mask,
[26:05]like, all right, why is he coming? So it goes to me. But he's like, I lost my German Shepherd after,
[26:09]you know, 14 years. And it only has only been three weeks. And I just have to hug your dog. Anyway,
[26:14]my heart broke. But yeah, animal love. Anyway, okay, last question because I know you have to go
[26:19]soon. Do you have any advice for aspiring authors? You know, I don't have any thing that you haven't
[26:26]probably heard before. So I, you know, apologize in advance for not being it being any more insightful
[26:33]about this. You know, we're off until read, read, read, read good things, things that you admire
[26:39]and things that you that you can learn from because they're not what, you know, they're not as
[26:44]good as they could be. I would say also that, you know, there are people who say, you know, write
[26:50]every single day. And that is true. It's probably a great idea. I, however, believe that there are some
[26:58]of us who I actually do better when I am writing because I feel as if I am bursting with
[27:09]something that has to be on the page. Like where I cannot stop myself from having to write that
[27:14]I find to be more productive. This is not me that you don't write, you know, when you have to
[27:20]write and you're on the headline, of course, you write. But I find them that to me the most inspiring
[27:27]and inspired and effective writing comes from when I feel as if, oh my god, where's a piece of paper?
[27:33]I need to write this down right the second. Like I just, I just have to write this down before I
[27:38]lose it. So I want to be suggestion I would have is to always have pen and paper or whatever it is
[27:43]if you write in your device, have available. And if something hits you write it down, then do not assume
[27:50]that it will be there tomorrow or next week or next month. Like if something hits you, some
[27:55]revelation or some way of thinking about something, some ideas, some turn a phrase, write it down
[28:01]right then and there because it may not be there again. That's the, the mind works in mysterious
[28:05]ways and you need to capture while you can. So I always have something nearby that I can write on
[28:10]envelopes, what doesn't matter, whatever it is, always have something nearby. I would say to be kind
[28:17]to oneself when things are not coming as you wish them to be and know that if you've done it before
[28:23]you can do it again, it will come. And to give, you know, to be patient with yourself because
[28:28]I personally, as I said, don't believe in suffering and torturing yourself when it's not coming,
[28:34]when it's not working, I just don't feel that you should suffer. Of course, if you're on
[28:37]deadline, that's a different thing and you've got to get it done. But the most beautiful things that
[28:42]are more naturally, holistically emerging from your subconscious will come when you least expect
[28:48]it and be there to capture it. Also, in terms of being kind to oneself and patient with oneself
[28:54]is to realize that at all times when you're working on something, your subconscious is working all
[29:01]the time. It is constantly trying to make sense of what it knows has to come out of you.
[29:08]So to know that even when you're not in front of a screen or for people who there are many
[29:13]people who still do right and long hand, and I like combining both because I think that both
[29:18]whatever I write in long hand is usually going to be often the most powerful, meaningful,
[29:26]oddly enough, well constructed observation or passage. Generally, I don't know why that
[29:32]happens. Maybe there's some direct connection from the brain going through the neck and then
[29:36]through the arms and then to the hands. I don't know, maybe somebody has studied that, but that's
[29:41]what I find. And so to know that we are working even when we're not in front of the screen,
[29:48]the subconscious is constantly trying to make sense of it because it knows it has a job to do.
[29:54]It knows that it needs to get this thing written. It absolutely knows it, and it's working on it.
[30:00]we realize it or not and when it reveals itself to us and then when we sit down to ride,
[30:06]then it can all port forth. That's how I work. And that's what works for me.
[30:10]Well, maybe this can be your next book. How the brain and the hand interact and you can go around
[30:14]the country and talk to every writer. And I think that would be really cool, but I'm sure
[30:17]you have other ideas. But anyway, thank you so much for your time and for the fantastic
[30:23]contributions to literature and for the conversation. Thank you. I have a great day.
[30:27]Thank you. Okay, have a great day. You as well. Bye bye. Okay, bye.
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[31:02]Thanks so much to Steve and Ryan at Texture Sound for the Sound Editing. And thank you to
[31:06]Morning Moon Productions for providing this fantastic intro and now trim music.